Advice on freelance rates.

[frogjackson]

as the title says - no-one replied to you on this post but maybe you found the answer elsewhere. I run a very small company doing CGI - doens't matter who we pitch to its always too much - whatever happened to a fair days wage for a fair days work ?

[InTheCity]

I would suggest when you can that you charge hourly.

Clients can get awfully picky, because at the end of the day you're usually working on 'their idea' and it can sometimes get complicated when you're trying to fine tune your vision to become their vision.

As with everything charged by the hour, the more you end up working, the money you make.

If you're forced to work for a flat rate, if you're in a position too I would demand a 50% deposit.

[Leebre]

Old thread...but in the time since I asked the question I've learned that charging hourly is DEFINITELY the way to go. Anytime I've charged a flat rate I've invariably worked more than what I estimated. Plus, by charging hourly it forces me to log my tasks and times more thoroughly which makes the client happier. Plus...it's easier to protect yourself from a client introducing scope creep into the project.

[mikeh64]

I find that clients need to get somewhat of a "price" up front - so I offer them a "ballpark" estimate, but let them know it is based on hours times my rate, and I let them know that it includes 2 revision cycles.

They understand from the beginning that if the CEO chimes in with far-reaching changes late in the game that it will cost them. I also make sure they understand where they are at in the process...

"Here is the final version number one"

"Have you given me all of your final version number two changes so I can start?"

"Here is the final version number two - let me know when you are ready with final, version three changes (version three is the last revision included with the estimate)."

Clients like to forget that you are trying to make a profit as well - you need to be clear, upfront, and tough about it or they will abuse you.

See below for funny client letter: (as posted sometime ago by Steve Bell - Thanks Joel D for remembering)



Dear Mr 3D Guy,

I am announcing that we will be proceeding with your companies’ services. After your initial submission we tried with vain to do it ourselves and set up opposition to you and found that we will need to engage you after all. We also shopped your submission around to every other company in town and although we tried our hardest we couldn’t find a better price. So all that negotiating in price wasn’t really necessary, it was just to make me feel good and show my boss that I am worth what he pays me.

So now that we are proceeding I will pretend to be your best friend, as my boss has instructed that I give you all the assistance you need. There are some things you should be aware of:

All of that negotiating in price and removal of certain services was never relayed to my boss in it’s entirety. Yes, he heard how I got a better deal from you through my amazing negotiating skills but I didn’t get around to telling him that you were now only doing stage 1 of the project. When you submit your proofs he is going to hit the roof and I will tell him that you must have left this out. Of course, you will hear a different story and I will tell you that you have to complete stage 2 as well and we will work out a deal later to cover your costs. This deal, of course, will never happen and I will ensure you never get anymore work from us for fear that you may remind me of this.

I will send you various details of the brief in my own time. Much of this will be outdated and you will find it full of mistakes. If you bring up any of these mistakes I will immediately tell the entire office that you are causing trouble, so if you know what’s good for you then you will keep your mouth shut and suffer in silence.

I will approve the proofs that you send me in my own time. This could be a few weeks, but I will still want the finished work on time. Also, I will not really look at the proofs and will only issue my approval because you keep ringing me. Because of this I will change everything once you have finished the project. As with the previous paragraph, you will have to do this at your cost and we will work it out later.

Any quote you give us for printing or other consultants will be queried many times over in order to give me enough time to get one of my friends to quote on the job. His work is lousy and he is always late, but he gives me a 20% cut on anything I send him. By the way, you are going to be responsible for his poor quality and overdue deadlines – and don’t bother sending your quotes directly to my boss as his secretary gets a 5% cut on the deal so he will never see it.

Once you have done this first job I will be showing all your work and everything I have learnt to another friend of mine. He also gives me 20% in the hand and I am sure I can teach him how to do what your company does. I am going to tell my boss that he has better prices with better quality work. I will also tell my boss that you doubled your price after the last job and that yo don’t want to deal with us anymore. You could change all of this but I would need a 25% cut of whatever your fee is.

You can send your invoice directly to me. I will deliberately lose it at least three times, therefore stretching your terms into 120 days. This is just another way for me to show my boss how valuable I am. Your first invoice will never arrive and your second one will be lost in the accounts system. Your third invoice will be queried and will probably be lost again after that. Don’t take it personally; I just like making people squirm.

Yours insincerely,

Your new nightmare

[flyingP]

LMAO :applause:

[JamesMK]

Oh, now I'm really looking forward to find some freelance business opportunities :D

Unfortunately, that stuff is close to the truth....

[RorrKonn]

mikeh64,heck of a letter.

For modeling organic characters like humans,dragons.
Think I would charge $1000 just to model it.if they wanted it mapped and textured another $1000 and if they wanted it rigged another $1000.
Total $3000.

They would half to pay me 50% upfront for me to even start.
Provide me drawing of what they wanted.
If they changed it at all we start all over, another $3000.
Pay me the reset before I delivered them the mesh.
So until I have $3000 in my hands they don't have a character.

RorrKonn
rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com (rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com)
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)

[rendermania]

Lesson numero uno for first-time freelancers: beware of clients who ask for stuff that turns out to be a nightmare to render. Some clients think 3D is like videotaping something. You stick a 3d model in one end, and a nice animation comes out the other. You frequently don't realize how bad this can get when you work on your own stuff, because you tend to take instinctive shortcuts (e.g. if something renders too slow, you simplify it or don't put it in in the first place). Not so with client work.

Seriously, if you're offered one of those two weeks or three weeks and you're done jobs, consider very carefully not what you're being asked to model and animate (that too of course), but what you'll wind up rendering at the end. It always takes longer than you think. Clients always want lots of whatever is the slowest thing you could possible stick in a scene. If you hear the words 'trees' or 'grass' or 'I want some more', seriously consider running away, unless you're doing stills. :bounce:

[jscott]

mikeh64 has a pretty good strategy. The problem with working hourly for the client where the client knows your hourly rate is that it can reduce your income as your skill level increases. Also if you use assets (materials, meshes, etc) that you created on your own time or at a loss on a previous project you can't recover this time. Unless of course you fudge your hours.

Remember you are creating a product to be sold at fair market rates. If you work faster or more efficient should you make less money. Hell no! If you can do 10 hours worth of work in 5 hours you should get paid the same.

Straight hourly I feel is best for a longterm assignment or if you make an agreement with someone locally that you will always be available to help them out at $xx per hour.

I like mikeh64's plan pretty well. Back in the day when web design was a good business we would charge a lump sum for the project with a defined scope and completion date. The contract stated that after the scope was met further changes would be made at $xx hourly rate. This gave us some chance to get ahead (profit), but still make sure we make a fair rate for the changes.

Don't forget about profit. Your rate should consider all your expenses including your rate. Then add profit. Your hourly rate is not profit.

Upfront money is very important especially if you don't have good working history with a client. I would say for projects less that $5k I would try to get half up front. For projects dealing with more money you could try to work out a milestone system. For example a $12K project. Maybe you get $3k to start and $3k for meeting 3 milestones.

-jscott

[flyingP]

but what you'll wind up rendering at the end. It always takes longer than you think. Clients always want lots of whatever is the slowest thing you could possible stick in a scene. If you hear the words 'trees' or 'grass' or 'I want some more', seriously consider running away, unless you're doing stills. :bounce:

good point!

[JoelOtron]

That letter was posted a few years ago on PF by a guy in Australia who does Arch visualization. Steve Bell I think. Very funny.

If you can swing it-- do hourly, but most likely your gonna be working for a client who has a set budget to work with. I rarely get to find clients who are OK working hourly (just like you wouldnt want to pay the contractor hourly to re model your kitchen, for instance).

Also think about if this is a one shot deal or if you are forming an ongoing working relationship with a client. If your hourly rate tends to go beyond what he wants to spend, it wont work out for long term. That could be a bad thing but it also could be a good thing....

[raycerx]

The Graphic Artists Guild publishes a very comprehensive book on rates and such for ALL types of illustration and if I'm not mistaken animation. I HIGHLY recommend getting it. I dont have the book in front of me (its at home). But I found lots of great info in there. It can help place your price point along side others in your particular field.
I typically charge lump sum,( with all the rigor of what mikeh64 has mentioned). I set the price based on what I want to make an hour or what I feel I am worth per hour, then multiply accordingly to reach a total. Rush charges tend to multiply a number anywhere from 1.2 to 2.
The biggest question you need to ask yourself is how long does it take you to make a 'wigget'. From there you can set up some sort of price structure.

[marshalartist]

My advice is tread carefully as you begin, make sure you are more than capable of doing the service you are advertising. You rarely get second chances in this business. When you are confident in your abilities never be afraid to charge a premium for what you do and never do anything for nothing. Favours are fine so long as they get returned. Never do amends for free, if you get it wrong apologise and correct it as fast as posible and bend over backwards to please them, if they change the brief then change the price and keep them informed. I often do a quick turn around job for a client for say £500, I work over the phone and by e-mail, they get the final render, and someone has a different opinion in their office, this gets repeated over 24 times sometimes different lighting, shapes and environments and the price is suddenly £2500. They know what it is costing them as they go along and they keep spending until they are sure that they have got a pitch winning design. If they keep winning pitches with your work they don't bat an eyelid at the price, if they keep losing then you get a back lash on price.
If you have no idea what to charge when you get a job, pitch to them as an introductory offer and the next time you will have a better idea of what to charge. Always think of the big picture if you rely on freelance work as your only income, think how many days you will work in a week on average and what the minimum is you need to survive and then price accordingly. I hpe this helps and good luck,

Peter

[raycerx]

and another thing... (and this goes along with not underselling yourself)
a good friend of mine once said...
'you can always negotiate down, its much tougher to negotiate up".
So start with your premium price as marshalartist said...

[wuensch]

A very good thread this is, and a very funny fake letter ;-)

My 5c:
(My rates would not help you, as every country has a different "overhead"):
1.
Dont dump!
Nothing good comes out of dumping. This sounds like BlaBla to a lot of business beginners, but it is really an experience that has proven to be right over now nearly (sigh--but I still love my profession) 20 years of freelance work (its 18 to be correct).
Dump-customers are practically always more stress than normal customers-they feel you are at their mercy ;-)-plus you get less money.
Charge the money you will really need & add at leat 20 %, because you will almost always find you have underestimated the difference between working for yourself & working for clients.
Be self-confident.
You trained long & hard for this (I hope).
2.
make sure your client knows what he gets.
(its said before in the thread, but it really is important).
Let them know from start how many steps he has to approve, how many correctional steps are included, what copyright is included (and what is not).
If you are sloppy with this, it will cause trouble.
Plus it is professional to be clear about stuff like that.

3. see you get you money--- but thats another story ;-)

[leigh]

mikeh64,heck of a letter.

For modeling organic characters like humans,dragons.
Think I would charge $1000 just to model it.if they wanted it mapped and textured another $1000 and if they wanted it rigged another $1000.
Total $3000.

They would half to pay me 50% upfront for me to even start.
Provide me drawing of what they wanted.
If they changed it at all we start all over, another $3000.
Pay me the reset before I delivered them the mesh.
So until I have $3000 in my hands they don't have a character.


Well good luck getting clients with that strategy. Personally I don't think it's a very good work ethic at all. Charging them all over again simply because of a small change? That's not realistic and I doubt anyone would give you any work based on such a system.

As for rates... personally I find that daily rates work well for film/television work. Charging a full standard flat rate can get really tricky if there are any hitches or if you encounter any issues along the way. Clocking up a daily amount just makes more sense in most cases.

Just my 2c.

[alanmac]

mikeh64,heck of a letter.

For modeling organic characters like humans,dragons.
Think I would charge $1000 just to model it.if they wanted it mapped and textured another $1000 and if they wanted it rigged another $1000.
Total $3000.

They would half to pay me 50% upfront for me to even start.
Provide me drawing of what they wanted.
If they changed it at all we start all over, another $3000.
Pay me the reset before I delivered them the mesh.
So until I have $3000 in my hands they don't have a character.

RorrKonn
rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com (rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com)
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)

From the wording of your letter "think I would " "would have to pay me" etc. I'm getting the impression this is an opinion rather than a fact. It sounds to me as if you are not actually working freelance at all, certainly not full time. Am I right?

Agree with much of what Liegh said.If you are getting that sort of money and with that sort of terms and conditions good luck to you but I know if I treated my regular clients like that I'd not have them for long.

Although my main work is different in nature I charge either a daily or project rate but I do have a good idea what time I'll spend on stuff. Love the fake letter - pity a lot of it is so near the reality.

There is a site I saw a while back devoted to freelancing but it's on my old busted machine. If i can fire it up I'll post the link.

Good luck

Alan

[rendermania]

There's one word of advice nobody's mentioned yet. This field is getting more crowded by the day, barriers to entry are falling as the software gets cheaper and the training DVDs get more plentiful, etc, so try to make your work distinct. There's a lot of amorphous CG stuff out there that looks like it could have been done by pretty much anyone above a certain skill level, and a lot of people out there who'll just imitate the latest cool look, so all of a sudden everyone starts to use the same damn car-paint shader and skydome light to get that Brazil car render look, etc. Unless you're making bland stuff by default because its required (detergent/toothpaste/kittylitter ads come to mind), put some personal style or edge into it that makes it stand out/become more memorable. Also don't waste too much time on CG gallery sites where people drool over each other's stills, and the robots and fantasy chicks all start to look the same after a while. Develop your own ideas. There's a lot of stuff that has yet to be done with CG.

[imashination]

I never charge per hour, it makes you feel guilty when you so much as get a drink. I charge per day and usually work out how many days it will take in advance. ie. 4 months work, £200 per day.

Get a firm clear view of the whole task and all details you need. When your scene turns from "model 3 hospital rooms in 1 month" into "model 3 hospital rooms populated with people all doing detailed surgery in 1 month" at the last week, then it all turns to shit.

I charge 100% up front and release the files on short term work (under a week)

I take payment in advance per week for mid term work (under a month) and if its an ongoing project with someone I trust or an agency then Im happy to send an invoice at the end of each month with 31 days to pay it.

The clients to be most weary of are those who are indecisive, who wont give a clear idea of what they want. I have turned down work from these before.

[RogueLion]

I want to get into freelance but I don't know where to start. How do I advertise my self or my work? Do Cinema 4D users get more freelance jobs? I always hear about freelance in the Cinema 4D section. Do you work other jobs or just do 3d and other types of art?

[danb]

I noticed people mentioning "Invoices" a few times. How can a freelance artist have an invoice. Could someone elaborate more as to why this is important.

[leigh]

An invoice is simply the document that you give to your client when you want payment for the job. Typically it states your name, address, your clients name and address, the services rendered, hours worked, rate and total, plus it should have the days date on which it was issued printed on it. In this country (and it probably works the same in other countries), the client legally has up to 30 days to pay from the date of issuance.

They're important to have because:

- it's the professional way to bill a client
- it's proof that you have billed the client
- most clients (eg studios) actually require them for accounting purposes (so that their book keepers know where that $10,000 went to!)

You should also keep copies of your invoices for tax purposes, because even freelancers are required to pay tax!

[AdamT]

even freelancers are required to pay tax!What?!!

Well yeah, I guess so. :)

[leigh]

Hehe when you keep putting irregular large sums of foreign currency into your bank account... well, someones going to get suspicious sooner or later. Rather do the right thing than have to explain yourself out of a nasty tax investigation :p

Admittedly, the chances of being investigated when you're just some random person are extremely slim, but at least you know you're doing things the right way. Well, that's how I view it :)

[danb]

An invoice is simply the document that you give to your client when you want payment for the job. Typically it states your name, address, your clients name and address, the services rendered, hours worked, rate and total, plus it should have the days date on which it was issued printed on it. In this country (and it probably works the same in other countries), the client legally has up to 30 days to pay from the date of issuance.

They're important to have because:

- it's the professional way to bill a client
- it's proof that you have billed the client
- most clients (eg studios) actually require them for accounting purposes (so that their book keepers know where that $10,000 went to!)

You should also keep copies of your invoices for tax purposes, because even freelancers are required to pay tax!

Thanks Leigh that helps a lot. Haven't seen you on this forum in a bit. Good to see you again.

Does anyone have any links to resources for learning freelance business practices? I remember talking to a few people here on the board before about it but i don't think i still have the material saved.

[AdamT]

Hehe when you keep putting irregular large sums of foreign currency into your bank account... well, someones going to get suspicious sooner or later. Rather do the right thing than have to explain yourself out of a nasty tax investigation :pYeah, I was just funnin'. I'm in the fairly bizarre position of being a freelance 3D artist *and* attorney--so in addition to the normal bad consequences of tax evasion I could lose my law license.

[frisketus]

Yeah, I was just funnin'. I'm in the fairly bizarre position of being a freelance 3D artist *and* attorney--so in addition to the normal bad consequences of tax evasion I could lose my law license.I second that. (Same occupation and preoccupation)

danb - I'd suggest the use of time slips to keep track of a job's progress (even a flat price one). A typical TS has the date, client, project, time hh/mm, comments and cash received, expenses, etc. Not only a back-up for invoices, but neat if you have to resort to collection procedures. e-mail me and I'll send you what I use.

Frisketus

[neilyb]

I am not a freelancer, but this has crossed my mind more than once, especially here in Munich where jobs are scarce (trouble is, so is work!). Only thing I can add is: Don't under charge to get the work, because someone else will have to undercut you and then someone else will do the same and then you have to do the same and in not time the whole CG business is cheap. Of course to get work you have to either charge a little less or do a better job!

Also remember, this goes also for traditional Graphic Designers (in many cases) that clients expect you to press a button and their model appears, then press "A" and the whole thing is animated then press "R" and the whole thing is rendered, an hours job.......well maybe a month! So you have to map out your time and make sure they are understanding the timings.


A question for Oli W. How much work are you getting at the moment? Is the freelance situation as bad as the permanent job market (I am based in Munich and struggling to find one Grafik job worth applying for, let alone finding a job!)?

[MJV]

I was once to be audited by New York State but after a half hour of asking for various records that I produced with ease, the guy became agitated and finally asked me if had any undeclared employees, and when I told him that I didn't he said "well who is this then?" pointing triumphantly at the asian girl typing away at the Avid, who had come in after we started, at which I answered, "that's my wife" and introduced them. In very short order thereafter he scooped up his papers, mumbled something about having wasted his time with me, and promptly and unceremoniously left. That day I was glad I keep good records. :)

[wuensch]

I want to get into freelance but I don't know where to start. How do I advertise my self or my work? Do Cinema 4D users get more freelance jobs? I always hear about freelance in the Cinema 4D section. Do you work other jobs or just do 3d and other types of art?
I think its the other way around (if I take myself as example):
lots of freelance artists (storyboarders/illustrators/2D-animators/concept artists/matte painters) chose Cinema as their weapon when they wanted to add a 3D app to their toolset, because its laid out well for a one-man-show.
I dont think you get more freelance-work because of it (Maya or Max are more popular in larger studios).

Admittedly, the chances of being investigated when you're just some random person are extremely slim, but at least you know you're doing things the right way. Well, that's how I view it :)
---grmbll--- I have been among the lucky ones then last year--- I would rather have liked to win the lottery--


Olli

[wuensch]

A question for Oli W. How much work are you getting at the moment? Is the freelance situation as bad as the permanent job market (I am based in Munich and struggling to find one Grafik job worth applying for, let alone finding a job!)?
I dont rely too heavily on 3D. 80 % of my paid work is Layout/Storyboard/concept art illustration.
Job situation right now is fine, actually I have said "Sorry, No time" a couple of times this month. Seems the industry is picking up speed again (when Layout situation is good, presumably a couple of months later the productions will start,so hopefully that means more work for those closer to the finished work)
CG situation seems to be so-so.
A friend of mine who runs a small but well equipped studio is up to the neck in work, another firend who also has a CG studio is struggling not to go bankrupt--

Freelancing has never been a safe business, 1999-2001 were exceptionally good years that could make one think so, and then the bubble burst--

Olli

[flyingP]

mikeh64,heck of a letter.

For modeling organic characters like humans,dragons.
Think I would charge $1000 just to model it.if they wanted it mapped and textured another $1000 and if they wanted it rigged another $1000.
Total $3000.

They would half to pay me 50% upfront for me to even start.
Provide me drawing of what they wanted.
If they changed it at all we start all over, another $3000.
Pay me the reset before I delivered them the mesh.
So until I have $3000 in my hands they don't have a character.

RorrKonn
rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com (rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com)
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)


I wish you a lot of luck with that one.



Don't know if anyone else has brought it up yet but it is important to make friends, a lot of the jobs you'll get you'll get because somebody recommended you, just don't let them down, if somebody has recommended you their putting their good word on the line too so make sure your standard of work repays that trust, it takes years to build up a good reputation, much less for a bad one

[imashination]

I want to get into freelance but I don't know where to start. How do I advertise my self or my work? Do Cinema 4D users get more freelance jobs? I always hear about freelance in the Cinema 4D section. Do you work other jobs or just do 3d and other types of art?

Thats a bitch of a question, the answer is simple though. Find a job which puts you in contact with lots of useful to know people and show them what you can do for a couple of years. Jumping straight into freelance is almost unheard of. You have to know who to ask for jobs and you have to have some people that will think of calling you when they need something. This is why people work as the tea boy in studios, just to get around useful people. Personally I took the shortcut and worked for a 3d software company doing roadshows. Plenty of contacts that way ;-)

c4d is a good choice for freelancers because its perhaps the easiest to learn every step of the process you need. A freelancer generally needs to be a modeler, texture artist, animator and technically competent to render and compress the final product. Having to deal with poor third party render connections and crashing programs *coughmaxcough* when theres a few hours to the deadline is not a good idea. When you're working and your 3d program crashes 5 minutes before the deadline, you look at your boss and tell him the hardware/software he bought is crapand its not your fault. When the same happens as a freelancer, your clients look at you and say you're crap. You've gotta be able to rely on your machine to work when it need to.


Regarding invoices:

An invoice is a bit of paper you give them which tells the company you worked for, how much they should pay you and how to pay it. eg I work for Wibble inc. then send them an invoice for the last 2 weeks I worked saying who I am, my details, how much I charge, how much they owe me and which account to pay to. Simple as that. It leaves a paper trail in case anything goes wrong or the tax man comes to get you.

[marshalartist]

If you are starting out you should be very flexible in what you offer, say you can do everything, graphics, desk top publishing, CAD, video editing what ever you never know where it may lead. Once you have a foot in the door with compaies & agencies you stand more of a chance at getting regular work. Join as many agencies as posible they will look for work for you and get you a reasonable amount of money. You will get to meet people and form relationships that will last a long time, if you are good at 3D your capabilities will soon be noticed by the people you work for.
I'm sure many of the people on this forum did not start out just doing 3D, myself included. I always assumed I would hate working with computers when I was younger, little did I know it would turn into an obsession. My experience is a little back to front I trained as a technical illustrator from 18 to 21 years old then travelled for two years then went to unvirsity to study Industrial Design. I soon realised that the course in it self led nowhere and what was important were the contacts you make in the outside world. In my second year I found myself a placement, which was paid. It was with a company that did both industrial design and graphic design, at this point I had done little more than type on a computer. This is where I got my first break they asked me to do 63 line illustrations in adobe illustrator of crockery in three days. I charged £10 per item and three days later I had £630. I worked night and day learning as I went along. When I left colledge the following year I went straight into freelance and because of the contacts I have made, work has always came to me without much effort on my part.
When you are starting out go and work in house with companies you will get yourself known more. When you are more established work from home or get an office, then you are not restricted to working for just one client at a time. This is when your earning take a giant leap forwards, if you are charging a daily rate and you are very effecient at what you do you can work for as many as four clients in a day. There will are always be days where you have no work at all, these are the stressful days,

Peter

[RorrKonn]

I'm just a hobbyist that don't look for work.but I am desent at modeling.
Still worken on the mapping and texturing part.
Got in to 3D to make Video's like Shirk, LOL, didn't have a clue what it actually took.
the plain now is
get Chrome "the character in my icon".all finished sell him at sites like http://www.renderosity.com/ (http://www.renderosity.com/). and all for around $40.

for example Chrome
modeled, mapped,texture, rigged him.
then they wanted to change the mesh.
I would half to remap,texture him all over again.
wasted my time on the first map,texture and going to do it all again.
not doing it for free.

have no idea what the going rate for humans our but I do no only a few 3D Artist can make a complete human.99% of the human at turbo I wouldn't waist my time downloading them.

RorrKonn
rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com (rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com)
http://www.Atomic-3D.com (http://www.Atomic-3D.com)

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