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RobertoOrtiz
07-08-2004, 01:54 PM
Today's topic:

"Hells Last Stand" by Kieronh

Posted Monday July 6TH 2004: 6:30 US EST

Welcome to the cgtalk sketch group.

We will try to post one of these topics once a day for your enjoyment.

These are the rules:
* Post only your FINAL piece on this thread, based on the topic on the thread.
* 640 x 480 or 480 x 640/ 800 X 600 or 600 x 800
* They can be done on any medium.
* If you wish, you can add a brief text description about your piece.
* Only original compositions. No "tributes" o plagiarizing.
* The topics will be posted every day between 10:00 - 12:00 am US EST.
* The artist also has to post total length of time it took (Thanks Clanger for the idea) and program used.
* Only final pieces can be posted on the thread. They must have been done AFTER the topic has been announced.
* Any piece caught breaking the rules will be taken off the thread.
* The topics will be picked at random from the list on this thread
(The author will be given credit). So guys keep them coming.
*You can add multiple entries, but please dont post WIP (Unless you intend to update them). NEW RULE!
* Ill post ANOTHER thread to quantify and track WHO has participated the most on these threads.


Good luck

-Roberto
PS To submit your topic ideas and suggestions go to this thread:
>>Link<< (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145003&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

TeoM
07-08-2004, 03:36 PM
Quickie, 45 minutes in painter.

http://www.h3who.com/Stuff/HellsLastStand.jpg



Needless to say, I'm rooting for the pits.

DePingus
07-08-2004, 04:59 PM
Not sure if this would really qualify as a "sketch"...but I really need to work on my painting skills (or lack there of).
01:30 - PS

http://lcms.dadeschools.net/depingus/dp34.jpg

grouse
07-08-2004, 05:21 PM
okay this is taking ages...I've run out of time, but hopefully I'll get to finish it soon. I'll post again if i have a chance to finish!!

http://universalacademy.co.uk/chris_stuph/hell_battle.jpg

I'm happy with these faces at the bottom (only two so far) not as happy with the advancing troops.

The background took about 1.40hours to do...sketch my arse

Garma
07-08-2004, 06:39 PM
grouse thats awesome. you should finish it. Totally awesome colors and concept!

right, I had something totally different in mind, but it turned out not too good and I lost interest. Another one screwed :(

It's a gutter btw.

http://oli.tudelft.nl/csr/huizen/hg/tdg/034_hellslaststand.jpg

SP1R1T
07-08-2004, 07:02 PM
Yeah. I don't see Hell as couageous in its final moments so much as pitiful and silly.

http://www.alwayscrm.com/images/HellsLast.jpg

Emphasis on "silly."

Wacom tablet, PS. 1 hour and 15. Spent too long on the guy and no time for a bg.

AtmaWeapon
07-08-2004, 07:04 PM
1 Hour Photoshop, mouse only. grouse, those are amazing clouds.

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/beiy/cgtalk/hell.jpg

If anyone is wondering, Satan in old scripture methology was a 7 headed dragon. Not to be confused with the fallen angel lucifarious.

BG|Blank
07-08-2004, 07:06 PM
http://www.blank-grafix.de/speedies/4-c.jpg

About 2 hours in Photoshop

Colors and characters are very unfinished but I have no time to do it anymore

Supervlieg
07-08-2004, 08:27 PM
Hells last stand

http://www.bolman.nl/cgtalk/0034.jpg

Photoshop/1.5 Hours

Thats some wicked sketching Grouse, or is that a photo manipulation?

Rikaro
07-08-2004, 08:27 PM
1/2 hr Painter
crap Painter is so hard to get used to, 1st time Painter too :D
http://members.shaw.ca/rikaro/Images/sketch34.jpg

Drumwhore
07-08-2004, 08:44 PM
here's mine, around 1h45, photoshop. the floor looks a bit too neat.. should add rocks, dead bodies and stuff.. but it will take too long for a 'sketch' :)
btw, grouse, very impressive work!!

http://users.skynet.be/am272566/hell.jpg

SteveV
07-08-2004, 09:05 PM
Crappy Painter? Don't blame the product!

Rikaro
07-08-2004, 10:05 PM
Crappy Painter? Don't blame the product!
dont' start flaming.. it says CRAP Painter... not crappy.. read!

PaemrI
07-08-2004, 10:08 PM
Here is another one. Still trying to explore different styles etc. Hope your eyes won't hurt from the contrast. approx 1h 45 min.






http://paemri.50megs.com/images/laststand22.jpg

Supervlieg and Drumwhore, nice work!

Garma
07-08-2004, 10:13 PM
BG|Blank: cool lighting
Supervlieg: glad to see you're back in. cool piece, tou could've set the monster on fire to emphasize the concept, but still a nice effort!
Drumwhore: excellent colors and nice details

jalingo
07-08-2004, 10:22 PM
50 Mins. in Photoshop CS + Wacom.

http://www.geocities.com/lingowizard/last_one.jpg

Ronski
07-08-2004, 10:33 PM
1hr10mins Painter/Wacom

http://img72.photobucket.com/albums/v220/kieronh/DSG/Hells-Last-Stand.jpg

Well thought I'd better do something as it was one I'd suggested, another go with the oils in Painter, almost all done with the Glazing Flat Brush at various opacities & sizes, oh those are meant to be torch lights on the hill side, last rousing speech kind of thing.

Think I should carry on using the oils I dunno? :sad:

SteveV
07-08-2004, 10:38 PM
Keep it up. I've always liked using the oils in painter.

Supervlieg
07-08-2004, 10:46 PM
Supervlieg: glad to see you're back in. cool piece, tou could've set the monster on fire to emphasize the concept, but still a nice effort!

Youre right about the flames. I might add those. I plan on tweaking it a bit more tomorrow. I'd like to see more depth in the smoke. Nice to be back btw :)

Goro
07-09-2004, 12:54 AM
nice to see you back here supervlieg.
Great sketch as usual!

Kieronh:
Like your image! nice lighting


photoshop 40min

http://www.area-56.de/pics/cgtalk/sketchgroup/hells_last_stand.jpg

Art2
07-09-2004, 01:28 AM
1h45min, Painter8

It's a demon driven back to hell by heavenly spears...
only without the spears. It's already 3.30am :argh:, I'm going to bed.

Goro, Kieronh those are great!

http://www.empa.tv/marlon/sketch10.jpg

Matt_Forcum
07-09-2004, 02:49 AM
Great job Goro. But if I were you I'd warm up that red highlight on the rocky outcropping in the back. Its a bit on the cool side of the spectrum and looks outa place.

PowerChild
07-09-2004, 03:12 AM
I missed a few of these- I hope not to make that a habbit. Anyhoo, this is the second idea that I had- if I get a chance I'll throw together the first idea (totally different than this...)
http://www.skunkcabbageonline.com/images/pc_hell_04.jpg

I'm thinking God is the type of dude that's into ripping off his opponent's limbs. Viscious, that guy.

Great posts, if I haven't already mentioned it.
:twisted:

Oh- 30 min sketch, 2.5 hrs coloring and detail in Illy CS and PS CS.

nilk narf
07-09-2004, 03:20 AM
Wowee! That's pretty good PC! Lol on the bandages. :D

Biped
07-09-2004, 05:06 AM
Lots of great work!!! And great tropic.
but I Cant join until i get my new cpu below 65 degree's (at startup)

grouse (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=52462):nice clouds & details
Supervlieg (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=30957) :he he funny
Drumwhore (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=64833):looks great whitout rocks and dead bodies .
Goro (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=27712):nice as always
PowerChild (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=90934) Great work,nice colors

Scott Harris
07-09-2004, 05:16 AM
damn, lots of good stuff today... toem i love it.
hope i find enough time to get back into this tomarrow

...glad the book week is over...

nilk narf
07-09-2004, 05:29 AM
Goro's pic kills me! Those demons, ya know? :D Particularly that one sitting up there on the plateau. :D

SP1R1T'S pic also grabs me. :D

But they're all terrific!

2kre8
07-09-2004, 06:17 AM
Well here is my first time participating and I can see that everyone has done a good job.

Photoshop, 2.5 hrs


http://img19.photobucket.com/albums/v56/2kre8/devilman.jpg

pearblossom
07-09-2004, 06:18 AM
ps 7 and wacom, 50 min...some really nice stuff today--here i'm just trying to get the hang a' this.:) http://www.crackerfire.net/DailySketch/hellsLastStand.jpg

Supervlieg
07-09-2004, 08:41 AM
I Added some lava cracks to the devil in my pic, balrog style. I also added some more depth to the smokes. Im still not satified but what the hey.

I like your demons Goro. I like you minimalitic approach for that pic.

Art2: I like the hands on that demon.

augustus
07-09-2004, 09:13 AM
This is just something I've drawn without any idea on my mind:shrug: ~20 mins, ballpoint pen.
http://august.f2o.org/temp/demon.jpg

drawMonger
07-09-2004, 10:55 AM
What a wicked subject :twisted:

http://digitalcraft.com.au/misc/sg34-hellslaststand.jpg


painter / photoshop / wacom / 1hr30

Nice work all!!

zem
07-09-2004, 10:56 AM
Not much time during my lunchbreak. Wanted sort of a crayon look, since I feel that the whole heaven and hell thing is laughable at best..but I'm not looking for a teological debate. Did it, done it, not doing it tomorrow.:)
http://www.pixelsbyzem.com/images/Hellstand.jpg
Angels are sensitive about their wingspan you know....

Matt_Forcum
07-09-2004, 12:34 PM
haha great one drawmonger.

PowerChild
07-09-2004, 02:23 PM
Great concept drawmonger! Love the 555/666 reference.

This is actually the first idea that I came up with, but I submitted my second idea first. But I felt the need to throw this together too, so here she be.

http://www.skunkcabbageonline.com/images/pc_hell-2_04.jpg

By the by, I was inspired by the banter between those two chimpmunks from old Loony Tunes. Imagine a "Mel Blanc" style voice as you read the captions.

5 minute sketch, redrawn and colored/detailed in Illy 10, 45 min. 50 min total. Enter, bouncy dude... :bounce:

grouse
07-09-2004, 02:27 PM
okay, here's the finished sketch. I might make a fully fledged painting out of this concept. I dunno, what do you think, I couldn't be bothered to put in too many attacking soldiers, or fleeing demons!! But you get the idea!

http://universalacademy.co.uk/chris_stuph/hell_battle_2.jpg

don't know if the comets are too much? Also I added a starry background to give the impression of it happening on a cosmic scale!!

Cheers for all your nice comments :thumbsup: hope you like the final sketch just as much!

PowerChild
07-09-2004, 02:27 PM
I need to give a shout out to grouse- your style rocks my monitor.

Selvagem
07-09-2004, 07:52 PM
Grouse... did you use photo reference?

grouse
07-10-2004, 10:40 AM
@selvagem : unfortunately not, I think it would have been quicker and just as good if I had!! I think I spent about 2 + hours on the clouds alone, then something crappy like 40 minutes on the rest...which I'm not too happy about! I think I should have put more of a "demonic" army in. I spent too much time on the clouds in my oppinion, anyways, they changed a bit between the first post and the last post, (thus prooving i didn't use photo's!), and i would be really surprised if anyone could find any photos of clouds which looked like that :D

pasto
07-10-2004, 12:13 PM
30 mn painter/photoshop

http://pasto.tv/devil.jpg

Dargon
07-10-2004, 01:18 PM
Well, I know it's late, and I'm not even all that happy with it as a sketch, but I did it before the deadline, I just did it at work where I can't upload to the net, and since I actually did it, I might as well post it.

35 minutes, Wacom, Photoshop.

http://www.daveclement.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/LastStand.jpg

AGYoutcast
07-10-2004, 06:02 PM
Wacom+Painter+Photoshop 1:30 Hours

Salu2!!!!!!!!!

http://idd01z6t.eresmas.net/infiernoweb.jpg

tservo
07-11-2004, 12:06 AM
Wow! Nice work AGYoutcast! I've just been searching the web for tips on painting fire, and then I come across that! Very believable, but still very painterly.

Between you and grouse, we got a workshop happening in this thread.

TeoM! First post and well done! I had the same idea (probably got it from the ONION story about the tenth circle of hell) but couldn't figure out how to pull it off without needing to explain the gag. Got it right away!

Ilikesoup
07-11-2004, 04:14 AM
"Hellcat's Last Stand"

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v236/ilikesoup2/094a76cc.gif

Somebody doesn't want to go to the V-E-T.

I had this mostly done on time :rolleyes: but hated it, so I just took another look, touched it up and here it is. 2 days or 2 hours with photoshop, depending on how you look at it.

Nice work, everybody. Fun topic too.

DanubuKa
07-11-2004, 06:33 AM
Just got a tablet and well here is my first go on it ever, I have a new found respect for everyone who uses one now, I found it very difficult and have a long way to go to being competent with it.

30min PS/tablet

http://digitalcraft.com.au/misc/mark/hell.jpg

SteveV
07-11-2004, 08:13 AM
dont' start flaming.. it says CRAP Painter... not crappy.. read!


What on earth are you talking about? I don't flame anyone.

Petty semantics mean nothing, you call it crap or crappy. I don't see the difference. ;)

grouse
07-11-2004, 11:50 AM
i think he means crap painter, as in "I'm a crap painter" rather than crappy painter, as in "that crappy painter program".

Ilikesoup
07-11-2004, 03:11 PM
Petty semantics mean nothing, you call it crap or crappy. I don't see the difference. ;)
I took Rikaro's "crap Painter is so hard to get used to" as "Oh crap, Painter is so hard to get used to." Anyway, since we can't call our own work "crap" and we can't call software "crap", let's just outlaw all use of the word "crap". Of course, then only outlaws will say "crap". Crap. :sad:

SteveV
07-12-2004, 05:39 AM
No problemo, I didn't understand what he was driving at. My latteral thinking is a bit off, I've got a bad cold that just can't shake off.

stephan.s
07-13-2004, 07:33 PM
Grouse:
That's redicolous. Judging from your other works, you simply aren't able to paint all that. And if for some strange reason you hid all your talent from us until today it would still take days to paint in that level of detail.

Even teh Mullins wouldn't be able to paint that in 2 hours and some minutes. And you are nowhere near that.

It's always sad to see people like you post this stuff. And I don't understand why people are doing this. And I probably never will...cause you simply get nothing off of it. Except for maybe a ban every now and then and some attention from people you never saw and will probably never meet. But is that worth the effort? After all it took you 2 hours to slap these photos together. :D

Goro, AGYoutcast: Great work!!

mmm bye

Selvagem
07-13-2004, 08:08 PM
Grouse:
That's redicolous. Judging from your other works, you simply aren't able to paint all that. And if for some strange reason you hid all your talent from us until today it would still take days to paint in that level of detail.

Even teh Mullins wouldn't be able to paint that in 2 hours and some minutes. And you are nowhere near that.

It's always sad to see people like you post this stuff. And I don't understand why people are doing this. And I probably never will...cause you simply get nothing off of it. Except for maybe a ban every now and then and some attention from people you never saw and will probably never meet. But is that worth the effort? After all it took you 2 hours to slap these photos together. :D
OMG thank god i wasn't the only one who couldn't swallow this.

I been watching this forum for a little while and seeing keeners big up work like this and just WAITING for the moment that someone called them on it...

at first glance i thought, hey maybe someone IS this good... nothing seems impossible to me these days given the amount of really hype stuff i saw from these forums, but after looking at this I really had to know... plus i never really lookd close at Grouses' sketch threads til' you said anything.

but i'd have to say i agree.. given the grasp of depth and perspective in grouse's previous figure drawings, i find it hard to believe that he's any better at depth and shape in clouds.

[i think i've swallowed alot watching the progress of some work over these threads]...

Sir-Patroclo
07-13-2004, 09:01 PM
I been watching this forum for a little while and seeing keeners big up work like this and just WAITING for the moment that someone called them on it...


That's redicolous. Judging from your other works, you simply aren't able to paint all that.


So... what now? should the angry mob go get their torches and pikes?

Even if Grouse is claiming something he didn't do, all he's getting is some patting on the back, and he'll know he doesn't deserve it. But maybe say "you suck so much, no way you could paint something that good" and "yey, let's hang somebody!" is a little harsh, I think.

Or maybe I just should shut up...

Greetings

Sir Patroclo

SteveV
07-13-2004, 09:14 PM
I'm with Patrocio on this, what can you gain by calling Grouse out on this? Are you doing it for his benefit or your own?

To me a repainted cloud photo is obvious, so what, I've been an illustrator for twenty years and have seen some of the best incorporate whatever they needed to get the job done. Makes no big deal to me.

Carry on Grouse.

stephan.s
07-13-2004, 09:18 PM
Well, I just think it sucks claiming things you didn't do. And he really overdid in a weird kind of way. I mean.... these are photos -_-

And you probably know the stories of those jerks who get jobs with other peoples work. So these kind of things aren't as mild as they seem.
This of course is a different ball of wax, but still it sucks. Especially for the other people who posted in this thread. (no, I didn't)

That's all.

And if you give the people the options of either patting his back a bit or flaming him, I'd say we do the latter one. But I simply don't care enough to do so. And I wouldn't have said a thing in the first place, if he didn't claim so blatantly that he didn't even use photo reference.

SteveV
07-13-2004, 11:08 PM
I've never heard of anyone getting a job based on someone elses work Stephan, that scheme would fail as soon as the artist was asked to produce a piece of the quality they stole.

As a person who has employed quite a few artists over the years, I think you'll find when the fraudulant artist is asked to draw a certain image, the truth will come out. I've never been fooled, but I've also employed people who work from or over photos to create stunning work.

stephan.s
07-13-2004, 11:30 PM
There have been numberous people who applied for and even got a job with ripped of or fake work. I remember a case that was made public in sijun a couple of years ago. It was pretty huge. I dunno the names involved anymore though. Maybe someone can help me out there.
Every couple of months there are rip off sightings there too.
And just today a lecturer at my university who has worked as director in the industry for years told us about a cameraman who got a job with only ripped off musicvideos and tv ads on his reel. He was fired as soon as they found out of course and got blacklisted.

Anyway, that doesn't belong here. Since that doesn't have anything to do with grouse.

I only say that he sucks, because he claimed to have done something which he obviously didn't.
I'm not saying photoart is bad or whatever. I just say that you should have the guts and be honest about your thing.

When you do photoart. That's fine. But when you do it and repeatedly say you didn't use any photos at all. That's just plain wrong.
And you probably wouldn't want somebody like that when you are hiring as well. Or what?

Matt_Forcum
07-14-2004, 12:14 AM
well considering that this is just a lighthearted sketch forum, we should just forgive and forget. as with anything people post, you have to assume they are telling the truth, and when someone bends that truth, it is unfortunate.

Heck, I may not even be creating the work That I am posting! I could be stealing it off of my younger sisters computer, or forcing a geneticlly enhanced monkey to do my work for me.

You never know.

TeoM
07-14-2004, 12:23 AM
I agree that plagerizing/lying about references are horrible things to do, but perhaps we should give the man a chance to defend himself before taking this debate further?

Ephesus, I always wondered who snuck in those microscopic "Help Me" lines in your pictures.

Selvagem
07-14-2004, 12:43 AM
So... what now? should the angry mob go get their torches and pikes?

Even if Grouse is claiming something he didn't do, all he's getting is some patting on the back, and he'll know he doesn't deserve it. But maybe say "you suck so much, no way you could paint something that good" and "yey, let's hang somebody!" is a little harsh, I think.

Or maybe I just should shut up...

no i'm not saying get the torchs and pikes..

in some ways I do feel like that is like asking why we should point out fraudulant images in the Machine Flesh challenges tho...

fine its not the same.. its the sketch forum, but i think people appreciate being able to come into these challenges on even footing given the vast pool of talent like yourself, or StevenV or Goro etc... people here are trying to advance not regress...

I remember thinking to myself during the whole Machine Flesh thing "this is the FIRST digital rendering i've ever tried to do... i'm on CGTalk and I'm trying to "compete" with guys who have been around for years... and OMG LOOK HERE'S FRANCIS TSAI!!". I felt like a joke.

especially given that there are rookies like myself posting on here who haven't started their career, and VETERANS like yourself and StevenV who have been working for over 20 years.. i'd just like to be able to think that the forums would be good at sussing out talent, legit and non.

besides i wasn't saying he sucked. i just asked if he used a photo. and then he said he didn't.

and then i didn't reply because if he says so and everyone else buys it, well i don't have to personally. Now people say they think he did use a photo and I totally agree.

On the one hand like Steven V says... use a photo... I agree... photoreference is awsome. if you get the job done great, but just be honest about whether or not you use one. You had to on the CGChallenge, you should here.

i think its only fair to be honest about it all... [on that note i am slowly starting to think mb i should photoreference MORE... but i always think that and never do... my bad]

SP1R1T
07-14-2004, 01:41 AM
And if you give the people the options of either patting his back a bit or flaming him, I'd say we do the latter one. But I simply don't care enough to do so. And I wouldn't have said a thing in the first place, if he didn't claim so blatantly that he didn't even use photo reference.
Moot point. Flaming is unnecessary or excessive attacks on a person or their character. Unless this is a really unique forum, its against policy (i.e. da rules).

Therefore, you aren't given the choice of patting the back or flaming him. You're given the choice of patting the back or ignoring him.

It's a very important distinction. The former degenerates forums into personal attacks (i.e. "I've seen how you draw and you ain't that good.") The latter keeps things civil.

If someone is faking a sketch here, he's only hurting himself. His lies are his responsibility, and if there are any consequences, he'll face them.

This forum isn't competitive (for anything of value, anyway.) Nobody is going to get a job based on the posts here alone, let alone the the claims of methodologies made within. A photo-artist passing off his work as sketches would be a tad dissappointing, but would be no threat to anyone, least of all a University student.

DanubuKa
07-14-2004, 03:50 AM
Wow, this is really heavy.

Never thought I would see this level of flaming on this forum.
Grouse: Honesty is the best policy, not saying that your not being honest or anything I have done paintings in the past where I just totally got an amazing result and suprised myself and others, even if it is a Photo manipulation I can see that you have brought it together with skill and balance, and that you have a great deal of potential.
If you are telling the truth I would take the flamming as a mighty complement, and if you were not: dont be put off the drawing, but remember that photograpers are artists aswell and it is not fair on them or on other artists which invest heavy amounts of time into their work.
well that is my two cents worth!

p.s. I vote for no more tantrum like flamming!

Supervlieg
07-14-2004, 07:32 AM
I dont mind people using photo-references, most artist do to get the best results.

Using Manupulated photo's is a different matter imo, since this is the daily sketch forum. And it is about improving our sketching skills, not our photo manipulating skills. If people do choose to use photo-refs, they should say so.

I dont know if Grouse used a photo or if he didn't. I'll leave that up to him. Anyway, on with the show!

Matt_Forcum
07-14-2004, 01:26 PM
Ephesus, I always wondered who snuck in those microscopic "Help Me" lines in your pictures.
microscopic "Help Me" lines? that darn monkey! I TOLD HIM NOT TO TRY ANY FUNNY STUFF!

grouse
07-14-2004, 10:24 PM
woah woah woah

I've been away for a bit, so I've missed this.

I don't know what I can do or say to proove that I did this painting. I can only point out some previous work, if anyone bothered to check some of my previos threads they would have found this one, it's a long time ago now, but I found doing clouds came rather natuarally. Also you can see some of the techniques which i used to create this one. I like the top right corner the most. And again in both this image and the image in my previous thread I believe I have made the clouds too small : http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114518

I mean, I can't make you believe i did any of these, but I am damn disappointed that you dare to call me a cheat, and someone who claims others works as there own. Because thats one mighty big insult, especially in this case where you've got it wrong. I painted a cloud scene, placed some flilters and the like on it to get the correct colouring, i then started to add the soldiers, and had the idea of placing howling faces in the foreground, which i kinda gave up on!! But anyways, this is my work. I hope that everyone can see this, and can also see why I'm so ****ing pissed off.

I would hope that some people would appolagise. But maybe that would be beyond them!

EDIT : and now I'm ****ing pissed off, because I believed this one of my best works, and i won't get anything for it, i thougt at the least I might have the chance of getting the daily sketch for that day a bit of recognition. But oh look, because I've been called up no one is voting for me. Damn it man, this is annoying.

Ronski
07-14-2004, 11:29 PM
Grouse I wont comment on what other people have said.

Just to clarify, are you saying you didn't use any photographic material (yours or found) as either reference or in the piece itself? If you didn't then it does seem a big jump from your other works (yes I checked your threads) & had a look through here http://universalacademy.co.uk/chris_stuph/.

However in saying that, it could mean two things, either you did use reference (which isn't a bad thing by the way) or you've made a really big jump in your Photoshop skills which is great :thumbsup: Other people have posted photo-manipulations here before & didn't get flamed for it so I don't quite get what the big fuss is about, regardless of if it is or not, only you can say.

Surely this forum is all about self-improvement & sketching - all strides forward should be encouraged :D Either way it's a nice pic.

Anyway, just my 2 pence worth, roll on the next sketches.
Kieron

Selvagem
07-14-2004, 11:47 PM
woah woah woah

I've been away for a bit, so I've missed this.

I don't know what I can do or say to proove that I did this painting. I can only point out some previous work, if anyone bothered to check some of my previos threads they would have found this one, it's a long time ago now, but I found doing clouds came rather natuarally. Also you can see some of the techniques which i used to create this one. I like the top right corner the most. And again in both this image and the image in my previous thread I believe I have made the clouds too small : http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=114518

I mean, I can't make you believe i did any of these, but I am damn disappointed that you dare to call me a cheat, and someone who claims others works as there own. Because thats one mighty big insult, especially in this case where you've got it wrong. I painted a cloud scene, placed some flilters and the like on it to get the correct colouring, i then started to add the soldiers, and had the idea of placing howling faces in the foreground, which i kinda gave up on!! But anyways, this is my work. I hope that everyone can see this, and can also see why I'm so ****ing pissed off.

I would hope that some people would appolagise. But maybe that would be beyond them!

EDIT : and now I'm ****ing pissed off, because I believed this one of my best works, and i won't get anything for it, i thougt at the least I might have the chance of getting the daily sketch for that day a bit of recognition. But oh look, because I've been called up no one is voting for me. Damn it man, this is annoying.
well that thread convinced me.
i feel stupid...
I apologize.

you said you didn't photoreference, i should have just believed you.
like i said, i'm starting to feel I ought to photoreference more now anyway..

the coulds were nice enough for me to think it was a photo... especially the right bottom corner..

stephan.s
07-15-2004, 02:27 AM
That other image is not nearly as good as the one you posted in this thread.

You didn't convince me at all. But I bet you could care less. :)
Well,.... maybe you are some kind of Wunderkind and made a giant leap in a couple of days/weeks and maybe you painted all the clouds and the howling faces in 2 hours or so. But for me that is so far out that I can't believe that. Your pompeii images for example, although nice, show not enough understanding of value, form or color to create something like this.
I'm really eager to see your next images though. Really. Maybe you can convice me with that. Or even a big version of that cloud image?

Hmm...I am not apologizing for calling you a liar. But I do apologize for how I reacted here. It would have been better to mail you about it or so. I doubt that it would have had the same impact on you though. Well, I was just too upset I think.

So I agree with Kieronh, roll on the next sketches!
Time will tell anyway I guess... in some way :)

One last time... to clarify. I didn't complain about people using photos or photoref (hell, I did use photoref for a load of my early images myself) to create art. I complained about people who repeatedly lie about what they do.

DanubuKa
07-15-2004, 03:08 AM
Take the Flaming as a complement Grouse, I can imagine how this must have frustrated you, even though I kept my mind open to both sides.

I offer an apology!

Fear not those who argue but those who dodge.
Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach

nilk narf
07-15-2004, 04:16 AM
LAST STAND; 1/2 HOUR; AI & PS:
http://home.earthlink.net/~margoalexander/basket.jpg

GuyIncognito
07-15-2004, 04:48 AM
nilk, is that from the saying "Hell in a handbasket"?

Nice work anyway! :thumbsup:

SteveV
07-15-2004, 04:49 AM
Lol nilky, hell in a handbasket.

nilk narf
07-15-2004, 05:22 AM
Thanks guys! :)

grouse
07-15-2004, 10:13 AM
the damage has been done

SteveV
07-15-2004, 10:33 AM
Don't worry about it, if people are talking about your work you have a much bigger audience than if they are not.

Greater artists than you have been discredited by their peers; "William Bouguereau is unquestionably one of history's greatest artistic geniuses. Yet in the past century, his reputation and unparalleled accomplishments have undergone a libelous, dishonest, relentless and systematic assault of immense proportions. His name was stricken from most history texts and when included it was only to blindly, degrade and disparage him and his work"

Dargon
07-15-2004, 10:41 AM
You know, I'm not going to make judgements either way on whether or not this is photomanipulation, or painted or what. I'm just going to say, it doesn't even matter.

There is nothing wrong with photomanipulation especially when it comes to sketches. The idea of a sketch is to put forth an idea, an interpretation, really quickly. You could mess around for 2 hours painting a realistic skyline, but as far as a sketch goes, it's a waste of time if you could just source it from another photo!

You have to remember what's the point of a sketch. It's partially for practice, partially for roughing out a larger idea. In either case, working with photos is perfectly fine!

If you worked for a film company, and they wanted a few sketches of what a war between heaven and hell would look like, it'd make little difference if there was a bit of photo in there. And, you'd get it done quicker, so you could do other ones. No harm, no foul.
And it's not just for beginners, or for rushed pieces. The very best matte painters in the world source photography. Why? Partly due to time, partly due to the reality of it.

Garma
07-15-2004, 11:03 AM
I don't know what I can do or say to proove that I did this painting. you can, by posting wips and separated layers and close ups. Anyway, I'm not judging, staying far from it, but I think enough has been said. Maybe it's time to cut it guys..

[edit] the plan was to devote my 2500th post to a really cool sketch which would rock cgtalk all over.. bummer.

stephan.s
07-15-2004, 11:37 AM
If only one more of you is telling here how photomanipulation or photoref is legitimate, I'm gonna flip out

This argument is NOT(!) about people using photos or photoref to create art. It's about people who lie about what they do.

Matt_Forcum
07-15-2004, 01:37 PM
calm down stephan....it will be ok...:thumbsup:

Goro
07-15-2004, 01:38 PM
I agree with you stephan!

Maybe it's wrong to post more on this situation now but I just have to share my thoughts.
It's not about photomanipulation! That is not the problem
The problem is that, as stephan already said couple of times, that people lie.
The thread you posted does not convice me either grouse.
And I can't believe it either that someone is able to paint such clouds this fast.
The difference to your other stuff is too big.
To learn values and anatomy takes a really long time. It isn't something you can learn in
a few days (imo). To me it is obvious that you used some photos.
And I think I can prove it.

I took a closer look at your hell image and you can see the film grain of the photo.
And that is just the beginning.
You obviously used the clonestamp tool for copying some parts of the cloud marked
with red circles. So the question is why you use the clone stamp tool for the clouds
when you are able to paint photorealistic clouds by yourself? You didn't even scale
it... it is just copied. I tried it in photoshop. You can copy paste the marked areas
and it matches perfectly....
If you look closer you even find the seams of the photos also marked with red circles.
I think the faces are also photos that you edited in just changing the layermode.
The Anatomy is too perfect compared to your pompei picture for example.
Think you used a stars background that you put with layermode screen on the hole image.
That's why there are bright white points everywhere. I think I could find a lot more
if I spend more time on analyzing your picture. But I think there is no need for that.

http://www.area-56.de/pics/cgtalk/hell_battle_proof.jpg


What you did makes me sad. Really!
The sketchroup has a really great athmosphere. You can see everyone improve their
skills day by day. It's not a place for cheaters. If you said that it's only a photo composite
all of this would not have happened. Now you're even complaining that no one believes
you anymore. All I can say is...no wonder!
And the damage has been done!? maybe by you!

I recomend you to be more honest in the future otherwise you will get in big trouble.
That's all I had to say!

Goro

Selvagem
07-15-2004, 01:56 PM
holyshiznitz goro:eek:

I'm in awe.

i'm so confused...

To tell you the truth by this point i think i've dedicated far too much brain power as to how i feel about it...

if its one big lie then I feel this has been one giant crock of crapola and i'm pretty pissed at having been manipulated to feel bad about what was probably an initial gut reaction that was probably legit to begin with... not only by Grouse, but by everyone who poo poo'd that reaction in the first place...

if its wasn't... than by this point regardless i've definitely dedicated too much of my precious time on it...

but wow, i gotz ta say, you present a killer case

i'd hate to have to go to court against mr.CSI investigator GORO...

cuz that was hardcore

[can you get a full picture out of a pixel frame like they do in CSI too?!?]:P

*Hey... maybe that could be a new sketch topic.. Goro: CSI

Ilikesoup
07-15-2004, 02:22 PM
I'm impressed beyond words, too. Goro has a promising future in forensic science.
I'm even more impressed with how he took the time and effort to build (imo) an irrefutable case to support his opinion. Many thanks for bringing some sanity to the situation.

Selvagem -- "Innocent until proven guilty." I wouldn't feel too bad about being duped since I think you handled the situation well -- you asked, then held your opinion to yourself. When all was said and done you gave him another benefit of the doubt.

There's been a surprising amount of infighting in this one thread, first the "crap painter" misunderstanding and now this. Perhaps we should avoid "hell" topics for awhile?

RobertoOrtiz
07-15-2004, 03:18 PM
Guys guys, enough.
Lets get back to doing great drawings.
-R

grouse
07-15-2004, 03:43 PM
Okay here is the truth: I did indeed use a photo, i used a photo for the commet...weird eh, but i was tired. Thus the seams, I also used the clone tool alot. And I'm afraid I did lie, because I did use a photo as reference for part of the cloud bank in the picture. I am sorry for misguiding you. However I did not want people to get the idea that I had just posted an image that I had found on the web, because I hadn't, and had spent along time, manipulating and changing the image. (I am presently trying to find the original picture so you can see)

I wasn't disputing the charges that I had used photomanipulation, what I was disputing was the fact I was claiming things you didn't do. I did this, and you'd better believe it. I would like you to try and do something as ddamned good as this, using as many photos as you want. I believe this was a malicous attack out of jelousy rather than anything else.

All the faces and soldiers are my own work, and also alot of the cloud is painted, tho there are bits that are photo, tho not original photo, manipulated and transformed i might add.

link to images used : http://www.littlemesahouse.com/copyright_applies_to_all_images/Fall%2003/Sky%20Color31.jpg

there was anohter blue one, but i can't find it.

So there you go, I can manipulate photos and use them, and for that I am persecuted and and attacked. This was just one big trumped up witch hunt. I hope you are all happy with yourselves.

Supervlieg
07-15-2004, 04:10 PM
Just state you used a photo next time and everything will be fine.

Anyway, enough allready. Start drawing!

Sir-Patroclo
07-15-2004, 04:18 PM
Selvagem: Grouse... did you use photo reference?

Grouse: @selvagem : unfortunately not, I think it would have been quicker and just as good if I had!! I think I spent about 2 + hours on the clouds alone, then something crappy like 40 minutes on the rest...which I'm not too happy about! I think I should have put more of a "demonic" army in. I spent too much time on the clouds in my oppinion, anyways, they changed a bit between the first post and the last post, (thus prooving i didn't use photo's!), and i would be really surprised if anyone could find any photos of clouds which looked like that


Nobody said you stole the final image from other person. "Claiming things you didn't do" obviously refers to "use photos as reference", wich -as you said yourself- you did. The accusations you state in your last post are completely out of place, in my opinion, and I think we as a group shouldn't keep arguing based on them.

Can't we just seal this demonic topic away? I agree with Ilikesoup, this is what you get when you invoke hell! :D

And to Selvagem, I don't think that anything manipulative or ill thought has been posted against you or anybody else, just different opinions stated with respect and good will.

Let's get back to sketching!

Salut!

Sir Patroclo

Selvagem
07-15-2004, 05:24 PM
once again.. too much time and effort.

[I could've spent all this quality time arguing on the computer by doing other things with my girlfriend that were much more... inane :P... come on!!! your wasting the time i would've wasted in a much more entertaining and unproductive ways!]

ilikesoup: well glad to hear i didn't come off as a jerkface! :P
Sir Patroclo: no thats true. I meant manipulative more in the way of speaking of mr.grouse making me feel bad for accusing/bringing it up in the first place... which it all turns out to have been a legitimate and valid thing to do in the first place.. and for which I probably never should've felt bad for anyway..

tho even being justified i'm kinda feeling bad because once again I could be doing much more interesting things than typing about it now... :P

ah well.
here it is out in the open.

now i can eat my porridge in the morning without a bad taste in my mouth...

pwong
Selvagem

DanubuKa
07-16-2004, 12:12 AM
To think you asked for an apology Grouse...............Shame!


Insist on yourself; never imitate. Your own gift you can present every moment with the cumulative force of a whole life's cultivation; but of the adopted talent of another you have only an extemporaneous, half possession.

Ralph Waldo Emerson

grouse
07-16-2004, 01:44 PM
I am truly sorry.

In my first reply I thought you were accusing me of posting someone elses work as my own, which you can understandably see that I would be quite enraged and annoyed about, which is why i was aksing people to appolagise.

I'm sorry that I ddin't say that I used a photo originally. However I thought about why i did lie and realised that it was because I believe that you are prejudiced against photomaipulation. You seem to think it is a lesser art form, and would therefore not find favour in your eyes. Do not take this the wrong way, i do not want to anger anyone else, but by the way you reacted you obviously believe that the art i preduced isn't good because i used a photo along the way.

I fully admit that i used a photo in the course of the making of the sketch and I am truly sorry for discieving you. I hope that this wont cause poeple to ignore me, or dismiss my work, whether it is photomanipulation or not.

Yours sincerely Grouse. :sad:

here's a bit more photomanipulation to show you that I am truly sorry :

http://www.idioc.co.uk/cgi-bin/G2/cgi-bin/INCOMING/sad-ollie.gif

Geta-Ve
07-16-2004, 01:51 PM
for the love of god....... (kinda funny saying that in this thread.. haha)

I dun care what you used grouse, that picture ROCKED!

And, only you really know what you did do and what you didn't, and if you didn't do what you say you did then shame, if you did then woot! lol

Thats all there is to say, your a big boy, you know whats right and wrong. :)

Great Work either way, EVERYONE!

Biped
07-16-2004, 06:04 PM
Forgive and forget,no hard feelings.
I still think its a nice pic.
And i dont think ppl in here will ignore you, or dismiss your work.
So keep it up.

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