Pros - can I have your honest opinion?

[chikega]

Hi michaelb,

I agree with your feelings on LW and the "bolted-on" feeling about it. As most people know, most of the new tools were available as free plugins before being acquired by NT. Much of it was never truly "integrated" but "slapped-on". But, that doesn't bother me as much as having prepaid a year in advance ... I digress.

In my humble opinion, messiah's architecture feels more modern and integrated. It's such a breath of fresh air to be working with an app that feels so *zippy* - it's got speed in spades. There's real-time dynamics, being able to layer multiple effects, simple but powerful expressions, etc...

My feeling is that pmG has laid down the ground work for a very comprehensive 3d app. It's still growing but it can only get better because of the solid foundation that's there. For now, I don't think you can go wrong by continuing to use both LW and messiah together as do most users on this list. As messiah's momentum continues, you can slowly ween yourself off of LW if need be. Or continue to use both for their strengths. Presently there are some things that LW can do that messiah can't and vice versa. I use both for now. It's true that messiah has a small but close community of users - but that's part of the charm. How many 3d companies are there in which you can interact directly with the developers? If you have a suggestion, they will listen. You can directly help shape the future of a software app. Lyle and the pmG team are very committed to the success of messiah. When they become a big successful 3d juggernaut, I just hope they'll remember us little guys that helped out in the beginning. :)

[dobermunk]

messiah's core doesn't have the baggage of history. That's an advantage. It still needs to get rounded off in scope and some interface elements, but I feel inspired when using it. Expect great things once the community expands and folk like Thomas H. get additional shading packages developed.

[SergO]

I have to pretty much agree with all that was said about LW and messiah. However LW for the time being will remain in my arsenal for the things that it is still good at, or that Messiah completely lacks, volumetrics and fur/hair being a couple of them. I hope they (Newtek) still pull through... after all competition is a good thing for the end users ;)

cheers

Serg

btw, like me before I started using messiah, you are refereing to its Displacement feature as "Subpixel displacement" ... see this thread ;) http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=158159

[michaelb]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. It always helps to get another perspective on things. Anyone else care to chime in?

[ThomasHelzle]

Ok, I don't start talking about [LW]8, I simply don't see a long term perspective at NewTek anymore after the last two years.
Other than that, LW 7.5c or even [8] is still cool in my opinion for everything messiah is missing in the render and simulation department (for now), but (character-) animation wise, messiah is years ahead of LW.
I personally look forward to maybe move over to XSI and drop LW completely within the next year. It is the easiest "big tool" to learn from a LW/messiah background and the shaderflow is quite similar for instance.
Hopefully a messiah plugin for XSI will be released or maybe Mark Wilson will put it on the list of supported apps of his PointOvenPro :drool:

But everything is in flux as far as 3D is concerned - let's see what Siggraph will bring :)

[SergO]

Yeah, XSI was on my shortlist too... I found it really easy to learn, yet retaining the flexibility that a modern architecture allows. In leap of faith when Studio2 came out, I decided to give it a go (reduced risk involved by buying a 2nd hand copy), in the hope that it would evolve to great things, or as an interim solution till something else comes out.

But even with XSI, you will still miss a lot of LW's feafures.
Although LW is put together with scotch tape and bluetack, some indidual bits are really cool. I've heard it being compared with a vehicle out of the Madmax movies... a lot of it is really handy, but dont expect it to hold together if you want it all (or even a little most of the time) firing at the same time.

Serg

[michaelb]

I've heard good things about XSI too, but it's WAY out of my price range. :sad: I know it's hard to give a direct answer to my question, because nobody can predict exactly what will be the best apps to be using 5 years in the future. I can pretty much make LightWave do what I want for now, but in my mind I have to seriously question staying with it long term. I'm looking for smooth workflow that I can master and get good results from for a very long time. I think I might have found it in Messiah, but it's hard to decide. I don't think my $500 upgrade to LW8 was a total waste, but I'm sure wishing the new stuff would have worked like it was supposed to. I can't just plunk down another $500 for Studio without having some kind of reassurance that it won't just happen all over again. I used to be able to spend money more freely, but I'm leaving my present job soon (it drives me crazy!!!) and money might get kind of tight later.
Thank you for your valuable comments. I know in the end I will have to decide for myself, but I appreciate hearing from all of you as well.

[PaulNewman]

OK - deep breath - here goes . . . I also run LW[7.5c]. I've been doing pro 3D for 9 years now and have used a number of various tools. Up to a few weeks ago I researched current 3D tools for my move to feature charatcer animation. I downloaded demo versions and tested them. I also studied company track record, where they are now, how they have been moving along in the past 1 or 2 years, their tech support, what are many people saying about them (bearing in mind that many of those who are happy don't always say so online).

Remember that my focus here is character stuff and physical based things like cloth, hair, soft- and hardbody dynamics, liquids, lighting, and excellent rendering. It may sound like I really need an advanced all-in-one solution like Maya Unlimited or XSI's top package (can't recall the name right now). Truth is most 3D apps who nowadays want to be seen as worthy need good character tools, good dynamics, some solution for cloth and hair, some kind of SDK/script language, and a good production renderer (or support for a 3rd party renderer). Of course I'm generalizing here.

Lightwave didn't have that stuff until relatively recently and now they have and now they're swimming with the big fishes. Same goes for Cinema4D. Maya and softimage had those things long ago. Max is kind of inbetween. Everyone's been playing catch-up. But now we see what I call "new generation software" appearing, lightweight apps which specialize and really perform well. Reknowned studios are relying on these very same $100 - $1000 apps for high profile film projects. Personally I like what I see. Now for relatively little I can get Silo3D, ZBrush and Rhino and have a heavy modeling arsenal, and each of those really does their job well. The same is happening with renderers and with character rigging and animation apps, of which messiah is one. You no longer have to throw your money into one basket. What I like about m:Studio is that it's animation component is one of those new generation packages tightly integrated with new generation rendering. It is true that m:Studio does have a way to go. What messiah probably needs before everyone in the industry really takes big notice is well integrated cloth and hair/fur (and perhaps one or two other key features).

If I can see these things from the sidelines, then surely pmG also knows these things and they are probably working steadily according to a list of key priorities to get their product to that point. They know the industry will shine a spotlight on them once they get their software fully featured enough and used in enough key projects. But until then, I get the feeling they are maintaining a kind of a low profile, readying their product, spending intimate time with their individual users and some studios who are basing a part of their pipeline on messiah.

So with these observations (and a sprinkling of gut feel and good faith) I've decided go with m:Studio. I've done it because I can use it right now and I believe that a year or two from now I'll be able to rely on messiah as the core element in my production pipeline. And if pmG takes a bit longer (as often happens in a quest for perfection), then they've already given us interfaces to the other proven apps. I just personally like what they have created and if they continue to keep their wits about them and keep listening to their users' needs, then they have an excellent product with a very good foundation which they can steer wherever the industry demands (within the bounds of their vision of course).

Another thing is that 3rd parties usually start developing plugs for a product if the product has a sound and open architecture, if there's a growing user base, and the product starts gaining reknown for its use in a few high profile projects (these are just my observations). Once the 3rd party developers start supporting m:Studio big time, then suddenly the messiah landscape will also change for the better. But the key thing is that pmG spends these first years in developing an excellent platform - which as I understand, they have done. I personally believe we should start seeing some of this happening over the next year - just my feeling.

But it's not all just investing into the future. messiah is production ready right now. The degree to which messiah will increasingly form a part of a pipeline should change in the future.

At the end of the day it is a personal / subjective choice and based very much on trial and error of what works for you in your situation and time frame. My project's time frame gives me another year or so before I have to really start considering hair and cloth and final rendering. What's pmG going to come up with during that time? What 3rd parties will be supporting messiah a year from now? For that matter, what can I (and you guys) contribute towards messiah during the next year?

[chikega]

Have you thought about maybe just upgrading to m:a 5 for $249? There's more than enough new features to keep you busy until your financial situation changes. And, of course, everything you learn will carry over to m:s 3.0. You've already invested a chunk-a-change in LW8 - so, that should last you through LW 8.x. Just an idea. :)

Speaking of XSI, I would highly recommend the book "experience XSI 4 (http://www.courseptr.com/ptr_detail.cfm?group=Animation&isbn=1%2D59200%2D210%2D2)". Even though I don't have XSI - it's very inspirational and every page is full color with lots of pretty pictures. A lot of the concepts can be applied to messiah. Well worth the asking price. :thumbsup:

[tjnyc]

I am not sure messiah really needs cloth or hair/fur for the industry to take considerable notice.
What is really missing IMO, is support for a format like FBX. This would give it a better chance at being intregrated into an existing pipeline. Things like Rigid body dynamics would be easier to intregrate using bone driven animation than PLA for example. While the potential for messiah to add in these features looks good, what is needed now and the forseeable future is a means for better intregrate with existing tools, so we can do things with our cloth and hair/fur proven tools.


Cheers,

[tjnyc]

Speaking of XSI, I would highly recommend the book "experience XSI 4 (http://www.courseptr.com/ptr_detail.cfm?group=Animation&isbn=1%2D59200%2D210%2D2)". Even though I don't have XSI - it's very inspirational and every page is full color with lots of pretty pictures. A lot of the concepts can be applied to messiah. Well worth the asking price. :thumbsup:I agree, I got the book as soon as it came out, since I am getting back into XSI, and it is definitely a worthy book to have with great info for anyone using any app, but particularly XSI.


Cheers,

[PaulNewman]

I am not sure messiah really needs cloth or hair/fur for the industry to take considerable notice.
What is really missing IMO, is support for a format like FBX. This would give it a better chance at being intregrated into an existing pipeline. Things like Rigid body dynamics would be easier to intregrate using bone driven animation than PLA for example. While the potential for messiah to add in these features looks good, what is needed now and the forseeable future is a means for better intregrate with existing tools, so we can do things with our cloth and hair/fur proven tools.Cheers, I believe that this is true for m:Animate and, on the short term, your statement is also true for m:Studio. My focus was only m:Studio which appears to be edging towards eventually competing with the big 3D packages, and would therefore require some integrated cloth and hair and stuff. On the short term, integration and 3rd party support would go a long way to giving messiah acceptance.

With m:Studio having its own renderer, it only stands to reason that at some point (and here I'm not saying it is THE most vital next must-have) hair, particles and other render effect goodies should be addressed. What's the use of having a renderer if you still have to render via Max or whatever just so you can have hair or other special effects? I see these things as issues for m:Studio. m:Animate caters for a different niche.

[Wegg]

What is wrong with Studio's current particle system? And my tests with Random cloner on "hair" have been very very encouraging. I'm pretty damn sure I'm using Studio for everything from now on. Now we even have the beginnings of real darktree support! Yay!

[PaulNewman]

What is wrong with Studio's current particle system? And my tests with Random cloner on "hair" have been very very encouraging. I'm pretty damn sure I'm using Studio for everything from now on. Now we even have the beginnings of real darktree support! Yay!
So post your results and let's get m:Studio finally declared "a full 3D pipeline in a box!"

Seriously though, remember that I've also made the move to messiah, so I'm not bashing messiah, but I'm also not overlooking what still needs attention. I'm just trying to be as objective as possible, hilighting some realities and possibilities - all from my point of view of course. I'd certainly like m:Animate and m:Studio to be the best it can be.

[Wegg]

I did. A while ago over in the Renders topic. Messiah rendered a TON of blades in no time. We went on to do dynamic tests that all worked just fine. I can "comb" it with weight maps, even uv the instanced objects for things like. . . feathers or scales etc. When Super Blender 2 comes out I'll even be able to drive the morph of each instance with an effector! Now THAT will rule. It is a "brute force" solution but a valid solution none the less.

[PaulNewman]

Excellent Wegg! Sorry for my ignorance. I certainly look forward to testing these things in messiah myself. I'm sure that working with messiah should open up my understanding a lot more. At this point I'm going with what has been learned from various online sources pieced together with my own 3D experience. If I find that m:Studio is much more capable than everyone has been letting on, then I'll blame pmG for undermarketing their product.

[Wegg]

Then I'll blame pmG for undermarketing their product.
You should take that understating or undermarketing as a MAJOR plus to using Messiah. I believe the results from people using this new version are going to advertize the product more than any mass market campain ever could. Most package go on and on about the number of features they have printed on the side of the box. . . "world class" "Industry leaders" blah blah blah. Most of these features end up being so horribly bolted on, un-intuative, flaky or "custom code" intensive that they soon become a source of resentment to that package's user base. I don't think you will ever get that with pmG. What Messiah lists as a feature. . . WORKS. And if it doesn't you only have to speak up and Lyle is all over you like a friggen rash trying to figure out how it doesn't. Autorig was a bit of an exception there. But generally that is the rule.

[ThomasHelzle]

Wegg:
where does all that exitement come from suddenly? <LOL>

I think Paul is right. I am far from bashing messiah - I just love it more every day - but let's stay serious:
Particles & softbodys are _far_ from even being comparable with LWs.

From the very old Siggraph 2000 list, "Develop" and volumetrics are still missing, Expressions still can't be renamed by search and replace ("Left" to "Right") - you name it.
(What would I have given for develop - doing all those interfaces for "AoN" by hand was quite a pain :) )

I am confident that these things will be bolted down, but if I had to choose one package today, I still would point at LW as the far more complete solution.
No way around that.
That is why I hope that pmG with the new addition of Taron with his deep view into real productions will make it happen soon enough for us all.

This is said with the deepest respect for what pmG has done so far :bowdown:

[Wegg]

I'm the damn Moderator here! I wouldn't be if I weren't just a LITTLE bit excited about pmG's products. ;)

There was a post with some particle tests from Messiah a few days back. Seemed to work just fine. A car flipping over or something. I'd probably just composit in Hypervoxels if I needed a particle shot done but. . . I kinda doubt I will for quite a while. We don't generally get "FX" type work here.

And didn't that dude's zombie have a volumetric light beaming from above? Or are you thinking of some other volumetric. . .

I have never written an expression in 12 years of doing this so. . . I'll have to take your word on those features not being in place.

[ThomasHelzle]

LOL :bounce:

There are even the most basic features missing from particles. Using them with a mesh -> no velocity.
No random age, no size over lifetime, no "insert common particle feature here"... :-)
Rendering them is possible in the form of A.) Objects (handling realistic counts of objects for particles by hand takes ages and they "plop" on and off) B.) Sprites (The same image on every object, no way to size it but fixed internal size) C.) Metablobs (Machine freeze or Crash here, no size....)

The guy you refer to _tried_ to use messiah particles but then _did_ it in LW with hypervoxels if I remember correctly.

I was refering more to something like hypervoxels with volumetrics.
The volumetric light is very nice (although not very fast), but it's a "all or nothing" setting for the entire scene. Either all lights have volumetrics or none. Very hard to do a complete scene with that.

As much as I love the renderer - it is only about 60% completed yet.

It depends mostly on the production if it will fit.

[chikega]

... that *dude*?, that *dude*? Wegg, Billy ... it's Gary ... we're on the same beta team! :)

[Wegg]

Gah. . .

Everyone should just use their damn own names in here. Or at least variations on em. This isn't Quake. . .

What the hell is a chikega anyway!?!

:edit: Oh. . . twist on your last name. Ok. . . your cool again.

[PaulNewman]

I'm starting to like this messiah family :love:

[ThomasHelzle]

>LOL< Yes, me too :cool: ... feels like home ...

I dropped all my remaining online nicknames lately because I'm really sick of finding out after months who everyone is - lead by example :-)

Sorry Chikega, in your case it was my old brain that goes more and more in the direction of a sieve.
I am happy if I can remember my own name every morning >LOL<

BTW. The shaders are done, now I'm sitting here, writing some nice AoN:docs for you guys, although I don't have much hope to be as entertaining as Fred... :)
I may be finished before siggraph if everything goes right! :bounce:

[michaelb]

Now this is the kind of insight I was hoping for when I started the thread. Paul, you made some very valid points in your message. I had noticed the general trend away from "do-it-all" applications toward lower cost specialty ones, and I have to say I'm happier with the specialty apps that really excel than the ones that can just barely do it. (Just enough to make the feature list.:rolleyes: ) I believe Messiah is very focused, and all in all, might be a better long term fit for me. Gary, you mentioned the $250 upgrade to Animate. I had considered that, but I read that Studio had graphic tablet support this time around. Does anyone know if Animate has it too? I hadn't read anything to indicate it has, and I can't use the mouse for very long before my wrist starts hurting. If Animate had that and user-definable menu and control keys, I think getting an Animate upgrade would be a good middle ground for my situation. The $500 upgrade to Studio is not out of reach for me, it's just that I don't wanna let go of the $$$.:)
From the sounds of it, I guess I'd never have to worry about lack of community involvement here either. At least it would never get boring. :) Thanks for sharing, everyone.

[Wegg]

Animate has EVERYTHING Studio has minus the render tab. So if Studio has Tablet support. . . you can bet your bootie Animate does.

[AlexK]

What is wrong with Studio's current particle system?
Well, as Thomas said particles are far from being of real use right now. pmG at least give us some size controllers in the next maintenance patch, please. It can't be too hard to change one hard coded value to a custom or random one, can it?
And my tests with Random cloner on "hair" have been very very encouraging.
...
A while ago over in the Renders topic. Messiah rendered a TON of blades in no time. We went on to do dynamic tests that all worked just fine. I can "comb" it with weight maps, even uv the instanced objects for things like. . . feathers or scales etc.
Can you point me in the right direction here, can't find the thread. Or is it all about Lightwave plugins? Well, this is another thing that bothers me a bit.
How about my situation. I will finish my studies next month. From that point on I try to work with some friend of mine in our own company. We decided to use Messiah as it is in our price range and it look fantistic for what it does. Now try to build a pipeline with Messiah: Studio and let's say Silo as the modeling part (also because it rocks and is in the price range). I don't have any hair or particles I can render. Period. If I have to use Lightwave's Random Cloner or any other plugin from another software that's 1.5-2.5 times as much as my main application (not counting the fact that the plugin also cost bit) it is just not an option. Well, how can anyone using this way tell me that Messiah is a full blown app anyway? It lacks in certain areas and all ways around the holes in the pipeline lead to full blown apps that cost at least the same or more as Messiah.
If I depend on those solutions (hair, cloth, etc.) I wouldn't go the Messiah way right now. Because you have to spend way more money. You have to buy Messiah and the other software and maybe even the plugin for the other software. You could strike Messaih out of the equation and save 600-1000 bucks and invest in another seat of the other full-blown app.
Sorry if that sounds a bit frustrated, but you know I don't want to bash Messiah, right? I own it and I love it. It just drives me crazy that everytime you search for a solution someone says "Oh, no problem, just load it into Lightwave and apply the blabla plugin to it and then switch back to Messiah!". It's just like I didn't buy a standalone app that going to be the backbone in my pipeline, but a nice Lightwave plugin. :banghead:

[ThomasHelzle]

Marvin, just relax... :bowdown: Oooooooommmmmmm :)

This is the usual situation in whichever level of 3D you are working and that is why bigger studios have at least one seat of almost every package.
For example: Some time ago, some companys used Lightwave for modelling, Maya for animation and then LW again for texturing and rendering - quite an odd workflow but worked for them. That may now be history since Maya has finally a renderer built in (just joking LOL) but the point is, there is stuff missing in every package and you will always reach a point where you need something that is not in your main app. But that doesn't make your main app bad.

If you would try to work with LW only, you would go sick when animating characters or writing expressions very soon (having worked with messiah before, that is). If character animation is your main thing, messiah is the way to go. If it would be mainly motion capture, MotionBuilder may be better, for FX work, maybe Houdini?...

"Full blown app" is a "Zero Information" in the end. It describes a paradise where everything you will ever need is in one software (and that software is still fast, cheap and easy to learn in 21 days :) ).
That doesn't exist.
There are apps nearer to that (but not for cheap) and others more far away, but that's it.
Lightwave is on the market for very long and was always the "Swiss Army Knife" for smaller companys who wanted to do it all, but with a smaller budget and accepted some working around obstacles for that (and a lot of people invested more into plugins as LW costs alone).
At the same time, it had some cool innovations long before the "big guys": HDRI, SubdivisionSurfaces, Endomorphs.... you name it.
That is where the current anger comes from IMO: LW [8] has nothing new in this league, but some different colors in the interface, 3rd pary plugins integrated, some stuff improved but is still badly integrated internally and stuff doesn't work together... but most of all, there is nothing "cooool" :)

Messiah is still at the beginning of the road in some areas. While it is top for character animation, version 2.0 is the first release where the renderer is fully working, is quite fast and has network rendering etc. Did you ever read about XSI 1.0 or even 2.0? - prepare for some good laughs....They started to leave ground around version 3.0 I think. And even with XSI 4, the renderflow in messiah is more powerfull in some aspects, since every node can have several outputs (instead of one), you can plug several connections into one input (XSI needs a merger node)...

I know your anger just too well, you will always ask yourself if you made the right decission.

I dropped Cinema 4D in 1999 and switched to LW which brought me to the project:messiah plugin shortly afterwards and later to messiah:studio. I don't regret that the slightest.
Now it may be time to move on from LW to something else. But I learned a lot in cinema 4D (I wrote my first shaders for version 5 in "C.O.F.F.E.E", their scripting langugage) and even more in LW and messiah (which I will definitely keep :-) )
So take one step at a time. If you have jobs where you need some external tools, you may be able to buy them into the arsenal, one by one. Define what you need now and invest in that. You can't do everything on day 1.
If you come fresh from scool (german filmschool?) where they have everything and all, you will be frustrated for a while. But if you are able to find the beauty in reduction, it can be fun.
I remember when Final Fantasy came out, they said in an interview that 20% of their money was spent on the main characters hair. At that time, I had just bought "Shave and a Haircut" for 99.- $... Shit happens :)

OK, I will stop now - all the best to you guys...

CU :wavey:

[PaulNewman]

If I depend on those solutions (hair, cloth, etc.) I wouldn't go the Messiah way right now. Because you have to spend way more money. You have to buy Messiah and the other software and maybe even the plugin for the other software. You could strike Messaih out of the equation and save 600-1000 bucks and invest in another seat of the other full-blown app. Going with messiah now helps me focus on what needs doing now - character rigging and animation. But then why go with m:Studio and not m:Animate? m:Studio can render my work without the need to plug into LW. And chances are that m:Render will be suitable as a production renderer (with free network rendering). Cloth can already be solved (messiah softbodies perhaps) by export / import to other apps like LW or Maya.

It just drives me crazy that everytime you search for a solution someone says "Oh, no problem, just load it into Lightwave and apply the blabla plugin to it and then switch back to Messiah!". Yes, I know, your point exactly.

I do feel that if a production problem needs solving right now and if the project warrants it, spend the money, even if it is Maya and Syflex just for cloth simulation. It's no good to always try to go as low cost as absolutely possible. Here in South Africa our unfavorable exchange rate to the USdollar makes software purchases crazy to say the least and our economy doesn't pay me enough to easily make up the shortfall. So yes, cost is important, but depending on the project, shouldn't be the primary consideration, especially if you're earning money with it.

Personally, it would be nice to hear pmG say more about where they are taking messiah and even what features they are planning down the line. It would make supporting pmG / messiah much easier early on. However, by doing that they're possibly setting themselves up for creating the dreaded vaporware which many critical people would have a field day with - to the great detriment of pmG. So they are wise to just talk about what they have and what works. Having said this, Splutterfish's Brazil comes to mind. On their website they have a development roadmap (http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/sf_gen_page.php3?printer=1&page=sf_roadmap) laying out their vision of where they are taking Brazil but with no time frames attached. Everyone understands where they are working towards, yet do not quite know when or what the next release will bring. Most people wait patiently, and at least know what they are waiting for.

[AlexK]

Yep, GFS (THE GERMAN FILM SCHOOL) it is. :D I don't know you by accident, do I?
As you already guessed, I had a chance to test everything out there (Softimage and XSI (from 2.0 on, so I know what you are talking about), Maya 3-6, Lightwave7.5, Max) and I am the first person to switch between apps to do a better job.
Hell, I am know at the master of little tools over there!
I was just the Lightwave thing that bugs me. Sorry. It sometime really comes across more as a Lightwave plugin then a standalone app. And my point (besides letting of some steam) was simply, that Messiah lacks certain features (or 3rd party plugins) to be considered a full production ready package. And I am aware, that we are at the beginning here, so I am sure that there will be solutions. I just hope they appear in 2 years or something. Half a year sounds much better to me. :D

[AlexK]

I do feel that if a production problem needs solving right now and if the project warrants it, spend the money, even if it is Maya and Syflex just for cloth simulation. It's no good to always try to go as low cost as absolutely possible.
Yes, you are right. My post was of course biased by my situation and by michaelb's initial statement about the price range. For big(ger) studios and also for the right project it is totally ok to buy additional software. I'm not denying that at all. It is always a juggling between money and requirements.

Personally, it would be nice to hear pmG say more about where they are taking messiah and even what features they are planning down the line. It would make supporting pmG / messiah much easier early on.
...Having said this, Splutterfish's Brazil comes to mind. On their website they have a development roadmap (http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/sf_gen_page.php3?printer=1&page=sf_roadmap) laying out their vision of where they are taking Brazil but with no time frames attached. Everyone understands where they are working towards, yet do not quite know when or what the next release will bring. Most people wait patiently, and at least know what they are waiting for.
That would indeed be nice.

[ThomasHelzle]

I don't know if you know me :p
I live in Berlin, so it is quite possible...

You may know that already: project:messiah WAS a Lightwave plugin before it evolved into a standalone app (must have been the most huge plugin ever). You can still feel it and that is why so many users use it with LW. The connection to LW also seems to be the most stable one.
This old time relation will get thinner when messiah evolves, but for now, it doesn't hurt to have LW available for everything messiah is missing :-)

CU

[AlexK]

This old time relation will get thinner when messiah evolves, but for now, it doesn't hurt to have LW available for everything messiah is missing :-)
GNARF!!! He said it again! :banghead:













Just kidding. :p

[PaulNewman]

You should take that understating or undermarketing as a MAJOR plus to using Messiah. I believe the results from people using this new version are going to advertize the product more than any mass market campain ever could.
I fully agree with this and I'm just as excited to see what others are going to do with messiah as I am to do something amazing. I also agree that a mass marketing campaign is not required, rather let pmG put their money into the goods and let the product prove itself. However, someone (like myself) out on the web researching the best tool for their pipeline or personal 3D toolkit may find too little information about messiah :

- The GUI interface and the design paradigms behind it (button design, speed, logical flow, who designed the GUI, etc.)

- The workflow in a nutshell with a couple of screenshot walk through's
(the videos are nice but sometimes too specialized on a specific feature for what I'm proposing here)

- Screenshots of the shader flows and a quickie about how that works (not videos, just a quick link to a webpage with a bit of text).

- Summarized info on how to connect to other apps perhaps with screenshots of the messiah plug inside those apps (or whatever) - even if it doesn't look like much, it builds confidence to see it and grasp it.

- Taron's on the team, so where is his write up on the pmG website?

- Support happens via people other than these few core guys. Who are they? Names, functions? This may help me visualize an admin and support team other than just a core programming team.

- Photos of those involved? OK, so maybe this could make them feel uncomfortable?

- A write up of where pmG sees messiah in the industry (nothing future related) with a differentiation between m:Animate and m:Studio.

- Where is messiah headed? Vision? Hopes? Dreams?

- Market needs which pmG sees messiah will address in the future. These things are no secret. Your competitors are doing it anyway. And for most of it your users can see it too except they don't know that you see it and plan to do something about it. Plus you don't have to say HOW you want to do it, just that you see yourselves doing it.

- New artwork on the pmG website to show things are developing / changing / happening.

- New stuff in the video gallery with the old stuff at the bottom of the page?

- What production facilities are actively using messiah in their pipelines? Perhaps NDA's may prevent this information from being posted. But more info on how messiah is working for them, perhaps a small testimonial and a pipeline diagram (text or image). People researching messiah want to see solutions - success stories. That's word-of-mouth, even if the stories are on the pmG site. Or how about a Sticky CGTalk thread about "messiah success stories" or "m:Studio in my/our production pipeline" and "m:Animate in my/our production pipeline"? That would be less biased.

Look, maybe this stuff is there and I missed (some of) it. If I did miss it, then perhaps that also says something about how available this info is to a potential messiah user looking for the inside info. I'm a pretty thorough researcher. It takes weeks to stick around and read forums to obtain a more clear picture of a product. By that time many other people may have moved on. Trouble is that a forum is also many times used for discussing bugs and problems and the view may be negatively slanted. Of course the pmG guys being on the forum helps tremendously, but you get what I'm saying?

Perhaps there's not enough time/resources by those immediately involved to realy help with posting this information on the pmG website. How about involving some of these nice messiah users on this forum? If you love it so much, prepare a little info + screenshots + render to show other people how m:Studio is more than just a $1,000 toy for you. Have a central online depository (pmG or CGTalk) with nice menus categorizing these little docs, easy for others to find. Once I'm using messiah extensively, then I'll be pleased to contribute in this way.

Perhaps someone should do an online indepth article on pmG + messiah, the people involved, etc. Perhaps a centralized WIP article with an interview each week about another of the pmG guys, another feature, hints about the future, any 3rd party activity, etc. Such an article (or series of articles) can also easily be a CGTalk sticky thread with various authors (messiah users / CGTalk members) contributing.

[AlexK]

The man has some good ideas. :thumbsup:

[ThomasHelzle]

Hi Paul,

yes, undermarketing can also be a problem :-)
Your points are very valid and some of it is often asked for.
pmG is simply to busy to do that stuff.

One thing I did last year was inspiring the build of http://www.zoogono.com (seems to be down today?) One user found that cool name ("animate" in greek :) ) Max Glick alias FBTurbine did the supercool work on the database behind it and hosts it on his own server. We both are trying to keep it updated as time permits and stuff is happening, but the community doesn't use it much. After some initial amount of plugins, the development is very slow now and there aren't too much messiah news to report.
My explanation for that is, that messiah has two kinds of users currently: 1.) amateurs/beginners who like it but aren't deep enough into the matters to make really cool stuff. 2.) Pro's who work with it every day but know it anyway, have their inhouse tools and don't have time to do tutorials etc. Also they often can't show what they do or how they do it.
If you have seen what John Riggs and Passion Pictures are able to squeeze out of messiah, your jaw will drop to the floor. Maybe John will start making Tutorials again - he mentioned something like that on the rigging thread lately.

I wrote several big articles for the largest german CG magazine "Digital Production" over the years (about new releases and character rigging: http://www.screen-dream.de/digital_production.htm), but the interest in germany is small, when I offered them an article about the latest 2.0 release recently they were not interested anymore. If it's not Maya, Max, XSI, forget it :(

So it is a bit of a deadlock - to get more users, more material is needed, but to make more material, more users have to work with it and buy the stuff.
Take for instance my shader plugins - I don't think I will earn much from it, since there are not enough users really using the renderer. So I did it mostly for myself and hope to sell at least some so I can keep it updated. But which larger 3rd party would invest in the messiah market? A hair plugin for instance is a _massive_ thing to implement...

What I really would recommend to anyone who is serious about messiah is all the Joe Cosman tutorials. My girlfriend showed me some of the animation stuff lately and I don't think I have evers seen something done with so much love and Zen as those animations ... :bowdown:

BTW: If anyone can contribute to Zoogono - please do so! Send us all the good stuff or upload it after making an user account (now possible!) in the apropriate area. Max said he would be happy to host whatever tutorial/setups/materials/etc. people wil come up with.

[PaulNewman]

Hi Thomas,

It seems that you've contributed quite a bit to messiah. Well done! I certainly hope you get some reasonable return on your shaders. Your insight into messiah user demographics is quite illuminating. However, those few souls who are willing to contribute should not stop. Sometimes a nice thing (advanced technique, etc.) is shared here on CGTalk and it would take just a little extra effort to make a simple HTML thingy with text and images to illustrate it. Then upload to zoogono or pmG and have it all centralized for those who wish to learn more. Just wait until I get up and running with m:Studio. I'd be glad to help get something going. I'm just waiting for m:Studio 1.5 used version sale to be concluded, then ship package from Atlanta to South Africa, then upgrade to m:Studio 2.0.

In my mind, contributing to messiah in this way is vital to help create a better product for my own use by having others catch on, buy it and join the family.

And even if the guys at the pro studios are too busy, how about if someone who knows them actually just interviews them? Get an opinion. A shred of insight. A glimpse of how they use messiah, a screen shot and an animation test. That shouldn't be too much time off their schedule (since someone else is asking the questions and compiling the document) and it's to their benefit also if more users join messiah. Tutorials obviously require more time, but a similar approach can work, with someone else doing the writing and formatting after gleaning the technique from Mr Bigshot Animator working at BigTime Studios Inc., testing it, and then reporting on it. Such knowledge should spark new interest even amongst existing messiah users.

[chikega]

Paul, you're the idea man.

Here's a post I made in the messiah:studio 2.0 thread May of this year:

Originally posted by lmilton
For those who are wondering what happened to Taron, he's swamped with a production project. He's using messiah:studio for the entire project, of course, so there should be some great stuff to see from him in the future.

When he's freed up again, he'll be back here to show some renders from other projects and provide feedback.

-lyle
It would be so inspirational to see how messiah was used in CafeFx's production pipeline. I know there are NDA's in place during production, but, there are so many things they have done in the past with messiah that we never hear of.

I'm just wondering because you see all these other companies showing off production work. Eyeon (http://www.eyeonline.com/Web/EyeonWeb/default.aspx) is a great example - they seem to showcase feature film work on a consistent basis and how Digital Fusion was instrumental in their success? Why can't pmG do the same - it would be in pmG's best interest to show that messiah is actually used in film projects. What do you think, Lyle?

We need to get the boys from Passion Pictures and CafeFX to show off some of their goods.

Edit:The boys at Passion Pictures and Asylum 3d recently strutted their stuff with Cat Woman. CafeFX, it's your turn now! Taron, Grzegorz, Akira.

[ThomasHelzle]

Chikega:
I don't know if you realize that Taron is a full time member of pmGs development team now and no longer working at CafeFX AFAIK :)
Good for us, bad for them...

Paul:
I wouldn't call it "demographics", just a personal impression. And this may be soon to change with everybody digging the new release...

[PaulNewman]

Thanks Gary. Perhaps pmG could dig up some stuff. I'd be willing to help compile HTML stuff with a bit of artwork and nice layout. Or point us to some people who'd be willing to go on record with a messiah testimonal. Can't wait for Taron's stuff to come through. How about Jimmy Neutron? That was messiah, right? Jimmy Neutron TV series - using messiah? Lots of hard grit production stuff there. Or is it all locked away behind NDA's? :sad: As for me, I need to learn advanced character stuff and my research and tests and trials are sure to take me far and wide. Since it's my own production I can share more. And what's the big deal in applying a technique to another shelved character model not gagged by NDA's and sharing? NDA's are there mainly to prevent content leaking out, not tips, techniques and testimonials! I could be wrong. And what about one or two production stills or animation tests leaking out? Helps generate word-of-mouth buzz! :drool: Even just seeing screenshots of rigs, and all sorts of scene anatomy to illustrate a point shouldn't be in violation of NDA's.

Who knows a qualified industrial spy? :curious:

OK, give me some time. I'll interview myself and do a write up of how I'm using messiah in my pipeline.

I just think that even for those willing to contribute by writing articles, researching other people's pipelines, doing interviews, etc. there will be great benefits in terms of acquired knowledge and other people's wisdom. I mean - that's what this game is all about isn't it? Standing on the shoulder's of giants! Why stand in their shadows looking up at them all the time!? :cry: I also wanna be a giant.

[PaulNewman]

I'm tired now.


accepts status quo and patiently waits for the natural development of messiah to run its course

[PaulNewman]

impatiently waiting for my copy of messiah so I can dig it along with everyone else

[chikega]

Chikega:
I don't know if you realize that Taron is a full time member of pmGs development team now and no longer working at CafeFX AFAIK :)
Good for us, bad for them...
Really?!! I knew he was part of the pmG team - but I thought it was more or less as a consultant. So, Taron finally gave up his day job. ;) Most excellent news for us ... now he has no excuse to work on those tutorials he's been threatening us with for some time now. :)

[Wegg]

Personally, it would be nice to hear pmG say more about where they are taking messiah and even what features they are planning down the line. It would make supporting pmG / messiah much easier early on. However, by doing that they're possibly setting themselves up for creating the dreaded vaporware which many critical people would have a field day with - to the great detriment of pmG. So they are wise to just talk about what they have and what works.
pmG's old website had a much larger feature list as part of what was intended for Studio. All sorts of crazy things like direct RIB support, Linux and OSX ports etc. Vaporware and Messiah were often used in the same sentance whenever I brought pmG up to my peirs. I much prefer the minimalistic approach. If you have questions about messiah's future then I'd e-mail Lyle directly. . .

[PaulNewman]

Vaporware and Messiah were often used in the same sentence whenever I brought pmG up to my peers.
At some point in messiah's history I also got that vibe, but I wasn't part of it, I suppose because I never tried to purchase at that time. I'm kind of looking at messiah from fresh again, revisiting and finally jumping aboard. However I understand pmG is not. They've been travelling the long and hard road all this time and certainly have learned many lessons which others may perhaps not understand. I respect that.

[michaelb]

I thought I would wind this thread up by letting you know I've finally come to a decision. I've decided to stick with LightWave for now. (Gasp! :eek: ) A lot of factors are involved (not the least of which is the time and $$$ I've already spent learning LW), and some of them I have not even mentioned here. I've come to the conclusion that for me it is best to stick with what I know best for now. I do want to let you all know I appreciate the interest you've expressed in assisting me, and for taking the time to let me know your thoughts. You've been a big help, and I won't forget it. My best regards to you all, and... who knows? One day you might just get stuck with me again. :)

Michael B.

[chikega]

michaelb,

That's probably the wisest decision especially if finances are limited. It'll be interesting to see where the new team will be taking LW 8.x and beyond. Good luck and maybe we'll see you around again soon. :)

[AlexK]

Yeah good luck michaelb!

[michaelb]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. :)

[dobermunk]

And what about one or two production stills or animation tests leaking out?
Great initiative! Would love to see your stuff!
The fish rig on the v2 release CD is a testimonial of sorts. From the Softmachine GmbH produciton here in Munich, Germany. If anyone is interested, ask away.

Also, I would love to arrange a 10 second club challenge with ready-to-animate characters with a test version of messiah - with a licence to the winner. Just need the official word.

D.

[PaulNewman]

Great initiative! Would love to see your stuff! Thanks, me too! :rolleyes:
The fish rig on the v2 release CD is a testimonial of sorts. From the Softmachine GmbH produciton here in Munich, Germany. If anyone is interested, ask away. Since I'm getting m:Studio as a download upgrade and not on CD, would I get the fish rig?

[tjnyc]

Great initiative! Would love to see your stuff!
The fish rig on the v2 release CD is a testimonial of sorts. From the Softmachine GmbH produciton here in Munich, Germany. If anyone is interested, ask away.

Also, I would love to arrange a 10 second club challenge with ready-to-animate characters with a test version of messiah - with a licence to the winner. Just need the official word.

D.
The fish rig? You mean the clown fish? Because that is one sweet setup. Why not have a new sub forum here for 10-second club challenge in general. I think it would be great to show off what can be done in messiah.


Cheers,

[dobermunk]

Paul: Sure. Part of the package!

tjnyc: thanks! Marek and Ron did wonders. As for a new sub-forum... dunno, there is a forum there. I feel there is a different focus over there. I would like to see a project forum here, though - or even better: at zoogono.

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