CGTalk - Things Missing in the awesome V8

LucentDreams

07-24-2002, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
also HDRI and SubSurfaceScattering could be taken from finalRender's Cebas technology hehehehe :p

HDRI images can now be brought directly into R8, though they will currently render like anyother image, part of the reson for this is that max users can't use HDR shop, so that wasmade to be a huge concern, but the fact is I think this would be so they can add it easily later on, They were too busy with some other great Cebas addition to get to these two though, and despite how easy it sounds, it is a lot of work to get stuff designed for one program to work properly in another. And don't forget TP comes in the XL bundle which makes it far cheaper than te max version :)

ADAM I'll put a little fight in for this but I think if anything does happen it would likely be for the updates not in R8, I'll see though as many users seem to be pleaing for this one al of a suden, which Ironicaly wasn't mentioned at all that I can think of in PF, here, or the cow.

LucentDreams

07-24-2002, 03:50 PM

I just watched that weighting video, and trust me ours is a lot easier and faster, All you do while modelign is hold down one button and slide your mouse and the selection gets weighted, that easy, doesn't impare my modeling speed at all, no rightclicking going through what looked like thee menus (hard to follow that video and you can't scrub or rewind :/ )

AdamT

07-24-2002, 04:10 PM

Kai,
That would be great if you could bend someone's ear about it. It definitely *was* mentioned on the Postforum, and on several occassions. I know MV was going off about it a few months ago, and I think (but not sure) that I put this suggestion in directly to Maxon on their support page. Anyway, I do think it's a big issue that should be addressed ASAP.

LucentDreams

07-25-2002, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by AdamT
Kai,
That would be great if you could bend someone's ear about it. It definitely *was* mentioned on the Postforum, and on several occassions. I know MV was going off about it a few months ago, and I think (but not sure) that I put this suggestion in directly to Maxon on their support page. Anyway, I do think it's a big issue that should be addressed ASAP.

Don't remeber this from PF but perhaps just too long for my small little brain to remeber :) As for sugestions direct to Maxon I don't know about those, my mistake, anyways consider it mentioned. though I know many Maxon memebrs and beta testers have read the posts on both forums regarding this.

kiwi

07-25-2002, 10:31 AM

Good on ya Kai :)

I am going to buy the XL bundle to save some cash,which means I am going to end up with 2 copies of Pyrocluster,just curious any of you other guys in the same boat? :)

Stu.

LucentDreams

07-25-2002, 03:44 PM

try findng somone with say XL 6/7 and seey if they are nterested in purchasing PC if they aren't upgrading.

Grey

07-25-2002, 03:47 PM

I'm using XL6.3

I can't figure out what Kai's talking about...

AdamT

07-25-2002, 03:51 PM

It's possible Maxon would offer a discount if you already own Pyrocluster. Definitely worth a phone call.

Grey

07-25-2002, 03:57 PM

<----just figured it out...

I do plan on upgrading to XL8... but I'm not sure if I'll be getting just the base platform or XL bundle...

LucentDreams

07-25-2002, 04:04 PM

well look at what you wan to do and such,seriously I think that for many people the XL bundle is a little much, so I would suggest looking at the R8 and then specific modules, and then if the price is really close to the XL bundle then mightr as wel get the whole thing right???

Grey

07-25-2002, 04:16 PM

that's pretty much how I'm thinking.

I'm not sure if I'll ever need Mocca, for instance. I'm actively evaluating Messiah now to see how well I can pick it up (there are issues already, but probably solvable).

That said, the demo animation of Mocca had my jaw on the floor...

The thinking particles I don't think I can live without... Advance Render... maybe (now that Exluna's no longer a factor)...

I may very well be interested in Pyrocluster.

VSLX

07-25-2002, 05:43 PM

Well guys... I love Cinema, but I have to admit it's not a highend program... it lacks many things.

I also use XSI and I can say that modeling in XSI is so damn fast, faster than in any other application. The shortcuts it got... incredible.
Many functions... I like a lot the one called Extrude along Curve/Nurb...
Then Hypernurbing, you just have to press "+" and it's fixed... or "-" to subtract the factor...
Another thing XSI got... it's a "thing" called Mental Ray:rolleyes:

And so on... SoftImage is a tool of Gods... there's no application that can be compared with it in my opinion...
Cinema can be going, but I think it needs a lot more improvements to climb on the scale of the apps. 3DS is the closest rival so far, and it's the "worst" amoung the best applications. Cinema lacks many things to get even close to 3DS.

AdamT

07-25-2002, 07:17 PM

And XSI costs how much?

Grey

07-25-2002, 07:36 PM

3DS gets the bulk of its function from plugins.

XSI is truly high end, of course... but I'm not going to shell out money I can't justify for it... (maybe if they lowered the price to say $2,000...)

I don't know how stable XSI is, but at the price they're asking for it, it had better NEVER ever crash.

Cinema4D doesn't crash, and that's it's single best feature, IMHO.

VSLX

07-25-2002, 11:03 PM

That's it... if I'm gonna go for real 3D stuff... I pay a lot of money but I get the best tool on the market...

Unless I'm not restricted with the budget... then I would probably get Lightwave............ it can serve for almost anything and it's not so expensive as Maya or SoftImage...

Anyway I think that Cinema will become a highend tool, maybe in next 2-3 releases. They should make a better interface, something easier to customize the layout...

AdamT

07-25-2002, 11:34 PM

Anyway I think that Cinema will become a highend tool, maybe in next 2-3 releases. They should make a better interface, something easier to customize the layout...

Have you ever actually used Cinema?! The interface is totally customizable! Can you possibly be suggesting the LW has a better interface?! It may be time to give up the booze.

kiwi

07-25-2002, 11:43 PM

I have tried talking to people at Maxon guys and the word I keep on getting is that there is the studio bundle,and the XL bundle,or the modules,and if you want dynamics you go for studio,if you want the other deal you go XL,there seems to be no wiggle room.But if I buy the studio bundle then I get 2 x pyro,and 2 x BP3d.And with the XL bundle 2 x pyro.If the modules were going to be cheaper then they are now I would not have a problem,but with the bundles having 30% off adding a Dynamics module at todays pricing would cost almost the same as the whole bundle again,and there is no way I could afford studio without BP3d and pyro being removed from the pricing,but then again I suppose the idea of a bundle is that you cant mix and match it :)

But then again if I can get 30% off I havent really go much to bitch about have I :)

What do you guys think of Dynamics?.....is it really necessary,or does it just speed work flow for time consuming physics areas of anis,or does it enable you to do things you could not with normal C4D even if you had the time up your sleeve to do so.

Stu.

kiwi

07-26-2002, 12:01 AM

As for Max if they dont lower their prices they will stop attracting new blood at an alarming rate,I mean who is going to pay more for Max when they can get Maya or XSI for,not sure but I think its less.It is possible if there is not change that they {Max} could be squeezed right out of the market.

As for C4D as it grows and cash flow improves steadily so will R and D money as well.Look at how 8 has improved just as the news of C4D,s popularity arises.And I think as cashflow does improve it wont be long before we have on par goodies to work with,and after that stage who knows maybe C4D will be seen as one of the new innovators in the 3D world :)

But rest assured if C4D does keep growing at its current rate there will be another pricing battle I feel,and I would not be surprised to see one of the big apps lick its wounds and go off in a different direction from 3D as the profitably just cannot be spread widely enough anymore :)

Stu.

VSLX

07-26-2002, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by AdamT

Have you ever actually used Cinema?! The interface is totally customizable! Can you possibly be suggesting the LW has a better interface?! It may be time to give up the booze.

Hah... LW got a lot better interface.
Why?

1.) The UI layout is more confortable for the views. While bigger res. bigger are only the viewports. That gives lot more space. There's only one menu, on the left and it has fixed size.

2.) It got buttons with it's name written. Up you change the type of menu in order to modify whatever you need.

3.) Cinema has a bit buggy control of viewports. For instance if you want to rotate the angle or zoom in/out using the interface. Sometimes it's too slow and not so easy to control

4.) It works with Modeler and Composer, separated... which makes your work easier because of 2 stages, and the less complicated interface (2 in 2, is less than 2 in one)

I got two screenshots of work areas on small res. such as 1152 x 864:
LightWave (http://www.vslxperience.com/svashta/lw.jpg)
Cinema (http://www.vslxperience.com/svashta/cinema.jpg)

LW's viewports are some 90% of the screen width.... what about Cinema?

Which looks bigger and better?
When I work in Cinema, I work mainly with perspective, but in LW I can work with all 4 views and it's just perfect.

Cinema is easier to learn... it does not have so many features, and it's robust and excellent for modeling...
That's all...
Which good movie is made in Cinema?

AdamT

07-26-2002, 02:32 AM

As I suggested, you don't seem to be familiar with Cinema's interface. First, use the small icons--that will eliminate the second row of icons you have on top and will expand the top and sides.

Second, with Cinema you have the object manager and coords/tool windows always available. I use them all the time so I consider that a good thing. They don't cover the viewports. If you need those functions in LW you have to open a separate (large) window that will obscure your modeling space.

Third, if space is at that much of a premium get a larger, or better yet, second monitor! It's pretty cheap and it should solve all your problems with Cinema's layout. Not so with LW.

I consider the separate modeler/layout to be LW's absolute worst feature. It's incredibly inconvenient to have to switch back and forth every time you need to tweak something. I also find LW's tabs to be totally unintuitive. Admittedly I haven't spent that much time working in LW, but I found myself constantly flipping through tabs trying to find the tool/function I was looking for. With Cinema, OTOH, I "got it" right away and was productive almost from the start. I guess in that respect it's a question of personal preference or working style.

Anyways, if LW makes you happy more power to you. It's a very capable program.

Oh, regarding movies in which Cinema was used, to name a few: Star Wars 2-The Attack of the Clones, Spiderman, The Mummy Returns, Gladiator, and Tomb Raider. I don't dispute that LW has been used in more productions, but Cinema is catching up fast.

VSLX

07-26-2002, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by AdamT

Oh, regarding movies in which Cinema was used, to name a few: Star Wars 2-The Attack of the Clones, Spiderman, The Mummy Returns, Gladiator, and Tomb Raider. I don't dispute that LW has been used in more productions, but Cinema is catching up fast.

Hah, that's bullshit men!
What do you want to say, that top movies in FX are made in Cinema? Give me a break, I consider that as joke...
What's the Cinema's render engine?
Hahahahahaha..... Star Wars movie that is one of top 3 in earnings, to be done in Cinema...
Do you know what is Mental Ray? That's the best render engine in this universe. It comes with SoftImage as default redering engine. For Maya you have to buy it apart... for 3DS too, but it does not have nearly good performance as on SoftImage.
There's not ****ing chance that Cinema can render that stuff. It even does not have internal/in program HDRI reflections... it got a lack of nurbs for making characters (in order to animate well you have to use nurb techniques).
SoftImage 3D is the tool with the best Nurb system on this planet. XSI does not have those nurbs, they haven't built it... yet.

Do you know what is SGI?
Do you think that they made those effects on 1ghz PC???
Hah, there's no Cinema 4D for SGI.......

Entire Starwars is done in SoftImage 3D 4.0, Yoda is done totally in it, and other characters... Mummy, both parts.... for Spyderman I'm not sure but you just wrote crap.
Final production is SoftImage... in some movies like Gone in 60 seconds, Fast and furious they used Maya...

While X-Men was entirely made in Lightwave 3D, 6.5...

Only SoftImage, Maya and Lightwave are used in digital film production. 3DS can be used too, but it's more complicated to make models and rendering process is slower, tho it cannot be used on SGI so far as I know...

MENTAL RAY... remember, that's the magic word...

AND READ THIS:
http://www.softimage.com/Community/Xsi/Mag/Features/Oscars_2002/

Here's the main part of the text...
So, who do you think will win the Oscar for Best VFX this year?

This year's nominees are impressive for the quality of the visual effects, and even more so for the number of CG scenes. All of this year's nominees used either SOFTIMAGE|3D or SOFTIMAGE|XSI to create some of those amazingly photorealistic elements, super-cool looking creatures, or to pre-visualize complicated camera set-ups.

Vote for your favourite FX, and read Joanne Latimer's take on the 74th Annual Academy Awards.

:buttrock:

Pate

07-26-2002, 05:23 AM

I think there was a thread where people posted their favourite C4D layouts not a long time ago. I couldn't find it now (I'm still not very familiar with this forum), though...

That thread gave me many good ideas about how to organize the C4D layout so I can see more (I'm using C4D on a laptop with 1024x768 display) without sacrificing ease of use. If you, VSLX, can find that thread, perhaps you too could get more out of the C4D interface?

Not to fuel the software war, but when I was evaluating various 3D softwares, only C4D gave me the "Hey, this is not so difficult, I could learn how to use this!" feeling. I could not make any sense out of Lightwave or 3DSMax interface.

Pate

VSLX

07-26-2002, 05:36 AM

Thank you Pete.
I started with Cinema because it was easy and friendly...

I'm just trying to be objective... Cinema is good but it cannot compete with apps that exist 10 years and more...
That's impossible...

If somebody make Star Wars Episode II in Cinema on PC or MAC, then SGI would probably be broke, and Avid would close the development... because it's a lot cheaper to buy 2000$ software (Cinema4D and adds) and one 2.000$ computer, instead of 150.000$ SGI and some 20.000$ SoftImage with the plugins and adds.

Or maybe I'm wrong???

ndat

07-26-2002, 06:07 AM

Grrrrrrrrrr.... Dont slam me Cinema...

...I love her like my own child...

And you must be drinkin some booze cause lightwaves interface isnt as streamline as cinema's. I mean Lightwave has like 9 tabs with buttons to deal with to find your stuff where Cinema has 1.

9 to 1
9 to 1

poo on U sir, ya boozer

Grey

07-26-2002, 06:18 AM

VSLX,

I really don't care how high end XSI is, in the end the results are what counts.

Mental ray may be a fabulously accurate render engine, but if it isn't efficient AND cost effective, it won't be the #1 choice.

The #1 choice right now in Production work is: 3D Studio Max. The #2 choice is LightWave.

When you're talking very high end studios that can spend money like water, then you get into Maya and XSI. Maya is probably going to beat out XSI for a while now since they lowered their prices.

When dealing with the real world, especially in this economy, it's what gets the job done for the least amount of money that counts.

(That includes stability, because every time XSI crashes, it costs the studio money.)

BTW, In making Star Wars, the modellers used just about every modeller there was.

In SpiderMan, they used Rhino a whole lot.
http://rhino3d.com/spider-man/index.htm

I'd expect SoftImage to be a whole production platform out of the box...

It's not getting used that way.

Pixar does NOT use it (they have 100% proprietary software).

Industrial LIght and Magic uses EVERYTHING including Cinema.

XSI may be a great platform, but please don't come into the cinema forum and beat the drum about how much better it is than Cinema.

for a platform that's 10 times more expensive, it better be 10 times better, 10 times faster, and 10 times less prone to crash.

LucentDreams

07-26-2002, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by VSLX

If somebody make Star Wars Episode II in Cinema on PC or MAC, then SGI would probably be broke, and Avid would close the development... because it's a lot cheaper to buy 2000$ software (Cinema4D and adds) and one 2.000$ computer, instead of 150.000$ SGI and some 20.000$ SoftImage with the plugins and adds.

Or maybe I'm wrong???

Trust me you are, for one you showed how little you know about effects companies especially ILM, I can confirm that C4D was used in Starwars episode two, and Gladiator, not too sure about spiderman myself, Mummy Retursn, yep Tomb raider I don't know but wouldn't doubt it. Thing to know for next time, is ILM lets its employess use what they need to produce the best images. Simon Wicker of ILM used it in Starwars Episode two for doing his Mattes, Ever see the Scene with Yoda and Dooku (sp?) That was his Matte, so I say it was used, and you need to do some research :) When a company says it was used in any ILM productino it doesn't mean much as they are all used, LW, XSI, Maya they were all used. Anothe movie, Zephyr, or Some Bear classically animated film with 3D elements that is German so I can't rmeber how to spell it :) You also forgot how big of a role EI played in SW EP 1, ever seen the pod race???

As for the layout, your not talking about customizability, as you compared the default layouts, I have full control over C4D';s layout more than even XSI 2.0, and trust me I know I have been using XSI's demo thouroughly. I can have a full text layout with no icons and such, I can have as many pallets place icons anywhere I want, I can make as many interfaes as I want, Hell for XL 7.3 I have a modeling layout, a rigging layout, a uv editing layout, a textur painting layout, and an animation layout. I use all frequently and each is iptimised so I only have the tols I need. I can control all the menus that come up with right clicks, I can change all the menus in the menu bar. I can skin XL, I can change almost any colour, font etc.

You comments on Nurbs being the only techniques for characters, is totally wrong, remeber one, most are scanned in models in polygonal form (most) and look at Weta for lord of the rings, USed Scanned in models and then polygonal SDS. DO some research get your head out of the gutter.

Mental Ray is awesome, but Pixar Renderman has been used in every Oscar winning Technical achievment feature film (using 3D) since its inception. Don't think Mental ray is the best on the market, it still comes in Second if that.

Andd for nurbs, I'm sorry but nothing to date beats rhino, including SI3D. and for Polygonal Modling, I'm sorry But mirai which is foloowed closely by the MAx four/new max 5? as they have the closest tools to what mirai ahs and some that mirai doesn't now too, including tha bility to do whole which is rare for solid modelers to date.

As for fastest modelier, well I don't know about nurbs and such, but for polygonal modeling Nendo and Mirai will not be matched for a few more years at leas, well maybe wings 3D as their is more functionality but it is slower and the extra tols make it less functional.

Oh, and have you noticed SGI is in trouble recently, their sale have gone down a lot, WINTEL boxes are beating it left in right, no to mention what linux has done too. I mean even the BOXX systems are a better power to price deal, Notice that Dreamworks and Disney all bought HP linux machines for their studios just recently, thats cause SGI is a joke nowadays, and you forget what Maya had to do to release a little strain. close down their largest R&D department, not that they were in trouble, but in great strain a lot ow which admitidly was caused by the recent success of XSI. Sheridan College and Vancouver Filmshool are replacing all their SGI's with WINTEL machines (actually VFS also bought a bunch of Windows SGI boxes as well cause they aren't that bright. Did you note that Pixar is adding a lot of macs to their studio.

YOur concepts seem to be verylimited to the More money equals the best there is. XSI is an amzing tool and probably the best there is right now, but it is also one of the most expensive three. And the new AM in R8, I can defintely tell you will rival the non-modal system of XSI. Ability to lock just like the turingin off recycle button on XSI's. DEfintely XL is taking a new leap, they aren't there yet with R8, but R9 will be ther I'll tell you right now.

VSLX

07-26-2002, 07:16 AM

I think this is some kind of C4D fan forum...

SGI gets awards for the best workstations each year, and each year all the candidates for Academy Awards use SoftImage... what other fact do you need to see what's the best?

And just about 98% of good movies are made on that platform, starting with Blade Runner, a lot years back... going over the Terminator, Star Wars, Matrix, Jura' Park and so on...

I'm not ignorant.. I face the facts...
I see that a lot of you even don't know about it. I got friends, who work at post production, making commercials, movies, etc...

And about every serious studio has SoftImage...

The maximum capability of any 3D app is to reach the maximum reality. By just modeling it's easy possible in about any, but animating???
So the post production is the most dificult thing since it got:
modeling
texturing
lighting
animating
scene composing
etc...

And nobody ever beats SoftImage...
Maya's render engine is not even 60% of XSI's... and the Mental Ray for Maya is not nearly good as the one SoftImage got. Also XSi beats Maya in modeling speed. Here's one article for you:

http://www.digitalillusion.tv/Papers/MayatoXSI_Quickstart.htm

There people passed from Maya 4 => XSI and they say that it makes the projects about 40% faster...

neilyb

07-26-2002, 07:21 AM

Actually I think people are looking at the wrong end of the movies mentioned. Cinema is extensively used for pre production. The layouts etc. The rendering in Cinema is so fast they can run through scenes quickly before setting them up in the other "Highend" apps.
Personally I think Cinema has come a long way in two releases and t supposedly sits second in the usage charts. If Max falls, which it could due to the price wars Cinema could be top. Especially now that Cinema comes as an expandable package. Unlike LW, you buy all or nothing, Cinema will be customisable...don't like animation..don't buy it!

The future's bright, the future's Cinema! But, each to their own.

LucentDreams

07-26-2002, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by VSLX
I think this is some kind of C4D fan forum...

SGI gets awards for the best workstations each year, and each year all the candidates for Academy Awards use SoftImage... what other fact do you need to see what's the best?

And just about 98% of good movies are made on that platform, starting with Blade Runner, a lot years back... going over the Terminator, Star Wars, Matrix, Jura' Park and so on...

I'm not ignorant.. I face the facts...
I see that a lot of you even don't know about it. I got friends, who work at post production, making commercials, movies, etc...
And nobody ever beats SoftImage...
Maya's render engine is not even 60% of XSI's... and the Mental Ray for Maya is not nearly good as the one SoftImage got. Also XSi beats Maya in modeling speed. Here's one article for you:

There people passed from Maya 4 => XSI and they say that it makes the projects about 40% faster...

(8% thats a good stat, what resource did you get that from??? Oh, and Maya has the worst built in rendering engine, everyone knows that.

And as for your comment about knowing people in the Industry so what, who doesn't? I mean I go to school everyday with a techer who did the 3D layouts for the deepcanvas in Tarzan, I know Carlos Baena of Pixar, Nuranee shaw of Disney, Bob Godfrey, I met Richard Williams in person, had diner with Craig Bartlett, Chatted in forums and email a fair bit with Bay raiit back a few years, Moose Pagan who has done more productions than you can count as an animator assistant, Diretcor you name it, I drink with Bob Godfrey on wednesday night frequently and liten to storys of him working on John lennons little film Erection starring the Vocal Talent of Yoko Ono, so who doesn't know someone??? I also talk quite often with Simon Wicker who used C4D in Starwars episode two, as we both Beta test it. And yes XSI is used a lot as is Maya, what about Houdini, forgot that one, and you keep forgetting Renderman, whichc is still used more than mental ray.

LucentDreams

07-26-2002, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by neilyb
Actually I think people are looking at the wrong end of the movies mentioned. Cinema is extensively used for pre production. The layouts etc. The rendering in Cinema is so fast they can run through scenes quickly before setting them up in the other "Highend" apps.

But it is also used for final ooutputs as is EI, EIU, MAX Lightwave, even POVRAY had credits for SW EP1. in the MAtte painting department.

And don't forget the best animators don't go near XSI or any of the others do they? I mean PIXAR and PDI don't use anything but their own, and their own doesn'tgo wnywhere else except for REnderman.

neilyb

07-26-2002, 09:24 AM

Kai, make the moose look more disgruntled......and go get 'em!

Is Cinema really used for final output, WOW. Of course I see no reason why not!:applause:

kiwi

07-26-2002, 11:09 AM

Lets not forget a crap artist is not going to be able to pull off anything that does not look like crap,no matter what "soft" is used.And these people in the industry are frigging good thats why they are there,and because they are good they are able to get the most out of their apps,but if you want to take a huge step forward and cut through some years of learning find an art class or improve your drawing ,learn to paint because it will add at least 30% minimum to the quality of work you can produce :)

I am also far from convinced that someone who has used XSI to make briliiant shots could not do similar work in another app,workflow aside that is.The artist is 70% of the result if not more.

I have a friend who uses LW and he frequents another forum,anyway he tells me how often someone new comes in all hyped and gets dissapointed when they find there is no magic animation button to push,because they have the view if I have the soft I should be able to do it because its what they used on this film or that

Or another example when I posted that semi photo realistic landscape in the forum heaps of people ooohed and ahhed,until they found out I used C4D that was????.........but hey that just empowers me.But the thing is if you cant cut it at an artistic level your soft wont save you no matter what you use if you are aiming for the higher industry levels that is.

Just my opinion.

Stu.

Stu.

AdamT

07-26-2002, 12:42 PM

Heh heh...looks like I got something started! The movie titles I quoted above were taken *directly* from Maxon's page, so I seriously doubt they'd take credit for films in which Cinema wasn't used. Now I have no idea to what extent it was used or for what purpose, except for clones where Simon stated that he used Cinema in the creation of his digital mattes. I think it's pretty clear that XSI is the more capable and more production-tested package--I'm not denying that at all. Obviously it *should* be better at more than 10 times the cost.

I doubt that Cinema has been used for CA work in major movies, considering the state of its current tools. This may change with v.8, but it may not. But the new tools should at least be suitable for TV and cable work.

I believe the original point I was trying to make is that Cinema's interface can be made to look any way you want, and that is absolutely true. Hell, you could make an LW layout if you were insane!

neilyb

07-26-2002, 02:42 PM

You mean if you had 12 hands and space to fit all those "text filled" button on the screen. at least with cinema I can fill the screen with my views and put my tools etc. on another screen (lets face it, standard geforce 4Ti comes with 2 outputs and a second screen costs what, even a second hand screen to fill with menus is good enough not to mention complety customisable shortcuts.....it's all there so lets us it!?)

Cinema rocks.

Grey

07-26-2002, 05:47 PM

Kaiskai said:
And for nurbs, I'm sorry but nothing to date beats rhino, including SI3D

<----is still amazed that this is true

God I hope Cinema4D supports OpenNURBS someday :D :D

And something I'm seeing here:

"Cinema has come a long way in two releases" yes it has!

I'm still using XL6.3 and I have to tell you, in spite of the long way Cinema has come since that release, in no way do I feel "saddled" or held back by what I'm currently using. The solid design and the ease of use (and the help I get here) has me very satisfied with that old release.

VSLX

07-26-2002, 08:28 PM

I don't get what are you trying to prove?

I just have to see this http://www.softimage.com/Community/Xsi/Mag/Features/Oscars_2002/

And it's enough... please read it... here's some part...

Gladiator shocked audiences last year by sweeping the awards, due
to its astounding digital effects. The Academy’s nod to the
artistry of digital effects was noted, and appreciated, while digital
artists continue to make magic using Avid editing systems, as well as
Softimage 3D-animation software and Digidesign audio applications. This
year, effects-enhanced films using Avid, Softimage and Digidesign
snagged an impressive 42 nominations. Diverse films like Gosford Park
and Pearl Harbor may not be effects-driven, but they certainly owe
their ‘suspension of disbelief’ to the invisible digital effects that perfect
the quality of sound and realism.
...

And about prices... SoftImage 3D 4.0 costs 1495$ + Mental Ray 2.1 = 2495$
Cinema costs... 1695$ + Dynamics 495$+ Pyrocluster 295$ = 2485$
Links: http://computerarts.co.uk/reviews/review.asp?id=989&order=date
http://www.maxonshop.com/us/

LOL, and it still lacks some respectful render engine...
And I'm not going to mention the features... Nurbs, etc...

http://www.cinema4d.com/pages/products/c4d/r8/images/illustrations/xpresso_tp_hi.jpg

This looks to me like a "stolen" feature... one of the many scene controlers XSI got. I can start making screenshtos if somebody wants so...
Render three:
http://www.deskmod.com/core.mod?state=view&skin_id=1284

And about the movie production... I don't see how....
One of the best qualities of SoftImage is compatibility with composing software... such as Combustion, Flame, Inferno, and so on....
So far I know, Cinema is not even close in that...
+ animation techniques, non-linear animation... and so on...
I've seen how they were animating "The Matrix" and those famous effects with bullets... and also the fight scenes...
Those animations made an evolution...
SoftImage 3D use there...
What about "The terminator, Judgement day"... Those liquid metal effects, maden some 11 years ago, I'm still not sure if Cinema is able to produce it... and that was made in some 11 years old SoftImage 3D...

I mean.. Cinema is good an easy for begginers, but it's totally apsurd to compare it with the most highend stuff ever made...
And say that it produced one of the best effects...
I suppose that the best effects are the Academy Award nominates....

dotblend

07-26-2002, 08:48 PM

i know for sure blender can do those "terminator fx" realtime!
and i also know that cinema also kan do those.... non realtime tho...

VSLX

07-26-2002, 08:52 PM

BTW. Here's the direct link for the nominee list:

http://www.oscars.com/nominees/nominees_index.html

Look under animation, visual effects...

AdamT

07-26-2002, 08:59 PM

I'm not even sure what you're responding to now. I think I made it pretty clear that I consider XSI the more powerful app. But you seem to be saying that SI is so great based upon the featuers of XSI, and then when it comes to price you're quoting SI3D.

What am I trying to prove? You said that Cinema hasn't been used in major movies and you were clearly wrong. That's it? What are you trying to prove? One minute you're saying how great LW is, then XSI, then SI3D. I'd say that C4D, LW and SI3D are equivalent in terms of their overall capabilities, and XSI is in another league.

Concerning compatibility with 3d party software Cinema has the best integration with Adobe AE 5.5/Photoshop/Premiere of any 3d app. LW can't compare in this regard, and I doubt that SI3D can either.

BTW, when you're quoting prices how about using the *new* pricing for XL8: R8 + Pyrocluster + Thinking Particles = $1,695. Not sure what the new pricing will be on Dynamics.

Anyway, I'm out of this silly argument.

VSLX

07-26-2002, 11:42 PM

Sorry... I should write that this was the answer to Kaiskai...

It's just about those movies... I'm just trying to say Avid is the standard, and how the things go... it's gonna be for long time...

Don't get me wrong I really like Cinema, it's ideal to star with 3D in it. It has drag and drop functions, it uses low memory... but it's really far from being used to produce...

kiwi

07-27-2002, 12:04 AM

VSLX Kai "is" not saying C4D was used "solely" and only in these movies,he is saying C4D contributed in "areas" of these movies as did other apps as well.Look at Photoshop its used extensively right throughout the graphic world from woah to go,but I dont believe I have ever seen on movie credits that it was used,I might be wrong though.But the point I am trying to make is that when they say XSI etc was used they mean was used for the majority of the special effects scenes that were chosen by the people in the know as being worthy of nomination :) So if they were going to mention every app used for everything the audience would go to sleep well before they even finished app credits.So we are not saying C4D was a "big player in these movies,we are however saying it "was" used somewhere.

I hope that makes this discussion a bit clearer.

And for the record we are not a C4D fan club,we just have different ideas of what "used" amounts to thats all.

Stu.

Grey

07-27-2002, 02:31 AM

VSLX Said:

What about "The terminator, Judgement day"... Those liquid metal effects, maden some 11 years ago, I'm still not sure if Cinema is able to produce it... and that was made in some 11 years old SoftImage 3D...

POSER can do those effects now...

If you're trying to sell us on XSI, fine, give it to us at the same price as Cinema and we'll consider it.

How much did you pay for your copy of XSI, BTW?

AdamT

07-27-2002, 03:55 AM

I think you hit the nail on the head, Stu.

There was recently a discussion on the Postforum talking about a similar issue--like why Maxon doesn't post examples from its production work. They (and some of the artists) responded that the studios actually charge big bucks for the *right* to post not only artwork from the productions but even for the right to list the credit! The big boys like Discreet and Avid can pay for that kind of thing and also have more leverage to get permission.

Regarding how much VSLX paid for his copy of XSI--apparently a lot since now he can't even afford a second monitor!

Grey

07-27-2002, 04:06 AM

LOL...

So... just out of curiosity... are we acting like a C4D Fanclub?

I mean, I love C4D, but do I appear that rabid? Non of you do to me...

Funny thing is... I was just about to suggest maybe we should all do our best to contribute images (strictly for shameless self promotion, mind you) to Maxon...

kiwi

07-27-2002, 05:05 AM

Ya I remember mentioning something like this before somewhere Adam,but I think it runs deeper then that as well I think there is also an element of if C4D gets better and better it could dislodge/endanger my apps credibility/future,and I think people freak out a bit about that...and VSLX that was not a dig at you ok :)

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of incredibly talented and intelligent people in all the forums here,yet we seem to be repeatedly having the my app can do this,can yours?,or my app is better then yours because,and I have seen this so often it makes ill now.Personally I really like C4D,I have never used any other 3D app so I dont believe that entitles me to yay or nay any other.

Maybe this age old argument is just human nature I dont know,but it seems pretty stoopid to "me" and it goes on all over the net all the time :hmm: And the worst thing is that if it takes us 5 min per post to write{give or take} and we have I think 4 pages of this thats a lot of time collectively we could spent more productively then going around in a circle :)

Again just my opinion :)

Stu.

kiwi

07-27-2002, 05:08 AM

Grey ya bud there were some pics I was going to send to the Maxon gallery,but if I remember rightly there was something about the terms and conditions of use I was not that fussed about :)

Stu.

Grey

07-27-2002, 05:23 AM

I don't understand...

Terms and conditions? Did it have to do with quality? I've never looked into submitting a render (largely because I'm not much on rendering)...

Cman

07-27-2002, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by AdamT
I think you hit the nail on the head, Stu.

There was recently a discussion on the Postforum talking about a similar issue--like why Maxon doesn't post examples from its production work. They (and some of the artists) responded that the studios actually charge big bucks for the *right* to post not only artwork from the productions but even for the right to list the credit! The big boys like Discreet and Avid can pay for that kind of thing and also have more leverage to get permission.

...

yep! I never thought of it like that before, but it IS a contractual issue to get credits. Unions enforce crew credits on the distributors, AFAIK, or you'd never see KeyGrip, etc.
It all comes back to money for onscreen credit.
The right dollar amount will get your name in the credits as a Producer!

MJV

07-27-2002, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by Cman

yep! I never thought of it like that before, but it IS a contractual issue to get credits. Unions enforce crew credits on the distributors, AFAIK, or you'd never see KeyGrip, etc.
It all comes back to money for onscreen credit.
The right dollar amount will get your name in the credits as a Producer!

That is literally true since a producer is someone who raises or provides the funding.

MJV

07-27-2002, 06:57 AM

neilyb

07-27-2002, 08:38 AM

Excuse me.....but.....WHAT IS WRONG WITH CINEMAS RENDER ENGINE?????? It does everything it could surely? It's fast as well!

davemj

07-27-2002, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by VSLX

It's just about those movies... I'm just trying to say Avid is the standard, and how the things go... it's gonna be for long time...

Be careful, Avid is loosing ground these days. It was state of the art, but companies like Pinnacle systems are taking market share from Avid in various markets

The world changes and new tools come and go, nothing is standard

David

kiwi

07-27-2002, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Grey
I don't understand...

Terms and conditions? Did it have to do with quality? I've never looked into submitting a render (largely because I'm not much on rendering)...

No I probably did not put that in the best terminology bud.It was something like if you submit an image then you give Maxon the rights to use in their advertising etc etc...for free.......dont qoute me on that though because I may have it quite wrong as I have an extrodinarily crappy memory :D

Neilyb I dont know enough about the other apps render ability to answer that,but to me it seems pretty damn good :thumbsup: Now ok it does not do SSS or HDRI,but there are a lot of people who have that ability in their render engines who will probably never learn to use it properly.

I have also read that Alias Wavefront actually "give" software to some VFX companies for free in order to hoover up the credits when the movie is finished at awards ceremonies,which I suppose if you can afford to it is not that bad of an idea :)

The industry will get more cutthroat yet too.

Stu.

Grey

07-27-2002, 06:09 PM

Hey, if you create an image you expect to make NOTHING off, submit it to Maxon, they use it in their advertizing... (I'd think that would give clout, no?)

kiwi

07-27-2002, 11:33 PM

Ya agreed,maybe I was tired when I read it or something,it wasnt because of the free aspect.And ya it is self promotion you are right,and I suppose if its liked enough it could even be on the cd with the images :)

Stu.

kiwi

07-27-2002, 11:38 PM

Yep must have been tired just went and read it again,I thought I read "we retain all rights over your image",but it wasnt it was "You",apologies for that oversight Maxon :hmm:

Stu.

meloncully

07-28-2002, 05:32 AM

i dont understand people these days.

I dont see what the big frickin deal is.

there is nothing wrong with cinema. Just because it cost a hellova lot cheaper than xsi doesnt mean it sucsk.

I think cinema is a fine app, i just dont know how to use it.

heh, Rhino rocks, i must say.

man o man.

hehehe.

you all know why mr vslx or whatever his name was stopped responding right?

he didnt buy xsi. He downloaded it. hahahaha.

[edit]i just realised something, xsi sucks, it doesnt come with its OWN renderer, looks like it sucks, because it has to use somebody else's to get the job done. O wait, looks like that mental ray is just gonna sit there because the house that bought xsi is using renderman, aaaa too bad for mental ray.

neilyb

07-28-2002, 11:05 AM

Well, everytime I try submitting an image to Maxon I get an error and nothing works......as for getting paid....publicity is worth it, even without any cash. After one of my images was in 3D world Exhibition a guy called me in Germany and wants to use it on the cover (possibly) of a fly fishing mag.....still, no cash for it..but next time...?:wip:

kiwi

07-28-2002, 11:24 AM

A fly fishing mag...can you show us the pic bud? :) So am I right in saying this guy has a fly fishing magazine which he sells and makes money from and he cant advance you anything for your trouble?...is it a mag with a small readership neilyb?

Ya I have no problem with giving Maxon an image for publicity purposes etc if they choose to use in that way,I thought I had to give away all rights as well......but doh!!! I got it all wong :hmm:

If you are getting errors have you mailed Maxon to tell them about it.

Stu.

AdamT

07-28-2002, 11:41 AM

I was recently chastized for suggesting that Maxon have a contest for its next advertisement/promotional materials--winner to have his or her image featured. It was argued, correctly I think, that Maxon can afford to pay for this sort of thing, and you hurt the graphics community when you give away artwork that *someone* should rightfully be getting paid to do. In other words, the more often we give away our work the less paying work there will be available.

Also, when you give away your work or charge a minimal fee, don't expect to ever get a decent fee from that client for future work. Clients will largely base their opinion of your work's value on the value that *you* assign it.

Grey

07-28-2002, 06:31 PM

What if Maxon also paid, as a prise, fair market rates?

AdamT

07-28-2002, 07:49 PM

Then I reckon that'd be okay, but I'm not sure the guy who called me out on it would agree.

Grey

07-28-2002, 08:18 PM

or better yet: a free upgrade to the next edition of their software :D

They could have a scene making contest that would kick ass if they did that...

kiwi

07-28-2002, 11:26 PM

Ya that would be cool,but thing is they dont have to pay because people send pics :)

What would be ideal would be if you could submit an image and manage to sell the image to a client etc.But I assume that a client is not really going to like that idea.But then again self promotion should lead to "paying" jobs,so then its sort of up to the user as to where they draw that line in the sand between how often create free works and how often they create paying works.

Ya Adam I think it comes down to respect,not respect from the client but whether you respect your work is good enough,because if you show respect for your work it will come across to the client as well.A measuring stick I use in life is this,if you are going to do something for someone and it requires "you" going out of your way,then ask yourself would this person do the same for me?,is there is a payoff {not just monetary},like is there a possibility later that if this person is in a postion where they are able to reciprocate will they?.If the answer is no then screw them,no one deserves to be walked on,and you have the choice whether you let that happen or not.But self promotion say Maxon and advertising is a bit different because your work is being shown to all Maxon fans and would be users,and what Maxon are really saying by using your work is look at the quality of this persons image,you can maybe create this as well using C4D etc,doesnt it look great,so that is respect.But yes maybe a free upgrade for a contest would not be unreasonable :)

Stu.

neilyb

07-29-2002, 07:23 AM

Here is the pic Kiwi. Of course I would prefer to be paid for such a thing, but, at such an early stage in my 3D career (ie. I play about with Cinema cos I like it) payment is not such a big thing. Having my work seen by lots of people (the mag is a one man creation and is read by fly fisherman.....possibly not a large readership!) is a bit of an ego boost and looks good on the portfolio.
Here is the pic. Which I must say simply started as a test for the HairDepartment plug.....

kiwi

07-29-2002, 10:42 AM

I like it :thumbsup:

If youre happy with that agreement {the mag} then cool as thats all that matters in the end.I can be a bit assertive I suppose when it comes to payment or self promotion,reason being a few years ago I had about $700 worth of paintings excluding frames which would have been about another 250 or so,anyway the place I was exhibiting these paintings had quite a variation in art with many artists work hanging on the walls etc.The owners of the gallery got in to financial trouble sold everyones work mine included and did a runner with all the money.If it was paintings I was not fussed on I would not be as annoyed,but there was a picture of the Endeavour {sailing ship} that I had meticulously air brushed and hand detailed with a paint brush and I decided I wanted to hang onto this painting after all,but then it was gone,and to top it all off now I can no longer paint like that,so thats why I get a bit cranky on this subject :)

Stu.