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Array
07-24-2002, 05:30 PM
read it here:

http://www.deathfall.com/article.php?sid=1095

i cant believe this happened. shame on nvidia.

Leonard
07-24-2002, 05:57 PM
I'm checking in with the guys at Exluna about this. I will give an update shortly.

L.

Grey
07-24-2002, 06:01 PM
the download BMRT link is disabled...

cgSquad
07-24-2002, 09:59 PM
Shit. i had it in my hdisk. i deleted it thinking that i dont need it yet.

Can any one upload it one net.

Leonard
07-25-2002, 01:52 AM
Yup. Unfortunately it's true. I got word from a friend at Exluna.

Leo

meloncully
07-25-2002, 02:05 AM
that really does suck. I am glad i got bmrt before it went. I have v2.6 btw.

man, does that suck. I dont know why they discontinued them.

Leonard
07-25-2002, 02:13 AM
Could be something to do with the Pixar settlement....maybe it's just not 'viable' to continue a RenderMan-compliant renderer that competes with Steve Jobs'.

Besides, I'm sure that in time we'll see something good come out this. This is all just part of being in this crazy industry.

Leo

Array
07-25-2002, 02:44 AM
i still dont understand why they had to discontinue BMRT. BMRT was the path many fledgling shader programmers and TD's took in order to eventually use tools like prman. im pretty furious about this, as it looks like i wont have a renderman course next year (we use bmrt).

i understand why steve jobbs doesnt like Entropy though, as he has quite a record of suing competitors into oblivion. there wasnt really any proof of trade secret violations. most likely, larry gritz did nothing wrong, but just buckled under steve's financial clout.

Grey
07-25-2002, 03:05 AM
Didn't BMRT come out before Larry Gritz went to work for Pixar?

If so, the guy's got the BMRT Source code :D

All he has to do is re-compile it and call it something else...

meloncully
07-25-2002, 03:28 AM
BSMRT

Blue surface moon rendering tools

heh.

CitizenVertex
07-25-2002, 04:08 AM
It sucks, but it's possible that the discontinuation of BMRT and Entropy has more to do with Nvidia than the Pixar suit. From what I read, what was the dispute between Pixar and Exluna was all about Exluna's GI immplmentation. Doesn't sound like enough to warrant ceasing development and distribution on two renderers.

Here's what I see.

Nvidia has CG, but by many accounts, ATI's Render Monkey is better, it has applications beyond realtime.

Nvidia want's to beef up their high level shading language and move their hardware into high end production.

Entropy isn't selling well because Exluna targetted Max. Brazil has a stranglehold there. The only reason for any studio to use Entropy is as a ray server for Pixar's Renderman. Later this year, Renderman gets GI, so Entropy is dead anyway.

They stopped development on BMRT a long time ago, so BMRT is dead.

Nvidia and Exluna are looking to leapfrog ahead of all the competition and provide a hardware/software rendering solution that'll dominate the ultra high end film industry, broadcast, games, right on down to web development.

Looks like we are going to see a Renderman like hardware accelerated renderer or toolsuite from Nvidia in the near future. A beefed up Cg toolkit with some artist friendly tools, and a somewhat artist friendly scripting language. I think Nvidia and ATI both have the mindset that hardware accelerated rendering is the future, and Pixar won't be headed in that direction probably for at least another year. So Nvidia becomes the one stop rendering solution for the entire CG industry.

Array
07-25-2002, 04:24 AM
the lawsuit was over a method for anti-aliasing which was supposedly stolen by larry gritz.

part of nvidia's settlment with pixar was that nvidia would halt distribution of bmrt all together, and to freeze the development of Entropy

CitizenVertex
07-25-2002, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by Array
the lawsuit was over a method for anti-aliasing which was supposedly stolen by larry gritz.

part of nvidia's settlment with pixar was that nvidia would halt distribution of bmrt all together, and to freeze the development of Entropy

Where did you read this?

Leonard
07-25-2002, 04:38 AM
I can confirm that the lawsuit was about the stochatic anti-aliasing issue. Same as a few years ago when Microsoft bought Softimage only to have Pixar sue them over the use of stochatic anti-aliasing in Mental Ray.

But the terms of settlement RE: Pixar/NVIDIA, that I haven't spoken with anyone who can confim it. Sounds legit enough, but could be speculation...

Leo

Grey
07-25-2002, 04:48 AM
That's it...

Steve Jobs is the devil...

Grab your pichforks!

Array
07-25-2002, 05:10 AM
grey- check out the comp.graphics.rendering.renderman newsgroup

also, apparently you can find a lot of papers on stochastic sampling on the net:

http://www.siggraph.org/education/materials/HyperGraph/aliasing/alias5.htm

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~lastra/Courses/Papers/Cook_Stochastic_Sampling_TOG86.pdf

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:ZiwUhSfkblwC:www2.sis.pitt.edu/~dist/phd/theses/Cheng.pdf+stochastic+sampling&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.cs.wpi.edu/~matt/courses/cs563/talks/antialiasing/stochas.html

how is this a trade secret if it is publicly available info?

MrMunkily
07-25-2002, 05:35 AM
I think it's a patent...

CitizenVertex
07-25-2002, 06:22 AM
It's not a trade secret, it's a patent issue. People publish papers on their advancements and discoveries all the time but it doesn't mean anyone is free to use their solutions.

Without knowing the inside story, this becomes a chicken/egg discussion.

This Nvidia buyout may have been in motion long before the lawsuit was filed. These things don't happen overnight. Killing Entropy and BMRT may have been part of the settlement agreement, but also could have been inevitable anyway. The settlement doesn't mean Larry Gritz and Exluna are guilty of anything. It's not a conviction or a judgement. It may have just been a way for Exluna to clear the lawsuit without a lengthy, expensive court battle, and allow Nvidia to proceed with the buyout. No one wants to buy a company with a potentially expensive lawsuit hanging over it's shoulders. Say Exluna knew Nvidia wanted to buy them, and they knew the buyout means killing Entropy and BMRT, but the buyout will be lucrative and offer a more stable and prosperous future for their technology. Pixar knows nothing of the buyout or Exluna's future plans and files the lawsuit. Exluna decides to offer up Entropy and BMRT as sacrificial lambs to get out of the lawsuit and proceed with the buyout. Pixar gets what they want and it's no skin off Exluna's back because they were going to kill the renderers anyway. It's a winning situation for everyone and spares them all exspensive legal fees and loss of good will in the industry.

Or, maybe Exluna was hurting, the Pixar suit was the final nail, and Nvidia swooped in to pick Exluna's carcass.

Either version is entirely plausible.

Array
07-25-2002, 07:03 AM
nvidia bought exluna, then settled the lawsuit

cgSquad
07-26-2002, 01:37 PM
if some one crack entropy to use it for unlimited use. who can stop him. i mean that exluna is dead.

arvid
07-26-2002, 02:46 PM
Steve "Discontinue" Jobs...

...his ass needs to be discontinued.

frog
07-26-2002, 04:29 PM
Why kill off BMRT? It makes me seethe :mad:. So what if it was unsupported and hadn't been develloped for a while? It was still a free way into renderman...

What's more, Pixar themselves were more than happy to use it when they needed a rayserver for scenes in a Bug's Life!! Of course, now that PRMan is about to have raytracing and GI the competition must be killed off.

Steve jobs seriously hacks me off. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

lgrant
07-26-2002, 08:50 PM
If you want a free way into Renderman, you might consider the free, open source, Aqsis renderer (http://www.aqsis.com).

I have heard that it is rather slow at this point. (They haven't had time to optimize.) Hard for me to tell, because the things I've been rendering aren't large enough for that to be an issue.

The documentation is also *very* sparse, but if you have the BMRT or Renderman doc, you can probably puzzle it out. And the developer is very good about answering emailed questions.

It is Renderman compliant, and it supports the same shader language as BMRT and Renderman. So if you were using BMRT to hone you shader-writing ability, Aqsis might just be the ticket.

Lynn Grant
Castle Development Group

Array
07-26-2002, 08:57 PM
just a clarification for all those that care, Renderman is a standard. PRMan (photo realistic renderman) is Pixar's implementation of the Renderman standard. BMRT, Entropy, Air, Aqsis, RenderDotC etc etc are all also implementations of this standard.

Grey
07-27-2002, 03:41 AM
as is the new Firefly engine... (I wonder if Pixar's going to turn around and sue CuriousLabs over it... something tells me they will...)

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