Reuters: Programmer Sues VU Games for Overtime Pay

[Apollux]

Was just about time that something like these happened!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Pinoy McGee]

On an individual basis, anybody should be paid fairly for the amount of work they put in.

On an industry pov, if the court favors the workers, outsourcing countries will gain another competitive edge.

[bentllama]

If he is getting paid 'salary' he has no right to bitch...he knew what he was getting into when he signed on...


however...


If he was getting paid hourly, then he has all the reason in the world to fight.

[baaah888]

Well bertlama i think thats the wrong attitude to have about salerys, when you sign up, you sign up for the hours then you usually sign for working voluntary overtime, If you dont feel that you've been paid fairly then you have every right to sue, Esspecially since most games companies FORCE overtime,

One concern i've had was that when we worked out our salery of a friend divided by the total hours he worked (about 90 a week) it added up to less than minimum wage, BUT that place gives decent bonuses so it cancels out,

I hope the programmer wins, It'll hopefully prompt a massive overhaul in the industry, But it chances are it will get settled by VU paying the staff x ammount each, and we never hear about it.

The reason we have financial laws and employment laws is because all industrys trys to rip off its workers, and only after court cases do they get any better,

I mean look at countrys without these laws, and see that these people are in massive poverty, alot of the time.

[schmu_20mol]

If he is getting paid 'salary' he has no right to bitch...he knew what he was getting into when he signed on...


however...


If he was getting paid hourly, then he has all the reason in the world to fight.

quoted for total agreement

[Hugh]

When I got my current job, I was well aware that I was going to have to work long hours, and I was also well aware that I was being paid by the day rather than by the hour...

If the company never warned him what he might get into, then that's their fault - but he must have been pretty naive to not have realised....

I suspect (I haven't read the article, though) that he's a programmer who's been there a while, used to love it, and has grown to hate the games industry. It's been pissing him off for a while, and he's decided that, because he hates what he's doing, he's going to try and get more money out of the company. I certainly don't believe he didn't realise what he was getting into when he started there......

[baaah888]

It's not about getting into something and realising it, its about standards of living, and fair wages, Games companies are just doing it since they know they can get away with it, theres not many other industrys like ours where 12-16 hours are expected, in every other tried and tested industry, you would be laughed at for saying "we expect you to work 16 hour days without overtime" Sueing or unionisation is the only way things like this change, so im gonna support most case's

I want to say before i go on, im happy to work 12-16, hell even 30 hour shifts, and im happy to do this for months nearing crunch time, dont get me wrong, BUT i do expect to be rewarded fairly, something like, 3 weeks or a month extra holiday at the end of a 2 year project and a cut of royalties or a decent completion bonus would be fine for me, i'd be happy as pie,

But i do understand why people get annoyed when the management team drive in with new cars the day after your told bonuses can't be paid till review scores are in.


IF you read the article tho

Quote:

Aitken said he and his fellow "nonexempt programmers" have been ordered by managers to falsify timesheets to indicate they worked shorter days.

"Specifically, VUG managers have instructed NonexemptProgrammers to enter 8 hours for each workday regardless of the actual number of hours worked by an employee," the suit said.


Now that to me sounds a bit like bullying and blackmail, and needs to be sued over just to teach them a lesson

[Hugh]

I could have sworn I'd already replied to this post again, but it seems not...

Anyway....

As I said before, I've not read the article in question...

And that's a very good point - if this is the case, then he's got a good case... because it seems like they were falsifying the timesheets specifically so that the employees could not come back later and say they should have been paid more....

[halo]

the CG industry has been getting away with this for far too long...even on a salary theres no excuse for permanently threating people with the sack so they work for huge amounts of overtime. If you work out the starting wage in some companies then work out the overtime, you'll see your rewarded less per hour than macdonalds or tescos.

Some companies are getting so bad at it that they sack people before the bonuses are due, but then break employment law by hiring for the same position within six months, without approaching the person they made redundant.

They get away with it because there are so many green and talentless idiots pumped out of college and ready to do anything in cg at any cost that it puts pressure up the whole chain.

The whole industry needs a good cull especially at the moronic middle management level.

[JoeBananas]

I can fully understand why this guy is suing.

Its one of the reasons I got out of the games industry - you only get paid for 2/3 of the hours you actually do - yeah, so you get bonuses - but unless you're working on Grand Theft Auto, I doubt that a bonus would come close to even a standard salary for those extra hours you've worked, let alone overtime payments.

[SOPLAND]

If he is getting paid 'salary' he has no right to bitch...he knew what he was getting into when he signed on...


however...


If he was getting paid hourly, then he has all the reason in the world to fight.
He has every right to "bitch" if he's on salary. Unless his employment agreement explicity states he has to work "X" ammount of overtime, he should not be expected to work more than a regular week for his salary according to labor laws. Game companies and some film companies are completely out of line in the ammount of overtime they expect. Read the article, he claims management had him falsifying time sheets to skirt labor laws. I hope he takes them to the cleaners.

[Lorecanth]

On an industry pov, if the court favors the workers, outsourcing countries will gain another competitive edge.
lets hear it for another ringing endorsement of software piracy.

People deserved to be paid for their work, and just because some 18 year old child is willing to lie on his resume, doesn't mean that a 32 year old with 2 kids (and or the other normal life stuff that most human beings should want to be experiancing) be asked to work 80 hours a week.

These are professional jobs... Requiring on average a college education, quite a bit of experiance, and a large investment.

The amount of disrespect that a number of companies show to their employees staggers me.

[status quo]

there are laws against this.

max they can make you work is 37.5 hours per week.

max you can work is 48hours per week.

don't let them get away with that. my first job i couldn't understand the pay slips they seemed way off where it said hours etc.

basicly they screwed me. :deal: had no contract anyway:sad:

[stevopolis]

Its unfortunate to see some of you responding with lack of sympathy for the programmer in this case. Lack of compensation is rampant in our industry, and I think it is because of all of us. We love what we do, and unfortunately most executives realize we will do it for practically nothing. Although that is great if you just got out of college, most people want a family and to retire. Basicallly to live a good life. For example, Sony gave out $100 dollar bills to everyone who worked on the Spiderman show. Sounds like a sweet deal, but its' actually a cheap reward. Thats a 400+ million dollar movie. Most companies reward employees with large bonuses and new opportunities. I highly suggest every one of you stand up for yourself. We deserve the same treatment every other industry recieves. Remember, you can freely make artwork at night if you work a typical job. I find most artists in this industry who work at sweat shops are burnt out by the time they get home. The company sucks their creative juices and energy away. Life is all about balance. If you care about the company your working for, then the company should care about you.

[raz-0]

sOme states have laws that would allow a suit like this. california is one of them. The underlying premise behind the notion of the suit is that of a decveptive contract.

for example, at a job I held, the contract I signed was for 37.5 hours per week, and it allowed for overtime. And I certainly DID work overtime. The thing is, it was occasional, not all the time. If I have to work 55 hours every week or be fired, that's not overtime any longer. It is now my required hours in order to remain employed. That's a contract in bad faith. Most US states are work at will (which also means be fired at will), so they can fire me if they don't like the contract without any harm. However, entering into a contract on bad faith is a no-no, which si what employers are doing. In states like california, they are also violating labor laws.

Another EXTREMELY common problem with employers, that you WILL see more and more lawsuits going on about, is in retail secotrs. hourly workers who are not fired, but have their hours reduced to zero. They are still employed, but don't work enough to collect benefits, and the company avoids paying out for unemployement to the state. Another common problem is demanding employees work overtime, then the manager edits their hours, and the employee gets cut a check for $100 instead of $300.

[status quo]

< had hours cut.


got paid crap.

< nothing i can do.

> never again.


overtime in winter = paid extra.

summer = relax.

[teagan]

if its salary, i dont think its necessary to be paid overtime during crunch mode. it seems like its expected in the gaming industry. if they take advantage of you and crunch mode is a every month thing, that's not very fair and you should get paid more or bonuses. no one should be taken advantage of.

this is also something that should be talked about in an interview. i always ask about overtime and crunch mode when i talk about salary. its part of your agreement. i guess if i was working on a title that i am proud of, i wouldnt mind putting the extra hours in. its more of a rush and feeling of accomplishment for me:shrug: .

[froggyplat]

Another EXTREMELY common problem with employers, that you WILL see more and more lawsuits going on about, is in retail secotrs. hourly workers who are not fired, but have their hours reduced to zero. I had this happen to me when I worked at a bookstore part-time while I was going to school. They claimed that the store was losing a lot of revenue and that everyone was going to have to take a cut in hours. They cut all the hours for myself and one other employee and maybe 2-3 hours a week out from everyone else. They held me on for weeks, sometimes scheduling me for one 5 hour shift, never telling me if I was going to work the following week. But, they wouldn't fire me. I finally got fed up and quit.

As far as the overtime thing, it sounds like a very unfair practice. Still, if companies are rewarding loyalty and hard work with bonuses, pay raises, vacation, added benefits etc. then it might make up the difference for many. I would not be surprised if many workers would be afraid to organize or unionize considering it is a small industry and you could easily be blacklisted. Of course, shoddy employers are banking on that.

"I'll Be Short" is a book by former Labor Sect. Robert Reich that has a really interesting discussion on the 'Social Contract' and how the attitudes and relationships of employers to employees has changed over the past 30 years. I don't know if his argument applies to the CG industry, but it's an informative read.

[jishjosh]

If he has been doing this since 2000, with no compensation, I think the realization that he was never getting paid for those hours should have hit a long time ago.

If it sucked so bad, why keep doing it for 4 years?

[ThommyBoy]

If he has been doing this since 2000, with no compensation, I think the realization that he was never getting paid for those hours should have hit a long time ago.

If it sucked so bad, why keep doing it for 4 years?
He woke up! This is a common reaction that abused women have when the realize what is happening to them. And like the batterd wife example the programmer must "own up to" the fact that he let this company do this to him for so long. His wake up came late indeed, but thank God he woke up.

So along that line of ownership, anyone who lets a company step all over them plays a part in the situation they find themselves and must take full responsibility for what they allow them to do, and act accordingly.

I've worked in Hollywood for 13 years now, and this type of bullying was taking place back at "The mouse" in the mid 90's with memo's requiring 60 to 100 hour weeks after the contract was signed. It took me 3 weeks to get out of my 3-year contract because I will never let any company treat me that way, and Mr. E. know's it. I can never go back, and thats the price I paid.

The bullys [companies]will always find another doormat[ programmer etc.], as most creative types fall into that category. So WAKE UP!

Cheers, THOM

[status quo]

Its unfortunate to see some of you responding with lack of sympathy for the
programmer in this case. Lack of compensation is rampant in our industry, and I
think it is because of all of us. We love what we do, and unfortunately most
executives realize we will do it for practically nothing. Although that is
great if you just got out of college, most people want a family and to retire.
Basicallly to live a good life. For example, Sony gave out $100 dollar bills to
everyone who worked on the Spiderman show. Sounds like a sweet deal, but its'
actually a cheap reward. Thats a 400+ million dollar movie. Most companies
reward employees with large bonuses and new opportunities. I highly suggest
every one of you stand up for yourself. We deserve the same treatment every
other industry recieves. Remember, you can freely make artwork at night if you
work a typical job. I find most artists in this industry who work at sweat
shops are burnt out by the time they get home. The!
company sucks their creative juices and energy away. Life is all about
balance. If you care about the company your working for, then the company
should care about you.

i would have thron $100 back in their face. its an insult.

i think most people defending the company don't have reponsabilities, such as family house etc.

most of their money just goes on entertainment.

[slaughters]

CG artists are such babies :) This has been happening to programmers for the last 30+ years (I've been there for 20 of them).

Having said that, if the company can not prove compensation for the time worked (traditionally shifted into the vacation day bank) then they are just plain asking to be sued. Most companies know that compensating programmers with extra days off is a safe bet, because many of them will never take all of them anyway, BUT the company can prove to outside auditors that they fairly compensated their employees for the hours they put in.

[halo]

want to know how far so called proffesional multi site games developers can push things?

http://www.fatbabies.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2659&highlight=climax

i would take that with a pinch of salt, except that I have had pretty much everything in that thread verified by 2 totally independant first hand sources.

the industry needs a serious dry fit.

[baaah888]

The industry needs a kick in the arse, That sort of behaviour at climax doesnt really help, if any of that is true then thats a worry since climax is seen as a big uk dev house, and if they really are as bad as that for piracy and poor management and lieing through their teeth, then the rest of the uk industry will suffer.

I think about the overtime dispute and i think something that we all forget about games, And that is that this whole industry started in the bedroom, with a coder and possibly an artist, it then went to small dev houses, that were on major tight budgets, storys of companies running week to week of credit cards and not paying employees till a game was published were rife about 10 years ago, then big business moved to town and thought they could exploit us, and by god did they,

Im sure early deals were along these lines,

"we know you love creating games, we'll pay you to do games for us, but we'll write the contracts and set time scales even though we dont know jack sh*t about your industry and just want to make a buck"

unfortunatly the early people were happy working for little since it was a hobby turned into a business, but now its a big business and big businesses should not be goverened by pay scales for small businesses and family businesses. Trade and employment laws were set up for these purposes and the sooner someone points this out and wins a legal case the better we will all be.

[halo]

allegedly: believe me, they are that bad and worse, which is probably why no decent agency will touch them with a barge pole.

[Mindmatter]

If overtime is expected, why is it still called "overtime"?:curious:

[Lunatique]

For those that don't support those programmers or think what they are doing is necessary, I hope for your sake that you never get married or have children or have a significant other what loves you and wants to spend as much time you as possible. Because if you do get any of those things, you WILL start to think differently. There is so much more to life than slaving for a game company. If your job security depends not only on your skill/talent/work ethic/personality, but also on how willing you are to sacrifice your personal life, then I would call that unreasonable. Think about it--your life consists of many 24 hour cycles. You spend a good 8 hours or so of it sleeping. If you spend another 12 hours or more working, you've only got 4 hours left to yourself. Take 1 hour for eating your meals, half an hour for bathroom breaks..etc, another for showering, daily commute..etc. You've now got 1 1/2 hours left in your daily life for yourself and your loved ones.

Has the reality sunken in yet? 1 1/2 hours per day to spend on yourself and your loved ones. That is NOT how a human being should live.

Game development is a volatile and demanding industry. Publishers are like Satan's children--they make lives miserable. And because of that, game studios have to jump through hoops and perform ridiculou deeds in order to please the publishers--and that includes working their staff to death. That is how the game is played in general. So the problem isn't just working overtime without compensation or required long hours--it really trickles down from the top. There has to be a better way to get games published--and that's a much bigger problem than we are capable of discussing here. Publishers and developers need to get together and have conferences to work this kink out, because the game indstry is now too high-pressure and not nearly as fun as it used to be. They keep saying how much the game biz is like the show biz in Hollywood. Well, they got their wish and now we're all suffering.

[charleyc]

I am not trying to take any side in this, but here is my logic (however flawwed it may be). First off, game companies are not the only proffesional jobs that demand long hours. It is a company decision in any profession. I know of architect firms that do this, engineering firms, most all jobs related to these fields, and I am certain they are not the only ones. Outside of professionals, any construction job absolutely requires more that 40 hrs a week. My point here is that some companies feel it necissary to mis-schedule projects to appease clients and are of low integrety. If you don't enjoy those kind of hours and conditions, find another job. This inconvieniance of job hunting is just that, an inconvieniance. If you feel you need a job bad enough you will put up with this, but if you don't want to put up with it don't take/stay with the job. If enough skilled employees from these companies quit and went elsewhere (contrary to popular belief, not all game companies do this) The ones that do will have to wake up sooner or later. Also, we don't really know what goes on with some of these people in the weeks prior to crunch time. Did they spend too much time screwing around and not get their job done? We don't know.

While I am completely certain this company was way in the wrong, why put up with it for even a year. I am married and have children and I could never justify a situation like that to myself. I hope this does makes an impact to the game development proffession. Although, a favorite verse of mine is "A fool and his money are soon parted". While I am not implying this programmer is a fool, staying at a place like that is foolish, and a lot of potential earnings were lost. Perhaps they will be recovered, but in the end is it worth the gamble?

[Fasty]

Well said, Lunatique. Some people obviously have no commitments outside work.

For some interesting reading go here:

http://www.the-underdogs.org/scratch.php

Sorry for the long quote but here goes:


Silicon Sweatshops

So the computer game industry is getting caught up more and more in a blood-sucking scam. Venture (vampire?) capitalists make sure everyone knows what side the bread is buttered on. The large amount of blood - sorry, capital - that is required to make a game nowadays mean more and more of the small development shops are being forced out or forced into ‘partnerships’ with big corporations. At the same time, working conditions in the industry are getting worse. Crunch time (crunch, like the sound Renfield makes biting into the carapace of a tasty bug?) seems to be more and more common, and to go on longer and longer. Descriptions of crunch seem to have a lot in common with the kinds of work practices you find south of the border. Here’s one from Ion Storm Dallas, as reported in Salon (link: How do game developers hack it? (http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/03/07/romero/index.html)). It's rife with 'I love my vampire masters' baloney.

All-nighters, 18-hour days, sleeping at the office -- John Romero (http://www.johnromero.com/)'s posse keeps up a "death schedule (http://www.gamespot.com/features/btg-daikatana/)" to get Daikatana (http://www.daikatana.com/) out of beta. Since Daikatana's inception, elite and obsessive gamers have road-tripped from around the world to work with their hero, Romero. They've quit school, left relationships and literally built beds under their desks to live and breathe nearly every breath in the house Romero built. Their commitment to a self-described "death schedule" -- the final, endless rush to perfect their game -- isn't just some start-up novelty, it's a way of life.

The commitment of a Mexican maquiladora worker to their imposed 'death schedule' isn't a choice -- it's a hard economic decision in a poor country. The first 14 hours are always the easiest.

"Aaaaarrggggggggh!" Shawn Green screams as he thrashes his computer keyboard against the ground. It's midnight in the coders cove of Ion Storm (http://www.ionstorm.com/) and the cubes are as dark as the city below outside. Green, a stocky, long-haired programmer in a paunchy black T-shirt, hunches like an ape at the beginning of "2001" and whacks keys across the floor like loose teeth. A skinny programmer stretches his neck out of a nearby cube to observe the tantrum, then nonchalantly returns to his work. Green brushes the hair from his face as a smile creeps across it. "Nothing like a little stress relief," he says, tossing the battered keyboard down the hall.

Nothing like a little violent behavior induced by an insane schedule. This is Texas -- will the next step be to grab a handgun and whack loose teeth across the floor after trying to eat a bullet? Green, the 28-year-old lead coder on Daikatana and a veteran of id Software (http://www.idsoftware.com/), is 14 hours into one more 18-hour day. In a few minutes, he'll take his first and only break, heading off to an abandoned abortion clinic to practice with his doom-metal band, Last Chapter (http://web2.iadfw.net/ozzy/lchapt.htm)... The great thing is, if people in the industry were paid hourly, crunch time would be a clear violation of even the miserable US labor laws. Mmmmm… I love working 18 hours with one break. Sign me up, oh dark lords of capitalism! Everyone teeters on the brink of self-destruction during crunch mode, the ruthless death schedule that comes during these final months of production. That's got to be healthy! The sheer relentlessness of crunch mode, Romero insists, is the only way to make sure everything gets covered. The sheer relentlessness of global competition, sweatshop managers insist, is the only way to survive. Back to work, lazy sheep! To hack it, survivors like Green have transformed crunch into their high-tech frat's equivalent of hazing -- the upperclassmen being the machines, and the pledges, the humans who serve them… Brian Eiserloh, a bushy, 29-year-old coder who goes by the nickname Squirrel, set the office record for spending 85 out of 90 days without going home. "You can get an amazing amount of work done," he enthuses via e-mail. "I thrive under [short bursts] of pressure." The thing is, Daikatana turned out to be a long burst. They get longer and longer. And soon enough, they become the expectation. This is called 'reduced expectations', baas and moos, and it's one of the favorite tools of the vampire. And this one has to be the crowning glory. We're so much better in the US than in other parts of the world. There, you have other people forcing you to work in unlit, unventilated workplaces for 18 hours day in and day out. Here, we get people to convince themselves to do it voluntarily. Aren't we so superior?

Now Ion Storm's 31 game developers don't just work in the shade, they work in the black. To get into their cubes, they part felt… It was a fairly awesome and ironic sight as I wandered through the glass-domed gamers' haven last October. All I saw were rows of caves. And of these caves, Weasl's was the darkest. "I call myself a mushroom," Weasl told me as I crouched inside, "because I'm always working in the dark." With a couple extra layers of felt draping his cube, there's not even the slightest trace of light, let alone fresh air. But Weas… doesn't seem to mind. "Darkness is really helpful when you're trying to shut out outside influences," he explains, tweaking an animated pool of lava on his screen. "After you spend enough time in here, your personality adapts."

After you beat a child repeatedly, it's personality adapts, too. Luke "Weasl" Whiteside is the newest level designer to join the Daikatana team and, in a way, the most enigmatic. Since he came to the company just a few months before my visit, Weasl managed to miss out on Ion Storm's tempestuous back story. He's still so awed to be working here that sometimes he doesn't leave. Underneath his desk there's a pillow. On some nights, he hunkers down below his computer, munches some M&M's and goes to sleep. For Romero, who dreamed of populating a company with gamers as intense as himself, Weasl is as hardcore as it gets. Sounds like poor Weasl is suffering from a case of vampiric possession. Concentration camp victims identified with their oppressors, too. Not to say that the much (and probably accurately) maligned Ion Storm is the only company where this happens -- no, not at all. It's all over. Doesn't that make you feel better about the games you buy? It’s a good thing that CDs don't carry bloodstains well.

[halo]

just sad.

even sadder that diakatana totally stiffed as well.

Still, as that article shows, theres plenty of cannon fodder who are so desperate to work on something "cool" that they sacrifice everything, including the state of the industry. Twats. :banghead:

They can always find a new job eh, especially after relocating and all, throwing away everything they already have, needing a bloody good holiday etc, i should think theyd be a ripe candidate for another studio that needs to hire due to crunch approaching....you've been a mug once, why not again.

People need more confidence in their worth and value, but unless you can punch that into the heads of fanboy college leavers who will work for a wank with the boss and a packet of m&m's then its just better off you leave them to it and go an find a professional industry.

[baaah888]

The funny thing is that diaktana completly proves everyones gripes,

Overworked, underpaid, social life desroyed, ... aversion to sunlight,

These things are only done by people desperate to work in the games industry, and people with high ambitions, And if you populate the industry with people like this then all the really talented people will go elsewhere,

Diaktana sucked ass, and the reason sound's like it was due to the conditions and hireing people for the wrong reasons,

How often when working do you get up and come back to a piece of work and think damn this sucks, you cant really do that when your only non working moment is sleeping,

the thing i dont get is that we know this happens, yet we dont do anyhting about it. Sure if its voluntary, thats fne, but death schedule doesnt sound voluntary.

[metroeast]

I know this might encourage outsourcing work to other countries but programmers and animators need to unionize. Everyone has heard of someone they knew working long hours only to get ripped off.

It is a long time coming

[PhantomDesign]

Just a few observations...



CGers in the industry are required to work 60 hour weeks.

GGers aren't properly compensated for their overtime.

CGers are usually highly skilled and highly experienced.

There are not anywhere near enough CG jobs.





Lets just say you took 3 people that put in at least 53 hours a week and reduce their hours to 40. So, we have an extra 39 (about 40) hours that can be worked which is either [1] another employee or [2] overtime. If the industry banded together, we could create more jobs and/or get paid overtime. That would only cause the industry to expand helping the newcomers and those who have been established.





If there isn't enough time for your employees to assign the tasks you've given them, hire more employees or reduce the tasks. Oh, wait, maybe that's too far in the realm of logic for employers.

[Zeruel the 14th]

I once heard the saying "If you enjoy your work, you'll never have to work a day in your life."

Well, all this stuff sounds like abuse and outright exploitation. Work should fit your lifestyle...not the other way around. Work gives you funds to live you life, raise a family all that. Work that you enjoy is a bonus. You can do it with enthusiasm and vigour. But this whole bother sounds like suffering to me. Some things simply aren't worth it. Not if you have to slave away like some drone whose only purpose is to manipulated like some cog in a machine.

Sure you can walk away. And some other poor slob of a drone will eagerly step in with a big grin on his face wondering why that other guy walked out. Maybe its idealistic. But if enough people said to their bosses. "I'm going home to my family. See you in the morning." And didn't stay back. Despite threats of job loss ("Fine, want to play it that way, i'll collect my stuff now.) Then perhaps something can change.

Some industries and business have learnt that you can't treat people like machines. That if your people are happy and content. Then they work better, more efficiently and the business benefits in the end. Thats why some businesses have lasted decades (or more.) and go on to long outlive their founders, while others last only a few years and fade away.

If you take a machine and keep pushing it too its limits without looking after it, without giving a thought to maintence or putting something back in. Then its gonna fail. Gears will grind down, parts rot away. And then it all comes apart. Maybe it will even explode in your face. Business is like a machine. Some are poorly designed and assembled and maintained. Depending on a influx of cheap and nasty spareparts to keep going and then only barely.

End off tangent rant.:shrug:

[PhantomDesign]

I once heard the saying "If you enjoy your work, you'll never have to work a day in your life."



Initially reading the first 2 sentences, it sounded like your boss told you that. Any boss who says that to his workers deserves a kick in the nuts.



I very much agree with what you've said. The only reason companies exploit workers is because workers allow the companies to exploit them.

[status quo]

I once heard the saying "If you enjoy your work, you'll never have to work a day in your life."

Well, all this stuff sounds like abuse and outright exploitation. Work should fit your lifestyle...not the other way around. Work gives you funds to live you life, raise a family all that. Work that you enjoy is a bonus. You can do it with enthusiasm and vigour. But this whole bother sounds like suffering to me. Some things simply aren't worth it. Not if you have to slave away like some drone whose only purpose is to manipulated like some cog in a machine.

Sure you can walk away. And some other poor slob of a drone will eagerly step in with a big grin on his face wondering why that other guy walked out. Maybe its idealistic. But if enough people said to their bosses. "I'm going home to my family. See you in the morning." And didn't stay back. Despite threats of job loss ("Fine, want to play it that way, i'll collect my stuff now.) Then perhaps something can change.

Some industries and business have learnt that you can't treat people like machines. That if your people are happy and content. Then they work better, more efficiently and the business benefits in the end. Thats why some businesses have lasted decades (or more.) and go on to long outlive their founders, while others last only a few years and fade away.

If you take a machine and keep pushing it too its limits without looking after it, without giving a thought to maintence or putting something back in. Then its gonna fail. Gears will grind down, parts rot away. And then it all comes apart. Maybe it will even explode in your face. Business is like a machine. Some are poorly designed and assembled and maintained. Depending on a influx of cheap and nasty spareparts to keep going and then only barely.

End off tangent rant.:shrug:100% in agreement.

[dmonk]

I hear the same kind of mentality on this forum all the time. People who literally sacrifice everything to work in the industry. I think this is a good thing. Hopefully it will wake some people up. The only reason employers get away with these kind of things is because people allow themselves to be taken advantage of.
My wife does 3d visualization and graphic design for a medical equipment company. The job is creative and fun at times, but get this, she only has to work 40 hours a week, gets paid time and a half for overtime and has awesome benefits. All of the employees are treated the same way and the company does great. Some would say " well the gaming industry just isn't that way and all of the crunch time is absolutely necessary." Well it doesn't have to be that way.

[psyop63b]

The fact that he had to "regularly" work overtime without compensation is what causes me to sympathize with this guy. By making people work more hours for the same salary, studios are sparing themselves the expense of hiring additional staff. Guess if you don't like it, there are a lot of young and naive people out there who'll endure the hardships instead of you.

[mental]

In a related sweatshop story...

Interplay offices closed by state officials (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/06/04/news_6100019.html)

The Orange County Register reports that California labor investigators have shut down the publisher--something CEO Herve Caen disputes.

Less than a day after CEO Herve Caen said Interplay was "still here," the publisher has apparently been shut down by the State of California. The Orange County Register's Tamara Chuang reported late Friday that California's Department of Industrial Relations, Division of Labor Standards Enforcement forced the Irvine, California-based developer-publisher of Fallout to suspend operations.

The closure followed a snap inspection of Interplay's offices by investigators, who found the company was without workers compensation insurance and had not paid employees. According to officials, there were 14 staffers on-site Friday during the inspection, and 79 still on Interplay's payroll--down nearly 40 since their mid-April financial statements.

The labor officials' visitation was prompted by complaints by seven Interplay workers who claimed their wages had gone unpaid. Dean Fryer, spokesman for the California Labor Commissioner, told the Register, "An employer has responsibilities when they open a business. The responsibilities include proper and timely payment of wages. It includes providing workers' compensation coverage in case there are injuries. If the employer cannot accommodate those basic issues of doing business, we cannot allow employees to work."

[mental]

Penny-Arcade Strip (http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-07-02&res=l)

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040702l.jpg

[froggyplat]

Well said, Lunatique. Some people obviously have no commitments outside work.

For some interesting reading go here:

http://www.the-underdogs.org/scratch.php

Sorry for the long quote but here goes:

I've been to the ION Storm offices a couple of times and I didn't see anything like that. It was well lit, plenty of space, people worked in common areas, everyone seemed friendly and in good disposition. And this was near the release of Thief III. But, I didn't see the whole complex....maybe they hide the cave trolls from the public :twisted:

edit: oops, I guess they were referring to the old Dallas I.S.

[RayenD]

If you don't understand this guy and don't support him you will do it in the future.

After you are divorced, out of money,totally burned out anti-social former human being without anyone to talk to.

People who accept overtimes, who can do anything (including jumping from the roof) for the company to get a job, sacrificing their personal lives are worse than hordes of talentless wannabies.

[bentllama]

what a bunch of whiny babies.

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.

it is your responsibility to make sure you know the rewards and consequences of possible crunchtimes while in thier employ. if you do not like it, then leave. you will have no one to blame but yourself.

[mental]

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.
nobody's disputing that there will be days/weeks when you have to work overtime but when everyday is crunchtime there's a problem with the company not the employee. that is what folks are complaining about.

[froggyplat]

it is your responsibility to make sure you know the rewards and consequences of possible crunchtimes while in thier employ. if you do not like it, then leave. you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Whether or not individuals know the rewards and consequences is irrelevant in determining if an employer is being unfair. Why? Because people can accept that they may have to work long hours sometimes (even often) to get the job done: that doesn't mean that employers are not taking advantage of the situation to coerce employees into meeting unreasonable demands.

[Rudity]

what a bunch of whiny babies.

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.

it is your responsibility to make sure you know the rewards and consequences of possible crunchtimes while in thier employ. if you do not like it, then leave. you will have no one to blame but yourself.

I hate the "suck it up" attitude. Its the psuedo tough guys response to getting screwed over. "Ya, I'm getting screwed, but it doesnt bother me, I can suck it up"
Telling people to suck it up is bullshit. Stand up for yourselves if you feel you're being wronged, even if you can't do a thing about it, you'll feel better about yourself.

Tell you kids next time a bully steals their lunch money to "suck it up"
Or if you bust some guy stealing your ipod; Just suck it up.


Plus, to "suck it up" you have to know your getting screwed.
Theres no, "sucking it up" when your treated fairly.

My 2 cents.

[danielh68]

I totally agree, froggyplat. The game industry shouldn't be exempt from any of the standards that other industries must comply to.

[Volker]

what a bunch of whiny babies.

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.

it is your responsibility to make sure you know the rewards and consequences of possible crunchtimes while in thier employ. if you do not like it, then leave. you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Suck it up?!?!

llama, we're not just talking about what to do once in a contract, we're talking about the industry as a whole. If you think that giving up most of your free time to your job without extra pay is cool, then by all means get back to work. But the rest of us would like a job with regular hours like the rest of the country, with overtime pay.

[slaughters]

In a related sweatshop story...

Interplay offices closed by state officials (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/06/04/news_6100019.html)And to my dismay I read the last paragraph in that article:

Still, some of the Interplay staffers at the office on Friday held out a more genuine sense of hope than their employer. "The reason I stick around is that I’m a diehard loyalist and I love the people I work with," IS manager Steve Jobes told the Register. "If there is any sliver of hope that Interplay may someday turn around, I want to be there to see it."

[halo]

Originally Posted by bentllama
what a bunch of whiny babies.

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.

it is your responsibility to make sure you know the rewards and consequences of possible crunchtimes while in thier employ. if you do not like it, then leave. you will have no one to blame but yourself.

please bother to read what people are posting before being flippant...you may be on a high horse, doesnt mean someone will chop its legs off one day and you wont be stuck between flipping burgers, relocating or sucking it up...no-ones saying they mind crunch time, what people mind is the contract being stretched so that they are exploited by almost permanent crunch time, or being stiffed when crunch time is over either by bad timesheeting or just being stiffed. It doesnt matter whether people read their contract, a lot of what is going here is border line illegal or at least immoral.

theres nothing like a lack of compassion and an "im alright jack so f u whinies" attitude to really build respect.

[Paige Fury]

what a bunch of whiny babies.

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.

it is your responsibility to make sure you know the rewards and consequences of possible crunchtimes while in thier employ. if you do not like it, then leave. you will have no one to blame but yourself.
This tough guy attitude won't do artists much good in the industry. So if an artists have family responsibility, raising kids, do you expect him/her just leave the job? Is that what we want to see in our society, overworking people to death so they can died of a heart attack at 55, and getting screwed over paid at the same time?

What kind of values are we promoting in our supposedly civilized society when people have this kind of twisted mindset to work like machine? It is very sad to see statements like this where people think overwork is great. It's de-humanizing to say the least.

I don't know if union is the answer. But it seems employers are the one getting the upper hand in situation like this.

[RayenD]

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.
Tell me how excessive overtime is "necessary part of development"? It is caused
by mainly 3 things
a) greed
b) bad management
c) a + b

Then come bad game concepts, payment delays from publishers etc, etc

[froggyplat]

This tough guy attitude won't do artists much good in the industry. So if an artists have family responsibility, raising kids, do you expect him/her just leave the job?
Exactly! There's nothing "tough" about refusing to stand up for yourself or running away from a fight. The only way to change things is to organize and take risks. If a good number of people truly feel that they are being taken advantage of then they only have to look as far as a history book to learn how workers have improved conditions for themselves over the past hundred years. Running away only makes the problem worse for you and everyone else.

[heavyness]

i really don't know if i'm against, or for this. if you believe in something, then yes, your going to be putting in some long hours because you want to see the end product shine. on the other hand, this could just be bad management and not taking advantage of the time you have. i've talked to tons of freelance people who wait to the last minute to do projects, but still get them done. smart?

one good thing for the game industry is that some companies do share the wealth with bonuses, milestone bonuses, and if their game sells X, you receive a % of X. so putting in long hours without pay MIGHT pay off later down the road.

i worked extra hours and weekends at a start up company in 2000. i wasn't getting paid extra, but i knew it was good for the company and in the long run would help. in the end, the company closed and i didn't get paid for my last 3 weeks there. mad? a little. disappointed? sure. knowing i tried everything to help the company regardless the overtime or extra hours. after all of that, i found out ALL the managers at the company were not been getting paid for the past 2 months just so we could get paid and have funding.

now if i got hired somewhere and they didn't hire more people on when needed and gave us impossible deadline, then my feelings would be different. i'm willing to work OT for something i believe in, but not for the profit of the big shots at Company X and the fact they can't manage their time.

[bentllama]

please bother to read what people are posting before being flippant...you may be on a high horse, doesnt mean someone will chop its legs off one day and you wont be stuck between flipping burgers, relocating or sucking it up...no-ones saying they mind crunch time, what people mind is the contract being stretched so that they are exploited by almost permanent crunch time, or being stiffed when crunch time is over either by bad timesheeting or just being stiffed. It doesnt matter whether people read their contract, a lot of what is going here is border line illegal or at least immoral.

theres nothing like a lack of compassion and an "im alright jack so f u whinies" attitude to really build respect.there is no compassion when you are responsible for laying the groundwork of the working relationship with your boss from the get go. if you did not talk to your employer before signing on about the possibility of extended crunches, then you have no right to complain. it is partly your fault. it is true that developers and publishers have no right to take advantage of employees, and if it was not talked about when you mutually adressed overtime compensation in your interview/contract signing then you have a problem to solve.

too many people lose sight of the fact that even though you are an artist in a creative role, it is still a business. and are all major business deals outlined in full before you sign on the dotted line? read the damn contract and know what you are getting into. it is your responsibility. when things like this happen and it is off base with what has been agreed upon on paper, then you have every right kto take countermeasures, and are justified in doing so because you took care of yourself in the first place.

I stand by my 'suck it up or leave' commentary. no one is forcing you to be there. if i was feeling abused, about anything outside of what my boss and I agreed was viable, I would take action or leave; becasue i laid out conversation and agreement of the groundrules upon signing up.

and me thinking i am alright and i have no compassion? well, i was out of work once as well. the company i was working for swept my legs out from underneath me. i weighed my options, garnered courage for interviews and eventually landing on my feet where i am today. better opportunities always come by for the people that make them happen...

i sympathize with people being overworked, but not when they did not talk about the chances of it happening prior to employment.

until people stop whining after the fact, and talk about it...or get it in writing before the fact...the industry will keep doing these sort of things.
by me taking a stand for my self before employment, i am one person contributing to the plight to end the fashions of permanent overtime.

[Lunatique]

what a bunch of whiny babies.

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.

it is your responsibility to make sure you know the rewards and consequences of possible crunchtimes while in thier employ. if you do not like it, then leave. you will have no one to blame but yourself.
Ok, let's for a moment look at this hypothetical situation:

For some reason, Bungie decided to lay off employees, and you were one of them. Now, you have to find a new job. You are experienced and have shipped AAA titles like Halo and Halo 2. That's great.

Now, you look for a new job, and you are faced with:

1) Very talented young CG guys with killer demo reels that rival yours, but since they aren't as experienced, they demand a far lower salary. They also are bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and will do ANYTHING to work in games--even working unGodly long hours.

2) Other veterans with similar experiences as yours, and they are desperate to get a new job because there are far fewer jobs in games now due to the closing of smaller studios and downsizing of the larger ones. They are willing to take a salary cut, and also working unGodly long hours--just to stay in the industry.

So there you are, trying to bargain with the studio owner about what YOU want--a good pay and reasonable working hours.

So as a business owner, do you think the boss will hire you or the other two options he's got?

This is the reality of the industry. You might be comfy and happy now, but nothing is ever certain in the game industry. Things can change in a flash and anyone who's worked in games knows this--just as you had experienced it in the past.

So the issue is, what's to stop the employers from taking advantage of the desperate job-seekers? What can be done about the nature of the business altogether so that no exploitation will be necesarry anymore?

[peanuckle]

I personally hate the SUCK IT UP attitude. I have been in FAR to many situtations where I have been taken advantage of. I tried to SUCK IT UP, backfired. They just used me as a nice carpet for their new designer shoes. When you sign a contract you must keep your end of the bargain. So are they when they start to fraud you, your contract becomes void and you have perfect right to sue. Just like when workers sue walmart for discrimination. Does matter if they spend a week just signing I wont sue contracts. Right when the employer breaks the law the worker has the right to SUE. Not get stepped all over.

What I hope is that the employee who is suing when to the proper people in the company and told them what was going on before they sued. I really hate when people get so sue crazy and sue everyone and their dog. I think it blows. I think the employee and employer should show a good sense of morality twords each other. Thats a good workplace not a backstabbing horrid shop.

Alright I am tired I have worked 2 months without a day off and I am going to bed....I hope damn piranaha energy drink.

pea~

[spacefrog]

my POV:

* Managers/Executives etc... try to push you as far as they can get and as far you are willing to go ( talking about your working hours - w'out payment )
Today's common sense is (sad sad sad), that it's their job and profession to
do so, so from a professional POV, your job on the other end is to stand up against it and push YOUR interests, and that is getting the money for your work.

* i did a tight job the last 6 weeks with about 12 hours per day, but after all the happiness with my output and the final product, i had to discuss with the company's loan dep. about the salary a lot ( we agreed before i started to work - of course ) and they tried every trick to have me accept a few Euro's less here, and another few Euros less there.
And all this after a very happy final presentation, where everone (including financial dep.) was whoahh and jaw dropping and fascinated about my work!!!

* I really got frustrated about all this argueing etc. and have to say, there is no ethics there ( even not in the smaller companies ), there's pure greed out there, and even if we love the work we do and get our kicks out of such nice feedback on our work, you have to keep an eye on your interest

spacefrog

[percydaman]

wow bentlama, your post is so full of shit I dont know where to begin. Your post makes it sound like, that there IS no problem with the industry. That everyone is just whiners who didn't negotiate their contract prudently. That is such an incredible narrow vision.

There are PLENTY of studios with no scruples who will lie, cheat and basically steal from their employees. They will take the schmo that fits what they need but also seems the most naive when it comes to contracts. They can see these guys from a MILE away! They've seen all the reels, and basically know what each prospective employee is capable of. Now its just up to them to see which one is the most willing to sign a draconian contract. Whose fault is this? Don't say its the employee. They aren't the one trying to steal. They are the one being taken advantage of.

If you take advantage of someone because your in a position to, and KNOW it, then YOUR the bad person. YOU should be the one to "suck it up" and decide that maybe you dont need those extra dollars lining your pocket.

too many people lose sight of the fact that even though you are an artist in a creative role, it is still a business.
More bullshit. People DO realize they are in a business. How can they NOT? And I guarantee that those people getting mistreated most certainly know all too well, that they are in a business.

It would seem to me, bentlama, that you negotiated a fair contract with a fair company. Well good for you, now tell me that all companies operate like yours. Tell me that all companies are fair and are interested in the welfare of their employees.

If someone takes "advantage" of your ignorance, when they KNOW they are taking advantage, I think everyone knows who the villain is, and when you say to yourself "suck it up, they got me good" then your just saying that they did nothing wrong. Remember we're not talking about "fair" negotiating, but employers taking advantage of their "position."

When all companies start treating their employees fairly, as per what is stated in their contracts, then you can call those that are incapable of contract negotiating "whiners." When all companies stop taking advantage of the fact that they can mistreat whomever they want, because they can always just "let them go" and find another sheep, from the ever growing herd of future employees, then you can tell people to "suck it up."

If you haven't figured it out by now, this discussion isn't about individual employees or even individual employers. Its a problem that is rampant in the industry, and YOUR attitude gives them the support to continue down their path.

p.s. "you were bent" God if I didn't know better, I might think you were just one of those people Im referring to.

[status quo]

When all companies stop taking advantage of the fact that they can mistreat whomever they want, because they can always just "let them go" and find another sheep, from the ever growing herd of future employees
its not just this industry. its 90% almost :)

[GRMac13]

For those that don't support those programmers or think what they are doing is necessary, I hope for your sake that you never get married or have children or have a significant other what loves you and wants to spend as much time you as possible. Because if you do get any of those things, you WILL start to think differently. There is so much more to life than slaving for a game company. If your job security depends not only on your skill/talent/work ethic/personality, but also on how willing you are to sacrifice your personal life, then I would call that unreasonable. Think about it--your life consists of many 24 hour cycles. You spend a good 8 hours or so of it sleeping. If you spend another 12 hours or more working, you've only got 4 hours left to yourself. Take 1 hour for eating your meals, half an hour for bathroom breaks..etc, another for showering, daily commute..etc. You've now got 1 1/2 hours left in your daily life for yourself and your loved ones.

Has the reality sunken in yet? 1 1/2 hours per day to spend on yourself and your loved ones. That is NOT how a human being should live.

Game development is a volatile and demanding industry. Publishers are like Satan's children--they make lives miserable. And because of that, game studios have to jump through hoops and perform ridiculou deeds in order to please the publishers--and that includes working their staff to death. That is how the game is played in general. So the problem isn't just working overtime without compensation or required long hours--it really trickles down from the top. There has to be a better way to get games published--and that's a much bigger problem than we are capable of discussing here. Publishers and developers need to get together and have conferences to work this kink out, because the game indstry is now too high-pressure and not nearly as fun as it used to be. They keep saying how much the game biz is like the show biz in Hollywood. Well, they got their wish and now we're all suffering.
Quoted for total agreement.

[bentllama]

...and I repeat...


and me thinking i am alright and i have no compassion? well, i was out of work once as well. the company i was working for swept my legs out from underneath me. i weighed my options, garnered courage for interviews and eventually landing on my feet where i am today. better opportunities always come by for the people that make them happen...

i sympathize with people being overworked, but not when they did not talk about the chances of it happening prior to employment.

until people stop whining after the fact, and talk about it...or get it in writing before the fact...the industry will keep doing these sort of things.
by me taking a stand for my self before employment, i am one person contributing to the plight to end the fashions of permanent overtime.

[status quo]

...and I repeat...but your the only one beating your drum.

most other seem to disagree. one would question whether you had a job considering i read something about you working on halo 2.

[stevopolis]

You have one question to determine if you are getting unfair treatment
within your company? When does management go home every night?
Most likely, if you work in gaming or the entertainment industry, the
management goes home at around 5. You know why?

1) because it is a job to them

2) they have a life outside of work they care for (family, hobbies / not 3D,
their health and excercise, friends, and personal time).

3) because it is standard practice for everyone else around them. Except
for you, you no life programmer or artist. Who are you to ask them for the
same treatment!

It is not just the game industry, but CG as a whole. I work in a film studio,
and I see the same treatment all around me.

I have one more question to ask you.

What the hell are you all going to do about it? If you want good treatment,
start a union. If we don't band together now to fight for your rights, then
your life and this industry will end in doom. Our jobs are going oversees,
do you think your local congress reps are aware of this? You need a union!

Do something about it...

[charleyc]

I think you guys are missing Bentllama's point. There is no doubt there is a problem with the game industry from the top down. As the games continue to grow in magnitude, so will the responsabilities of the managing parties. This will one day fix itself. But who knows how long that could take? More time then some could have for a carreer? I believe Bentllama is giving a more proactive nudge. Artists need to have the confidence to stand up to wrongdoings. There also needs to be a reinforcement in the fact that talent with experience will most always win out over talent without to a company with even half a brain. I have seen some extrodinary artists with little experiance, but they still lack knowledge about professionalism. That is only gained with experience. A lot of mistakes are made in the first few years, some companies can't afford them. If artists stand up to the immorale acts of companies and treat each other with due respect, that will change this industy faster then anything. That being said, there also needs to be recognition of what is immorale from the companies stand point. I have seen a slightly bent system taken advantage of by lazy employees who not only see no wrong on their ends, but insist it is only right because of the minor infractions done usually to people other then themselves. Knowing the system is in bad shape is no excuse to bring down the good with the bad. Cruch time happens in all industies and professions. It sucks. This is learned with experiance. However, dragging employees who have given their all through this time and time again with no evidence of lessons learned is poor management and should be delt as such. Also, maintaining a staff of employees who procrastinate and bring on cruch times is also a sign of poor management. This industy is getting its wake up call and anyone who wishes to carreer in it should want to be a part of the solution.

Edit; The part of the solution I mean here is to be smart a employee who values a job. One that values experiance gained by "sucking it up" when neccissary for the sake of things to come. One that values hard work all the time (therefore hoping to offset a cruch at the end). While it is important to be wise in the face of immorale and illegal employers, make certain that is the case before going off on them because one feels offended. And, if you don't like the circumstances of the carreer, find a different one. Most of us are required to work to sustain our lives. Find a spot that you enjoy and make the best of it. If you are miserable at work, it will come through in your life outside work. Others will see this and you will not have the ambition to do your best at anything.

forgive me bentllama if I put words or implications in your mouth that you didn't intend.

[sforsyth]

Yeah, this actually happened to me. I went over to England to get a job in a games company, a dream I had had most of my life. At the interview, I was told that there is a European law prohibiting employees from working more than 48 hour weeks. I was then asked to sign a waiver, waiving this right so they could make me work as long as they wanted to (in crunch times). Well, that was the end of my game career, as I turned it down. I guess I didn't "suck it up", and decided instead to have a life outside of work. I work to live, not live to work.

I understand that companies want you to work extra in crunch time, and I have no problem with that, I worked 3 solid months without a single days break when I worked for Corel, but the thing is, it continues. After a while, crunchtime becomes all the time. When you sign the contract, you're told "there may be some overtime required during crunchtimes, which are USUALLY 2 or 3 times a year." Those 2 or 3 times become longer and longer until eventually they start running into each other. It becomes hard to distinguish crunch time from normal time, and as a result, employees are expected to just keep plugging away, giving all their weekends up.

Not for me, I'm too old for that. Guess some 18 year old kid can have that sort of job if they want. Me, I'm now in a great company where we do no overtime (on the basis that overtime makes people tired, malcontented and produce shoddier work anyway), and I have a life outside of work. Working those hours was possible when I was in my early 20's, but not anymore. Guess I've grown up and am not prepared to be screwed over anymore. Not taking that job was the best thing I ever did.

I can see what you are saying bentllama, it's up to us to stand up for ourselves, even if it means we give up on dream jobs, I think the point of contention is the whole issue of what "crunchtime" is. If it's 2 weeks a year, yeah, what the hell, go for it. Thing is, it VERY seldom is.

[Atwooki]

Good on you, Sean, and very well phrased post Lunatique....
Seems us older guys get the squeeze here :D

Something has to give:shrug:

Atwooki

[Boone]

Well, we can all make assumptions and give crit an all that - but I don't think any of us have access to a copy of the contract that this individual has signed.

I for one would love to have access to the real facts of this case... :wise:

[SOPLAND]

I think you guys are missing Bentllama's point. There is no doubt there is a problem with the game industry from the top down. As the games continue to grow in magnitude, so will the responsabilities of the managing parties. This will one day fix itself. But who knows how long that could take? More time then some could have for a carreer? I believe Bentllama is giving a more proactive nudge. Artists need to have the confidence to stand up to wrongdoings. blah blah blah blah
First of all, he is standing up for himself, secondly, this problem won't fix it's self eventually, and thirdly I understand what bentlamma is saying problem is bentlamma's logic is flawed to the core.

It doesn't matter if he waited 3 and a half years to do this, maybe he got tired of it, or maybe he hated it from day one and decided to give VU plenty of rope to hang themselves real good. The fact is no matter how many artists stand up and refuse to work uncompensated overtime, there are always plenty of idiots out there willing to sell their soul for a crappy game job. This guy though, by getting the court involved, is going to make every producer/publisher think real hard about uncompensated overtime whether the employees are willing to do it or not.

[halo]

http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1793_14427781.jpg

http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1793_12601242.jpg

http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1793_2887049.jpg

[bentllama]

First of all, he is standing up for himself, secondly, this problem won't fix it's self eventually, and thirdly I understand what bentlamma is saying problem is bentlamma's logic is flawed to the core.
we could mutually agree that each other's logic wholly flawed...the problem with that, it does not further the constructive debate on this topic.

he waited 3 years to take proactive countermeasures. how many of you would wait that long to see a doctor about accute pain?

we will all do better in this industry if we take a stand against what wrongs us in the beginning, at the first sight of counter-balance. as a group we cannot wait until after the fact, indeed then it is almost too late...

[SOPLAND]

Dude, you flip like a chinese acrobat... what happened to "suck it up, whiney babies"?

I said you're logic is flawed because it's readily apparent, and it seems like alot of people in this thread agree. What is happening here is a crime, and this programmer is doing something about it. Since you're such a fan of ridiculous analogies how about this... Would you tell a woman, who'd decided after 10 years of physical abuse by her husband, to get the law involved to "suck it up whiney baby?"

Why it took so long for him to go file a case is completely irrelevant. Why he let it go on is completely irrelevant. VU and many other companies are ignoring the law, and this guy is really doing something about it once and for all. It could end his career in games but win or lose it's going to have some positive benefits for eveyone working or wanting to work in the games industry.

I agree that artists should stand up for themselves, but the plain simple truth is that as long as their are people willing to let these game companies take advantage of them, the game companies are going to try to take advantage of everyone. By getting the court involved just one time, this guy is doing a great service to everyone who works in this industry, even people people like bentlamma, who don't don't appreciate it one bit.

[bentllama]

even people people like bentlamma, who don't don't appreciate it one bit.
...and getting personal quantifies your arguement all the more... :rolleyes:

[Boone]

"Aitken said he and his fellow "nonexempt programmers" have been ordered by managers to falsify timesheets to indicate they worked shorter days. "

...I think this would depend on how long Mr Aitken has been "falsifying" his time sheets by company orders. If even true - maybe it was only recently that they told him to falsify his papers and insted of complying, he did something about. However, if he put-up with it for a while then there's little grounds of prosecution due to that one single question - "Why after so-long of wrongly falsifying your time sheets are you prosecuting now? If you knew you were taking part in a crime from the start - why not do something then?"

And I can tell you for nothing - the defense WILL ask that question.

[status quo]

we could mutually agree that each other's logic wholly flawed...the problem with that, it does not further the constructive debate on this topic.

he waited 3 years to take proactive countermeasures. how many of you would wait that long to see a doctor about accute pain?

we will all do better in this industry if we take a stand against what wrongs us in the beginning, at the first sight of counter-balance. as a group we cannot wait until after the fact, indeed then it is almost too late...
dude. if we won't do it india clains they can for 3,000 a year.

if they can't do it china will do it for 1,700 a year.

get what i'm saying?

all though we are much better they don't care. as long as all the figures add up on paper who cares?

thats the attitude. you me everyone is a statistic with a price on their head.

business is about money. you can't strike/union becuase the entire workforce gets sacked and replaced.

i've seen it happen 3 times in varied workplaces.

if you don't take the job. i will. i know it, you know it.

because i want the job and i NEED the money.

[status quo]

"Why after so-long of wrongly falsifying your time sheets are you prosecuting now? If you knew you were taking part in a crime from the start - why not do something then?"
cos' he has enough cash now and doesn't need the job?


i think what the guy is doing is good.

won't change a thing though.

if i didn't come to this site. i would never have read this article.

what makes you think anyone else has?

and i follow the news every day almost.

[froggyplat]

we will all do better in this industry if we take a stand against what wrongs us in the beginning, at the first sight of counter-balance. as a group we cannot wait until after the fact, indeed then it is almost too late...
I agree. But, consider that making those kinds of demands when you are new to the company (or industry) probably will prevent you from advancing to a position of authority or respect. The employees that have the best chance of bringing about change are those who have some clout, which means that they have probably already suffered the abuse for a number of years.

However, if he put-up with it for a while then there's little grounds of prosecution due to that one single question - "Why after so-long of wrongly falsifying your time sheets are you prosecuting now? If you knew you were taking part in a crime from the start - why not do something then?"
Not true. He is the injured party. Employers have a position of authority over their employees and courts recognize this and hold them accountable for abusing that authority. For example, consider the lawsuit that's taking place against Wal-Mart right now. Millions of women are suing because they claim that for years Wal-Mart practiced sexual discrimination in the workplace. The judge isn't going to throw the case out and say "Well, you put up with it so obviously no crime has been committed." He's going to examine the evidence that supports their claim.

[Boone]

Re: FroggyPlait.

Well, of course it depends on what fine details are presented to the court. But if its a case of "their word against my mine." - he better have a good reason for "holding out". :hmm:

[psyop63b]

halo: nice posters. Where can I get one? :D

[Lunatique]

we will all do better in this industry if we take a stand against what wrongs us in the beginning, at the first sight of counter-balance. as a group we cannot wait until after the fact, indeed then it is almost too late...And my hypothetical question to you remains. What would you do if you were faced with the situation I proposed(page 4 of this thread)? What actions can you take against that? I'm actually want to know because we need all the help we can get, and your input and ideas will become part of that brainstorming/force to push back against the tide of the current industry trend.

[EnriqueHavoc]

The video game industry needs a union.

[halo]

@ psyop63b - despair.com :)

[bentllama]

And my hypothetical question to you remains. What would you do if you were faced with the situation I proposed(page 4 of this thread)? What actions can you take against that? I'm actually want to know because we need all the help we can get, and your input and ideas will become part of that brainstorming/force to push back against the tide of the current industry trend.I have been in that situation before with less experience and fewer quality titles under my belt. I laid everything on the table with the several studios I interviewed. I held out for what the best offer was for me, and my wife. I would not choose to repeat that drama unless I was forced to, and given certain cirmcumstances it could be by choice based on principals and errors against an original agreement...only this time I would be out there with a better reel and more experience.

Even though I am gainfully employed by a great company, I still do not sit comfortable. After every project one has to remain poker-faced, and update one's demo reel...because like you said Lunatique, when working in games [and film too], you never know what can happen...but when something awry happens, you will be damn certain I will make something good come out of it. I did the last time...

...I do have more to say about current industry trends, but it is a long winded post and one that may not be entirely suitable within this thread...however when I have a free moment or 30, I will write it out and post it here...

[eshiu]

what a bunch of whiny babies.

suck it up and accept the necessary part of development.

it is your responsibility to make sure you know the rewards and consequences of possible crunchtimes while in thier employ. if you do not like it, then leave. you will have no one to blame but yourself.



The fact still remains that it is ILLEGAL not to get paid for overtime. These laws are there for a reason. The only people to balme are people like you who, by working insanely hours, make the management realize that there are poeple likie that out there and that they can take advantage of them. Tell me, if you only had had 5 minutes to live, would you be worrying about that render back at work?

[charleyc]

it is illegal to not get paid overtime if you are being paid hourly. Many companies (in all industries) use salerys to get around this. I don't think anyone is arguing the point that this particular company is definatly in the wrong. But don't be foolish to think that all your time needs compinsation. It is very easy for companies to curcumvent labor laws for their own profit. The idea of knowing the rewards and concaquenses for ones carreer descisions are simple this; are you making enough money? At the end of the day/month/year, are you making enough to satisfy the work you are doing. To some this amount is obviously less. The idea is to make yourself more valuable to a company. If a company is so greedy that they do not rightly compensate their employees, the experienced talent should move one. In the end this will hurt the company. There should be little to no artist graduating directly from school who are of more value to a company then a seasoned vetern. If you find this to be the case and you are the vetern, then you should ask yourself if you need to improve yourself somehow. Do you need to become more talented, do you need to work harder, do you need to work faster...? This is as big a problem to any industry as corrupt employers. So before you get too carried away with attacking companies, look closely at the employees as well. This is were the rewards for staying at a company that is building your corporate worth comes in. Perhaps a company is mismanaged, but you are gaining valuable experiance, as long as the bent imorality is within legal boundries it is really up the individual to decide when its too much. I definately encourage one to stand against illegal acts on either side of employment, but be sure you are not part of a riot instigation that will bring down good people along with the bad. You may one day be that good person when the axe falls.

[bentllama]

The fact still remains that it is ILLEGAL not to get paid for overtime. These laws are there for a reason. The only people to balme are people like you who, by working insanely hours, make the management realize that there are poeple likie that out there and that they can take advantage of them. Tell me, if you only had had 5 minutes to live, would you be worrying about that render back at work?
you have no idea what kind of hours I work, so please refrain from making blind accusations.

[heavyness]

since everyone is barking up the "anti-overtime" bandwagon, i would like to say it boilds down to if you believed in the project or if your just there for a paycheck. i don't blame Bentllama for defending his view. if i landed a job at a triple A studio that put out one hell of a game, i would be willing to work overtime on the sequel. i really don't think anyone working in the game industry makes under 35 a year, so putting a couple extra hours in wont hurt. before we start pointing fingers at each other, we need to look at studio heads, managers, and the publishers who push crazy deadlines, not the artist working in the trenches.

man landed on the moon, and i don't think the people at NASA just worked their 40 hours a week. also, if anyone in the Seattle area is uspet with their job, i'll switch you my two deadends jobs for your 35+ a year game job. i work overtime everyday on my portfolio, so extra hours at the studio wont hurt.

[eshiu]

you have no idea what kind of hours I work, so please refrain from making blind accusations.


i'm not blindly accusing anyone of anything...it just seems like you were judging people by accusing them of being "winey babies" and that I should "suck it up as it is the neccecary part of development". I have worked many jobs and can say that while managment is partly to blame, it is also the artist who alow it to happen. I'm sorry if what I said sounded personal , but I've been in too many instances when everyone is complaining about the hours and no pay and turn around and do nothing about it. I'm usally at those meeting where I'm voicing my opinions and while I know other people are feeling the same, noone every stands up.If people will just unite and ask for what fair as a team, then I think we can get somewhere.

[stevopolis]

I can't even believe some of you are disputing the problem here.
I know our industry currently is how it is, put up or shut up. But
to sit there and say that you can deal with it, so why doesn't every
one else handle it the same way, is plain ignorant. First of all, not
every one is like you. We should start to look out for our industry
and other artists coming up in the ranks.

Bentllama, it seems like your only concerned with yourself. You
should be concerned for this industry and other young artists or
technicians. I've been fortunate to work in numerous industries
doing 3D (anything from defense to film), and I must say that there
is a serious problem in the entertainment industry. People don't matter
to these companies at all.

1) company hires employee for contract work
2) company fires or lets go employee
3) If employee is good, he/she goes somewhere else and gets
a raise for 30% more. If employee is average, employee gets
whores him/herself off to another company for cheaper
4) employee always eventually comes back to same studio with
a 50% raise from what she/he originally earned.

Management is actually losing money. I see this constantly...
Most industries have established salaries that companies can sustain
employees throughout a longer time. There is very little stability in our
industry, and this equals a major problem.

[bentllama]

If people will just unite and ask for what fair as a team, then I think we can get somewhere.
and I will further quote myself...

until people stop whining after the fact, and talk about it...or get it in writing before the fact...the industry will keep doing these sort of things.
by me taking a stand for my self before employment, i am one person contributing to the plight to end the fashions of permanent overtime.

[Boone]

All right - so we have all this bickering, now.

Some one suggested a "union" of somekind for the games industry...why not just do it? Surely if it means so much to us - then its something that should be addressed...

[Bonedaddy]

I dunno why y'all are jumping on bentllama. All he's saying is "You have to look out for yourself," as far as I can tell -- which is perfectly sensible advice. While yes, it would be idyllic to have a union, have more money, have more time, have more this and that, it is not realistic to expect widespread adoption of standards-of-living laws anytime soon.

Some workplaces will try to screw you. This is a universal constant.

Years of social activism has taught me that change won't -- can't -- come all at once, and I get the impression that some of you expect that it will, and soon. Baby steps, baby steps.

[mummey]

All right - so we have all this bickering, now.

Some one suggested a "union" of somekind for the games industry...why not just do it? Surely if it means so much to us - then its something that should be addressed...
There are too many who "would do anything" to get into games and thus ruin the concept. Even though there are not as good, the employers are more willing to hire these "sheep" than get people who are good at their job.

[Boone]

Re: BoneDaddy.

Yes, I agree that through "Baby-steps" some kind of system, such as a union or possibly new laws, will see the light of day. :thumbsup:

[SOPLAND]

I dunno why y'all are jumping on bentllama. All he's saying is "You have to look out for yourself,"
If that's all he had to say no one would've jumped on him. He refered to what this programmer is doing as "bitching", called anyone who didn't agree with him a whiney baby. He even basicly said that unpaid overtime is a necessary part of development. He's aping that "this isn't a job it's a lifestyle" attitude, which is complete BS.

I for one don't want a union, that's the last thing I do want. What I want is for employers to be reasonable and held accountable when they pull crap like this. I have no problem working overtime... but I damn well better get paid for it.

[bentllama]

If that's all he had to say no one would've jumped on him. He refered to what this programmer is doing as "bitching", called anyone who didn't agree with him a whiney baby. He even basicly said that unpaid overtime is a necessary part of development. He's aping that "this isn't a job it's a lifestyle" attitude, which is complete BS.
...and getting personal quantifies your arguement all the more... :rolleyes:

I stand up for myself, just as everyone in the industry has the responsibility to...but I do it BEFORE the problems arise...

ever hear of the term "ground rules"?

[halo]

ah...i get it now.

You should be able to predict every eventuality where your contract may allow or the law may allow your employer to take advantage of you and if thats not acceptable then you should either rework your contract or not accept it.

Of course, this is why employment laywers are struggling for work, because there are so many people out there that know it all before it happens in the first place. ;)

I dont think Sopland is getting personal BL, hes just clarifying what people are disagreeing with you about. He called your opinion BS, not you a whiney babe.

Anyway, i think what im trying to say is that you cant know every problem or possible problem and no contract covers every eventuality and the law doesnt help. Employees and employers have different amounts of clout with each other in different scenarios. The gaming industry has a wide amount of unprofessional practices from bottom to top, this is definately one that needs addressing. It may be possible to do it at the employee level within your company, but its definately not possible to resolve it in some companies where options for their employees may not have been so great as yours.

Remember, you got what you asked for, but you only got what was on offer and what you were given. If its not on the table anywhere, you cant get it.

[stevopolis]

Now that I see people are in dispute of such problems, I understand why the
CG industry is unstable and ultimately doomed. If you only care about the
deal or contract you scored, then the industry as a collective whole is doomed.

If you are a senior person, you should do your best to inform and maintain
standards within the industry. If you don't understand this concept, you
simply have not worked in any other industries (ie: finance, marketing,
internet commerce, and so forth)...

NOT ALL INDUSTRIES ARE LIKE THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.
let me repeat:
NOT ALL INDUSTRIES ARE LIKE THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.

Even better, it doesn't have to be like this.

[Bonedaddy]

He even basicly said that unpaid overtime is a necessary part of development.
I've never had to do that so far, I guess I've been lucky. I agree that unpaid overtime is a Bad Thing, but I would do it -- if I was really loyal to the company/film/game/idea/cause. I see a divide, especially between students and professionals, over seeing this profession as a job or art. Sometimes, you're a craftsman, pumping out a bad idea for a bad movie/game for bad management. In that case, yeah, since you're only working for the money, I'd want overtime. But sometimes I feel that if there's a real team spirit to the whole venture, and that we all have something vested in the end result, then it's worth it to put in a few more hours. But that's me personally.

I take issue with those who blame crunch time on poor management and/or greed. Perhaps that is the case sometimes, but films/video games are finicky beasts. Producing one is like herding cats. You have NO IDEA what will go wrong, and yet you're having to make concrete promises about when you can release it. Crunch time is there because something ALWAYS goes wrong. No matter how much you pad the budget/timeline, something will always rear its head.

[status quo]

I've never had to do that so far, I guess I've been lucky. I agree that unpaid overtime is a Bad Thing, but I would do it -- if I was really loyal to the company/film/game/idea/cause. I see a divide, especially between students and professionals, over seeing this profession as a job or art. Sometimes, you're a craftsman, pumping out a bad idea for a bad movie/game for bad management. In that case, yeah, since you're only working for the money, I'd want overtime. But sometimes I feel that if there's a real team spirit to the whole venture, and that we all have something vested in the end result, then it's worth it to put in a few more hours. But that's me personally.

I take issue with those who blame crunch time on poor management and/or greed. Perhaps that is the case sometimes, but films/video games are finicky beasts. Producing one is like herding cats. You have NO IDEA what will go wrong, and yet you're having to make concrete promises about when you can release it. Crunch time is there because something ALWAYS goes wrong. No matter how much you pad the budget/timeline, something will always rear its head.
but why should the employee take all the risk instead of the employer who will ultimately make the profit?

overtime deserves to get paid. your yearly salary can be calculated to an hourly sum. hell i get double pay for overtime.

now if it was voluntary ie the employer out of desperation is asking you to do them a favour at crunch time. - no problem.

but trying to stiff you and forcing you unpaid overtime is an insult to me.

also i don't expect double time. just my per hours wage as calculated. and to reflect this at the end of the month instead of stealing from me. thats exactly what the are theifs. couldn't be put better.

[bentllama]

I take issue with those who blame crunch time on poor management and/or greed. Perhaps that is the case sometimes, but films/video games are finicky beasts. Producing one is like herding cats. You have NO IDEA what will go wrong, and yet you're having to make concrete promises about when you can release it. Crunch time is there because something ALWAYS goes wrong. No matter how much you pad the budget/timeline, something will always rear its head.Quoted for agreement.

The title on my business card is one of humour. Everyone here generally uses some humourous title for thier cards..."Billy G's Right Hand Man, Phrenoligist, Tom Foolery Expert, etc...for me, the choice was "Motion Zealot + Demolitions Expert". "Demolitions Expert" was an obvious choice since I am so often diffusing bombs...most of which during crunch time at the tail end of the project.

For the record, I never said that UNPAID overtime is a necessary part of development...just overtime. If you are doing unpaid overtime, then you did not make sure beforehand that you would be covered monetarily for your overtime services. It is your fault. Speak up when you get hired about it, or when it starts...do not wait 3 years to cry about something you could have taken action on in the first week.

PS: Is this thread still going on?

[status quo]

Quoted for agreement.

The title on my business card is one of humour. Everyone here generally uses some humourous title for thier cards..."Billy G's Right Hand Man, Phrenoligist, Tom Foolery Expert, etc...for me, the choice was "Motion Zealot + Demolitions Expert". "Demolitions Expert" was an obvious choice since I am so often diffusing bombs...most of which during crunch time at the tail end of the project.

For the record, I never said that UNPAID overtime is a necessary part of development...just overtime. If you are doing unpaid overtime, then you did not make sure beforehand that you would be covered monetarily for your overtime services. It is your fault. Speak up when you get hired about it, or when it starts...do not wait 3 years to cry about something you could have taken action on in the first week.

PS: Is this thread still going on?you did say unpaid overtime is neccessary. and called people a whiney baby.

if you didn't this thread would have finished a while back.

speak up when you get hired? when you speak up they twist the words so that it sounds different from what it is.

plus the contract. you need a damn lawyer to understand the things. speaking like were in the 19th century or something.

yes this thread is still going on, if your not intrested then let people have there say.

edit: and if you say that in the first week, you'll find yourself out the door in the second.

CG industry doesn't have long term contracts.

[halo]

BL - i thought you said on your first post that if he was on a salary then not being paid for overtime was something that he should accept...

i dont think anyone is saying that crunch time is not acceptable, or that its always avoidable...i think what the majority of people are saying is that they dont mind doing a little crunch time now and then to help with the cause, but that they dont want extended crunch time to make up for bad management and they would like to be rewarded for it, if its going to happen a lot, in some manner beyond the feeling that they may have saved their neck.

A lot of contracts contain a clause about working a little extra when needed, but not many of them actual define whats a little and what is a lot.

On a side note, in the UK, you can demand a break from your screen if you work on one, but the legislation only defines that the duration and frequency are down to negotiaition with you and your employer...ie there is not statutary break for working on a machine apart from the normal breaks in statute like lunch etc. unless you can get your boss to agree with one. It doesnt demand that there is one, only that there should be one...not the same thing.
So basically the law allows for some hefty abuse, without the employee having a proper leg to stand on.

Its often a little disconcerting to start asking how much time off you'll get when your asking for someone for a living.

[bentllama]

sorry status quo...

...but I am in crunch time right now and haven't the time or energy to argue with you, since I am getting compensated for my time...

[Boone]

This bickering is pointless - Lord Vader shall retrieve the plans for the Death Star and then we will destroy the Rebellion with one, swift, stroke... :p

Lets all just make-out...sorry - make-up - okay? :deal:

Re: Bentllama.

Crunch time is difficult and tiring - Best of wishes to you and your chums at Bungie! :beer:

[status quo]

BL - i thought you said on your first post that if he was on a salary then not being paid for overtime was something that he should accept...

i dont think anyone is saying that crunch time is not acceptable, or that its always avoidable...i think what the majority of people are saying is that they dont mind doing a little crunch time now and then to help with the cause, but that they dont want extended crunch time to make up for bad management and they would like to be rewarded for it, if its going to happen a lot, in some manner beyond the feeling that they may have saved their neck.

A lot of contracts contain a clause about working a little extra when needed, but not many of them actual define whats a little and what is a lot.

On a side note, in the UK, you can demand a break from your screen if you work on one, but the legislation only defines that the duration and frequency are down to negotiaition with you and your employer...ie there is not statutary break for working on a machine apart from the normal breaks in statute like lunch etc. unless you can get your boss to agree with one. It doesnt demand that there is one, only that there should be one...not the same thing.
So basically the law allows for some hefty abuse, without the employee having a proper leg to stand on.

Its often a little disconcerting to start asking how much time off you'll get when your asking for someone for a living.by law do you have to get paid for your breaks?
also an they force you to take breaks and not pay you?
and set the time?

:cries:

[slaughters]

... I would do it -- if I was really loyal to the company/film/game/idea/cause...In the business world Loyalty is a one way street. Never expect loyalty from an employer because all you mean to them is how much money they can make off of you. The second they start losing money you'll be dumped.

When push comes to shove, it's the employee that gets shoved (right onto the street).

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