WIRED:Online Games a Massive Pain

[mastermesh]

folks don't like to pay monthly fees to play a freaking game... instead they should take lessons from Blizzard and leave the games online, but for free, just pumping up the price of the initial cd + any expansion purchase in first few months game comes out... I really hope the world game that Blizzard is working on won't be monthly fee enabled, but I have a funny hunch that it will be.

[shehbahn]

World of Warcraft (Blizzard's MMORPG) is coming out with a monthly subscription afaik. Considering Blizzard will have to employ hundreds of in-game customer support reps, even outsourcing them to Bengalore will cost a pretty penny. This is a necessity, considering that the game is fairly buggy and that human action is necessary to resolve many of those issues (characters stuck in game geometry, items lost...). None of the non-persistent online games require this kind of live support and therefore practice a non-subscription based business model (Diablo / Counter Strike...).

[slaughters]

...The business premise to game companies is enticing: Players have to buy a copy of the game for about $50 at a retailer, then pay an additional monthly charge of $10 to $15 to gain entrance to the virtual world...Which nobody likes, and automatically limits you to players who have a credit card to pay with, or who don't feel paranoid about sending their bank account number over the web.

...But times have changed. Some of the more successful companies are outfits like South Korea's NCsoft (http://www.ncsoft.net/), whose City of Heroes has quickly surpassed 100,000 subscribers...Who have promised that there will be no monthly fee.

[heavyness]

Which nobody likes, and automatically limits you to players who have a credit card to pay with, or who don't feel paranoid about sending their bank account number over the web.
Who have promised that there will be no monthly fee.along with Arena.net's big first game Guild Wars. no fee. i've never paid to play a MMORPG online, and really don't see myself doing so [since i'm not a big rpg fan]. but i'm going to try Guild Wars since there is no fee. i would really love to dive into Star Wars Galaxies and play with my friends, but don't have the money to do so [or time to make the monthly fee worth it]. they need to find a way to share the bandwidth. is there a way for each user to share their own bandwidth with other users? sorta 'torrent' the MMO world to each other and give the servers a break? or are they doing this already?

and nintendo said you couldn't make money online... oh wait...?

[shehbahn]

>Which nobody likes, and automatically limits you to players who have a credit card to pay with

debit cards work fine too... in other words : 99% of people who can afford a 3D capable machine and are of legal age. remember that most of the MMORPG have a legal waiver for underage kids in their EULA (making the assumption that's the reason you do not have a credit card). as for not liking, well tough cookies. the $50 of the initial purchase don't even cover the initial software development costs (remember that the client application is a fragment of the real costs that go into the servers code). also considering that a good MMORPG has several -years- worth of lifespan (i know a number EQ players who have accumulated over 300 DAYS of online play-time in the 7 or 8 years of the game's life) - the $10 monthly is just about the cheapest form of entertainment you can find.

>or who don't feel paranoid about sending their bank account number over the we.

internet commerce is a multi-billion market : if the security was that shaky, you can bet you would hear about it in the news. as it stands, i can't recall a single fraud case brought against an MMORPG operator.

>Arena.net's big first game Guild Wars. no fee

i will be very curious to see how their business model accounts for the ongoing costs of server maintenance and in-game user support. without those, i would be very worried about the quality of the service. anyone who has played Everquest, Anarchy Online or Dark Ages of Camelot will tell you horror stories about customer-support and how bad it is because they are un(der)paid labor.

>but i'm going to try Guild Wars since there is no fee

just FYI : all the big games come with a 1 month free subscription upon purchase of the box. right now SWG is having a 1 free month promotion, while Everquest has had simllar offers to try and grab back players who had cancelled their subscriptions.

>Star Wars Galaxies

played it for a while - the gameplay suffers from a number of glaring problems. i would wait until "jump to lightspeed" and the spaceships expansion... also requires a fairly beefy machine.

>they need to find a way to share the bandwidth

bandwidth is not the problem, latency is. bandwidth only becomes a problem in unusual circumstances (500.000 Everquest lemmings downloading a 300Mb patch off Sony's network). if you think about the problem for 2 seconds you'll figure out why swarm tactics are irrelevant to on-line gaming.

[creative destructions]

I've played Dark Age of Camelot before, and it gets bloody boring after a while. Huge time waster as well.
(minus the bloody part.)

[Paul-Angelo]

The sad thing is that I'm not too surprised that EA did this. I played UO ever since it came out back in Sept. 97 or 98. Then EQ came out and people started shifting over to that from UO. Origin then decided it was time to start making a 3d engine version of UO and began work on UO2. Then Richard Garriott the creator of UO and the company Origin left EA. Then about a year later they cancel UO2 and get rid of most of the Origin staff working on that project and shift the remaining employees over to UO. Then in June 03' we start hearing about UXO and a website is formed. I was thinking I wonder why the heck they are even considering creating another sequel to UO since EA didn't want to create a game that will take customers away from UO. That was one of the excuses for not finishing UO2. This is unfortunate and one of the reasons why I despise EA and don't play their games. Always getting peoples hopes up and then letting them down. It's becoming a pattern for EA.

[Goon]

Just had an idea and i need somewhere to put it. Since it was triggered by this thread title, here will have to do:

In the future, instead of crowd simulations like Massive for major fighting movies, they should have the spin off people make the game for the movie before hand. Then release the game as MMP pvp and have thousands upon thousands of people duke it out, w/the servers storing the data in place of the simulation. It would be a pain in the ass but that would rock hardcore. Of course, people never play with any strategy or fear of death, and it would be a MAJOR pain in the ass to orchestrate, but I would love to be able to pick out my groups last stand as we were swarmed by a horde of orcs.

[gnarlycranium]

In the future, instead of crowd simulations like Massive for major fighting movies, they should have the spin off people make the game for the movie before hand. Then release the game as MMP pvp and have thousands upon thousands of people duke it out, w/the servers storing the data in place of the simulation. It would be a pain in the ass but that would rock hardcore. Of course, people never play with any strategy or fear of death, and it would be a MAJOR pain in the ass to orchestrate, but I would love to be able to pick out my groups last stand as we were swarmed by a horde of orcs.OMG!! That is the goddamn coolest idea I've heard all week-- that would be AWESOME... somehow orchestrate online armies... dood!!! If there was some way to make a like... ladder tournament in the game... for people to climb up based on how well they work together, you could try to construct armies that would actually BEHAVE. There might not be a lot of people that cooperative, but if you could just get a few hundred... that would kick ass! And to participate-- you'd be an extra in a movie battle scene! OooooO!

[pnoland]

I've played Dark Age of Camelot before, and it gets bloody boring after a while. Huge time waster as well. I could see if you found it boring but aren't games supposed to pretty much be time wasters? I know I play games usually to kill time during the day. :)


I used to think paying 15 bucks a month was a total rip for just playing a game online until I broke it down. Being still in the xbox/ps2 age (21 years old) I would rent maybe 3 games a month which doesn't seem like a lot but that's roughtly 18 dollars a month on games. Now those games I usually got bored with and played for a few hours and that was it. Recently I bought Lineage II (ncsoft) and played the first month and loved the game. Now 15 dollars a month for a game I love to play seems more reasonable to me then 18 (plus tax!) on random games to cure bordom during rendering time...

Guild Wars looks like it will be one graphically amazing game! Plus the fact that it's a one time fee is even cooler...though I thought i read somewhere that it's a mix between a persistant online world and a world that would compare to Diablo2 where it's different in some areas because its random and not because of what when on online while you weren't connected. I could be wrong though, it still looks like it'll be fun. Bottom line for me is that there isn't anything wrong with paying a montly fee just don't play more then one game at a time otherwise it'll ad up on ya :P It's a game, if you like it play it. I havn't encountered a time with any game where I needed to contact customer support...The only reason I could see for this stlye game is if you lost your username or password and couldn't connect.

pnoland :)

[Geta-Ve]

they way I see it, the monthly payment is an insurance thing as well, no not real unsurrance, i mean insurrance as in anti piracy... im not gonna explain how it works cuz most people have an imagination, but what im getting at is that Guild Wars is setting itself up for some MAJOR piracy with the no fee thing..

i played the e3 beta, and was plesently surprised by how awesome it looked and how well the fps stayed even when fighting multiple enemies... and it seemed soooo odd that GW could maintain such an amazing fps rate cuz when i played the demo for ryzom it was like soooo frickin choppy... AND the graphics werent nearly as good as Guild Wars (imo)

[slaughters]

they way I see it, the monthly payment is an insurance thing as well, no not real unsurrance, i mean insurrance as in anti piracy... im not gonna explain how it works cuz most people have an imagination, but what im getting at is that Guild Wars is setting itself up for some MAJOR piracy with the no fee thing..Heh! You think monthly payments have prevented online piracy?

[CIM]

they way I see it, the monthly payment is an insurance thing as well, no not real unsurrance, i mean insurrance as in anti piracy... im not gonna explain how it works cuz most people have an imagination, but what im getting at is that Guild Wars is setting itself up for some MAJOR piracy with the no fee thing..

Uh, online games can't really be pirated.

As for Guild Wars, it looks like it'll make up the money by releasing frequent expansions.

I played Guild Wars during e3, and I wouldn't really call it a MMORPG. It's basically more of a next-generation Battle.net setup (former architects of Battle.net do work there, hmm...). This is more than likely the main reason they're not going to charge a monthy fee.

[Geta-Ve]

Heh! You think monthly payments have prevented online piracy?
nono, not at all, but im sure piracy is less known in games with monthly payment than it is with games you just need a cdkey for :p


Uh, online games can't really be pirated.
sooo.. your telling me that all those people with the wowbeta file (illegally obtained) just have it to look at it? IN FACT I have a few friends that were playing wowbeta (wink wink)

[nrgy]

I'm going to toss my 2 cents in here because it has a topic I firmly believe in. Paying to play a game I have already bought is hilarious, I mean I'll never support this for the fact I dont want other companys to get wind "HEY THATS A GREAT IDEA WE SHOULD TRY IT" This could open the door to any online game nomater what its type "FPS, RPG, ETC" to a pay for play type of service. Don't get me wrong I'm not being a worry wart here but lets face it when businesses see a certain kind of model work they all will try to jump the bandwaggon and follow. I understand their is costs encured from these massively online rpg type games and they do have to pay for this somehow. I'm not going to dispute that as for I have no solution for an alternative idea on how to work around this. BUT like I said before paying for a game I've already purchased is something no game company will see me supporting.

[CIM]

sooo.. your telling me that all those people with the wowbeta file (illegally obtained) just have it to look at it? IN FACT I have a few friends that were playing wowbeta (wink wink)

No, they're playing on a 3rd party server devoid of any content.

[Geta-Ve]

No, they're playing on a 3rd party server devoid of any content.
tell that to them :/

what makes MMO's so invulnerable in your opinion? apart from the money issue?

[CelticArtist]

Well, i could be wrong, but what makes them so invulnerable is the cd-key, you can't just copy a cd-key and not bother registering like a single player game, in an MMOG, your cd-key is your constant verification, they check EVERY time you login to see that you've got a legal copy, i've played almost every MMORPG a little bit (never got serious with them, thank god) and i've yet to meet someone who was using a hacked copy (and admitted it anyway) i'm sure there are ways, but they're not common. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't other forms of illegal activity with MMORPG's, take for example the habit of people to sell online objects and characters for real money, it's illegal (based on the UA anyway) now, if you were to actually buy one of these things, you're a friggin moron anyway and deserve to lose the money, but still, it happens. Ok, i'm sure i've missed something, so feel free to prove me wrong, but i don't think it's commonly possible to pirate an MMOG.

[Geta-Ve]

not commonly no, :p but in the end still possible.. but I think its the money you pay every month that does it, the fact that they ARE indeed watching you all the time, unlike say counterstrike or star craft or even newer ones like UT2k4 and such its alot easier to play online since they really dont care what happens as long as their servers run fine they also simpley cant "afford" to be on top of things :p

[CIM]

not commonly no, :p but in the end still possible.. but I think its the money you pay every month that does it, the fact that they ARE indeed watching you all the time, unlike say counterstrike or star craft or even newer ones like UT2k4 and such its alot easier to play online since they really dont care what happens as long as their servers run fine they also simpley cant "afford" to be on top of things :p

LOL. :applause:

FYI, online games aren't pirated truely for two simple reasons. The first one, they require a valid cd-key to connect and play on the official servers. The second, MMORPGs store all their content server side, so for someone to pirate it, they'd have to hack or steal the server(s) that hold the content.

[squidinc]

Paying to play a game I have already bought is hilarious, I mean I'll never support this for the fact I dont want other companys to get wind "HEY THATS A GREAT IDEA WE SHOULD TRY IT" This could open the door to any online game nomater what its type "FPS, RPG, ETC" to a pay for play type of service. Don't get me wrong I'm not being a worry wart here but lets face it when businesses see a certain kind of model work they all will try to jump the bandwaggon and follow. I understand their is costs encured from these massively online rpg type games and they do have to pay for this somehow. I'm not going to dispute that as for I have no solution for an alternative idea on how to work around this. BUT like I said before paying for a game I've already purchased is something no game company will see me supporting.
I don't think there should be large fee for static online rpgs, but games like world of warcraft really do need that kind of support, there will apparently be a live team always adding new content to the game ( quests, monsters etc.) possibly even new continents

[Geta-Ve]

LOL. :applause:

FYI, online games aren't pirated truely for two simple reasons. The first one, they require a valid cd-key to connect and play on the official servers. The second, MMORPGs store all their content server side, so for someone to pirate it, they'd have to hack or steal the server(s) that hold the content.
I dunno man.. I know my post was pretty pathetic but :p


But seriously, when you say online games i assume you meant MMO's so Ill look past that.. but anyways.. doesnt that seem kinda.. wrong? And by wrong i mean about your second point, if they hold everything server side then why do we need to purchase a cd? (or multiple cd's as is the case these days) if everything is server side then everything would be streamed to you, and streaming a whole WORLD is pretty um... hard? i would think at least.. what exactly is installed on your computer for if not the content?

maybe Im not reading content right, maybe you mean something other than..the..er..content.. :shrug:

AND lets say the content is server side... how exactly did these folks that pirated the WOW beta get it playable?! if the crap is server side that means they actually did hack the server and steal everything...

maybe im just not getting you man, but your not making very good points.. as per the cd keys, theres something called a key gen..

[Kael]

I will wait for Worlds of Warcraft... I think this MMO has a lot going on for it just based on the background it comes from... Should they fail, should Blizzard fail on their most popular Warcraft soil... then I think MMO companies should really reconcider how things are done

-Andrew

[Kael]

There is some truth to pyrating issue this because even though it is server side... most of the info is kept in your computer so what you send is just updates of what you are doing. But if the hacker thought it out (and they do trust me) they just figured out that what they need to do is to make a hack that creates an account and validates a cd key for it... I know it sounds elaborated but that's how they have to do it. Remember when they said that those keys that are generated based on your computer specs couldn't be cracked? Well I know a few examples where they were wrong abou that one. The point being... hackers are there to hack and they will find a way! How can Blizzard tell if a new account was illegaly created out of the thousand of accounts legaly created at that same time! I dont know if I'm making any sence...

-Andrew

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.