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View Full Version : MSNBC: Recruit More Women Developers, Attract Women Gamers?


RobertoOrtiz
06-21-2004, 03:30 PM
Quote:
"Last month's E3 did little to dissuade the stereotype that the only women working in video gaming do so in camouflage bikinis.

Touring the show floor with several female students, Jason Chu, chief operating officer with the DigiPen Institute of Technology, got a taste of the backlash to the industry's testosterone-laden sensibilities.
"We were looking at these posters of women in outfits," Chu recalled. "And one turned to me and said, 'This is why women aren’t in games.'"

Blame gaming's nerdy male history or even society's expectations on what men and women can do for a living, but there's no denying that the people who create games are overwhelmingly male.

The times, they are (finally) a changing, however. Already well-represented in marketing and public relations, women are now moving into the creative areas of coding, design, art and production.

Advocates say it's about time. The industry needs not just gender diversity, but a diversity of ideas they hope will lead to new types of games and, ultimately, new players. The challenge is finding the talent.

"
>>Link<< (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5113554/)

-R

PhilWesson
06-21-2004, 03:51 PM
Check out http://www.womengamers.com. It's a really informative site with most of the articles written by women and taking a woman's perspective on many popular games out there.

Synkronizer
06-21-2004, 11:35 PM
Doesn't this apply to every type of game?

The whole concept of women playing any game seems weird to me.....correct me if I'm wrong.
Games seems in nature to be a man's thing.
Women play games too, but other ones. Psychological games. With real people!

But that's just my opinion

PhilWesson
06-22-2004, 02:34 PM
Doesn't this apply to every type of game?

The whole concept of women playing any game seems weird to me.....correct me if I'm wrong.
Games seems in nature to be a man's thing.
Women play games too, but other ones. Psychological games. With real people!

But that's just my opinion
jumpin' jesus on a hot-plate, tell me you're joking.
I know women that game more than men, and not just psychologically.
Most of the girls i know play a good deal of games like starcraft, splinter cell, lotsa FF and others.
Wouldn't be fair to say that gaming is just a boy's club.

ThePrintMaster
06-22-2004, 08:55 PM
jumpin' jesus on a hot-plate, tell me you're joking.
I know women that game more than men, and not just psychologically.
Most of the girls i know play a good deal of games like starcraft, splinter cell, lotsa FF and others.
Wouldn't be fair to say that gaming is just a boy's club.

My experience in the world of women and gaming says this.

(this may come off as a flame but i assure you...it isnt)

Games of that caliber that are played by girls are played by dork girls.

Believe it or not, but i know a ton of girls who are what most people perceive to be as hot. None of them play video games nor would be caught dead playing them outside of the occasional mario on SNES.

You are forgetting that in order for a girl to do the same things on a technological basis as a guy, her geek factor has to be sky high. And it seems the dual X chromosomes have a resistence to geek factor. Even in the hoggish and dorkish chicks i know, the extent of their games are online games on aol.

But thast just my experience.

Oh! I know one girl who plays her brothers copy of kingdom hearts but shes a very overwieight lesbian girl with a gimped arm. What do the girls that you know play those games look like? Do you have pictures?

PhilWesson
06-22-2004, 09:39 PM
yeah, i do as a matter of fact, PM me and i'll show ya

Synkronizer
06-22-2004, 10:15 PM
My experience in the world of women and gaming says this.

Oh! I know one girl who plays her brothers copy of kingdom hearts but shes a very overwieight lesbian girl with a gimped arm. What do the girls that you know play those games look like? Do you have pictures?


:hmm: OK, this isn't quite what I meant, but I stay by my opinion.


David225: I don't say gaming is a boys club because we want it to be. It just seems to turn out that way....

I know a girl that plays alot of games too. She isn't a big fat ugly lesbian with a disability, in fact she's quite pretty! But then again, she also rides a motorcycle.

PhantomDesign
06-23-2004, 07:41 AM
Consumers don't know who makes the games, so adding unskilled workers to the already overcrowded market won't help. The stereotype that needs to be changed is that gaming is a geeky thing.

gnarlycranium
06-23-2004, 08:09 AM
My experience in the world of women and gaming says this.

(this may come off as a flame but i assure you...it isnt)

Games of that caliber that are played by girls are played by dork girls.

If you're going to start up about 'geek factor'... do recall that the guys who play games a lot have plenty of their own dork genes. And since you're here... you obviously must be one of them. Therefore your 'experience' is seriously suspect-- a theory further supported by all this chauvanistic BS you're spouting. 'Hotness' and geek factor are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Hell, according to most folks around here, geekness seems to actually contribute to a woman's appeal.

Me, I've been gaming as long as I can remember, and I'm definitely not a gimpy lesbian-- but no, I'm not sending you my picture. And I hope one day a gimpy lesbian frags you mercilessly.


As for why, in general, girls don't tend to like games much-- I tend to agree with the ones quoted from that article. The big boob big gun chicks get old fast. Very, very old. And that probably has much more to do with it than any 'geek factor'.

ThePrintMaster
06-23-2004, 12:02 PM
were all geeks. I have no problem admitting it. If you do, you're in denial.
There are stereotypes for a reason. The reason is, theyre mostly true. Sure we will come along and find a non dork occasionally but for the most part, were all dorks, geeks, and nerds. Most stereotypes follow this trend.

There is no sense in denying that. If you are on CGTalk, and playing games......the odds are extremely high that you are a dork. The question is, how much of that is conveyed to society? and to chicks that matter?

But I guess to prove that theory you should just run out to your local bar and find the first attractive girl you can find, buy her a drink, then ask her to come back to your place to play halo. Try that, then come back and tell me how it goes.

baoling
06-23-2004, 03:39 PM
I'm 22 yrs old married female from Singapore. I Want to be a work at home mummy. Does anyone has the stories about successful work at home woman in 3d area? Or it doesn't matter female or male, just any stories that work at home in 3d industry.

baaah888
06-23-2004, 03:50 PM
were all geeks. I have no problem admitting it. If you do, you're in denial.
There are stereotypes for a reason. The reason is, theyre mostly true. Sure we will come along and find a non dork occasionally but for the most part, were all dorks, geeks, and nerds. Most stereotypes follow this trend.

There is no sense in denying that. If you are on CGTalk, and playing games......the odds are extremely high that you are a dork. The question is, how much of that is conveyed to society? and to chicks that matter?

But I guess to prove that theory you should just run out to your local bar and find the first attractive girl you can find, buy her a drink, then ask her to come back to your place to play halo. Try that, then come back and tell me how it goes.
LOL, Well i wouldnt call myself a dork, but i do have the inherent history of thinking wargames were cool and loving computergames whilst others were into playing tag.

I may just try that last paragraph although, the way i'd say halo might sound a bit perverted, "so baby you wanna come back to to mine and play some halo" "It's all played inside a giant ring" .....I'll stop now, and get my coat before im slapped.

baaah888
06-23-2004, 03:55 PM
I was going to tag this on the end of the last post, but that was comedy this is more serious,

I think more woen in the industry will be a great thing long term, But I can't see it changing quickly, and i still think booth babes are going to be the way to advertise at the next 10 E3's since it sex sells and too a mainly male demograph of consumers it'll take a big movemennt inside and out of the industry to make it less chauvernistic and male orientated.

I think theres absolutly no reason women can't do just as well in the industry, but i think the main market will always be male, so the type of games and stuff will only shift a tiny bit towards female orientated games.

But that may all change in the future, you never know. Its going to be an interesting ride. (metaphorically that is)

Spankspeople
06-23-2004, 04:13 PM
My experience in the world of women and gaming says this.

(this may come off as a flame but i assure you...it isnt)

Games of that caliber that are played by girls are played by dork girls.

Believe it or not, but i know a ton of girls who are what most people perceive to be as hot. None of them play video games nor would be caught dead playing them outside of the occasional mario on SNES.

You are forgetting that in order for a girl to do the same things on a technological basis as a guy, her geek factor has to be sky high. And it seems the dual X chromosomes have a resistence to geek factor. Even in the hoggish and dorkish chicks i know, the extent of their games are online games on aol.

But thast just my experience.

Oh! I know one girl who plays her brothers copy of kingdom hearts but shes a very overwieight lesbian girl with a gimped arm. What do the girls that you know play those games look like? Do you have pictures?

Hmm... I have a friend who I would probably label as incredibly attractive who's probably clocked more hours in Diablo 2 than everyone else I know combined. I know another who is a Morrowind addict.

One of my friends met his wife through a MUD...

And the only person who will actually sit down with my Gameboy and play as Tingle in Wind Waker(okay, maybe that's not saying much) is far cuter than any of my male friends... =P

Granted, those are the only ones that I personally know, but that's mainly because I know maybe a dozen people...

*shrug*

No pictures, though. Dun' like posting pictures of people without their permission. MAYBE if this thread is still, for some reason, around come Canadia day I'll get a group shot at the BBQ. =P

cool breeze
06-23-2004, 06:23 PM
My experience in the world of women and gaming says this.

(this may come off as a flame but i assure you...it isnt)

Games of that caliber that are played by girls are played by dork girls.

Believe it or not, but i know a ton of girls who are what most people perceive to be as hot. None of them play video games nor would be caught dead playing them outside of the occasional mario on SNES.

You are forgetting that in order for a girl to do the same things on a technological basis as a guy, her geek factor has to be sky high. And it seems the dual X chromosomes have a resistence to geek factor. Even in the hoggish and dorkish chicks i know, the extent of their games are online games on aol.

But thast just my experience.

Oh! I know one girl who plays her brothers copy of kingdom hearts but shes a very overwieight lesbian girl with a gimped arm. What do the girls that you know play those games look like? Do you have pictures?


WOW! :scream: I do find that a little funny never the less. It's nice to know how some men see us. i will amit i am not the a pencil thin bueaty
queen ( i what they classify as cute:D )but iím not a Amazon looking lesbian either. This is why most women donít play game. My cousin love games and she is what you call girly girl (hair makeup a diffrent outfit for every day in the month) but she will not play games around guys because of this same reason. But I also have to remember that this is also an American man point of view.:)

kerosene
06-23-2004, 06:27 PM
"It's nice to know how some men see us"

Not mix men and boys. I don't know weather to laugh or cry at posts on this thread.

H

ThePrintMaster
06-23-2004, 06:39 PM
What you guys are forgetting is that you are comparing your various inner circles with your various inner circles.

We are talking about women in the industry and the trend. Women will increase proportionately with the increase of industry jobs. If there are 1 woman for every 10 men...then it will remain in that ratio.

Again, call me sexist or whatever. thats fine, I do not mind that at all. Its very untrue but I do not mind that. The realm of computer graphics no matter the medium wether it be print, animation, video editing, whatever is largely a mans world. There are a few women and the women that are in it are very good. This applies to video games as well.

Its just like the automobile industry. Mostly a mans industry but the few women that are in it are really good. Mostly women are turned off by it because its dominated by men. They shun that sort of stuff on a cultural basis.

I am not against women by any means. Hell, I wish i could have more hotties next to me while I create all day. But do I get that? No, all the hotties are on the sales staff. Please god find me a hot ass chick that would come to my house and play Tekken and not suck.

They do exist but their numbers are few...and the percentage of hot chicks are only a fraction of that. Get pissed off and call me sexist if you will...but thats the truth.

the proof: Call any of the colleges of art, SCAD, Full Sail, DigiPen, VFS, whatever...ask them their male to female ratio in the digital arts programs.

edit: Then call the guys there and ask if any of the chicks are hot. And what sucks even more for the single guy...ask them how many of the hot chicks arent either lesbian or married.

I went to full sail and the ratio of male:female was 11:1. We had one girl in our class in digital media ( which is probably more females than other digital arts ) She was kinda hot, but married. One girl in my roommates computer animation class (ugly) and no girls in a good friends game design class ( and only one in the entire program at the time)

PhilWesson
06-23-2004, 06:56 PM
definitely an interesting topic. Basically, i just think that i have to reiterate my point:

Girls play games too, and they're not all lesbians.

Actually, i read in a survey in some gaming mag that women are approaching 40% of the population of america gamers.

25% of that 40% play RPGs.

Makes you think, eh?

Kargokultti
06-23-2004, 07:01 PM
I'd see more movies if there'd be more people like me making them. I happen to be a grrl, but I mostly detest girl-movies. "People like me" in the sense of having similar artistic/political/whatever aspirations consists of all kinds of people, regardless of gender.

As to why don't girls play (computer)games: I'd guess it has something to do with the gaming culture and the consepts of the games available. But it wouldn't do to go guessing beyond that; I can only speak on my behalf. Sociology is interesting, but not that interesting.

Synkronizer, ThePrintMaster, I hope you guys realize that with opinions like yours... Sheesh, I'd call you... Well, names, but that wouldn't be very constructive. Go out and really try to communicate with people of the opposite sex. Seems a bit like you haven't done that much thus far.

cool breeze
06-23-2004, 07:03 PM
I am not against women by any means. Hell, I wish i could have more hotties next to me while I create all day. But do I get that? No, all the hotties are on the sales staff. Please god find me a hot ass chick that would come to my house and play Tekken and not suck.

That funny i had a guy tell me that he didn't want to play me in Tekken because he couldn't stand loosing to a girl.

And i too wish i could be surrounded by the hot men just like the ones you see in tekken:D

cool breeze
06-23-2004, 07:05 PM
I'd see more movies if there'd be more people like me making them. I happen to be a grrl, but I mostly detest girl-movies. "People like me" in the sense of having similar artistic/political/whatever aspirations consists of all kinds of people, regardless of gender.

As to why don't girls play (computer)games: I'd guess it has something to do with the gaming culture and the consepts of the games available. But it wouldn't do to go guessing beyond that; I can only speak on my behalf. Sociology is interesting, but not that interesting.

Synkronizer, ThePrintMaster, I hope you guys realize that with opinions like yours... Sheesh, I'd call you... Well, names, but that wouldn't be very constructive. Go out and really try to communicate with people of the opposite sex. Seems a bit like you haven't done that much thus far.
i coudn't agree more Kargokultti :applause:

Kargokultti
06-23-2004, 07:10 PM
Oo, what is this warm fuzzy feeling?

DaemonMagus
06-23-2004, 07:21 PM
I know plenty of good looking girls that play video games. On the last day of school I brought in my GBA and it was used by girls just as often as it was used by guys, and the best player that used it was a girl. And yes she was pretty.

But that's not the point. The way you are saying things, it sounds like you think the female gamers that aren't beautiful don't count. Of course the proportion of beautiful girls that play video games will be lower. That's because there are less beautiful girls on this planet to play the games than girls which aren't classified as that. And I doubt the proportion of women to men will stay the same as the industry grows. It's still a relatively new industry and as soon as the stereotype that gamers are only geeky men drops, people will stop dissuading girls from playing games. It's like the fashion industry, if you hear that only gay guys design clothing, would you want to do it?

ThePrintMaster
06-23-2004, 07:26 PM
thats the very reason I do not design clothing.

Did you know that old men and old ladies sitting at home playing solitare on the PC is factored into the category of "gamers"?

Or at least according to an old WIRED article i read some time ago

creative destructions
06-23-2004, 08:28 PM
ThePrintMaster is an idiot. He represents himself only, so take no offense from the rest of the male population.

ThePrintMaster
06-23-2004, 09:22 PM
ThePrintMaster is an idiot. He represents himself only, so take no offense from the rest of the male population.

this guy designs clothing

:bounce:

It is curious how me halfassedly quoting sources and offering up scenarios for you guys to go try out to back up my point makes me an idiot. Of course, then again, some people are just touchy. And they design clothes
:D :thumbsup:

cheybea
06-23-2004, 11:46 PM
I play video games...only the ones visually appealing...i don't play fighting games..or the ones that scare the crap outta me..
.....anyway, I would rather watch someone else play, so i could look at the game environments, characters, what-not..and get inspired.
But I love video games...just mainly for the eye-candy

oh and what ThePrintMaster said...is true....and I also went to FullSail..and there weren't that many girls there...I remember in our "Gen Ed" classes...there was probably 100 people in there...and only 12 or so were girls....

anyway..thats my 2 cents

-Chels

heavyness
06-24-2004, 12:37 AM
if we keep feeding this whole "women don't play and anyone who plays games is a geek" guess what is going to happen? nothing. same shit, new day.

grow up for a second. stop using the words geeks and nerds. do professional athletes walk around and introduce themselves as "jocks"?

as for women gamers, they are gaining ground quickly. games like Sims, any FPS, and online RPGS are inhabited by tons a women. and does it matter if they are "pretty" or "sexy." if it does, please go back in the hole you live in, or your parents' basement because you wont be getting any with an attitude like that. if you want more female gamers, you need to grow up.

ps, my wife can kick some ass in Tekken Tag and UT2004 CTF.

jishjosh
06-24-2004, 12:41 AM
Doesn't this apply to every type of game?

The whole concept of women playing any game seems weird to me.....correct me if I'm wrong.
Games seems in nature to be a man's thing.
Women play games too, but other ones. Psychological games. With real people!

But that's just my opinion
Spoken truly like someone who hasen't gotten laid in a long, long time.

CelticArtist
06-24-2004, 12:48 AM
I don't know about games, because i'm not a big gamer, but at SCAD in our computer art program, we had a decent ration of men:women, probably about 5:1 i'd say, and no, they weren't all pretty, but hey, not all the guys were Brad Pitt either, so that's a dumb-a$$ excuse. At my job, there are a few women on the production staff, not many, but a few, and they're good at what they do, it is still a mans world in 3D, women just don't see it as a viable position for the most part, but that is definitely changing, when i started college, we had almost no women, and in HS, my tech classes were 98% men, but now, when i was visiting SCAD recently, it seemed like there was a much higher percentage of women in the computer art building. Also, alot of women do web design, graphic design, and motion graphics (title sequences, etc.) they are in our industry as much as the modelers and animators. Frankly, i'll agree with whoever said they'd like more women, i sure as hell wouldn't mind more of a female presence around me, casual flirtation is always fun :)

ThePrintMaster
06-24-2004, 02:10 AM
if we keep feeding this whole "women don't play and anyone who plays games is a geek" guess what is going to happen? nothing. same shit, new day.

grow up for a second. stop using the words geeks and nerds. do professional athletes walk around and introduce themselves as "jocks"?

as for women gamers, they are gaining ground quickly. games like Sims, any FPS, and online RPGS are inhabited by tons a women. and does it matter if they are "pretty" or "sexy." if it does, please go back in the hole you live in, or your parents' basement because you wont be getting any with an attitude like that. if you want more female gamers, you need to grow up.

ps, my wife can kick some ass in Tekken Tag and UT2004 CTF.

we are geeks and nerds.....its life.... im sorry it hurts your feelings but thats just the way it is.

Bring your wife......she could probably kick my ass at UT...but she dosent stand a chance at tekken. Id let her win though if shes a hottie!

Mooncalf
06-24-2004, 02:26 AM
'k

Gender is a big issue with me. I'll start off by saying that--anyone who knows me halfway decently knows that when stereotypes and generalizations get thrown around, my soapbox isn't too far from making an appearance.

I honestly don't know how a woman's attractiveness got pulled into this thread at all. Honestly, it escapes me. Or her sexuality. Or mens' sexuality, or frequency of intercourse...

But look. What I mean to say is this.

Of course women will become a growing presence in games. Yes, it's a boy's club for the moment--has been for a while, I'm guessing. You'll find the same thing in law, and medicine, and architechture, and landscaping, and shoe-shining... whatever.

We live in an incredible time when more people than ever are treated like what they are: people. I don't buy that women have a different mentality than men, or than men have a different capacity than women. Beyond what's socially conditioned, we're all the same. And as a species, we're all starting to get better at recognizing that.

The trouble is that it takes time. People are resistant to change and new ideas. It's frightening to be told "The way you're used to thinking doesn't really work anymore." So it's slow. But it happens, and the proverbial snowball rolls to become an avalanche, and before you know it men are working beside women, blacks are working beside whites, and Asians, and Hispanics, and Canadians, and people from Bangladesh, and people from Nashville, Tennessee.

And by the time that happens, (and I promise you it will), people won't be talking about how many women are working in the gaming industry because it'll just be a given. It won't make sense to ask.

At one time, the world of college professorship was mostly male dominated. But when's the last time you went to class, saw that your professor was a woman and said "Hm... interesting. A female professor. Who'da thunk it?" You haven't, right? Because you just accept it as natural without any meaning.

That's what it'll be like for the gaming industry. There's women working in games right now, and there's women who enjoy playing games right now. The numbers are small, but they'll grow. But it'll take time... you want to speed up the process? Be impatient! Start wanting the change more. :)

Will games change? Of course.

But I can't imagine they'll be "less male, less war-ish, less big-guns, big-breast, big killing-ish"... in the same way that I don't think that they'll be "more female, more tender, more cutesy... and oh! lots of shopping, 'cuz girls like shopping, don't they?"

I don't know what "kind" of games they'll be. But I guarantee that their desiribility will be directly proportional to the talent that goes into them.

And if you can convince me of the difference between "male talent" and "female talent", well, I'll give you $100. Any takers?

- M

ThePrintMaster
06-24-2004, 03:37 AM
I find it best not to argue with activists. They tend to get pissy when proven wrong.

With that, I shall no longer respond to this thread

DaemonMagus
06-24-2004, 04:13 AM
I agree whole-heartedly with what Mooncalf said.

Lil_Mick
06-24-2004, 05:02 AM
:I know a girl that plays alot of games too. She isn't a big fat ugly lesbian with a disability, in fact she's quite pretty! But then again, she also rides a motorcycle.

NICE!! Will she go out with me! :)

teagan
06-24-2004, 05:38 AM
this isn't high school anymore so lets drop the jocks vs. nerds thing. being one of 3 girls in my computer animation classes wasn't shocking but we are creeping up on you alittle at a time. i think if the gaming industry just focuses on guys, then of course women won't be eager to play. i am still searching for the brad pitt poster inside one of the lockers in MGS. girls just need to be inroduced to games and the media doesn't seem to help either. don't keep saying "games are for guys". when i was working for an elearning company, we would play UT after work. it was so much fun. some of the girls couldnt believe i would stay till 1am playing games. i showed them the game and they loved it. i think girls just need to be introduced. if they don't have a brother or friend playing, they don't know what they are missing. as far as beauty goes, thats just stupid. i am so insulted! i have many friends who are in the entertainment field of animation and i don't think you have a good case. i have been working at zone.com and there are girls who want to get their feet wet in games.

women worked in the factories during the war, women like to play games. who knows, maybe women will be able to vote soon!

Trambott
06-24-2004, 06:01 AM
ThePrintMaster is an idiot. He represents himself only, so take no offense from the rest of the male population.

umm yah speak for yourself why don't you, and I don't think you got the right to be calling anyone an idiot when you think that men and women are the same.

baaah888
06-24-2004, 09:30 AM
'k

And if you can convince me of the difference between "male talent" and "female talent", well, I'll give you $100. Any takers?

- M
Man you people are makeing it hard for me, Ive been reading this thread and i so want to pop in with some sarcastic comments and rude jokes, but this is a nice forum so im restraining myself, ..... female talent ... bearing children? can i have my $100 please (no just messing, its just so hard to refrain being male and well.. big mouthed/has no shame).

Anyways with that comment as i have stated earlier, well i think i have, There are Easily as many talented female artists (not CG artists but artists in general) as there are men, and that i want to see them in games, but like i said alot of women dont want to be in games at the moment, and since the female % of gamers is still cathcing up its going to be a little while before the levels start to even off.

I mean how many guys in the industry played games growing up, i think everyone will raise their hand. and how many women in the industry played games growing up, i think again they will raise their hands.

So what we need is a massive population of female gamers now. so that the artists from that group will then think wow i could do game art,

all the women i knew from my art A level didnt want to touch computer art, since they've never been into games and stuff, which meant out of 30 or so very talented women. none went on to learn cg, however 4 of the guys and myself are learning CG. so its about educating as they grow up if were to change the stereotyping,

theres no point people saying the industry is sexist, cause thats not true, the best people for the job generally get hired, and since theres say 1 million men and 50,000 women looking for jobs then the percentages of people with lots of talent are going to be similar, 20:1 ratio, (thats clearly not exact,) but you hopefully get where im coming from,

I would like to see more women in the industry and unlike some of you i don't care what they look like, anythings better than a sausage fest. also female friends make meeting these "hot" women easier,

cgman27
06-24-2004, 10:44 AM
But I guess to prove that theory you should just run out to your local bar and find the first attractive girl you can find, buy her a drink, then ask her to come back to your place to play halo. Try that, then come back and tell me how it goes.

If all you can think of to do with a girl after picking her up from a bar is go home and play HALO, you obviously have just found your first problem looking at this topic with an open mind.

Mooncalf
06-24-2004, 04:29 PM
..... female talent ... bearing children? can i have my $100 please

Touche. ;) Oh, I might make the argument that bearing children isn't a "talent" as much as a "biological reality"... but your point is well-taken. I felt like I may have stepped over the line with that last snarky comment, and you're absolutely right to call me out on it. Thank you.


That said, I think we agree that "artistic talent" doesn't limit itself in either sex.



So what we need is a massive population of female gamers now. so that the artists from that group will then think wow i could do game art,


And I think games are changing. I was just thinking about this last night when I was at my local bowling alley--they had one of those skate-board games. And it made me recall that anytime I've been in an arcade lately, there are some young women (probably age 15 and under--the ages when you want to hook people onto your games) getting killer scores at Dance Dance Revolution.



theres no point people saying the industry is sexist, cause thats not true, the best people for the job generally get hired, and since theres say 1 million men and 50,000 women looking for jobs then the percentages of people with lots of talent are going to be similar, 20:1 ratio, (thats clearly not exact,) but you hopefully get where im coming from,

I think there's a difference between concious and unconcious sexism. As an overt thing, I don't believe anyone is sitting in some boardroom saying "Hey everybody, let's not hire any women." But as a social institution, the sexism is still there (as is the racism and homophobia, but don't get me started ;) )... but it'll change.

Overall, though, yes, I absolutely agree with this: if someone walks into an interview with a portfolio demonstrating their talent and work ethic, they'll get the job regardless of what kind of chromosomes they have.

- M

teagan
06-24-2004, 04:41 PM
Overall, though, yes, I absolutely agree with this: if someone walks into an interview with a portfolio demonstrating their talent and work ethic, they'll get the job regardless of what kind of chromosomes they have
nicely said.

teagan
06-24-2004, 04:41 PM
double post

Rudity
06-24-2004, 05:19 PM
Overall, though, yes, I absolutely agree with this: if someone walks into an interview with a portfolio demonstrating their talent and work ethic, they'll get the job regardless of what kind of chromosomes they have.

- M
You asume every interviewer follows the same guidlines and has the same opinion with that statement.
Thats definetly not true. To some people, gender matters. (you'll never know who)
Sucksc BUT it's reality.

My opinion on the topic at hand.
More woman can play/make games if they want too. But if you do, you're competing with me for a jobs/frags now :p

Mooncalf
06-24-2004, 05:32 PM
You asume every interviewer follows the same guidlines and has the same opinion with that statement.
Thats definetly not true. To some people, gender matters. (you'll never know who)
Sucks BUT it's reality.


Yes, you're right. I got a little carried away with idealistic enthusiasm.

I'm sure there have been cases when women have not gotten a job that men did... whether the employer intentionally made the decision that way or not. If an equally talented man and woman are up for the same job, we've largely been conditioned to choose the man. And yeah, sometimes it's more overt than that.

I still hold that I think it's changing, though. :)



But if you do, you're competing with me for a jobs/frags now :p

Not to change the subject... but what's "frags"? :)

- M

Rudity
06-24-2004, 05:59 PM
Not to change the subject... but what's "frags"? :)

- M
Frags would be your kill count in a FPS game.
Or the number of chicks you've slept with (inside joke with my geek buddies) :p


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=frag&r=f



USE A NURB!!!

cool breeze
06-24-2004, 06:00 PM
Mooncalf :thumbsup:
and with that said

ThePrintMaster why are you not posting. i may not agree but i like to hear some one else opinion that does not agree with me.:)


ohhh i love:love: a good debt:D

ThePrintMaster
06-24-2004, 06:32 PM
I have found it in my best interest not to argue with activists in any situation outside of the proper format.

It seems that when you argue with an activist, they only want to argue the point based on the way things should be as opposed to the way things are.

Activists think everything should be fair and equal no matter what. I believe that the real world does not allow that. I believe it is unattainable no matter the circumstances.

For instance: I am a 24 year old single white male who comes from a fairly wealthy background. Right now, at this very point in time, the cards are stacked against me in an unbelievable manner from a governmental and employment standpoint. I am uneligible( or at least was ) for any sort of governmental education assistance despite the fact that my father gives me no support whatsoever. Affirmative action sees to it that, even though I may be the better man for the job, someone considered a "minority" should get it.

There are scholarship and grant opporunities for women, people of color, people of alternate lifestyles, people that are anything except a single white male.

That being said, I am in a good job, making good money, supporting myself and having a grand ole time despite the lack of assistance from anywhere. Why? Because I busted my ass and did what it took to rise to the top. That includes 50k of college debt and a bachelors degree in business from a University and an associates degree in digital media from an art school.

Despite all of my efforts of working hard and killing myself to get to my position, an activist would have you believe that I should be overlooked for all of the above things because of "social inequalities."

I am by no means a sexist, a racist, a bigot, or any of the labels that have been handed to single white straight men. But I do feel like I am getting the shaft somewhere because of a fear of lawsuits and reprisals.

And that, is why I choose not to respond.

edit: before this stirs up a hornets nest, understand this. I am not angry, nor bitter at my position in the social order of things. This is life, and this is what I have to deal with. While I do know what is going on, I choose not to complain about it. I just roll with the punches.

Boone
06-24-2004, 07:01 PM
Well, I usually find that most programmers are infact male. I haven't really come across a female programmer, yet...which kinda sucks! I hear ladies have brilliant multi-tasking abilities! I also hate it when they come out with a tone of logic that makes me feel quite insecure...:deal:

As for the whole issue of ladies playing games - if the game is right, then they'll play it. For some reason, I never get the chance to play on the Dance games in my local arcade because of screaming girls forming a "town meeting" around the machine in question...which is quite nice to see! Also, Out-Run2 is another popular title with the fair maidens... :cool:

I think what might make it difficult for a lady to become comfortable with a game is that it is simply made for a male audience. "DOA volley ball" or whatever its called - is a prime example( or at least demonstrates where I'm coming from ). However, if you take a look at an early Resident Evil game - you can play as either a guy or a gal. Neither is made to appease dirty little fan-boys( or fan-girls! ), but insted give us someone to feel more at ease with as well as giving us two different perspectives. Its nice to see a little more thought given to character rather than simple :drool: factor...

Right...I'm gonna see if those bloody 14-year-olds are finished with "Dance stage"! :banghead:

PhilWesson
06-24-2004, 07:46 PM
Spoken truly like someone who hasen't gotten laid in a long, long time.
haha, well put

Mooncalf
06-24-2004, 07:57 PM
PrintMaster: If you've said one thing I agree with, it's that this isn't the forum for this kind of debate.

But, as it happens, I also agree with many other things you've said. Hope that isn't too surprising. :) I apologize if anything I've said seemed directed at you personally--I was merely voicing my opinion.

A few other people in this thread have mentioned the difference between seeing things how they are and how they could be. And I sincerely appreciate the tap on the shoulder from everyone who pointed it out.

(I do think it's important, however, to keep talking about how things could be)


Cool Breeze: I'm with you 100% on enjoying a good debate. Listening to people who disagree with you is the best way to broaden your own opinions. :) It's when "debate" turns into "arguement" that things turn counterproductive. But I think what we've seen here, mostly, is healthy debate. Good on us all for being able to talk about it, I say. :)


Teagan: Just wanted to say 'nice touch' bringing up the right to vote. :) Some people might say it's a heavy-handed anaolgy, but I think it's apt enough. I'm always fascinated when I recall that there were some women around the time of the Sufferage Movement.. there were WOMEN who said that women shouldn't have the right to vote. They believed the womens' place was the home, and men should run things, and that was that. It makes me smile to see how things have changed, and where they're heading...


Boone: Good luck horning in on the DDR floor with all the young women crowding around it. ;) Seriously, though, I've seen both men and women who rock that game down to its core--it really is something to watch, and if any of y'all haven't seen a good player in action, you should skedattle on down to your nearest arcade and watch 'em, because they're like ninjas! Teenage Dancing Ninjas!


- M

gnarlycranium
06-24-2004, 10:20 PM
Well, I usually find that most programmers are infact male. I haven't really come across a female programmer, yet...which kinda sucks! I hear ladies have brilliant multi-tasking abilities! I also hate it when they come out with a tone of logic that makes me feel quite insecure...:deal:
Come to think of it I've never heard of any female programmers either. Programmers are another breed entirely... talk about geek factor-- good gawd. It's not just a matter of social mechanics either, not even close-- there really just might BE a physiological difference in the way men and women's brains work and what they are capable of. Multitasking is one thing... all that linear math is quite something else. In fact, a multitasking sort of mind probably is NOT helpful when dealing with something as linear as code. I know I'll never be a programmer-- sure, I love to blast things in whatever game I get my hands on (my favorite is ripping people limb from limb in AvP as an Alien)... but I'm an artist. Programming SCARES me.

Boone
06-25-2004, 05:18 PM
Re: Gnarly C.

I'm not a geek...honestly! You believe me, right? You Don't?!? DAMMIT - YOU MUST BELIEVE ME!?! I'M TELLING YOU I'M NOT A SAD-SACK WHO WRITES CODE ALL DAY!!!

Doh! :banghead:

cool breeze
06-25-2004, 05:20 PM
I know I'll never be a programmer-- sure, I love to blast things in whatever game I get my hands on (my favorite is ripping people limb from limb in AvP as an Alien)... but I'm an artist. Programming SCARES me.
do agree with that part on the programming and the alien part. i personally like any game that i can blow someone away and see the gut fly every, say few nasty word to them, and keep going with no regret ( the suffering, GTA 3&4 for example) But thatt just the type of girl i am:):twisted:

but on the programming part my mother programs well she did for a while. i don't care for it because i too am an artist:D

Gimpy Butzke
06-27-2004, 08:44 PM
I just finished High School where I took a video game development class. There were I think 5 girls out of the 3 different VGD classes. One of them who I've gone to school with since 4th grade was an incredible artist. She is going to the Art institute in the fall and she will most likely do very well. I mean seriously she had some of the best drawings I've ever seen.

She also was one of the few that actually tried to learn as much as they could in the class. Aside from the guys that were in the class everyday and also went to all 3 scheduled classes. We were probably the best in the class. And I was schocked to find out how well she was doing. Not because she was a girl but it was the fact that I was actually jealous of what she was doing. She puts me to shame with her drawings because I can't draw and she was probably doing almost the same level of dificulty or it was more difficult that what I was doing.

As for myself, I am going off to Academy of Art U in the fall. My friend has already been there for a year and from what I understand there isn't and overwhelming ratio of men and women. So change may not be that slow. It just might not be so noticable right now. Or I am totally wrong and I wasted my time.

Synkronizer
06-29-2004, 02:09 AM
Spoken truly like someone who hasen't gotten laid in a long, long time.

Touchť :sad: Allthough I blame this purely on myself. I bear no grudge or hate for women or any in particular.

think what might make it difficult for a lady to become comfortable with a game is that it is simply made for a male audience. "DOA volley ball" or whatever its called

indeed, less games should be made assuming that boys are the consuming public.

Synkronizer, ThePrintMaster, I hope you guys realize that with opinions like yours... Sheesh, I'd call you... Well, names, but that wouldn't be very constructive. Go out and really try to communicate with people of the opposite sex. Seems a bit like you haven't done that much thus far.

I am not against women by any means. Hell, I wish i could have more hotties next to me while I create all day. But do I get that? No, all the hotties are on the sales staff...

*sigh* Don't compare me with him...

My opinions are based upon personal observations, these are not principles or beliefs I want the world to live by nor do I want to live by them. If you don't share my opinion then prove me wrong, allthough I find that so far this thread has done a great job in softening my views.


haha, well put.

Why the enjoyment? You must be one of them fat gimpy lesbians with a grudge against all men! :twisted:

My God, this has become a agitated discussion, and all I did was make an broad ironic generalisation based on some women I know (to whom I bear no grudges against, btw). Then someone started with the ugly lesbian stuff, and BOOOM!

I'll leave you boys... with your toys, for now. I'm sleepy

Afgncaap: No she won't!

the_zed_axis
06-29-2004, 11:02 PM
its a beautiful day outside the sun is shining and birds are chirping but i would rather be inside on my computer trying to get my model to look good , try to rig it and then make a real fluid animation out of it

translation -- i am a geek

another translation -- i am passionate about what i do

ofcourse we need more women in the industry they will bring what men cannot and have not brought into the industry their own sense of creativity, new ideas that we men are oblivious about

clubb6
06-30-2004, 11:35 AM
A) im a bloke, i love games and work in games. Im not a geek though and regularly find myself balls deep in a chick.

B) i was seeing a girl (she was a bit of a chick. I'd rate her 7/10) that used to kick my ass at soul calibur daily to the point where i once smashed my pad to pieces and stormed out the room. She was an amazing gamer, but a casual gamer.

C) My last GF. Also quite hot. (7.5/10). She never liked games but saw me playing wind waker once. She became a gamer instantly. Also, i remember giving her a good dogging while she beat the big plant boss thing. Very impressive. I suppose girls are pretty good at multi-tasking though. I propositioned her once to blow me while i played DOA beach volley ball. She told me to f*ck right off.

BOTTOM LINE: i tend not to follow stereotypes.

cool breeze
06-30-2004, 04:51 PM
i love the commit you guys make. funny yet serious, serious yet funny. i think i am slowly falling in love with you guys:love:. or maybe thats gas its hard to tell:)

mummey
06-30-2004, 05:29 PM
i love the commit you guys make. funny yet serious, serious yet funny. i think i am slowly falling in love with you guys:love:. or maybe thats gas its hard to tell:)
EEEWWWWW!!!!... Nerd Lovin!.... :eek::argh:



-B

For the record: It is my opinion that the consoles themselves are marketed for males only and that needs to change before you see some serious numbers of women gamers. Until then, many are just (insert male friend's name here)'s gf or wife and it is actually the friend who owns the console that the girl plays as well.

teagan
06-30-2004, 10:36 PM
EEEWWWWW!!!!... Nerd Lovin!.... :eek::argh:



-B

For the record: It is my opinion that the consoles themselves are marketed for males only and that needs to change before you see some serious numbers of women gamers. Until then, many are just (insert male friend's name here)'s gf or wife and it is actually the friend who owns the console that the girl plays as well.
and yes this is probably very true. which brings me back to my point that girls need to be introduced. games were targeted towards the male audience, but over the last year more girls are interested. also i think it might not be our generation, but my sister who is 17 years younger loves playing the PS2.
here at zone.com woman are the targeted audience. i enjoy creating graphics that are appealing to girls. ok, i prefer tekkan, ut, and mario games more than games found on zone but would like to think i contribute.

also, i think girls are more subjective to lean towards the guy's interests, more so than the guy. so i think that it will be some time before a girl asks her parents for a system for christmas (with the exception of the game boy).

cool breeze
07-01-2004, 02:02 PM
so i think that it will be some time before a girl asks her parents for a system for christmas (with the exception of the game boy).
i have notice that girls will often have or ask for gamboys over larger game systems. why is that

baaah888
07-01-2004, 02:38 PM
it could be alot of things:

the type of games that are on it.

The fact its not seen as a console, or male dominated

It's a little gadget like a walkman,

good for travelling and stuff,

The reasons are fairly wide and open to debate, but i think its just a well marketed, multi gender machine that appeals to everyone, And it has a credeability and non geek aura round the name. If that made sense, ..........
basically its all consumers friendly :)

teagan
07-01-2004, 05:02 PM
i have notice that girls will often have or ask for gamboys over larger game systems. why is that
one word "POKEMON"

t-man152
07-01-2004, 06:03 PM
I think that the reason women don't play all types of games (although it is changing) is because of what type of games come out. every game has to have conflict or something of interest. the easiest conflict to sell is good vs evil

good being you and evil being monsters or bad guys and you have to kill evil usually with guns and other such weapons. this is extremely simple it's violent and it sells. the problem is violence is more atractive to guys. girls usually want more in-depth conflict.

most girls I know who play video games although some play first person shooters most play MMORPG's. the reason being is the comunity element.

I really dont think that girls in the industry is going to change much since the simplest type of conflict will still be violence and making violent video games will be the easiest and best way to make the sale.

I mean the problem isnt who makes the video games because guys can make games that have a deaper conflict and be apealing to girls but the fact is it will take more time more effort than the regular violence driven game and it is not a sure pay off unlike games such as Farcry, Unreal Tournament 2k3/4,Half Life 2, Doom 3 and so on.

and although I have nothing against girls becoming a bigger part of the industry I just hope it doesnt bring E3 Booth hunks.

cool breeze
07-01-2004, 06:31 PM
The reasons are fairly wide and open to debate, but i think its just a well marketed, multi gender machine that appeals to everyone, And it has a credeability and non geek aura round the name. If that made sense, ..........
basically its all consumers friendly :)
so do you think if they market larger game systems the way they do gameboy it would sale more to girls.

one word "POKEMON"
I DESPISE the little yellow monster :twisted:

teagan
07-01-2004, 07:12 PM
I think that the reason women don't play all types of games (although it is changing) is because of what type of games come out. every game has to have conflict or something of interest. the easiest conflict to sell is good vs evil
good point. although more games are coming out without violence. and as far as girls working in the gaming industry, i would consider myself a "cute" artist than a "violent" artist. but as long as i am working in the creative field, i would enjoy just about anything. i know i could bring more to a violent game than my co-worker because i enjoy them. but most girl artists draw "cute".

and although I have nothing against girls becoming a bigger part of the industry I just hope it doesnt bring E3 Booth hunks.
well i dont think thats going to happen. i dont think girls would buy a game because some hunk guy is at a booth. i think "sex sells" is for the guys.

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