Mac or PC for 3d apps??

[beaker]

Use whatever your more confortable with. The G5 isn't really that much slower since they rewrote Maya 6.0 for Mach.o. So each to his own. If your just learning the software a stock G5 will work fine. Your never going to use the extra speed for another year or so. If your using it professionally then look at the new 6800 nvidia card. Buying a G5 is like getting a nice Boxx machine, so your going to be paying a premium price compared to building it yourself.

OSX comes with gcc, python, perl, ruby, tcl/tk, csh, bash, etc... All those really nice tools come stock in OSX, really nice if you want to work in film or be a td without the hassle of setting up a linux box. I personally use linux and osx(no winblows) at home and can't wait till we totally move over to linux at work.

[LiquidMetal]

Alright kewl thx.The Maya you are talking about,is it Unlimited or Complete or does it even matter?

[ya3]

u cant get Unlimited for Mac... but who cares.
enjoy your G5 :D

[LiquidMetal]

In a few months I will.And so will alot of mac users.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=151997

[beaker]

u cant get Unlimited for Mac... but who cares.
enjoy your G5 :DUh, Wrong, Unlimited comes out next month on OSX. August 9th according to the email maintenance customers received.

[LiquidMetal]

huh?Newayz,I have another question.Is a dual proc really necessary for using Max/Maya?

[dmeyer]

Uh, Wrong, Unlimited comes out next month on OSX. August 9th according to the email maintenance customers received.

Just in time for Siggraph fanfare.

:buttrock:

[dmeyer]

huh?Newayz,I have another question.Is a dual proc really necessary for using Max/Maya?

It'll run just fine on a single proc but the dual will of course be preferable. All of the G5's are dual now though so...

[LiquidMetal]

Yea I know but I was just wondering because I may be able to save some money building my own PC system.All these new(or not so new) parts coming out like the 64 bit and the dual proc gettin me confused.Thx 4 the info.

[jscott]

Go with dual processors if you can afford it.

-jscott

[beaker]

Only Rendering(Mental Ray, Maya Software, IPR) and Paintfx are multithreaded. Nice thing though is you can be batch rendering on one processor while working on the other so you will get less of a slow down.

[mummey]

Go with dual processors if you can afford it.

-jscott
The computer architecture of the G5 (aka PowerPC 970) was actually designed for dual-processor machines. Only after the dual was finished did they create the single processor version. As a result, the G5 is _very_ optimized for dual processors.

Even if it means Ramen noodles for the next two weeks, get the dual processor. You thank yourself later.

-B

[kromekat]

The top end G5 dual is only beaten in render speeds (Cinebench) by the overclocked Xeons (dual also), so I don't think any of the current Pentiums or Athlons can compete in that respect. Also, buying a stock Mac is likeliy to provide you with a better made system, that will last you longer than most average PCs. Personally, I find OSX a far superior and more enjoyable system than Windows, but again, depends what you are used to, and what you prefer to work with.

I'd definitely reccomend dual processors though, whatever you decide - I am currently awaiting a new 2.5Ghz G5, and in Cinebench, that is going to be about 7 times faster than my current 1Ghz G4 in rendering (with optimised software) :bounce:

[DimitrisLiatsos]

Buy A MAC G5 ...u will definitely will have a piece of mind , a very stable machine, and finally u will be able to hear your music , browse the internet and maybe write a cdr while rendering in Mental Ray without beeing afraid that the machine will crush....lol

I stopped the Blue Screen of Death...so here is my 2 cents for ya.


EDIT : Be sure to order it with at least 2 GigaBytre ram...and better wait until 6800 Ultra(Nvidia) is out....kick ass Card under OSX...I run my system with an ATI 9800 pro 128 Mbyte...and there is no similarity with the same card under windows...i mean of'course that it runs faster under OSX...it's because of that QUARTZ system i think!!!

[kromekat]

...Be sure to order it with at least 2 GigaBytre ram...and better wait until 6800 Ultra(Nvidia) is out....kick ass Card under OSX...I run my system with an ATI 9800 pro 128 Mbyte...and there is no similarity with the same card under windows...i mean of'course that it runs faster under OSX...it's because of that QUARTZ system i think!!!

I agree about the RAM too - although, don't buy it from Apple - they are overpriced. Better to get a thrid party to supply some decent Kingston RAM or similar for less. Also remember that the G5s need their memory configured as pairs, so for 2Gb you will need 2x Igb or 4x 512Mb (latter is cheaper option).

I am sure the 6800 will be the ultimate card for the mac when it is available, but generally speaking regarding gfx cards across the systems, the reverse is true - you dont get as good results with the same cards on a Mac as on a PC, as the OGL drivers for the MacOS aren't as well written as they could be yet. Don't let that out you off though, it will still rock! :)

[LiquidMetal]

Wow thx for the replys.I will definetly go with an Apple now.Does anyone run Maya with a Powerbook?Because I am looking for something small and was looking at the Powerbook.How does the geforce fx 5200 ultra fair with the g5?And the radeon 9600 xt?My budget is 2500 and so far I will only have 512 ram.

[kromekat]

Now I am confused - are you meaning you want a laptop as well as a desktop machine or instead of?

If the former, then the Powerbook 15 would be fine as a second machine, and is the most economical balanced with features, but it is not a G5, it is a G4.

If you mean that you are looking at the latter as a machine to use instead of a desktop, then you must realise you wont get anywhere near the performance - beit PC or Mac!

[LiquidMetal]

Alright thx.Last question promise.lol.Can anyone direct me to a site that sells os x ram,vid cards,etc..thx.

[dmeyer]

Alright thx.Last question promise.lol.Can anyone direct me to a site that sells os x ram,vid cards,etc..thx.

www.coastmemory.com

or

www.macsales.com

for Apple ram.

[colintheys]

Gonne have to be the badguy here and put in a vote for pc.

A mac will probably work fine... they are well-made machines for sure. However, you will forever suffer from incompatibilities and limitations in the software world. If I can't do a particular thing, 30 seconds of google searching will turn up a freeware app to do that task, from motion capture, to desktop calendars, to firewire vid capture. I understand that many of these things are built into OS X, however, should you ever need to do more, I am much more comfortable knowing that I can with a PC.

Second, if you use a PC, you will never have to worry about getting a file to/from a client. There are almost no mac formats you can't write on the PC, while the opposite is not true at all.

Finally, the cost factor should not be overlooked so quickly. I just built a super-budget RAID-5 server PC with a DVD-writer for under $400. My animation machine has cost me only a little over $2000 over the past 5 years and it's been pretty modern for the whole 5 years. Frankly, a carefully designed custom PC will give you what you want for MUCH less money than a mac. Not to mention, after some time passes, if you have a PC, you can easily remove the mobo/processor(s)/ram and replace them for only a few hundred dollars (or less,) effectively giving you a new system. Even if you do it every year and the video card every other year, you'll probably be spending less than if you had gone the mac route.

In their defense, macs are well-built computers. If you had to choose between a Dell and a Mac, I might lean towards the mac (first time I have said this)... the quality of the prebuilt pcs these days is really getting down there... :/ At work I'm teaching a class using new 2.8ghz p4 HPs which underperform my 1.3ghz Pentium M laptop in rendering by at least a factor of 3. However, my school's nearly $4000 dual G4 is nowhere near as fast my my desktop, a single-processor AMD XP.

[imashination]

The top end G5 dual is only beaten in render speeds (Cinebench) by the overclocked Xeons (dual also),

'fraid not http://www.3dfluff.com/mash/cbtop.php

[beaker]

Second, if you use a PC, you will never have to worry about getting a file to/from a client. There are almost no mac formats you can't write on the PC, while the opposite is not true at all.Sorry but that is bumpcus. I have been working in a multi-os environments for years. If your not a retard you can move material from place to place without any issues. Mac, Linux and Windows can all write out universal formats that everything else can read without any issues. Shit, 90% of the editorial departments for a film in hollywood are mac and we are always getting stuff from their osx and some even still use os9.

[nadesico46]

If you only have $2500 to spend, im sure even the most dyed-in-the-wool mac guy will agree you are not going to get very far. If you haven't noticed, G5's come witout such amenities as monitors included for the price.

For $2500 you are better off with an athlon 64FX or Opteron based system running a good Linux distribution like SuSE or Mandrake wich are very easy to set up and use; and have gobs of software bundled, not to mention GTK, Perl, etc...

Who knows, you might even have cash left for a nice monitor or two.

[kromekat]

...you will forever suffer from incompatibilities and limitations in the software world. If I can't do a particular thing, 30 seconds of google searching will turn up a freeware app to do that task, from motion capture, to desktop calendars, to firewire vid capture. I understand that many of these things are built into OS X, however, should you ever need to do more, I am much more comfortable knowing that I can with a PC.

That's not true at all!! - and from a Mac point of view, just about everything there is for the PC there is for the Mac - it's just that the PC market is saturated with stuff! - and as you kind of said, most of it is built in to the OS anyway, - but there is no shortage of largescale or small thrid party developers for Mac.

Second, if you use a PC, you will never have to worry about getting a file to/from a client. There are almost no mac formats you can't write on the PC, while the opposite is not true at all.


That's not true either! - I have never had to worry about getting a file to and from my Mac to a PC, and I havent yet had a disc from a PC that I couldn't read or open files with. Most apps have a common file type regardless of platform, and even if there isn't, the Mac is brilliant at finding translators. You can burn media in any format from a Mac (native or Windows), and read the same. Sorry, but this just isn't a valid argument, and even if it was, most design/repro/art related places have a Mac or 2 on board, if not an entire Mac based studio.


re: my comments about G5's and overclocked Xeons : fraid not http://www.3dfluff.com/mash/cbtop.php


?

Ok - so there are 2 non overclocked Xeons above top end with clock speeds of 3.2 and 3Ghz!! - right...!? and there are also a lot of other Xeons also clocked between 2.8 and 3.2Ghz below the G5 scores!? - My statement was hardly misleading now was it Mash!!?

btw - its about another 17 places down for the Athlon shows up, and the Pentium 4... well, that's further down still :)

[imashination]

Ok - so there are 2 non overclocked Xeons above top end with clock speeds of 3.2 and 3Ghz!! - right...!? and there are also a lot of other Xeons also clocked between 2.8 and 3.2Ghz below the G5 scores!? - My statement was hardly misleading now was it Mash!!?

btw - its about another 17 places down for the Athlon shows up, and the Pentium 4... well, that's further down still :)

1) The G5 results are based on theoretical beta software.

2) For rendering speed there are 2 standard machines which are faster

3) For realtime OGL display, there are ~50 standard machines which are faster, and none of them even use the GF6800 ultra of the G5.

4) For single threaded calculations such as particles and dynamics, the Athlon FX is faster than the G5.

Hardly a misleading statement was it?

[kromekat]

Not fond of Macs then mash?

1) : What so that software that they were tested on doesn't actually exist at all?? ;) - We all know its a beta, and it's only currently that that is optimised for the G5 and not the full blown Cinema (yet) but since that shows what it is capable of (unless the theoretical software is making it up!?), that gives at least a good idea of it's true power. Either way, even unoptimised, the results are where you expect them to be with 2 x 2.5Ghz processors I think!

2) : Yeah, that's what I said! :)

3) : Mash - I quote me:

The top end G5 dual is only beaten in render speeds (Cinebench) by the overclocked Xeons (dual also), so I don't think any of the current Pentiums or Athlons can compete in that respect.

I was talking about render speeds, I even pointed out that : "you dont get as good results with the same cards on a Mac as on a PC, as the OGL drivers for the MacOS aren't as well written as they could be yet."

4) : Ah well then, that would swing it for me then! lol! ;) - although, given that the dual speed is higher at 'the other stuff', I guess that might still help me prefer a Mac somehow.

[log0n]

One thing to consider about Mac + OpenGL, it will just work right out of the box. You don't have to install revision after revision of driver to find an acceptable level of stability, performance, etc as you would with a PC. It may not do the latest wizz-bang fancy feature, but it also won't BSOD after that fancy feature segfaults on you.

If you're interested more in creating something with tools, get a mac. If you're more interested in the tools, get a pc.

$.02

[imashination]

Not fond of Macs then mash?

Rockets are faster than bicycles, Oh No! I must hate bicycles, stone the bicycle hater....

[imashination]

One thing to consider about Mac + OpenGL, it will just work right out of the box. You don't have to install revision after revision of driver to find an acceptable level of stability, performance, etc as you would with a PC. It may not do the latest wizz-bang fancy feature, but it also won't BSOD after that fancy feature segfaults on you.

If you're interested more in creating something with tools, get a mac. If you're more interested in the tools, get a pc.

$.02

So why do we see here once a month hoards of macophiles chanting about how the latest point release of OSX finally brings amazing 3d speed improvements? Sounds like constantly upgrading drivers to me.

If you dont want mountains of driver updates and bsods, then use a modern OS such as XP, or buy a machine made by a decent manufacturer which does work out of the box. I've had a dozen machines here over the past 2 years, neither of which have ever done this, because they've been purchased from quality companies or built competently. If you buy a cheap and tacky cream cased box from Billy Bobs computer shack then you get what you pay for.

I have nothing against macs, I use them often in my work, but to see the same mindly shite repeated over and over "ooh, pcs are so hard to use and they crash, I used one 10 years ago and cant stand them" its just so, well it gets on my tits. I point out the simple solid facts so that people can learn and make informed decissions for themselves. Perhaps you guys should open your eyes to the real state of hardware and software out there instead of playing the same scratched record you've gotten used to.

Win 3 was dire, win 95 was a joke, win 98 was the punchline, win ME was the encore, win 2k was the first OS worth using, win XP works

Apple OS 8 was fine, OS9 was great when it was released, OSX is fine but was several years too late, along with the G5.

Any arguments there? Or are you going to pull out a photoshop blur filter benchmark to scare me off.

[thephalinx]

I would much rather use a Mac for my 3d work, but it just doesn't work. They are much faster, but very overpriced, and just don't support all the software you might need.

That's what it comes down to, macs might be faster, but they just won't give you the software (and occassionaly hardware) support you need.

And if it does take a dual xeon to be fater than a G5 in rendertimes. I can get a dual xeon much cheaper than a G5 if I build the pc myself.

[beaker]

That's what it comes down to, macs might be faster, but they just won't give you the software (and occassionaly hardware) support you need.Please educate us on what specific software OSX does not have that you need?

OSX runs most of the opensource apps out there. So it would reason to say that from your reasoning Linux also doesn't have the software support either.

[kromekat]

Rockets are faster than bicycles, Oh No! I must hate bicycles, stone the bicycle hater....

Interesting analogy! - misplaced, but droll nonetheless. ;)

[kromekat]

So why do we see here once a month hoards of macophiles chanting about how the latest point release of OSX finally brings amazing 3d speed improvements? Sounds like constantly upgrading drivers to me.

lol! - oh here we go - I refuse to get drawn into the old 'macophiles' thang - the description from a true 'windozer' ;P

If you dont want mountains of driver updates and bsods, then use a modern OS such as XP, or buy a machine made by a decent manufacturer which does work out of the box.

Like a Mac you mean?

I've had a dozen machines here over the past 2 years, neither of which have ever done this, because they've been purchased from quality companies or built competently. If you buy a cheap and tacky cream cased box from Billy Bobs computer shack then you get what you pay for.

Well that's obvious, and another reason why many prefer macs too. But lets face it, before XP, everything needed drivers installing, and in some instances, hardware had to be removed and then replaced in sequence along with all the driver software because of constant mismatches in manufacturers components and software! - if that hasn'nt happened to you, then a) I don't believe it, OR b), you have been very sheltered from 'real world' PC's ;)

I have nothing against macs, I use them often in my work, but to see the same mindly shite repeated over and over "ooh, pcs are so hard to use and they crash, I used one 10 years ago and cant stand them" its just so, well it gets on my tits.

Well, thankfully, I don't think you have seen too much of that in this thread - I know I havent quoted any 'mindly shite' thus far, but I could if you like.

I point out the simple solid facts so that people can learn and make informed decissions for themselves. Perhaps you guys should open your eyes to the real state of hardware and software out there instead of playing the same scratched record you've gotten used to.

Er.. that's exactly what I was doing! - that according to you Cinebench results for rendering, there were only 2 non-overclocked Xeons above the top end G5, and they were around the dual 3Ghz mark! - solid facts showing the speed of the G5 chips.

Win 3 was dire, win 95 was a joke, win 98 was the punchline, win ME was the encore, win 2k was the first OS worth using, win XP works
Apple OS 8 was fine, OS9 was great when it was released, OSX is fine but was several years too late, along with the G5.
Any arguments there? Or are you going to pull out a photoshop blur filter benchmark to scare me off.[

No - no arguments there! - I am not sure that OSX was too late!? - it arrived on time - wasn't it before XP arrived?

Mash - I have no real arguments over Mac vs PC - my opinion comes from experience of both, and personal preference of the Mac platform for countless reasons. XP looks great - not as great as OSX, but a grown up OS that appears to have some intelligence at last, but that isn't the point - the point that you came into this thread over was my statement about G5s speed against the PC competitors - you countered my statement with evidence from your own site, that saya exactly what I said it did!!?

Anyway - cheers! :)

[dmeyer]

If a PC renders statistically 10% faster...but I am 11% more productive on a Mac...then what?

:scream:

[kromekat]

If a PC renders statistically 10% faster...but I am 11% more productive on a Mac...then what?

:scream:

Well I think some would assume that you were at least 12% obsessed as a 'macophile'. ;)

[thephalinx]

beaker....apps that don't work...
3d studio and autocad, the ones I use the most (unless either have come out in the last 3 or 4 weeks) and I'm sure plenty of others that I don't use on a regular basis.

and no, linux would not be a good choice either, xp does the job great. It's the first descent pc os since dos, and actually is wonderful in some way.

mac processor speeds are better, no question. Due to the way it handles data in lots of small task, vs the large tasks of pc chips. Basic computer knowledge 101

This isn't a debate about what is better, macs or pcs, but is the only thing going on here, not productive conversation. Just the classic pc users bashing macs, mac users bashing pc's.
I like macs, pc's smell bad!
I like pc's, macs are too brightly colored!

It comes down to:
software compatibility;
or lack thereof currently with macs in the 3d world. If it weren't about 3d, it would be different. I do all my video editing on macs, because they don't have final cut for pc's, and if they did, it would work as well. But, we're talking about 3d. Not video, and not what computer is better in general
and
Price; you can build a much beefier, multiprocessor, way to powerful for any one man, computer for much less than the very nice and wonderful straight out of the box mac.
If it takes a dual xeon to beat the mac G5, then fine. I can get the processors and motherboard for around $600, then spend what I want on the rest of the system vs the about $2,500 I would have to slap down for one of those nice mac

[colintheys]

well said phalinx.

Video editing, in my opinion, is one of the few areas where macs and pcs both work just fine. The FCP / Shake combo on the mac is just as good as almost any same-price-range equivalent on the pc. Some prefer the mac interface, some the pc. Both have the same funcitonality and as an editor I know and am happy to use either.

However, this is a 3d forum and unfortunately for my mac using friends, the mac software just isn't all there yet. I know Maya Unlimited will be available momentarily, but if macs were a serious percentage of the high-end 3d graphics market, I think the software would have hit mac long ago. 3d studio max, softimage xsi, and maya unlimited are all pc/linux only atm. There's Cinema 4d and lightwave, of course, but the real big boys are still playing in the pc court. Not that I pretend to think that will last... :)

Frankly, I hope to see the mac/pc gap close up. Both are fine platforms in general. We have reached the point where I think it's safe to say that neither will go away. So wouldn't it be nice if we could finally see truly stress-free interfacing? At the moment, when we have production meetings and everyone brings their laptops, someone is always left out. If the meeting is pc dominated, everyone shares files around via wireless and the inevitable mac user has to basically sit it out. If it's mac dominated, the reverse is true. I know the interfacing options are all there, but we all know it is anything but seamless... :shrug:

[DimitrisLiatsos]

I see u are all still having fun with this matter :bounce:

well..

thephalix ..u said
If it takes a dual xeon to beat the mac G5, then fine. I can get the processors and motherboard for around $600, then spend what I want on the rest of the system vs the about $2,500 I would have to slap down for one of those nice mac

well my friend ...i have spend a lot of money in the past building systems like the one u are saying....what did i get ...->>> :banghead: :banghead:

lol....right now i have an IBM intelistation DUAL XEON 2.8 , a pentium 4 3GHz and a Dual G5....well let me put this way...if anyone enters my room..i am always sitting on my MAC(wich doesn't have the strong OpenGL card my PC has)...take notice i am using PC's from 1988...lol.....Now the only thing that worries me is if the new NVIDIA for my MAC will arrive in a good price and if it's up to my expectations .....Expencive PC's no more ...an expensive BUT trusty MAC...well ...i will just wait for the 3GHz G5 to come out.

As for compatibility issues that a fellow CGtalker said....well in the tv spots i make i work with my MAC and my IBM....never up to now i had a problem...zipo ...none...natha...! I don't know for programmers...or any other profession ..but for 3D and video...i haven't found one...except if u are working Final cut or Shake....but then again if u are working those apps ...u ...don't need a pc ever....

Please take notice that i don't hate pc's ...i really like them...hell..i grew up with them...but i have a problem with the way operating systems in a pc behave....

With admiration
Dimitris


P.S : Does anyone remember IBM OS ....the one trully promising operating system that got lost just because of the very clever microsoft marketing......with that one ..now maybe we had a much different conversation.

[parallax]

I really thought this was a non-issue, but all of a sudden, a whole thread is pro Mac3D instead of the usual anti 3D on Mac..
But anyway, that all doesn't matter, because there are a few reasons to prefer PC's over Mac's when doing 3D: Choice and price. There are a lot more 3D packages available on the PC then on the Mac, and a PC of similar capability will cost you a lot less then a given Mac.
Generally, PC's also are faster in 3D apps, but it is really a close call nowadays. Maybe in the very near future this will change radically.
On the other hand, when it comes to editing, i'd take a Mac over a PC any day of the week.

[Blackstripe]

Well, for whatever this is worth, I just recently got rid of a dual G5 I was using and replaced it with a Boxx system, and I'm perfectly happy. For any Mac software I run, I still have a PowerBook rev B. 12".

In my experience, being all Mac cuts me off from a great majority of new software and hardware, and I don't like that. To boot, and no matter how you cut it, it's a Windows world out there, and sometimes the Mac is treated like a second-class citizen.

So I have a blazing FX53 desktop from Boxx as my primary system, and a Mac as a portable machine. Best of both worlds and all of that.

[Saurus]

P.S : Does anyone remember IBM OS ....the one trully promising operating system that got lost just because of the very clever microsoft marketing......with that one ..now maybe we had a much different conversation. Actually, Macs 1984 commercial is base on going against IBM. If you are "King of the Hill" everybody wants to knock you down. Now, IBM and Apple teamed up together to go against Microsoft. Todays "King of the Hill".

Roach

[beaker]

beaker....apps that don't work...
3d studio and autocad, the ones I use the most (unless either have come out in the last 3 or 4 weeks) and I'm sure plenty of others that I don't use on a regular basis.
Thing is you told him not to use mac because it doesnt have the apps, but he isn't using any of those apps, he is using maya.

and no, linux would not be a good choice either, xp does the job great. It's the first descent pc os since dos, and actually is wonderful in some way.I don't get why people like XP so much. I think it is a horribly bloated operating system that uses way too many resources standing still. I still prefer Win2k over XP any day. As for linux, in film it is king. It runs everything we need and more. Who needs 3dsMax when you have Maya, XSI, Houdini, Prman and Shake.

[DimitrisLiatsos]

Actually, Macs 1984 commercial is base on going against IBM. If you are "King of the Hill" everybody wants to knock you down. Now, IBM and Apple teamed up together to go against Microsoft. Todays "King of the Hill".

Roach


Hahahahha...really...i don't remember that....wasn't that time that Mr.Apple and Mr.Microsoft were friends ??? I must also add that u are referring to a time where everybody was seeing this thing called Personal Computers becoming from a baby to a Giant. ...ahhh maybe u are right!!! i am seek from all those marketing stuff.
In any case to the thread starter ....try to find a Pc and a Mac to work a little ...1-3 days....i think that after that ...maybe ...just maybe ..u have meda up your mind.....but...


then again....i can't resist....buy a MAC....lol!!!

:bounce: :bounce:

[freeDNA]

If you guys really that want to play platform advocacy, why don't go to Battlefront Forum at Arstechnica.com. (http://episteme.arstechnica.com/6/ubb.x) Let the experts answer/debunk your questions/stupid biased assumptions. "Macs are faster than pc" "XP are bloated" blah blah blah... Just go there and let cgtalk.com be in peace. That forum is VERY WELL moderated and arguments are presented from experts of both sides.

[CGTalk Moderation]

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