.oO-cloak-Oo.
07-30-2002, 02:47 AM
Just curious as to some opinions out there as to what 3d package is the best for games and why. Also, which is easiest to learn for n00bs like me? Im really a 2d artist, but really want to get into 3d. :buttrock:
View Full Version : Best 3d package for games
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BoomRat
07-30-2002, 02:50 AM
Currently, 3DS Max is the most widely used, but Maya is starting to get a place in the market.
Jonny Bubonic
08-12-2002, 05:52 PM
Having used both Maya and Max, I reckon that Maya is definitely more newbie-friendly, but Max is so widely used and supported it's a hard choice between them. You can try out the full version of maya complete (called the public learning edition, or PLE) by downloading it from www.aliaswavefront.com (not a direct link to the download, by the way). There's also a stripped-down version of studio Max, called G-Max available for download. You'll have to find it yourself, but for easy links to both of these, try www.polycount.com
greekdish
08-16-2002, 09:55 PM
For a noob, I'd recommend Maya as it is WAY more simple than Max. I find Max to be clunky and very unintuitive, regardless of how many game companies use it right now. Maya has made a huge improvement in usability from 3.0 to 4.0, and now 4.5 will be even better with more features. For the cost of Maya also, you get a hell of a lot more features built in than with Max, which is more expensive.
MosaFacku
08-16-2002, 10:55 PM
having used both, maya rocks. i learded max first, then moved to maya. i like it a lot more. also, i like maya ple a lot better than max. its way easier to use. just remember, once you get the main concepts of 3d down, what software you use doesn't really matter.
.oO-cloak-Oo.
08-19-2002, 10:08 PM
Cool, thanks for the feedback everyone. I guess for now Im gonna concentrate on learning 3ds max r4 and then I hope to learn Maya since all I have heard is positive feedback for that particular package. Is Lightwave used in the gaming industry? So far nobody has mentioned it, so I wasnt sure. Well, thanks again for the feedback. :D
MosaFacku
08-19-2002, 10:15 PM
if you can get ahold of a softimage xsi demo cd, that might be usefull too. a few game companies have switched over to it from maya or max.
bentllama
08-20-2002, 09:21 AM
Personally, Maya.
Raji
08-20-2002, 08:57 PM
I agree with those that said Maya. :D
There's a book i bought from Mesmer.com called Maya Illuminated: Games. Great book; teaches you what you need to know about game modeling, texturing, animating etc.
Plus since it seems that most people said that Maya is easier to learn (to which I agree), I would say that you should try learning Maya first. Then the principles you will have learned from there, you can move over to MAX or whatever other program you feel like moving to.
Just my 2 cents.
Raji
There's a book i bought from Mesmer.com called Maya Illuminated: Games. Great book; teaches you what you need to know about game modeling, texturing, animating etc.
Plus since it seems that most people said that Maya is easier to learn (to which I agree), I would say that you should try learning Maya first. Then the principles you will have learned from there, you can move over to MAX or whatever other program you feel like moving to.
Just my 2 cents.
Raji
kamikazerussell
08-23-2002, 04:09 AM
Watch out for XSI......it's gaining popularity.....and with good reason!
mattregnier
08-23-2002, 07:07 AM
Max is predominately used, Maya is used more in the film/tv/special effects industry. But watch out for XSI, Valve just signed a deal with soft that will allow all their guys to be using XSI, and unless you have been living under a rock, we all know that Half-life and the Counterstrike mod is absolutely awesome!
sadist
08-23-2002, 07:59 AM
We're a max house, with current polycounts max does everything we need just fine. Although looking at doom3 stuff, I hope we get maya sooner or later..
Marcel
08-23-2002, 01:36 PM
What does the high polycount of the doom 3 models (or rather, the high polycount of the models before the bumpmap is extracted) having to do with the choice between Max and Maya?
Is (in your experience) Maya is better in handling high poly subdivision meshes than Max?
Is (in your experience) Maya is better in handling high poly subdivision meshes than Max?
Whirlwind
08-25-2002, 08:23 PM
My poersnal opinion is "its the person not the package" Most programs are sorted between different mindsets. How a person thinks. I'd suggest just giveing them both a go and see which fits your preference better.
Though personally I think Maya is better. :)
-D
Though personally I think Maya is better. :)
-D
Whirlwind
08-25-2002, 08:25 PM
Hmmm, I wonder what a poersnal is? Oh wait I ment personal....
-D
-D
.oO-cloak-Oo.
08-26-2002, 06:04 AM
Well, it looks like Maya seems to be the popular choice, but I suppose its just a matter of preference. I'll try and tackle it after I figure this whole MAX thing out. If you want to check out my first creation in MAX check it out here --->
Female WIP (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18811) Let me know what you think. :D
Female WIP (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18811) Let me know what you think. :D
evenflcw
08-26-2002, 07:10 AM
Hello fellas, I was just surfing by and noticed the lack of mention about LW and thought I'd might add some to the conversation.
LW can ofcourse be used in the creation of games aswell, and successfully so I might add. From being used in the creation of "The Game of the Year" three years in a row (HomeWorld, Deus Ex, Serious Sam;LW Projects List (http://www.lightwave3d.com/product/projects_list.html)) there should be no doubt about that. Imho LWs modeler is very fast and efficient, and probably has the lest clunkiest interface of the lot. And thus lends itself extremly well for "lowpoly" modeling. Seemingly LW was used alongside Maya in the creation of Doom3 aswell (CGTalk Thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15998&highlight=doom+AND+lightwave)). Apparently Maya handled the animation, while modeling was done in LW.
Cloak: I added some comments to your FemBody thread aswell.
LW can ofcourse be used in the creation of games aswell, and successfully so I might add. From being used in the creation of "The Game of the Year" three years in a row (HomeWorld, Deus Ex, Serious Sam;LW Projects List (http://www.lightwave3d.com/product/projects_list.html)) there should be no doubt about that. Imho LWs modeler is very fast and efficient, and probably has the lest clunkiest interface of the lot. And thus lends itself extremly well for "lowpoly" modeling. Seemingly LW was used alongside Maya in the creation of Doom3 aswell (CGTalk Thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15998&highlight=doom+AND+lightwave)). Apparently Maya handled the animation, while modeling was done in LW.
Cloak: I added some comments to your FemBody thread aswell.
kamikazerussell
08-27-2002, 11:18 PM
yeah, lightwave is alright. It was the first modeling software I ever used. Lightwave's modeler is pretty good, but there are some things that need to be addressed before it can be considered a commonly useful package in games (generally speaking). Most notably is the texture editing. Lightwave has a lot of great procedural textures, but games rely heavily on UV editing. I haven't had a chance to really play with 7.5....but I know up to version 7.0 the uv editing could've used some work. As far as UV tools....XSI is probalby the best package out there with Maya being a close second. How's the UV editing in Max 5? I hear they completely re-did it......
MaskTX
08-29-2002, 05:49 AM
Hi! I think Max and i think Max is simpler then Maya in use.
road
08-29-2002, 05:46 PM
I definately say MAX!!
it is way easier to use for me....
everyone is different though
it is way easier to use for me....
everyone is different though
gabe28
08-29-2002, 08:42 PM
Those Doom models people are talking about were done in Lightwave, not Maya. I know Lightwave is a small player in video games but it is gain some ground. ID software uses it and it was also used to create the Serious Sam games.
tobyWong
08-30-2002, 08:26 AM
It's all a matter of preference. I use max at work, maya for personal stuff. Just learn one really well and all the concepts travel over to the others pretty easy once you learn how to move around in the program. Still... using maya at work would be nice :)
peace
-toby
peace
-toby
spakman
08-31-2002, 08:00 PM
Forgive me if I've missed it, but one area that people seem to gloss over is how you handle what you've got once you've got it. A ton of discussion over which app creates stuff better/faster/easier - a discussion thats esoteric at best.
But what about assett management? I mean, once you've got your hotrod built, does your app let you back it out onto the street, or do you have to take apart the car in the garage, just to put it back together in the driveway?
But what about assett management? I mean, once you've got your hotrod built, does your app let you back it out onto the street, or do you have to take apart the car in the garage, just to put it back together in the driveway?
road
08-31-2002, 10:03 PM
true spakman...!!! great point
and that is why my work is moving from a maya based pipeline to a pure max based pipeline!!
the programmers are able to do alot more with MAX as our pipeline than maya and get the information into our games easier with max
and that is why my work is moving from a maya based pipeline to a pure max based pipeline!!
the programmers are able to do alot more with MAX as our pipeline than maya and get the information into our games easier with max
spakman
09-01-2002, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by road
true spakman...!!! great point
and that is why my work is moving from a maya based pipeline to a pure max based pipeline!!
the programmers are able to do alot more with MAX as our pipeline than maya and get the information into our games easier with max
This often not looked at blue elephant in the corner is deadly accurate with its monkey wrench. I'd be interested to know how much time is divided up between asset creation and asset management between the various packages. Seems like this would be a more accurate comparison model than the "who can select edgeloops quicker" debates.
It's amazing how much the balance of power shifts when you ad "management" into the equation.
true spakman...!!! great point
and that is why my work is moving from a maya based pipeline to a pure max based pipeline!!
the programmers are able to do alot more with MAX as our pipeline than maya and get the information into our games easier with max
This often not looked at blue elephant in the corner is deadly accurate with its monkey wrench. I'd be interested to know how much time is divided up between asset creation and asset management between the various packages. Seems like this would be a more accurate comparison model than the "who can select edgeloops quicker" debates.
It's amazing how much the balance of power shifts when you ad "management" into the equation.
dmonk
09-01-2002, 01:16 AM
What about gmax?
I saw a demo of it at siggraph and it looked pretty cool. plus it's free.
btw: I'm a diehard xsi user so I have to give Xsi a shout.
I saw a demo of it at siggraph and it looked pretty cool. plus it's free.
btw: I'm a diehard xsi user so I have to give Xsi a shout.
PNelson
09-02-2002, 04:45 AM
LightWave seems to be the best kept secret in game development..
Almost ALL of the top development houses use LightWave in some form or fashion.. Check out Namco's "Dead to Rights" there is tons' of LightWave in there..
For the past Three years a game done in ENTIRELY in LightWave has one at least one major Game of the Year award..
Both ID (Doom3) and Digital Extremes (Unreal Championship) are using LightWave for modeling.
LightWave's modeler is widely know as the top modeling package for games.. The one thing NewTek has really dropped the ball on is marketing to gamers..
The big guys are already using LightWave but the guys just getting started really don't know this.
In the near future, you should be seeing some cool LightWave gamer advances.
Catch Ya later,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
BTW: If anyone wants a copy of the LightWave Discovery Edition visit:
http://www.newtek.com/discovery.html
Almost ALL of the top development houses use LightWave in some form or fashion.. Check out Namco's "Dead to Rights" there is tons' of LightWave in there..
For the past Three years a game done in ENTIRELY in LightWave has one at least one major Game of the Year award..
Both ID (Doom3) and Digital Extremes (Unreal Championship) are using LightWave for modeling.
LightWave's modeler is widely know as the top modeling package for games.. The one thing NewTek has really dropped the ball on is marketing to gamers..
The big guys are already using LightWave but the guys just getting started really don't know this.
In the near future, you should be seeing some cool LightWave gamer advances.
Catch Ya later,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
BTW: If anyone wants a copy of the LightWave Discovery Edition visit:
http://www.newtek.com/discovery.html
spakman
09-03-2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by PNelson
Catch Ya later,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
Werd. An unbiased opinion.
Catch Ya later,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
Werd. An unbiased opinion.
Raji
09-03-2002, 06:56 PM
For games, i suppose max would be better. Don't know why, but i've heard that over and over. I prefer Maya.
It has become obvious since this thread started that all we were going to hear were opinions and nothing further. In the end, the guy that asked the question as to what he should learn first went for his own opinion anyway. He wanted to use max, so despite comments about Maya, Lightwave and XSi, he still went for MAX. :D
I started out with MAX and enjoyed it until i wanted to do character animation... then my head exploded and i switched to Animation: Master. The modeling process was pretty intuitive and the animation wasn't too bad. Then i stopped kidding myself into thinking that the 12,000 bugs in the program didn't bother me, my head exploded again and I finally made the switch to Maya. No explosions so far although the learning curve is pretty steep.
In the meantime, I got a job at an animation studio here in Utah and i had to learn Lightwave. I first learned the modeler, then briefly used layout, then finally started working in Messiah: Animate. 3 separate head explosions right there. :scream:
In my opinion, it's a miracle Lightwave has survived as long as it has! Why? The modeler. Yes, the very modeler everyone seems to be raving about. I don't understand how people can rave about a modeler that has NO EDGE TOOLS!! It's like the Mac users who continue to argue that one mouse button is all they need. Another problem Lightwave has is its interface. It simply makes no sense at all. The buttons are all over the place! It's like the people organizing this said "oh no, we ran out of space, let's put those modeling tools over there instead".
I personally hate a few programs now and will not go back to them:
1) Animation: Master -- too buggy, constant crashes
2) Lightwave -- not intuitive
Okay, now I've said what I wanted to say. Now here's the quote from tobyWong that sums it all up:
It's all a matter of preference... Just learn one really well and all the concepts travel over to the others pretty easy once you learn how to move around in the program
My 27 cents
Raji
It has become obvious since this thread started that all we were going to hear were opinions and nothing further. In the end, the guy that asked the question as to what he should learn first went for his own opinion anyway. He wanted to use max, so despite comments about Maya, Lightwave and XSi, he still went for MAX. :D
I started out with MAX and enjoyed it until i wanted to do character animation... then my head exploded and i switched to Animation: Master. The modeling process was pretty intuitive and the animation wasn't too bad. Then i stopped kidding myself into thinking that the 12,000 bugs in the program didn't bother me, my head exploded again and I finally made the switch to Maya. No explosions so far although the learning curve is pretty steep.
In the meantime, I got a job at an animation studio here in Utah and i had to learn Lightwave. I first learned the modeler, then briefly used layout, then finally started working in Messiah: Animate. 3 separate head explosions right there. :scream:
In my opinion, it's a miracle Lightwave has survived as long as it has! Why? The modeler. Yes, the very modeler everyone seems to be raving about. I don't understand how people can rave about a modeler that has NO EDGE TOOLS!! It's like the Mac users who continue to argue that one mouse button is all they need. Another problem Lightwave has is its interface. It simply makes no sense at all. The buttons are all over the place! It's like the people organizing this said "oh no, we ran out of space, let's put those modeling tools over there instead".
I personally hate a few programs now and will not go back to them:
1) Animation: Master -- too buggy, constant crashes
2) Lightwave -- not intuitive
Okay, now I've said what I wanted to say. Now here's the quote from tobyWong that sums it all up:
It's all a matter of preference... Just learn one really well and all the concepts travel over to the others pretty easy once you learn how to move around in the program
My 27 cents
Raji
PNelson
09-03-2002, 08:03 PM
Spakman,
;)
True, I do work for NewTek, but was a user for 6 years before joining the company..
See Ya,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
;)
True, I do work for NewTek, but was a user for 6 years before joining the company..
See Ya,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
.oO-cloak-Oo.
09-03-2002, 08:10 PM
Werd. An unbiased opinion.
LMAO! :xtreme: Thats exactly what I was thinking.
Raji- Since the start of the thread I have had the opportunity to try both Maya 4 and Lightwave 7. So far Max makes the most sense to me, but of course thats the one I have spent the most time with. However, at first glance Max seems more straight forward than the other two, but that may change once I get more experience with the others. I have still yet to try XSI, but I am looking forward to it once I get the time. As far as Lightwave goes, its hard for me to imagine modeling without edge tools becuase I use the edge tools in max all the time. (especially the cut tool). :shrug:
LMAO! :xtreme: Thats exactly what I was thinking.
Raji- Since the start of the thread I have had the opportunity to try both Maya 4 and Lightwave 7. So far Max makes the most sense to me, but of course thats the one I have spent the most time with. However, at first glance Max seems more straight forward than the other two, but that may change once I get more experience with the others. I have still yet to try XSI, but I am looking forward to it once I get the time. As far as Lightwave goes, its hard for me to imagine modeling without edge tools becuase I use the edge tools in max all the time. (especially the cut tool). :shrug:
admir
09-03-2002, 09:21 PM
To enter conversation......
Raji: you know that you can hide buttons in LW:), personally i dont have UI at all (customize shortcuts or use pop up menus). Plus, having expirience with most of programs, polygonal modeling + subdiv surfaces works like a charm comparing to other apps. Like every software LW have its quirks and workarounds for them ( and 3rd party tools like Edgetools etc..).
Admir Elezovic, Lead 3D Artist , Croteam
Email:admir@croteam.com Web: www.croteam.com
Raji: you know that you can hide buttons in LW:), personally i dont have UI at all (customize shortcuts or use pop up menus). Plus, having expirience with most of programs, polygonal modeling + subdiv surfaces works like a charm comparing to other apps. Like every software LW have its quirks and workarounds for them ( and 3rd party tools like Edgetools etc..).
Admir Elezovic, Lead 3D Artist , Croteam
Email:admir@croteam.com Web: www.croteam.com
E_Moelzer
09-03-2002, 09:30 PM
Hello
Well I alos want to add my two cents:
I have used LightWave and MAX and I have used LightWave for gamedev. It worked pretty well, even with the old 5.6, which ahd no UV- tools at all. I was just a matter of preparing the engine correctly. LightWaves file- format is excelent for gamedev IMHO. One can easily read and write it and it is an IFF- format, which means it is more or less platform- independend and can be enhanced for special use without making the format unreadable.
LW7+ has reat UV- tools, one just has to figure out the workflow.
There are tools that instantly convert any texture (alos procedurals into vertex- colormaps. The new vertex- colorpainting is great as well. The Modeler is most excelent for these kind of things BTW. It is fast as hell!
I would suggest to everyone who is into gamedev to take a closer look at it...
Concerning MAX:
I have been using it professionally for quite a time and it proved to be nothing for me. I dont like the cluttered interface with all those scroll- menues. But this is just a matter of personal preference maybe. I would suggest to take a look at both (demo- versions) and compare for yourself.
CU
Elmar
Well I alos want to add my two cents:
I have used LightWave and MAX and I have used LightWave for gamedev. It worked pretty well, even with the old 5.6, which ahd no UV- tools at all. I was just a matter of preparing the engine correctly. LightWaves file- format is excelent for gamedev IMHO. One can easily read and write it and it is an IFF- format, which means it is more or less platform- independend and can be enhanced for special use without making the format unreadable.
LW7+ has reat UV- tools, one just has to figure out the workflow.
There are tools that instantly convert any texture (alos procedurals into vertex- colormaps. The new vertex- colorpainting is great as well. The Modeler is most excelent for these kind of things BTW. It is fast as hell!
I would suggest to everyone who is into gamedev to take a closer look at it...
Concerning MAX:
I have been using it professionally for quite a time and it proved to be nothing for me. I dont like the cluttered interface with all those scroll- menues. But this is just a matter of personal preference maybe. I would suggest to take a look at both (demo- versions) and compare for yourself.
CU
Elmar
DigitalDeuce
09-03-2002, 09:46 PM
There are a few games using LightWave -- if for nothing else but the modeler.
I haven't worked on any "High Profile" games, but the small ones that I've done, LightWave was more than adequate and flexible.
I haven't worked on any "High Profile" games, but the small ones that I've done, LightWave was more than adequate and flexible.
J.P. Eekels
09-03-2002, 10:18 PM
Hello guys,
We here at Digital Extremes have used Lightwave(6.5 and up, and now 7.5) for both UnrealTournament and UnrealChampionship almost for all the levels. A lot of the weapons,pickups,flags,banners and a character class were done in Lightwave as well. There is no reason why you couldn't use Lightwave at all for game development.
The UV tools are very good in Lightwave and for sure compete with Maya and/or Max.
The Lightwave format is very easy to work with for your programmers.
Newtek gives VERY good support (very important!)
So, there you have it.
-P
We here at Digital Extremes have used Lightwave(6.5 and up, and now 7.5) for both UnrealTournament and UnrealChampionship almost for all the levels. A lot of the weapons,pickups,flags,banners and a character class were done in Lightwave as well. There is no reason why you couldn't use Lightwave at all for game development.
The UV tools are very good in Lightwave and for sure compete with Maya and/or Max.
The Lightwave format is very easy to work with for your programmers.
Newtek gives VERY good support (very important!)
So, there you have it.
-P
DigitalDeuce
09-03-2002, 11:12 PM
Man, -- that's UNREAL !!
Ok, so I couldn't let that one by.
Way cool -- I didn't realize that it was used as much as it is. Niiiiiice.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Ok, so I couldn't let that one by.
Way cool -- I didn't realize that it was used as much as it is. Niiiiiice.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Cocefi
09-04-2002, 08:06 AM
I wish there were more games that support LW in their mod tools. At the moment, most of the tools are mainly for Max or gMax users and LW users have to rely on 3rd parties (fans) to create the appropriate tools for them. The same goes for indie game developers... most of them prefer to work on 3dStudio models and character studio animations. :shrug:
PNelson
09-04-2002, 07:31 PM
CCF,
There is actually more LightWave engine support that you would imagine.
Doom3 Engine, Unreal Engine, Serious Sam Engine all support LightWave.
If you have some suggestions of engine developers that we should contact about adding support, please drop me an email.
See Ya,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
pnelson@newtek.com
There is actually more LightWave engine support that you would imagine.
Doom3 Engine, Unreal Engine, Serious Sam Engine all support LightWave.
If you have some suggestions of engine developers that we should contact about adding support, please drop me an email.
See Ya,
Philip Nelson
NewTek
pnelson@newtek.com
Cocefi
09-05-2002, 02:54 AM
Well at the moment, I don't have any particular game engines in mind because I'm just a hobbist who modify games for fun and can't really afford to license a game engine for development. :p
Since some of the game elements in Doom3 and Unreal games were done with LW, will similar tools and support be available for the LW modding community? :)
I've read that Unreal Tournament 2003 will work hand in hand with Maya Personal Learning Edition for modding. It'll be cool if there are more support like this for LW users. Serious Sam may have such support but unfortunately, I haven't played the game before. :p
How about support for non-FPS games like Dungeon Siege, etc?
Since some of the game elements in Doom3 and Unreal games were done with LW, will similar tools and support be available for the LW modding community? :)
I've read that Unreal Tournament 2003 will work hand in hand with Maya Personal Learning Edition for modding. It'll be cool if there are more support like this for LW users. Serious Sam may have such support but unfortunately, I haven't played the game before. :p
How about support for non-FPS games like Dungeon Siege, etc?
Jonny Bubonic
09-05-2002, 10:53 AM
hey CCF...if you're just modding for fun, get G-max as it has a lot of 3rd party support in the form of game specific model/animation exporters and importers, and it's a free download. I'm not so sure about the Maya PLE thing you mentioned...it hasn't had much (if any) support like this as far as I know. On the other hand, the Maya PLE is a full version of Maya complete, so you could probably learn more using that, if you can put up with the REALLY over-the-top logos over everything (including your modelling viewports). If you're new to modelling, I reckon Maya's a bit easier to get into as well, but I'm sure that others will disagree.
BTW, does anyone know if Lightwave does a stripped down/ trial version as I wouldn't mind trying it out?
BTW, does anyone know if Lightwave does a stripped down/ trial version as I wouldn't mind trying it out?
DigitalDeuce
09-05-2002, 01:49 PM
The 'learning edition' of LightWave is called the Discovery Edition.
Yes, there is one -- email NewTek and they can hook ya up.
Yes, there is one -- email NewTek and they can hook ya up.
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