maya interface petition

[CIM]

is there a petition regarding improving mayas interface?

like this at least:

http://www.pixtur.de/text_maya_redesign.ger.html#mozTocId582982

something like blender would be nice. it is fast and clean.

Are you nuts? :rolleyes:

Anyway, that link has been posted in the past and most Maya users pretty much didn't like it (the concept). I sure don't.

If you don't like Maya's UI, then go use a program with a UI you like. You seem to like Blender; go use that.

[womanonfire]

jeez CIM
_what_ is your problem?

[Lyr]

His "problem" is that he doesn't want Alias to waste resources implementing something users don't want.

[womanonfire]

:rolleyes:
ah...................

[Vushvush]

his problem is that he trolls this forums like I've pointed out numerous times bashing any critique of Maya/Alias.

Last time that discussion came up it seemed people were slightly in favor of interface improvements, but no one felt it was that important. I've talked to people in the know about this and the theory is, if you want a new interface just make it. Maya's UI is as customizable as can be. Someone out there should just make a plugin that replaces the current interface. If it's any good and not buggy perhaps said person could make a buck or two :L)

[pasto]

Well, as a user, I would like to see Maya with an elegant and usefull interface. It wouldn't be a waste of ressource at all. People making beautifull things like to use a beautifull tool. Moreover the work of Thomas mann is impressively good, very presice and full of meaning.

pasto

[Goon]

I wouldn't mind workflow improvements. I would mind them if they took maya anywhere in the direction of blender. MANY people do not like that program and its interface (obviously myself included). It would be a mistake to emulate it. As for the suggestions, I wouldn't mind some of them, but most of the ones listed are more eye candy than helpful additions. Making maya colorful is not that beneficial. Plus, it seems to me that many of the suggestions move away from the standard, mel based windowing system, which, since that is one of the cores of maya and is very useful, I do not think would be wise.

And CIM is a troll, so just ignore his comments.

[klingspor]

Well, as a user, I would like to see Maya with an elegant and usefull interface. It wouldn't be a waste of ressource at all. People making beautifull things like to use a beautifull tool. Moreover the work of Thomas mann is impressively good, very presice and full of meaning.

pastoA tool need not be beautiful to create beatiful work.

Think of Maya as a pencil, just something that enables you to do your work. Would you really care for what your pencil looks like? Is there anything wrong with a normal pencil that just does what it's supposed to and lets the artist create the beauty instead of trying to be beatiful itself?

[Atwooki]

stefanminning:
A tool need not be beautiful to create beatiful work. Well, not quite true.... tho' in theory it should be; As I draw a lot, I am not too overly disturbed by, for instance the color of my pencil when working; but an ugly or aesthetically displeasing interface can be very offputting, at least to me :shrug:
probably because it's more 'in your face' than a pencil's casing.

Why is CIM a troll, and where does the phrase come from? >curious<

Atwooki

[rock]

Maya's interface is simply outdated and inconsistent. The treeview is not up to par; the icon colours are still in 256-colour mode, where 16Million colour is now in essence a standard; Mel is so outdated. Maya has to have aethetic value. The new Trak editor in Maya 6 looks so out of place with the rest of the interface.

You can't go and buy a house without holding some of its aethetic and ergnonomic values accountable.

[JasonOsipa]

Maya is far and away the best all-around most robust tool (as a whole) to make 3d thingies, whatever they may be. It holds this title mostly to do with it's power and not it's elegance.

They do have UI problems, and big ones at that, but the biggest are not cosmetic, they are logic problems. (I've read that doc and it has *some* higher level ideas, but it is largely a cosmetic proposal. "Where things are" etc)

If Alias decides to spend time on UI (and they won't, at this point, it would be a detriment to the already huge user-base to have to re-acquaint), they should clearly spend it on default behaviours, and passing situation evaluation to the program, and take it off of users as it sits now. The one "cosmetic" thing it needs is an effort towards greater parity in tools and options, as well as naming consistency; here's what I mean:

They need to have Maya do more thinking about what the current situation is, in that, they can get rid of duplicate menu items and clutter like one of the biggest offenders: "extrude". It's in like 6 places. The way it is now, everything's broken up by oject type and then the "part" of that thing has it's own tools. That's goofy. I have to 1) evaluate the kind of object I have then 2) evaluate the kind of component I have, THEN I can extrude IF I got it right. That doesn't sound like much, but it adds up, and just so happens to be something mel can figure out pretty 'durn easy, so it should.

"Hey Mel! Take the kind of selection I have, evaluate that and give me the kind of extrude I need". Don't make me surf different menus and then throw errors when I do it wrong. As an artist, I just think "EXTRUDE WHAT I HAVE SELECTED", not nurbs->extrude, poly->face->extrude, just extrude. Just do it, you whiny... rasafrasa.... why I oughtta...

I've, on my own system set it up to do that and tied it all into duplicate, too. Ctrl+d in obj mode = duplicate, in nurbs curve->extrude, poly edge->extrude etc etc etc. It's not hard. 9 times out of 10 a new user tries to extrude something, they select the component, and hit ctrl+d. Instead of correcting them, just make that "right". You can't complain, it's a no-lose and easy to do.

Another Eg that drives me nuts is the stack trace that gets thrown if you have a poly object selected and then you hit 1,2 or 3. I STILL do this from time to time, not so much meaning to, but say, fat-fingering the w key. You know what? I did it wrong. I hit a nurbs/subdiv display smoothness button with a poly object selected. I'm sorry. Geez. Something that basic should really not throw up, what are in essence "popups". It should just go "Hmm. That's not a viable target for this operation. OH well. I guess life will go on" Even, if it MUST, hey, throw an error, or warning, but a STACK TRACE? gah.

Anyways, I literally do have 1,000 of these situations, examples, so many, that I believe Maya, all modules, could be efficiently and without clutter, condensed down into one (MAYBE two) modules.

So, Maya. Baby. If you're out there, and you're listening. We love you, but, you complain a lot. I'll learn to piss you off less, but sugar, you gotta meet me half way. Don't listen to those kids; that dress looks fine on you, you;re just "big boned" it's more your whininess that needs adjusting.

[og_reborn]

well yes this did come up like a week ago...and I responded there but I guess I'll say again...

I do agree that some of the changes just looked like making things more fancy and colorful, which I'm not personally for.
but some of those changes, namely the attribute editor, timeline, graph editor and channel box all look phenominally better and easier to understand (as a relatively new maya user.)

If that were a real working interface I would definitely be willing to pay for it.

Everone's biased in some way or another...but for a person who's been using maya for years and gotten used to the weird quirks in the interface (and believe me maya has plenty) to say "oh there's nothing wrong with the current interface they shouldn't change it" is a bit one dimensional in my opinion:shrug: I mean, of course you would think that because you're used to it. But think of it coming from a perspective of a person who just wants to be able to figure out how the program works a little more intuitively.

And frankly I agree with the guy when he pointed out that some things are just flat out impossible to see/read!

edit: just read your response jason and I agree wholeheartedly with you too.

[elvis75k]

Hey ya guyz if u like that kind of interface why don't you buy softimage xsi?
I love maya as is.. i just love to change my shelf icons every day.. And i recentely see maya on linux and the interface seems more hi-tech than winzoz.

[Jozvex]

Excellent post Jason!! I very much agree. I'm also amazed to see someone else say "rasafrasa", I thought only I did that.

I like Maya's interface the kind of boring way it is, hehe. I don't like how XSI has such huge fancy buttons that it requires a res of 1280x1024 just to fit everything in.

But definitely tons of tools should be compacted into each other! That would shrink the number of menus enormously.

:thumbsup:

[onlooker]

I saw that once before, but it looked better last time the way it was represented in here. It doesn't look as outstanding this time. I was really impressed last time.
It's not as appealing the way it's laid out on that page with all the crap. It's too much to go over. Plus it looks like a forum GUI. Kind of flat, and matted. Maybe I'm just used to OS X, and the windows version just looks that unappealing all the time. :scream:

[CIM]

Hey, I'm for improvements as much as the next guy, but saying Maya's interface should be redone, just to look flashy and modern, is just plain stupid. The majority of the Maya user base clearly doesn't want this or think it's worthwhile to spend time on.

[onlooker]

Hey, I'm for improvements as much as the next guy, but saying Maya's interface should be redone, just to look flashy and modern, is just plain stupid. The majority of the Maya user base clearly doesn't want this or think it's worthwhile to spend time on.

Well at least you don't anyway. That's for sure.

[roger3d]

I remmember I read articles about some old Softimage 3D users complaining about the "revolucionary" Maya interface, but in the end, many converted to it.

Softimage 3D users was saying something like, "hey our UI is good as it is". But XSI have been coping something here and there from Maya... or at least tried to adapt some ideas to their UI.

So, if Alias can create a new, better and revolucionary UI, why not?:)

For users of others 3D packages, it doesn't matter too much.
Because if Alias do it and it succeed, everybody will somehow copy and paste those ideas anyway...

[NUKE-CG]

I use Maya everyday, I have a diverse workflow, dependant soley on the task at hand, from modeling in full screen, animating with stacked panels, to UI Elements visible for other tasks (dynamics) where the pre-configured Shelf would be faster.

The problem for Maya's UI is it could connect/display more to the user, but due to oversized borders/buttons/layout they cannot. Having all UI Elements loaded reveals you with a menu, shelf of iconic commands, selection mode, snap mode, transform tools, panel sets, timeline/range/playback controls, script input/output, a helpline, and attributes on the selection.

Sure I make it sound like nothing, but all those take up a lot of space because of the way they have been placed, placed like they had to be grouped in their own little element. The timeslider/range slider/playback controls are guilty of this. The range slider, for example, takes up a lot of space for something which is used for 3 seconds every 10 minutes, if that. The timeline is adjustable in size to support higher wave-lengths which is great, but 95% of the time audio-syncing is not being done, taking up the amount of space it does by default is excessive, and positioning of the ranges is bizarre, I'm aware that it probably is intuiative in theory, but they really should be in one place instead of 'Well.. that's the start, so move them over there, and that's the end, so move them all the way over there', it doesn't work.

I quickly edited the bottom elements, resizing (not just downsizing, I enlarged some too) buttons that are used more, and got rid of redundant gaps.

IMAGE (http://aa.1asphost.com/NUKECG/Maya_Element.jpg) IMAGE 2 (http://aa.1asphost.com/NUKECG/Maya_Element_Large.jpg)

So you see it's half the size atleast, room for more viewport.

[sara_qq]

yes, this is exactly the problem with maya's interface. everything takes too much space.

other programs are more compact.

[Day-Dreamer]

yes, this is exactly the problem with maya's interface. everything takes too much space.

other programs are more compact.
takes too much space?
you can hide everything you want..
and hot keys:thumbsup:

[gmask]

yes, this is exactly the problem with maya's interface. everything takes too much space.

other programs are more compact.
try hitting ctrl spacebar and using the hotbox.. you won't have any problems with anythign usign too much space.

[Vushvush]

That's the idea exactly. This isn't about making it pretty and adding color and fancy buttons (although interface design and signage theory indicate that using color could be used as a benefit, not pure aesthetics) but rather improving functionality.

You guys mention the space that some of the interface takes which is true, but something no one mentioned is the depth of the interface. Having to dig deep through the interface to get to what you want is not productive. We all know how much fun it is to get to the component editor for example, or any of the rendering menus. All these should be one clikc away... maybe two.

I like for example the treatment given to the hypershade. Not having to go to the AE and instead having easy access to the most common shading node attributes is not just pretty, it's functional.

The timeline treatment is both easier to read and increases functionality.

But as I said, there is no reason someone can't redo this and offer it to the userbase as an extension.

[onlooker]

I have to agree with Vushvush. I thought that introducing elements of the Attribute editor into the HyperShade was a brilliant idea. I also liked the second revision of the channel box. (which I usually like to keep open) All of the interface was very functionality oriented and not a bunch of rouge, and lipstick. I was pretty floored by the thought that went into the changes. It seemed to add the correct solutions to optimize each area of the interface. I liked the majority of everything I saw. Actually, I liked every idea. Even though the current Maya interface is functional the Maya interface has to evolve eventually. It will start to look dated, and as superficial as that may sound it isn't superficial to add functionality in ways that are going to benefit the user, and excite the user base by creating a more efficient experience. I think it is as good a time as any for alias take a good look at what this guy did. There is not much in there that isn't totally cool conceptually. A few things could still be different, ( I still wonder about the time line) but for the most part I would like to see Maya evolve into this now that I have seen it. All I see is added functionality, and better management of existing space.

[Splin]

I've seen lot of ides expressed what I did like and some what I did not. But I would like to point out one aspect what has been not touched yet.
Maya runs on Windoze, Linux, Mac OSX and IRIX.
Grrr thats almost every OS on this planet(well almost) :)
To minimize all the quirks this means that gui needs to be portable. And thats exactly what maya is. Most of this discussion is from a view of normal user. Normal user I mean, its well known fact that every studio customizes the gui as they see it fit. For animator...for rendering..whatever. And that is where maya really shines! I can agree that the gui could be more directed to the *normal* user...guess your workflow a bit better cuz yes sometimes running around through various windows aint fun but I bet most of users are not ready to trade this *weakness* against something like xsi has today.
In right hands maya can be more productive/creative than anything else :)
Only if Alias decides to change something...let them do it...and I belive it cant be bad.
Maya GUI can be changed thru MEL..thats right..but this task is a bit too complicated for normal 3d guru. I see two possibilities: someone who really loves maya.. will make a third level app what makes gui customization really easy and straight forward so that every single soul can make that app look just like they want it.
Or someone who posess higher power will ask nicely studios to release their precustomized GUI's or something like that...grr ran out of ideas :)

At first when I took a look to this job what that guy did...I was amazed..wow! But as I investigated it more...soon I realized that this is not more than a beauty remake except some ideas. And thus I belive maya GUI should not be touched unless it adds something to the real functionality of the app and is there cuz it has real purpose. At least not cuz it makes the life of a newcomer easy, they can use some other app until they feel that they are ready.

[Sciatica]

The problem with redesigning the interface is the fact that everybodies ideas about what would work best.. what are commonly used functions.. whats easy and hard to find.. are all subjective opinions. If you all of a sudden change how all the functions are executed and such in Maya, your going to be interupting more than 50% of the users acustomed workflows.

I use Maya because it fits the way that I work best. Infact.. if they ever made any major changes to the interface, I know that I would have a very difficult time regaining my speed and productivity with their product.. and from the people I have met, combined with my general understanding of the average 3D artist.. people who work like me, are probably pretty common.
By all means, if somebody wanted to make a new UI plugin or something, I would be very curious to see it.. you never know if something is going to work better or worse until you try it.. but I think the case here, from my opinion is, "If it isnt broke, don't fix it" and despite what many people seem to believe.. Maya's interface is far from broken. Maybe.. "well loved" would be a better term ;)

[annaleah]

Nothing wrong with Mayas interface.....


Go create.....


Annaleah

[freddie]

If a GUI is easy to browse thru and easy to use why change it?
I don´t think the look is gonna make a program better.

just look at Blender, a more cluttered interface can´t be found :eek:

You can´t work fast if the GUI is hard to work with.

[Randolph]

I agree fully with the conservative party here.
Maya's interface may not look as stylish as interfaces by Kai Krause :argh: do, it may take some time for you to get used to it, but there's IMO no need to make major changes.
Imagine a remarkable changed UI (possibly without a go-back-to-default-look option :scream: ) - it may be easier to learn for newcomers, but for those who got used to it and have to work with it, it'd be just annoying.

[Atwooki]

Agreed with most recent posts:
A little austerity in the interface goes a long way to helping one concentrate on the job in hand -
and most of the icons are pretty enough and small enough not to be a distraction....

Atwooki

[MunCHeR]

I'll second that atwooki, does it matter what colour your engine block is? as long as you get from a to b in the fastest time possible.I love the maya interface, the combination of hotbox,hotkeys and dragging virtually anything your heart desires onto a shelf just rocks, if you dont like it learn some MEL and change it,(did someone say MEL is outdated?) must be some good drugs going around Aaaiigh. I dont know about the rest of you guys but I would prefer faster subd's over prettier icons anyday.Everybody has to prioritise things that includes Alias, after all they are running a business not a lemonade stand. Is it just me or does it seem like an awful lot of people are complaining about something that they have the power to change through MEL?

MunCH

[Atwooki]

MunCHeR:
that includes Alias, after all they are running a business not a lemonade stand. Nicely put :D
An erection doesn't count as "Personal Growth"Dammit! I've been mislead!

Atwooki

[sara_qq]

improvements here and there would be good.

just look at image studio's layers window. it is at least standard, not some crappy V to show which layer is active.

they can do it better than now. they are just scared of xsi adding too many new features and them just adding some interface improvements in the next release.

[gabio]

If a GUI is easy to browse thru and easy to use why change it?
I don´t think the look is gonna make a program better.

just look at Blender, a more cluttered interface can´t be found :eek:

You can´t work fast if the GUI is hard to work with. I may add a note here.
The blender interface is not as cluttered as you say. In fact, it's more simple than maya of 3dsmax. The problem all pp like you got is, they only look at it and say no! You don't even know how it work, what is the logic behind it. I tried maya or max, And i could not even add a cube the first time i fired it up. in blender it's there in you face: add-> mesh -> cube. Do you want an exemple? try to add a cube in max and edit it in 2 click. The entire blender interface is done to improve speed and reduce mouse move(which is long). Also, The present interface got so much new menus to replace all hidden hotkeys, you can work ala max with the mouse all the way(though it's less fast).
Here is a cote from a developer point of view on the original UI design(before the 2.3x series, the scary one).
UI design decisions

http://www.blender3d.org/cms/clear.gifhttp://www.blender3d.org/cms/clear.gifhttp://www.blender3d.org/cms/uploads/pics/screenshot_skate.jpg
With a 3D creation suite requiring many different but conceivable methods to make the complexity available for artists, most programs ended up with providing multiple modules, separating the workflow for artists based on tasks like 'animating' or 'material editing' or 'modeling'.

Based on our experience, as an animation studio, we didn't think this was natural nor followed the actual workflow of an art project.



Following the flow diagram as mentioned above, decided was to:

1. Base the UI on a non-overlapping non-blocking subdivision window system

2. Allow each subdivided 'window' in Blender to be hooked up with any 'editor' (= vizualization method), displaying any choosen type of data.

3. Implement a uniform usage of hotkey and mouse commands, that don't change meaning within different contextes.

4. Since it's an in-house tool, speed of usage had preference over ease of learning

Here you can read the entire design history:
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Blender_Architecture.336.0.html

In clean this mean: The blender data in organised in block you can interconnect. Each block can be edited in a particular windows type(ex: Mesh in the 3d view, IPO in the IPO windows etc..) The link between oblock make it in a way that what you'r editing is all on the same object.(ex: selecting a mesh object will lead you to edit the ipo block linked to it, or the shader linked to it.
In short, all the UI rely eavily on the data structure And if you'r not aware of this structure, how can you understand the ui workflow?
I may finish with this little question: Have you ever used it?

To answer the first post on maya. I think imho the best interface is a mix of the two: An intime way to work on the data structure but with the user friendly of maya(like automatisation of some long work).

[Vushvush]

damnit people .... how many times must this be repeated!?!?

The people who support the so called "Redesign" aren't looking at the colors and rounded buttons and saying "Hey! We want them pertty interface!"

We're just suggesting that there are some functionality ideas in his design that are in fact very good and useful. If any of you can say that the new hypershade, and specifically the minimal AE functionality in hypershade isn't a great idea then you are obviously either arguing for arguement's sake, or simple a blind Maya fan. To say that there is no room for improvement is simple not a logical statement. Be objective please or this discussion will go no where.

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.