I think Maxon is trying to get me to switch to Maya or XSI....

[mikeh64]

usually I would recommend buying the product that you like the best, not the one that will cost you a few hundred dollars less - choosing a 3D app is a long term commitment (learning, plugin investment, your library of files, etc.)

if you must consider cost as the most important part of your decision, remember, you won't be a student forever, so you should really choose your app based on cost of owning it as a professional

[Byla]

Hash (http://www.hash.com/) is even cheaper.:)

But have to admit, these student prices are pretty low (Maya and XSI). Lightwave, dont know, I have never considered Lightwave to be comparable to the other main player. Just my opinion, of course.

[Xtrude]

well, you won't get any flame from me... :)

I was talking to a rep out in our area yesterday, and... I also was alarmed by the price of the education bundle... wow

Thing is, the rep further explains... there have been so many that have exploited the educational packages, in that they were buying them even though they did not properly qualify, that Maxon was forced to up the cost, as well tighten the requirements...

Ok, I can sort of understand this... however, it was further suggested that only those in certain courses, as well those in high school would qualify, while those in elementry and jr high would not... well... thing is, we have one son in each of these levels of school, however it is our ten year old in elementry who is the 3d guy in our family... this little guy lives for 3d, and has been on Wings3d for about a year now, or almost, and is now ready to take the jump into C4D... he models well, utilizes loops very well, knows just how much to create in each subd level, and is totaly ready to get into a larger app inorder to take things to the next level... but he does not qualify.

well...

and even if some arrangement was to be made, I don't eally know if we could afford the cost at this time, nor do I know if the school could absorb the cost of getting C4D put on the machines in the school computer lab...

and then there is the small part about having to upgrade the machines at the schools, in order to make this all work well... I mean I doubt that g3 imac's would be any good for this eh...

so here we are as parents, trying hard to facilitate advanced education for our children, at as early age as possible, yet we are met with some bottom lines which are slightly beyond our meager means... very disheartening...

and to top it all off, it is stated in the charter of right's, that all children are to be given equal opportunity in education... and this just isn't so at all... hmmm

I kinda think that it would be great if Maxon, Apple, and schoolboards worldwide, would work more closely together, than ever before... that there could/should be, much more funding allocated for these educational tools, and, that there should be better provisions put into place inorder to ensure that any and all, gain access to the best educational tools possible.... and since it is well known that C4D is the most user friendy of the bunch, then I would suggest that indeed it would be a great fit into said institutions...

Perhaps the mechanisms to facilitate such have not yet been explored as well as could be the case... ;)

[WQP]

Maxon seems to be getting a bit more greedy i think - what really sucks is that if you buy the core (as I did) you are totally screwed if you ever want to expand. Literally it is cheaper to buy a whole new package than to upgrade your core! How messed up is that?

So I bought core, then BP1, then the 8.5 upgrade. Now say I want XL or even Studio - it's go out and buy it, with their special it's actually $200 cheaper to buy it...i mean come on, do the words "repeat business" mean anything to these people? So I ask about going just to BP2 - and they said they could knock of $20....WOOHOO!

Until this i've had nothing bad to say about Maxon - but damn they sure don't make it worth your while to stick around!

[flingster]

well this does seem strange...my advice is if you want cinema..call maxon and tell them you want it..but mayas educational is cheap...will they offer it to you for the same cost as the maya version...if you don't ask you don't get in life! if you do ask..all they can say is no..and what have you lost...nothing..but everything to gain.

whats seems incredible is the differences in price...they are big differences...and you would need to check license agreements i'll bet there is something in there...but you never know.

i agree its not just about price..but with pricing like that it seems maxon isn't interested in student licensing which seems a bit shortsighted...so unlikely....i'd check.:shrug:

or write to one of the top doggies at maxon and voice your concerns as a potential customer and see how they feel about loosing you to the competition...heh heh....maybe not fair...but reality.

[Erik Heyninck]

Educational versions are for people who are studying something for which this specific application may be useful.
I don't feel someone studying for cook, or following evening classes in philosophy should be given educational prices for, say, Photoshop, or Cinema. These people qualify for a free version like 6CE, or can use Wings.
Yet worse are people buying a license for a nephew who qualifies, but who isn't interested in the app at all, and the using the app for themselves.

The main reason for the modular approach is that people who don't need Mocca,TP, or S&T do not have to buy it. If you want to upgrade afterwards, it's logical you pay more.
Don't get me wrong: I do am in that situation. I do not qualify for any kind of discount so I purchased basic module (core) and Advanced renderer. I do miss Soft IK from time to time, but the bundle was (and is) beyond my budget. Yet I see no reason to complain as I don't feel Maxon is in any way mistreating me. People who did buy the bundle would be mistreated if others, like you and I, would be able to upgrade at the price they paid.
If you want it all, then pay for it all. If you can't: be happy there are modules.

[jorgevaldes]

I think getting in touch with maxon and telling them I'm interested in purchasing, but that their pricing is driving me to the competition is what I will do , see what happens...

About price not being everything, well for a college student paying for his own tuition, it is... even 20 bucks can be a big deal for me.
And about the cost of owning it as a proffesional... well atleast here in mexico usually the company you work for buys it so you don't have to consider that, and since its a perpetual licence I could still use it to fool around/train at home after I'm no longer a student.

that's what almost made me buy XSI, since it was the cheapest, but the fact that I have no experience with it and I do with Maya made me lean more towards Maya.

[Xtrude]

Yet worse are people buying a license for a nephew who qualifies, but who isn't interested in the app at all, and the using the app for themselves.

I totaly agree, and from the information I recieved from the rep, this was part to play in why things have really been tightened up...

And then along comes kids like my son, who is extremely keen on 3d, and ouch... we can't afford the cost, and nor can his school, or the rest of the schools in the district for that matter... and these kids are not in any cooking course (well they do have a home ec course ;) ) , rather they have a computer lab, with 30 puters and no 3d software... what a drag ):

oh, and btw, he learned to model with Wings3d, and is currently learning to texture with CE ;)

But heck yes, it would be nice to get something for the schools, as well as the students, whereby they could learn the most advanced tools avail... and of course, we parents would be right in there learning and participating as well... but... we would not be making any money while doing so eh... I mean you can suggest about the uncle part to this Erik, but I would also suggest here that should my son gain an educational budle you could be sure that I would be exploring the bundle with him... we learn from each other eh, I mean we are after all father and son, and we do many things together, 3d being one of those activitites we enjoy sharing together... the main part to that is however, that our son gains the best tools to learn with, at a cost we can afford to absorb... I may not ever become employable within the wonderful world of 3d, but gauging from my son's attitude and abilities with 3D thus far, I am fairly certain that he will make the most of it... :)

[mrblifil]

Umm.. I have my work folder at home. If you know your serial numbers from work, you can literally copy the entire Maxon folder heirarchy onto a DVD, take it home, drag it from the DVD to your hard drive, launch the program and enter the serial numbers. Now your home configuration will mirror your work configuration exactly.

I'm kind of confused why you want the student version if you have access to a fully licensed version already.

Kevin

[jorgevaldes]

that would be as legal as downloading a pirate copy.... and.. pirate copies don't come with printed manuals/install cds/support/etc

[Other3DMaster]

Maxon reps have always seemed to be very helpful to people when they have financial issues. They really do listen to their users and potential users. Also, my two cents, I work at a place that has seats of all the major apps, and always find myself using Cinema. And when it came time to buy a package for my home use, it was Cinema first and foremost. It's not always about getting the lowest price, but the best software. That said, I will say again that Maxon has a history of helping people out, students, starving artists, etc. (In other words, I can hang out at night and use any app under the sun for free at my place of employment, and it is Cinema that drew me in and still does). And even though I could hang out at work(despite the mrs. complaints of late hours), I shelled out my own money to use it at home. Not one regret.

[mrblifil]

No, that would be legal as placing the copy you own on another computer you happen to use. That's why the serial numbers work on different computers.

It would only be pirateing if your employer's policy says that's not OK. Maxon is certainly not going to sue business customers for allowing operators to use the license on whichever machine they can be productive on.

Or maybe I'm naïve!

Kevin

[MJV]

I'd say taking home company software is borderline at best, but the real defining issue is whether the software will be operating on more than one computer at any given time. If you're using the software at home and someone at work is using it too, then no, I don't think the vender would be happy about that. If you're using the software at home instead of using it at work, and nobody at work is using it simultaneously, then I think the vender would be understanding of it if not thrilled about it.

No, that would be legal as placing the copy you own on another computer you happen to use. That's why the serial numbers work on different computers.

It would only be pirateing if your employer's policy says that's not OK. Maxon is certainly not going to sue business customers for allowing operators to use the license on whichever machine they can be productive on.

Or maybe I'm naïve!

Kevin

[Cartesius]

Educational versions are for people who are studying something for which this specific application may be useful.
I don't feel someone studying for cook, or following evening classes in philosophy should be given educational prices for, say, Photoshop, or Cinema. These people qualify for a free version like 6CE, or can use Wings.Well, that would rule me out then. I'm a graduate student in history and my daily job has nothing to do with 3D, all my Cinema experiences comes from my free time at home. What you're saying is that if I didn't decide for a 3D career 10-15 years ago, I should be forced to use free software. I don't agree. Thanks to Maxon's educational licenses I've been able to discover an amazing world of 3D, a world that would have been beyond my financial situation otherwise.

/Anders

[Erik Heyninck]

I am a painter, a traditional artist if you want. I live for my art, and try to survive on what I can sell (I don't ever create something because of commercial reasons as commercialism and art are the worst ennemies) and some stupid jobs I do to pay the rent and food. I've been living like this since I left school many years ago.
I could have gotten a license on my nephew's name (studying architecture) and used Cinema as probably many others do, but this goes against my personal sense of honour and correctness. So I bought the basic module and advanced renderer, and it's difficult for me to resist a plug-in when a good one comes out. Those guys also try to survive. I do not use Cinema for any commercial reasons either.
I do not judge anyone for being different or having another point of view. But it's not because you discovered a fascinating new world that it's normal a commercial company should offer you special reduction. I would be extremely inspired when I were able to visit Banteay Srei, but no company is ever giving me reduction because i'm an artist. On the contrary: they prefer to see my heels to my toes.
Students have many advantages: they pay less taxes, don't have to pay for social security when they do some breadwinning job, have special restaurants, pay less for Internet connection (or have a connection at school),...no problem. One day, they'll pay it all back to mama-society.
If I were Maxon then no, you would not qualify for a student's license. The moment you enroll in evening classes on design, architecture, art,...then yes. Or the moment you would be using 3D later in your professional life to create models of, say, Etruskan or Viking objects (archaeology). Then yes.
This was a very difficult, even a bit a sad reply as I do appreciate your work/website a lot, really do! In fact: you should be made part of the beta-team and get a copy for free.

[Hiriqnu]

The real problem here is you are confusing the product line and not comparing apples to apples. The "Studio Bundle" that you reference from Maxon is inclusive of the XL Bundle, BodyPaint, Dynamics, Sketch & Toon and Net Unlimited. All of these products can be purchased seperately for $295 for students....so as you can see $800 for the bundle is a pretty ggod deal.

You prices you were quoting for competitive products would only be a fair comparison with our XL bundle alone....which again is $295....the lowest # you quoted of the bunch.

Just wanted to clarify that misinformation.

[Cartesius]

I do not judge anyone for being different or having another point of view. But it's not because you discovered a fascinating new world that it's normal a commercial company should offer you special reduction. I would be extremely inspired when I were able to visit Banteay Srei, but no company is ever giving me reduction because i'm an artist. On the contrary: they prefer to see my heels to my toes.I don't say it's normal behaviour for a company to offer educational licenses, but I do say I'm glad many of them are. Yes, I'm a student at a university in Sweden. Yes, I have many benefits but not as many as you described. I don't have a free Internet connection. There are no special restaurants for students that I know of. We don't have reduced prices on our text-books. Yes, I have a (huge) student-loan which I'm already paying back on a monthly basis. If I ever were to do a "breadwinning job" (haven't had one in my whole life, as far as I know) I would pay just as much taxes as anyone else.

If you were Maxon then I wouldn't qualify for an educational license just because I don't study any graphical arts in its widest sense. That's too bad, beacuse I like doing 3D and thanks to Maxon I sometimes think I'm getting pretty good at it. I don't plan on sticking to history once my dissertation is done (if it ever will be!) but rather squeeze myself out on the freelance market. Once that happens I will be off the educational program and into the realm of commercial licenses.

Now, according to you this scenario would never even be allowed in the first place. If I don't enroll in an evening class on design I'm not supposed to be using this software at all. I find that to be a bit short-sighted. Buying an educational license is a great way for students (all students - talent can be found even among those studying Roman Latin) to get their feet wet in 3D. Many will not continue using the software but some of us will - by educating ourselves, saving for upgrades and plugins, and eventually we will purchase a commercial license. When that happens I can - hopefully - even make some money on 3D, something I'm not allowed to using the educational license.

/Anders

[moka.studio]

The real problem here is you are confusing the product line and not comparing apples to apples. The "Studio Bundle" that you reference from Maxon is inclusive of the XL Bundle, BodyPaint, Dynamics, Sketch & Toon and Net Unlimited. All of these products can be purchased seperately for $295 for students....so as you can see $800 for the bundle is a pretty ggod deal.

You prices you were quoting for competitive products would only be a fair comparison with our XL bundle alone....which again is $295....the lowest # you quoted of the bunch. Actually I disagree.
Ok, there is no comparison to BP - it is top in what it does. However Xsi has a lot of tools that the C4d XL doesn't have... If it's the 8000$ version, it has for ex, a full node based compositor, cloth simulation etc....
Max has reactor, LW8 has its own dynamics engine, Maya of course as well, Xsi too....
I personaly find it quite steep to charge, it your last quote is correct, 3x as much for a student version of the Studio bundle, compared to the XL bundle.
jp

[Bucko]

I have Maya unlimited at work, never use it execpt firing it up to test if my plugin works (AI game programmer). At home I use my fully paid XL version of C4D to teach my kids how to model and to do illustrations for my roleplaying friends, does that qualify me as some kind of 3D app license hero or what ? ;)

[bobzilla]

I really don't want to get in the middle of this, but there are many things to consider other than the price and the actual features that are included.

I've never used Maya or XSI but I have watched quite a few tutorial movies and I've noticed lots of times to do a similar task in Cinema is SO much easier. The Object Manager in Cinema alone is worth getting it over the other two. With the click of a dot or a drop and drag or a few simple tags and you can turn on and off visibilty, rendering, symmetry, expressions, hypernurbs, etc. Those seem to me to take many steps in the other programs.

As difficult as it may be for some, Xpresso HAS to be much easier to use than MEL scripts or their XSI equivelents.

And I haven't even touched upon the "cool" features...

My 2 cents...

[alanmac]

Ownership of software, or to put it correctly the licence to use the software can be easily be distorted in ones mind to suit your own take or priority but its really quite clear what is the meaning of the licence agreement, one user, one active working copy, at any one time.

Back up copies are exactly that - a back up in case the original is damaged or lost.

You own the media the software is supplied on and a licence to use it, not the software itself. This goes for any program not just Maxon.

If software is licenced to a company as opposed to an individual any one individual employed within that company can use that one copy, installed on one machine.

Much the same in a domestic situation. I purchased my copy of Cinema 4D as an individual, I can use it, my daughter, or anybody else can use it but as it's only installed on one machine so no infringement of the licence is taking place. I can't use it while she does.

You may well have access and use of a company vehicle from work but that does not mean your children, even with a full driving licence are covered to drive that vehicle if you decide to bring it home.

Let's not fool around here, it's only peoples abuse of a well intentioned scheme by software manufacturers that push up the price or tighten the rules.

I was a little upset to see, after installing the free cover mount copy of Cinema 6CE, how feature rich it was for a "free program" but it was marketing on Maxon's part and that's business. Give the copy away and those serious about it will upgrade one day to the latest version. It's a policy all software companys adopt.

As pointed out students get a lot of benefits and if its related to the career path they are undetaking rightly so. Of course if they don't pursue that career then they keep the software.

They've lost more than they've gained. Keeping hold of a piece of software, which after time will outdated by better faster, more feature rich versions in no way compensates for the valuable years of life wasted whilst in education on a career not pursued.

I've noticed a large majority of users of Cinema are doing 3D as a hobby rather than as employment. Great to see, and excellent work done as well, better than some of the professionals, but my chosen hobbies does not get me special treatment or discount on goods or equipment because its a hobby, or related to my income.

I'll admit the school situation needs looking at to ensure a fair deal for all. Maybe like my copy of Vectorworks, using a dongle key could be one solution.

[flingster]

these companies don't offer educational licensing out of the goodness of there hearts...it to catch users early then when they go into industry they can use there packages and may even demand these packages for use...eg long term sales strategy in reality.
either you decide to compete or not thats the decision...for a student price is a major factor in their purchase decision as well as whether its in there curriculum.

i'd say offering a educational license at the right price is something maxon aspire to:
http://www.maxon.net/pages/contact/philosophy_e.html

dunno really...its not an area that affects me really...so i'm less worried by it that others bud i can understand some frustration on both sides of the fence...maxon annoyed by bending of the rules..and users at cost. hopefully both can come to a useful compromise.

[moka.studio]

I really don't want to get in the middle of this, but there are many things to consider other than the price and the actual features that are included.

I've never used Maya or XSI but I have watched quite a few tutorial movies and I've noticed lots of times to do a similar task in Cinema is SO much easier. The Object Manager in Cinema alone is worth getting it over the other two. With the click of a dot or a drop and drag or a few simple tags and you can turn on and off visibilty, rendering, symmetry, expressions, hypernurbs, etc. Those seem to me to take many steps in the other programs.

As difficult as it may be for some, Xpresso HAS to be much easier to use than MEL scripts or their XSI equivelents.

And I haven't even touched upon the "cool" features...

My 2 cents...
Sure, that is one of C4D's strongest points, ease of use. No denying it is a great piece of software, and my numero 1 choice. BUt, you have to admit that it is pretty tough justifying having to pay 2x as much for c4d studio bundle than you do for Xsi advanced, student versions... after all the full version of Xsi advanced is over twice as expensive as C4D's Studio bundle... this is based on what other people have quoted before, I have not checked the prices - I am not a student anymore.
I agree with what was said before though, a student version of a software should be seen ideally as a long term investment; there is more than just the price to look at. That said, the price does matter, especially for someone new to 3d who has little preference what app he uses ( though you should look at the specifics of the pricing for the dif. apps' student versions , as some might have quite a bit of restrictions. and also look at the price of the full app...)

[jkirk01]

This is my first post at CGT, so be nice if I seem to offend anyone. I have been doing systems stuff for 15 years and been in the graphics/3d hobby for 20. I remember when Apple was supplying highly discounted equipment to schools. The net effect of this marketing move was to create market share that would continue to purchase their equipment because that was what the students and staff had grown comfortable with. However, one major issue with Apple is that their hardware is proprietary and is, compared to WinTel solutions, much more expensive. I see the same thing with 3D apps.

I purchased a full version of Studio recently. I'm having a great time with it. For a long time I was using trueSpace. I started with the lower end teaser product at version 4.0 and kept upgrading through 6.6 and ProTeam. I added up all the money I spent over time to have a product that was very good in some areas, but has serious stability and interface issues, and was shocked. I had spent as much on an inferior product as I could have for Cinema in the first place. It was time for a change. I could have used my wife's status of being an educator to get the "discount" but decided not to since I could get a full commercial version of a complete 3D package for thousands less than say Maya, XSI, lightwave, etc.

I have a lot to learn and that is why I am here at CGTalk. My own experience is use the demos to see if you like the product, do some homework and decide on a package. Then if you are serious, buy the package at what ever level you like and support the development team. At least with Cinema I got the power and grace of a commercial professional 3D app for a lot less money than the competitors. Well worth the piece of mind that I can morally, ethically, and legally produce what ever I want to with the software.

[jorgevaldes]

The real problem here is you are confusing the product line and not comparing apples to apples. The "Studio Bundle" that you reference from Maxon is inclusive of the XL Bundle, BodyPaint, Dynamics, Sketch & Toon and Net Unlimited. All of these products can be purchased seperately for $295 for students....so as you can see $800 for the bundle is a pretty ggod deal.

You prices you were quoting for competitive products would only be a fair comparison with our XL bundle alone....which again is $295....the lowest # you quoted of the bunch.

Just wanted to clarify that misinformation.


the problem is that if i compare the XL bundle alone with

[jorgevaldes]

The real problem here is you are confusing the product line and not comparing apples to apples. The "Studio Bundle" that you reference from Maxon is inclusive of the XL Bundle, BodyPaint, Dynamics, Sketch & Toon and Net Unlimited. All of these products can be purchased seperately for $295 for students....so as you can see $800 for the bundle is a pretty ggod deal.

You prices you were quoting for competitive products would only be a fair comparison with our XL bundle alone....which again is $295....the lowest # you quoted of the bunch.

Just wanted to clarify that misinformation.


the problem is that if i compare the XL bundle alone with Maya Unlimited or XSI advanced, it's really not even a fair comparison. The studio bundle is what can go head to head with these, In my opinion....

About the student pricing being a long term investment... I agree 100%...

For example... when it's time for purchasing new software/upgrading the current one at tha company I work at, they'll ask me which to buy. Of course I'll get them to buy whatever software I have more experience with and have acces to my educationl copy and manuals to fool around and train at home.

In that case I won't consider If it costs 10x as more, as I'm not paying for it, the company is.

[alanmac]

Quote

"For example... when it's time for purchasing new software/upgrading the current one at tha company I work at, they'll ask me which to buy. Of course I'll get them to buy whatever software I have more experience with and have acces to my educationl copy and manuals to fool around and train at home."

I'm confused, you say you are a student yet you mention "the company you work at". Are you a student not earning a wage or a working employee? No offence but you don't sound like a student to me, but somebody who is working. Also they may not take your choice and go with somebody else's software choice.

Also you are taking it for granted you will only work at this one place and you'll not work with any other company using different software. Goes back to what's been said before, buy what you need for the long term future not the short financial gain.

Okay here is another situation. You get the firm to buy the software, you use it, then you decide to go freelance, working for yourself, then have to buy the software. Cost for full copies will matter then don't you think.

I'm not saying you should buy Cinema but don't just judge it on face value cost.

[jorgevaldes]

Quote

I'm confused, you say you are a student yet you mention "the company you work at". Are you a student not earning a wage or a working employee? No offence but you don't sound like a student to me, but somebody who is working. Also they may not take your choice and go with somebody else's software choice.


Does being a working employee automatically exclude me from also being a student? well of course not, I'm actually working to pay for my studies... I can't believe I'm the first person you've heard of that works and studies... not everyone has rich parents to pay for their university degrees.

[VagabondDead]

Sorry if I'm just a bit uneducated on the other software packages, but I don't quite understand the problem. The Studio version of Cinema just includes BodyPaint, Dynamics, Sketch & Toon and Net Unlimited on top of the XL version, right?

It makes perfect sense that BodyPaint wouldn't be included, as it's totally incomparable to the other packages. No student has a need for Net Unlimited (do they?!? man, if I could have afforded unlimited rendering boxes when I was a student...), and as far as I understand Sketch & Toon is pretty unique as well. I know there's a good NPR renderer for one of the other packages, but I didn't think it was included. So the only module really missing to make good comparisons is Dynamics, right? So maybe the argument could be made to get Dynamics added to the $295 educational package.

As for student pricing in general, I think it would be silly not to offer it. People not already strongly interested in 3D probably won't drop thousands of dollars on a 3D package. However, if there's a cheaper version available, they might. So even if it stops there, the company makes more money then it would have without the student version. However, sometimes those people will decide they want to incorporate 3d into the other things they're doing. That's what happened for me--I studied graphic design and, although my college had no 3d offerings, I picked up a copy of Cinema and liked it. When I graduated, I bought the commercial version. If I hadn't tried it as a student, I never would have purchased the commercial version, and Cinema would be lacking both my money from when I was a student, and my money now.

Some people just seem angry that they paid full price for software that other people don't have to pay full price for. Get off it. You can do whatever you want with that software. The students who plan on using it after graduation will have to pay just as much as you. The only thing I could see is students who buy it and decide not to use the software commercially after graduation, so stick with their educational version. Maybe you should be asking Maxon to put a 4 year time limit on educational versions? But again, those peoples' software will quickly become outdated and meaningless, and they will either want to upgrade it (and will pay full price), or they will discard 3d altogether.

Just my thoughts.
Josh

[alanmac]

[QUOTE=VagabondDead]

[Some people just seem angry that they paid full price for software that other people don't have to pay full price for.]

I hope you are not refering to me, as I 'm glad to see any student wishing to create a career in 3D encouraged by software companys in the form of student versions of software.

What I do object to is anybody, not just students, bending the rules to suit their own wants, then crying foul when the manufacturers wise up to what's happening and either tighten the rules or change them.

You make some very valid points with regard to the packages, what they include and what a student would need and I agree with you 100%.

It's been said before, don't just take what's on offer at face value, the package you will need costs a lot less by the sounds of it. As said, as a student why would you need things like net unlimited ?

I purchased the basic module, in fact that was the deciding factor to get Cinema for me, I could buy just the parts that I required to do the job, with the option to add if need be later. I thought this was a great idea, still do. Brought Bodypaint, which was on special offer and am very tempted by Sketch and Toon.

Of course I've heard of students working to cover their costs in study, I myself had to work evening, weekends and holidays to keep myself at school when I was sixteen through to eighteen years of age, but never got the chance to go on to university or art school.

Again we get to the problem of rule bending. Somebody working full time but taking part time classes is not eligible in my opinion, even if it is as part of their job. If that's the case the boss should be buying it for you along with the training cost !!

Want to try the software but not pay for it fine, Maxon will give you a free demo copy.

[brammelo]

Sorry to (dis)agree, but the starter of this thread is indeed comparing apples and oranges. Cinema 4D is a tool that serves a goal, namely producing animations. There are other tools like XSI, Maya or Max that serve exactly the same purpose. Each of these tools, however, is geared towards a certain part of the CGI spectrum.

What you a doing is making the sum of the respective feature lists, compare that to the price of that feature list, and conclude which one is actually the best buy for your buck. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Not once was it mentioned what the applications you are considering were meant to do. Do they have to be used for Character animation? Do you need advanced texturing and UV-editing? Is it the quality of the render engine? Ease of use? Speed? Special FX?

First decide what it is you want to do with the package. Then check which one suits you the best. Then check the price. Comparing Maya Unlimited to a full blown XSI and a complete LightWave or C4D Studio Bundle doesn't mean squat if you want good NFR possibilities, because neither of those offer decent NFR capabilities.

Kind regards,
BaRa

[lllab]

alanmac,


in a lot of countries, it is very common that you study while working.
i myself worked as an professional architect full time in an architecture office, while still studying architecture(took some time;-).

thr same thing is with graphic designers and so on.

thats quite usual in austria at least.

if you are a student you get the studentversion as long as you donnot use it commercially its ok. a student version cost 99 euros here, a very good deal to learn the software.

maxon even gave me rabatt when i later bought the full studiobundle.

lllab

[alanmac]

lllab

If you were working as a professional architect but studying your not classed as a full time student in my opinion, sorry. You've got a wage coming in and a job, like serving as an apprentice. I assume you were being paid to work as a professional architect?

People in this country also study whilst working.

If it's a program to be used in your work then it should be provided by the company you work for along with any training or training cost required.

You could argue that this is to increase your qualifications but I could say the same.

I worked for many years using drawing board, pens and magic markers to create my designs and visuals. As time went on clients wanted computer generated visuals, working drawings. So to increase my qualifications ( to keep earning a living more to the point) I had to learn CAD and other associated computer programs.

Because I was learning these but working full time as a professional would I be classed as a student, I think not. Discounts, special schemes, no way. Some tax relief maybe.

What work would you be doing on your program, surely related to your projects or even at your place of work, so this in my book breaks the clear rule "not for commercial use."

I'm not getting at you, possibly the people you work for. You will after all be a more valuable and worthwhile member of staff with these increased capabilities but they may see it as you'll train and then get a better job elsewhere. If its for the work you do then the company should supply it.

Students go to college, university in this country and the programs for the course are supplied on the computers, some will even buy alternatives if they are convinced of the value of these within the course structure. Students can get student versions of the software to continue their course work and studies at home.

When you work either in your holidays, evenings, weekends or work experience at a commercial office/studio or at your first job position the equipment is supplied for you. If you are earning money from design etc at home using the programs during your holidays, evenings, weekends etc. freelance then its commercial use.

You can't have your cake and eat it.

[lllab]

alanmac:

first you are not maxon, this is only your opinion if i deserved it or not, ok?

second, the company i worked for then has full seats of all software they use( at that time i used maya formz, 3dmax, acad at work not c4d.

third sure i got paid, but thats not the point. i did use c4d for my projects at univercity, and i loved it so much that i bought it when i opened my own firm.

and i think this is what maxon wants - to gain new users. i converted to cinema and i bought the studiobundle.

so at the end both are happy, (only you seem to be angry ;-)

cheers

llan
stefan

ps. student prizes are not social wellfare form software companies but the get new users.

[alanmac]

lllab

As you can see from my last email and as always stated, its my opinion. This is a forum, part of which is for discussion, which you or I put forward our opinions, experiences etc. which in turn may result in others agreeing or disagreeing. No offence intended, none taken.

This thread has taken a slight sideways track on the ethics of what qualifies as a student/educational entitlment. Brammelo got it right and back on track in his post with regard to asking the capabilities needed for the job etc. in answering the original posts comments about pricing.

Where do you get the idea I'm angry about this, fed up maybe, of people complaining about not being able to get software cheap.

The whole point of subsidised software is as you say, to get people using it , then upgrade as you and I did to full licence copies, not for people to scheme up a way of getting software on the cheap.

Like I said, I'm not having a go at you just stating my opinion on how I see it and see no reason to change that opinion.

Thank goodness nasty old me is not in charge of the licencing department at good old Maxon ;~)

All the best

[lllab]

alanmac,

is ok, peace ;-)

lllab

[flingster]

wow guys, good to you see not getting out of hand but sticking to strong held opinions.

there are a few issues here which don't help in the discussion and help cloud the issue..

what is a reasonable price for an educational license?
what the competition prices there software at?
comparisions of versions available for competing software?
who should qualify for educational licenses?
company ethics & personal ethics and abuse of current systems?
student user needs?
all these in there own right warrant discussion in singularity.

i would say no one condones software licensing abuse....so you have to assume poster are not doing so or advocating this in anyway...give people the benefit of the doubt...this is after all a professional forum.

On this note maybe it would be better whether we answer the question of the thread in a more focussed way:
"I think Maxon is trying to get me to switch to Maya or XSI.... "

financially it makes more sense for him to jump ship...

my answer:
i don't think Maxon would want you jump ship
i assume Maxon want students learning c4d
But its not purely a financial decision when buying any 3d software or even a wordprocessor.
contact maxon and see if they feel your pain is my advice...if not...and you consider financial decision your bottom line...then jump ship...or re-evaluate your initial reason for switching.

cheers...keep the peace...one love...

[thorn3d]

Why don't you just download the free Maya PLA or XSI Learning Edition and save $800?

I can't see why anyone would pay $800 for a student license when the above two products are completely free.

thorn

[MJV]

Why don't you just download the free Maya PLA or XSI Learning Edition and save $800?

I can't see why anyone would pay $800 for a student license when the above two products are completely free.

thorn
If I was a student I'd buy XSI for what, $300? How could anyone pass that up?

[brammelo]

If I was a student I'd buy XSI for what, $300? How could anyone pass that up?
For doing what exactly? It all depends on the kind of education you're following. Education is fine, but it shouldn't be about learning a program, it should be about learning a craft (or something along that line at least). Asking yourself which program to pick based on the price tag is asking the wrong question. Price is important once you defined the boundaries of what your tool of choice should actually do.

Cheers,
BaRa

[alanmac]

Spot one Brammelo.

With so many mentions of XSI just lately I took a look at the web site, my first impression great stuff, if your into or choosing a career in animation I would have said, although I'm sure it's very capable in other areas. Looks a brilliant if not complex program.

It's not about how much you pay as the first and only choice for buying software. Getting the right tools as well as the best ones to do the job.

What's best for the work you wish to do is the starting point, what's used in the industry of your choice as one day you'll be looking for a job or moving on from the one you have. Make the shortlist taking everything into account and then go for it.

We all know that no one program does everything, whatever area you choose to work in.

Because its cheap is no yardstick by which to make any decision involving your future career.

Relate it to when you are qualified. Does the future employer choose you because you show skill, knowledge and talent or the other guy (or girl) because okay they are not as good but they're cheaper. Best tools, best people.

So what do you want to do with the program jorgevaldes ?

Oh, and good luck with whatever you choose. Hope all goes well and you enjoy your chosen career.

[MJV]

"For doing what exactly?"

For doing 3D

"It all depends on the kind of education you're following. Education is fine, but it shouldn't be about learning a program, it should be about learning a craft (or something along that line at least)."

Correct. Well actually, education is mostly about learning how to learn, but anyway... Any decent 3D app should be sufficient for learning the craft of 3D, and if it's popular in your target industry and cheep to boot, then all the better. I can't believe the money young people have nowadays that they can casually throw $800 or more at software, or, for that matter, buy a glorified walkman for $400.

I personally choose to use Cinema because a) I'm a professional and have to use the software that works best for me, and b) because I can afford to. Just the same I don't go around sneezing at $500 and I don't see how any student could justify spending $800 on Cinema when XSI is available $300.

[VagabondDead]

and I don't see how any student could justify spending $800 on Cinema when XSI is available $300.

Yeah, I'd spend $295 on Cinema and save the $5 for a couple beers after class (or dinner).

Although, I'll stop defending Cinema and be honest. Given the chance to do it again, I'd just use the Maya PLE for free.

Actually, I think Maxon could come to a nice middle-ground. Offer the XL Bundle student version as it stands, but tighten the requirements, and at the same time offer a free PLE-style version of the core model for a broader range of qualified non-commercial users. That would still help them pick up new customers who otherwise wouldn't be using the software, and also help protect the costs of the larger package.

Even the Maya PLE is way too complicated for someone who just downloads it because they're curious about 3d, but don't know anything about it. Cinema4d however is so easy to use, that the average web surfer could at least figure out enough to get more of an interest. At the same time, the average web surfer isn't going to spend any money just to "see what it's all about." So if that person d/ls Maya PLE, maybe they'll never touch 3d again. If they d/l a free version of the Cinema core program, maybe they'll love it and later buy the studio bundle!

[Fre]

@ School (SAE Rotterdam) we can buy the educational version of Cinena 4d 8.5 XL (full bundle) for 225 €, no upgrades ...

Maybe Maxon has a special price for schools who use Maxon software.

[manfriday]

call maxon and tell them you are going to buy a software package.
tell them you saw maya unlimited for 700 and ask them if they can match the price, otherwise you will buy maya.

they matched a price for me when I bought the XL bundle. Maybe they will do that same for you, or maybe they wont. I have found that waving money in front of someone and saying "im either gonna give this to you or that guy" works pretty well.

[anobrin]

Sorry to (dis)agree, but the starter of this thread is indeed comparing apples and oranges. Cinema 4D is a tool that serves a goal, namely producing animations.
Kind regards,
BaRa



Well..... animations that dont involve characters
:rolleyes:

[jorgevaldes]

Wow! didn't imagine this thread would become so large... really good opinions, and input going on here.
Spot one Brammelo.
So what do you want to do with the program jorgevaldes ?
Well, I plan on using it for what I've been using Cinema now... everything except character animation.. that means lots of particle effects, lots of dynamics, and lots of flying logos (wich C4d kicks ass at)
I love to play around with particles/dynamics and it pays off to know how to use them fully for when I am asked to do effects for tv commercials and music videos we do at the company I work for. And right now all the fooling around and experience I have with those is from past proyects and after hours at the office.
Oh, and good luck with whatever you choose. Hope all goes well and you enjoy your chosen career.

Thanks!

BTW this is an exaple of what we do.... click here (http://www.themaestrosonline.com/master.html)
this commerical is done 99.9% in C4D, only the water in the pool was done with Maya.
All shots were rendered out in multiple passes and comped in Shake.
this is an unfinished version, the final version had some composite corrections and the fridge with the cokes was re-rendered to correct the color of the cokes and some other stuff.
be warned it takes a long time to load, even with broadband, as its full frame with low compression.

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