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RIC
05-30-2004, 08:57 AM
Hi all !!!!
Here is a test animation of a monster that I skin with muscular system.
Made with Maya, Paraform, Prman.
Comment are always welcome.

http://www.richardraimbault.com/images/muscularsystempreview.jpg



http://www.richardraimbault.com/images/musculartestb.avi

3ivx delta 3.5 7.9 megas


Sorry for my bad english ....:blush:
Take Care!:wavey:

McSpirit
05-30-2004, 09:22 AM
Looks great. Do you know if there is any thing like this for 3DsMax ??

Dusk108
05-30-2004, 10:19 AM
Damn thats cool, i assume paraform is a plugin or another program or something cause i've seen nothing like this in maya. Or maybe i just haven't come accross it yet. Either pretty cool.

visionmaster2
05-30-2004, 01:15 PM
COOL ! good job. do you have a link for the muscular plugin please ?

rem07
05-30-2004, 02:40 PM
olala!je l'avais jamais vu celui-la.....les déformations sont terribles ,t'as du bien te prendre la t^te;voila 1 perso ke j'aimerais bien animé.vas-y post tes recherches
bon bisous mon ptit :scream:

:bounce:

DAREONER
05-30-2004, 02:46 PM
impressive !

RIC
05-30-2004, 03:14 PM
Thx a lot guys !!! :bounce:
I m not using any plugins, I made the dynamique skin with maya cloth, and Paraform are only used for the modeling.
Rem07/Dareoner : Merci les gars !!!! :beer:

Take care !!!!:wavey:

ahven
05-30-2004, 03:16 PM
awesome and realistic movements too. Did you use some motion capture equipment or ready made data? Excellent! :thumbsup:

Kel Solaar
05-30-2004, 03:59 PM
Terrible ! ça le fait vraiment bien :) Tu penses que tu détailleras un peu ton workflow dans un articles ou un tut?

RIC
05-31-2004, 08:00 AM
Digital Beat : thanks!! but it s just a very basical animation, that I have made in keyframe to show the deformation of the muscular system.
Kel Solaar : Merci !! je pense pas que je ferai un tut pour ca, parceque c est pas utilisable en prod ( 10 heures de calcul pour 120 frames de cloth ) et c est hyper lourd a gerer dans la scene (toute les surfaces nurbs sont wrapees sur le cloth ):cry:.... Parcontre chui en train de faire des tests pour le refaire sans calcul de dynamique et c est beaucoup plus leger et stable.

See you !!! :wavey:

ZeroNeuro
05-31-2004, 09:30 AM
Hey could you at least try to post in english so we can follow things too? :)

pur9e
05-31-2004, 09:39 AM
Yes, this is very interesting stuff. Would be great if you can tell us a little more about how you did it, and perhaps translate what you have written here. Why is it all nurbs patches? Maya cloth must be a lot better than XSI's because you have very little noise in it.

I can't imagine the kind of simulation times this must have taken.

Please tell the english speakers more.

Kel Solaar
05-31-2004, 09:40 AM
Ahh dommage parceque le resultat était vraiment prometteur :) J'attends avec impatience les nouveaux tests (dans ce cas l_ j'imagine que tu déformes directement la peau en wraping) Bonne continuation en tout cas :)

ZeroNeuro: Ric is saying that he thinks he will not made a tutorial because the dynamic calculation are very time consuming (about 10 hours for 120 frames) and unusable in production , there are also a lot of nurbs surfaces to wrap on the cloth so it's difficult to manage the scene. Otherwise he is doing some tests without the dynamic and it's running very well and faster.

ThirdEye
05-31-2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Kel Solaar
Ahh dommage parceque le resultat était vraiment prometteur :) J'attends avec impatience les nouveaux tests (dans ce cas lß j'imagine que tu déformes directement la peau en wraping) Bonne continuation en tout cas :)

ZeroNeuro: Ric is saying that he thinks he will not made a tutorial because the dynamic calculation are very time consuming (about 10 hours for 120 frames) and unusable in production , there are also a lot of nurbs surfaces to wrap on the cloth so it's difficult to manage the scene. Otherwise he is doing some tests without the dynamic and it's running very well and faster.

Yeah, and what did u say here? Are we gonna play this game for good? :shrug: However great stuff Ric, keep at it.

[plugged on the front page]

DimitrisLiatsos
05-31-2004, 09:49 AM
Aye!!! ...dynamic skin with maya cloth....mama!

Immpresive !!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Kel Solaar
05-31-2004, 10:00 AM
Yeah, and what did u say here? Are we gonna play this game for good? However great stuff Ric, keep at it.

Sorry ThirdEye, it's easier for us to speak french (my english is not very excellent, and i cannot translate everything in it :shrug: ) I was just saying "what a pity, the resultat was really promising (because RIC says that he will not make a tutorial) and that i was waiting for his new test without the dynamic (and in his cas, i was thinking that he is directly deforming the mesh with the wrap)"

Clanger
05-31-2004, 10:02 AM
Impressive stuff, I do hope you continue to develop this method looks like it has a lot of potential.

Originally posted by McSpirit
Looks great. Do you know if there is any thing like this for 3DsMax ??
Yes ACT, they keep promising a Maya version too

http://www.digimation.com/software/asp/product.asp?product_id=369&category_id=1

Edit:
Here's a better link:
http://www.cgcharacter.com/

WhiteRabbitObj
05-31-2004, 10:12 AM
That's bloody awesome man. I've discussed with different folks in the past the idea of setting up a skin-sim using Maya Cloth but I never did it. Good to see someone who did, and see very excellent results. Great stuff!

JFFORTIN
05-31-2004, 10:13 AM
Nice Rick l like it, l ve done the same thing with syflex 1 month ago,
and l was pretty happy of the result.
Kepp it up (y)

Jamaludin
05-31-2004, 10:40 AM
wow, this looks great the muscle system looks like its working like a charm, and the model itself looks good as well. Great GREAT Work !

ThirdEye
05-31-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Kel Solaar
Sorry ThirdEye, it's easier for us to speak french (my english is not very excellent, and i cannot translate everything in it :shrug: )


My english sucks too (you know, i'm Italian), but i try to speak english anyway, otherwise people and moderators won't understand what i'm saying, after all this is an international forum. Imagine if we had to read 100 posts in 100 different languages, i somehow can understand spanish or french since they're both latin based like my language, but it's not the same thing with Swedish, Greek or Japanese. A couple of days ago we banned a person who insulted Pascal Blanchè in his thread, but i had to use Babelfish to understand he was insulting him. :hmm:

DoLeeP
05-31-2004, 11:35 AM
just amazing I love it:thumbsup:
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

Phrenzy84
05-31-2004, 11:37 AM
excellent work there. Nice riggin, i am workin on a character and will be eventually creating a muscle rig, i dont have maya unlimited, and untill i win the lottery i dont think i will anytime soon :p. So i suppose you could do this muscle rig with softbodies? Its just i know that creating garments etc with maya unlimited can be very tedious, but in maya i hear that you can use polys for cloth aswell.


I havent seen the file yet, im still donwloadin it :).

FUG1T1VE
05-31-2004, 11:48 AM
would someone be kind enough to put a mirror up. I was halfway through the download when the link dissapeared.
Thanks :thumbsup:

Facial Deluxe
05-31-2004, 11:48 AM
Impressive stuff ! Congrats !

Originally posted by pur9e
Yes, this is very interesting stuff. Would be great if you can tell us a little more about how you did it, and perhaps translate what you have written here. Why is it all nurbs patches? Maya cloth must be a lot better than XSI's because you have very little noise in it.

I can't imagine the kind of simulation times this must have taken.

Please tell the english speakers more.

Pur9e, soon we'll have Syflex ;) and then the real fun (I guess)

RIC
05-31-2004, 11:51 AM
WOW thanks a lot everyone !!!! It s a great honor to be on frontpage :bounce: Thanks Kel Solaar for the translation !
Sorry for speaking french but english is torture for me :blush:
I made it with the garment of maya cloth ,but it s not a good technique to use in production, it took a lot of time to compute the cloth simulation and the wrap of the nurbs surface. I have tried to use only wrap on the muscle, but it s don t work, the skin must slice on the muscle. So I am working on an other technique with displacement.

Sorry for my horrible english .....

take care !

Gremlin
05-31-2004, 11:54 AM
looks fabulous,
i'm sure everyone here would be interested in a little basic walk through that uses the technique that we could then apply to our own characters.

however, FYI there seems to be some weird deformations goin on in the neck where the 2 collar bones pop up when he looks down, that lump shouldnt occur :hmm:

but it looks fabulous! great displacement map!
Cheers,
:beer:

Atwooki
05-31-2004, 12:22 PM
Really impressive Ric!
Shame the solving is so damn slow tho' :cry:
Nice to get a decent disp. map in there as well :thumbsup:

JFFORTIN:
I was interested that you're using 'Syflex' to generate a muscle-system, which I am attempting also; by all accounts, this should work a little quicker than Maya Cloth.... please check your PM shortly :)

Atwooki

Madison
05-31-2004, 12:25 PM
Very Impressive RIC!!
Is there any chance you could show us how you made this?

Excellent work, well done.

:beer:

ghZaaaRK
05-31-2004, 12:35 PM
damn! again a guy who doesn't know how to compress a video correctly!

30mb for 10seconds... please man!

pixopath
05-31-2004, 12:41 PM
Yo mister ! like i have already say to u , impressive work.
Impatient de voir t autres test.
C u soon

francescaluce
05-31-2004, 12:58 PM
:surprised :surprised



ciao
francesca

JoseLuis3D
05-31-2004, 01:32 PM
:bowdown:

disdathit
05-31-2004, 01:35 PM
yea man, compress compress.

what pc you using?? what hardware specifications??

How did u cope with working on this in the viewports?

disdathit
05-31-2004, 01:43 PM
right, im not the most experienced in 3d so correct me if im wrong, but im not sure why the cloth simulation was necessary.

Coudnt this have been done with usual bulge deformers and things like that??

I thought i was gona see a lot of interactive skin. A lot of hanging and swinging around under the chin and arms that would swing around after the keyframed anims. Do you know what i mean?? :surprised Kind of like, if he jumped, the skin would be sagging and bouncing all over the place?

It looks amazing of course, and I coudnt do this. Just a question.

agreenster
05-31-2004, 03:48 PM
Yeah, seems a bit like overkill to me. 10 hours for 120 frames? Woah.

You could do the same thing with a muscle system (like the one you have) and a wrap deformer, and it doesnt take nearly as long to calculate, and you get very similar results.

When computers get faster, however, it will be beneficial to know how to set up these complex systems.

webhead
05-31-2004, 04:07 PM
Nice stuff!:bounce:
It looks like early tests for LOTR or something.
I like the design of the creature as well!:thumbsup:

lf3d
05-31-2004, 04:17 PM
wow
can not wait to know how you can do this!!!:bounce:

JOSICH
05-31-2004, 04:46 PM
Espectacular. No more words.:drool:

ufotung
05-31-2004, 04:52 PM
Thanks for sharring ~

BenBarker
05-31-2004, 05:02 PM
That's a nice setup, but it still kind of looks like a rubber suit. I don't think there's anyway to avoid this unless you could paint the "thickness" on the skin. That is, change a parameter on the vertex level that affects the stretchiness and friction of the skin, making it seem thin in places (deformed a lot by the muscles) and thicker in others (hardly stretches at all).

Maybe if you changed cloth properties on the individual panels you could do this. What would really be nice though, was a system that dynamically did this to the areas of the skin that were stretched.

Rio Yeti
05-31-2004, 05:32 PM
Nice, although I admit I would have wanted some loose skin under chin and arms also (considering the cloth). But I can still understand the benefits of this technique as I'm working on a muscular system for a dancer, and deformable bones and skinning with tons of different bones is really a pain in the ass...
But as you said, on the other hand, simulation is way too long !

Everything is a matter of choices ! :shrug:

pixelmonk
05-31-2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by rem07
olala!je l'avais jamais vu celui-la.....les déformations sont terribles ,t'as du bien te prendre la t^te;voila 1 perso ke j'aimerais bien animé.vas-y post tes recherches
bon bisous mon ptit :scream:

:bounce:

Bless you... looks like you sneezed on your screen.

UnlikelyCorny
05-31-2004, 05:47 PM
the 30mb download is well worth it. Some 10 seconds are just more interesting than others...

One thing I wonder is though why you went for cloth in stead of softbodies? Isn't cloth a lot more calculation-troublesome with more chace of glitches?

Interesting stuff nevertheless, would appriciate it if you could elaborate on your mothods..

Corny

foxco
05-31-2004, 06:34 PM
very nice stuff. I am trying to creating somthing like what you did. but in xsi. its fun realy getting into leanring the proper muscles for the deformations.

/fox

shalom3d
05-31-2004, 06:48 PM
very nice RIC tell me do you have a tutorial or some steps on how to do this with the skin and the muscle
it's very nice men keep up the good work

may99
05-31-2004, 06:50 PM
hello what is paraform?

ambient-whisper
05-31-2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by may99
hello what is paraform?

its a modelling app that is often used to draw nurbs patches ontop of high detailed scanned models. it handles realllllllyyyy high detailed geometry very very well.

Joebount
05-31-2004, 07:53 PM
:beer: :buttrock: :beer:

BlackNull
05-31-2004, 08:55 PM
Thanks a lot for sharing your stuff, u said u were working on another method that would be more efficient, can't wait to see that. I'm using xsi...I wonder how I could use your method in it, I'll have to look into it.

Ca arrache, ca fait toujours plaisir de voir du beau travail d'un compatriotes francais!:D

Morganism
05-31-2004, 09:02 PM
This is very cool, I'd also like to hear more details about how it's done.
Also, 10 hours for 120 frames, which comes to 5 minutes a frame. That actually doesn't seem that bad to me. Of course, I guess it coule be better, but I remember reading that Tippet's muscle sim took 10 minutes a frame for Sammael.

At any rate, good work.

kiaran
05-31-2004, 09:04 PM
This is a really neat little test. Have you heard of the method they used on Hellboy? They also had problems with the skin taking a long time to simulate, but the results speak for themselves. Good job. :thumbsup:


You know, if you convert your mesh to Maya cloth (so that it gets tesselated in that weird random fashion) then delete the cloth solver. The newly tesselated geo will bend in a very nice way when smooth skinned. It's a neat little benefit of having Maya Cloth because I've yet to find any other tool that will tesselate your mesh the way cloth does. Of course, good edge loops can do the same thing, cloth is just easier.

loked
05-31-2004, 09:39 PM
For hellboy they basically wrote their own skin solver that did a similar thing to what cloth does. It just was a little more complex. Like it could calculate the distance between the muscle and the skin and then replicate a fatty layer. There was 2 kinds of solvers though. The one took 10 minutes per frame on one machine, but this solver would check the frame before and after and work accordingly, so it required it all be done on one machine, but the other solver didnt never previous or following frames, so they could do 100 frames on 10 machines at 10 minutes a frame and basically get 100 frames done in 10 minutes. There wasnt a real noticable difference. There were some shots however where they did use the more complex solver.

BTW, very cool little test. I've been doing a lot of muscle research as well, but havent really found enough time to get into it as much as I'd like.

later:wavey:
loked

PascalR
05-31-2004, 10:07 PM
Hi RIC!
Congratulations:buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:
I did not see the animation, this is really impressive:bowdown:
You worked very hard on this creature and you totally deserve the front page.

MORTEL!!!

Pascal

HocusPocus
05-31-2004, 10:30 PM
very good, Ric!
the system works very well, amazing!
Congratulations!

snovak
05-31-2004, 10:41 PM
a tutorial would be awesome. However, I would settle for some of misc. links to cloth related articles if anyone has them! That would be great!!

shahrokh
05-31-2004, 10:57 PM
Cool work.
But can you explain what are those blobby pop ups and behaviors of the skin in the love handle area and abdomin area?
It seems that the skin is sliding suddenly on itself.
May be you are using displacement map but it's definitely an issue, if you take care of it it's just very cool stuff
:beer:

pur9e
06-01-2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by shahrokh
Cool work.
But can you explain what are those blobby pop ups and behaviors of the skin in the love handle area and abdomin area?
It seems that the skin is sliding suddenly on itself.


This is the result of noise inherent in the cloth simulation. The only way to combat it I think is to increase the resolution of your meshes (slowing it way down) .

I'm still wondering why nurbs are being used here.

Someone mentioned a desire to have different sliding properties in different areas--this is quite simple in XSI; you can control cloth porperties with a weight map that can be painted on the vertices.

Someone else asked why cloth has to be used for this instead of deformers. The simple answer is that this is a way to provide the look of skin sliding over muscles and bones underneath it--deformers don't do this well.

oxyg3n
06-01-2004, 12:50 AM
Nice animation test

Annuostivix
06-01-2004, 01:33 AM
my only crit is your inability to compress video :D Great job otherwise, it's very professional aside from the computing times.

Okan
06-01-2004, 01:45 AM
hmms i like you model..looks very cool..

SilentRage
06-01-2004, 05:16 AM
Awesome work RIC.
I'm sure a lot of people less experienced people like me are wondering how you went about setting up this rig.
SO instead of bombarding you with PM, i thought i'd just ask that you make a tutorial or at least some kind of a overview discussing the setup. I think it would be immensely helpful and inspiring to all of us.

Thanks and keep it up!

Kris-S
06-01-2004, 06:24 AM
I've seen a similair setup done with Maya sculp deformers. creating nurbs bones and muscles turning them into sculped deformers and having them effect the highmesh skin. awsome resultsbut hell on calculation time. I would like to see a tutoral on how you did this. very interesting. Been working an a similair thing myself however yours is way more impressive.

Good work

Anubis
06-01-2004, 06:31 AM
Ric: First off WOW! YOU ARE THE MAN!

I have been working on a human muscular system for the past YEAR and have tried some of these cloth based solutions. A lot of people have told me that it is just not feasible (even people who work at Digital Domain etc)

From the time it took the sim to bake, I guess it isn't feasible in production.

I would like to talk to you about muscular rigs. Check out my site at www.ChrisEvans3D.com. I have posted a lot of my human muscular rigging there. I am working on trying to add skin to it in Maya as well, but looking for something a little more economical time wise.

RIC
06-01-2004, 06:40 AM
Thx for all your comments !!!
PixoPath : hehehe Thx man ! :beer:
Zegritch : :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Thx Pascal !!

See you !

el-vio
06-01-2004, 06:55 AM
ca tue rien a dire :)

GrafOrlok
06-01-2004, 09:03 AM
Beautiful work RIC! I tried to watch that movie yesterday, but it took to long to download so I tried again today. Looks fantastic.

We've been working with a similar method IN PRODUCTION. :rolleyes: But since we had to do it in production we went for a bit simpler method. We used polygons and had a copy of the geo as cloth object. Our subject was not humanoid, but a turtle, with very loose skin. We managed to have better solver times, around 6 minutes per 100 frames. Everything looked sweet and worked just fine. The cloth did exactly what I wanted it to, and wrinkles and sliding over muscles worked super during all tests.
However when animations started to appear we ran into trouble.
The skin still looked swell and with a few tweaks things worked fine without penetration and bad solves, but one big problem surfaced that we just couldn't get rid of. The surface was popping and vibrating. We managed to get it to work descent, but every now and then a vertex popped and over all there where a crawling motion over certain areas of the surface. This really became evident when the character moved very subtle and slow or came to a hold. We thought that since the character is heavy textured this would not really show. But it did. In fact the texture made it VERY evident.

I see that in a few instances your solver acts the same way especially under the "love handles" and at the middle of the chest when he rises his arms. And this seems to be a Maya-cloth problem. A dream would be if someone came up with a way to damp certain vertices movement or some average surface dampening. I've been through all of the dampenings and cutoffs in the properties but never got rid of them...

So we had to bin the whole skin simulation idea.:cry: We only use it to solve certain difficult deformations, since the cloth deforms better than ordinary skinning. We have to work shot by shot to get it look good...
/Staffan
Fido film

eek
06-01-2004, 10:17 AM
Very nice,

Looks very cool; ive been looking into this for a while now using LEMAN- (Layered Elastic Model ANimation). I did a test a while back, see if i can find it. I'll see if i can do a test in max then post it.

anyway nice work!

eek

http://ligwww.epfl.ch/Publications/pdf/Turner_Thalmann_CGI_93.pdf

NZO
06-01-2004, 02:21 PM
YYYEEAHH !! wonderfull my friend !
keap up the very great work !!
:applause:

UnlikelyCorny
06-01-2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by pur9e
Someone else asked why cloth has to be used for this instead of deformers. The simple answer is that this is a way to provide the look of skin sliding over muscles and bones underneath it--deformers don't do this well.
You might be refering to my post, I'm not sure. I asked why cloth in stead of softbodies. I'm working on a project which uses softbodies with nurbs-muscle-shapes as collision objects. This as well creates a 'skin slides over muscle' effect. From what I understand (I personally do not work with Maya Unlimited, so no cloth) cloth is much more complex to calculate. Therefore what would be a reason not to use softbodies.

Anyone?

Atwooki
06-01-2004, 02:45 PM
UnlikelyCorny:
Only reasonable answer to that would be 'Syflex' :)
Although that doesn't pre-clude the use of soft-bodies per-se :shrug:

Atwooki

UnlikelyCorny
06-01-2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Atwooki
UnlikelyCorny:
Only reasonable answer to that would be 'Syflex' :)
Although that doesn't pre-clude the use of soft-bodies per-se :shrug:
Atwooki

Thanks Atwooki for your reply, but I'm afraid you're going have to consider me a bit dumber here. I don't know what Syflex is (a plugg-in?, a musclulair state?). Dictionary.com does not know the word either. And coming from that the last sentence does not tell me much either. Sorry, could you please elaborate for me a bit. My brains are obviousely only small, but I'm eager to learn ;)

Atwooki
06-01-2004, 03:45 PM
UnlikelyCorny:
Oh, sorry about that :)

Check here: http://www.syflex.biz

It's a plugin for most major apps. and verrry fast.... ;)

Atwooki

loked
06-01-2004, 03:53 PM
I'm developing a skin system that is a deformer based solution. For now, I reckon it's the easiest and fastest way to get results. I've done a lot of work on producing muscle models and what not, so it can be tensed, maintain volume, etc Now I wanna a skinning solution that will work with it. Hopefully I can incorporate alot of things like skin sliding within this deformer. It obviously wont be as cool as a solver based skin system, but I'm no programming genius and I work at a really small studio.

This discussion is really cool, keep it up :)

later:wavey:
loked

CuTnPaste
06-01-2004, 04:00 PM
loked: hey ! cool !! is it possible to see some exampleS?

thank:applause:

UnlikelyCorny
06-01-2004, 04:09 PM
ok I get it now, it's a cloth plugg-in. (and an expensive an as such)

Brings me back to my original question (I'll try to put it down a clearly as I can):

What is the benefit of cloth skin affected by muscle shapes to a softbody skin affected by muscle shapes.

Both can have skin sliding over the objects.......

loked
06-01-2004, 04:13 PM
I've got a little playblast that I'll post later. Either tomorrow or tonight. Just got a job I gotta get finished or clients gonna kill me :(

later
loked

loked
06-01-2004, 04:18 PM
It's the same concept, it's like asking whats the difference between using cloth over soft bodies to make a flag wave. I just think all the developments that cloth simulators have make it easier to achieve cool results. They are both solver based solutions that work off very similar engines. Syflex is incredible though.

later
loked

ilovegraphics
06-01-2004, 04:27 PM
Wow, that's really interesting :D

Kaneda
06-01-2004, 04:30 PM
Very nice work... I suppose it took you a long time to have this result with muscles deformations.
I think the result is great on the shoulders deformations .It looks much more natural than all what a non mucular rig can do.
But the mucular deformation seems to be not enough exagerated for me. For example the biceps and triceps looks almost similar in relaxes or tenses positions. The same for the pectorals witch looks a little bit smalls but maybe this is due to your character design...
Try to exagerate muscles deformations in the extremes posings, it will add a lot to your model.
Ik chains seems to have some problems at the extremes posing. (Swivel angle ??).
But in three words : Très beau boulot !!
Continue Man !!

Visit my Battle angel 3D Character (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142554&highlight=gally)

jeroenven
06-01-2004, 04:46 PM
Verry nice model and muscle simulation. But i have a few suggestions for you: MPEG-4, Divx, Windows Media 9...
I guess you are a 3D-artist and not a video editor but cinepak must be the most outdated codec in the world...

eek
06-01-2004, 05:06 PM
loked,

can soft bodies simulate areas such as creases?, certainly with max flex and reactor cant do this. This the only reason i see to using cloth.Also i would imagine it must be implicit surface calculation rather than explicit. Maya uses a very robust (non artifact) implicit cloth system, and for things like this, does very well.

eek

pur9e
06-01-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Graf Orlok

I see that in a few instances your solver acts the same way especially under the "love handles" and at the middle of the chest when he rises his arms. And this seems to be a Maya-cloth problem. A dream would be if someone came up with a way to damp certain vertices movement or some average surface dampening. I've been through all of the dampenings and cutoffs in the properties but never got rid of them...

/Staffan
Fido film

Syflex does this, and relatively quickly. It is a $3000 plugin. But in a couple weeks (when xsi 4 is released--if it's ever released), you get it as a part of XSI Advanced. Suprised you haven't heard of it. I know all about this noise and popping you refer to--a heartbreaker. XSI cloth has teh same issues.

Silk
06-01-2004, 06:13 PM
AMAZING !! =) never seen something like this =)

Mojo
06-01-2004, 09:01 PM
Very impressive work so far! :thumbsup: Could you explain how you manage to transfer the movement / deformation of the muscles to the skin when not using the cloth-simulation? Do you still achieve skin sliding?

Cheers,
Mojo

galactor
06-01-2004, 09:14 PM
If working with softbodies, you would be able te decide wich part of the skin is more flexible then other parts.
Some guys where refering to this when they said that Maya Cloth is not able to apply local skin proporties.
Maybe there is a way to combine these two methods to get the ultimate skin setup ?

He hallo Corny, ik ben 't: Pepijn. Alles goed?

:: Galactor ::

stormtroopar
06-01-2004, 09:37 PM
First of all, great job. It still lacks some of the effects of real skin and many have already commented on the issue but shows great potential and overall looks very good.

I am working on something similar actually but with the idea that everything is near real time. So maya cloth is basically out of the picture. I am using a few other tricks to achieve this, but I have been considering using syflex cause of its speed. Having the skin slide properly and having to fake that fat tissue layer is still a big issue for me. But all the muscles works quite well and fast right now. One thing that is definitely great about a muscle setup is it does a great job of preserving volumes when deforming.

With regards to cloth vs soft body. Well, it takes A Lot of work to get softbody to behave properly like cloth so not to mention skin. A muscle system requires a lot of work underneeve to setup already and using a softbody skin will just increase the setup time that much more, not to mention that ultimately, your results will not be that nice. Its a fine line between looking good and looking real.

Btw, I do think you can set local properties with maya cloth. At least on some attributes, thats what the cloth paint tools are for. But even with that, in my experience with maya cloth, I would not use it to try to emulate skin. It will just have too much problem, not to mention its slow.

kiaran
06-01-2004, 09:51 PM
Just a question of logistics...

Is the simulated cloth then used as a wrap deformer to influence the underlying nurbs patches?

nottoshabi
06-01-2004, 10:09 PM
Nice work. :thumbsup: I would not use cloth for muscle deformations, thats just my opinion. In order for geometry to act like skin the geometry has to be turned into, or be made a elastic node that can take shape of objects under neath it. And be able to skin that to joints. Unfortunatly maya does not suport anything like that. We are working on something like that here but I can't disclose anything more than that at the moment.. I have tried soft body's, cloth, and deformers. The best I have found, was a mixture of softbodys and deformer. Thats what I used here Demon (www.finalestudios.com/manny)


Nice work :thumbsup:

MoD_Legion
06-01-2004, 10:14 PM
Wow RIC that looked very cool. I only have 1 question, how did u make the 'crusts' on the monsters shouders/head/chest? I'm making a Cave troll and was wondering if its better to model it or bump map it but your crusts look mega cool.

beaker
06-01-2004, 10:38 PM
Digital Domain used Syflex to do the skin on the Crocodile in the recent Peter Pan movie that came out around Christmas.

So methods like this are definatly being used in production. Syflex is just alot faster at solves then maya cloth because it takes alot or shortcuts that still look very close to what maya cloth produces but not quite as accuract. Since this is for entertainment and does not have to be scientificly correct, it works just fine.

kiaran
06-01-2004, 10:56 PM
Digital Domain used Syflex to do the skin on the Crocodile in the recent Peter Pan movie

I think this is a good indication of the need for Maya to have some sort of skin/muscle functionality in it's next version. I was really hoping for it in Maya 6, but no luck thus far :cry:

Using Syflex and Cloth seems like a sort of hack workaround.

beaker
06-01-2004, 11:08 PM
In my experience everything in film and tv is a hack workaround no matter what software you use whether it is 2d or 3d. So even if maya does get a muscle system your still going to make more hack work arounds to get it to work the way you want because they no one can make something that fits into every situation for every person. It makes no difference if its maya or xsi or houdini.

UnlikelyCorny
06-01-2004, 11:10 PM
I am working on something similar actually but with the idea that everything is near real time. So maya cloth is basically out of the picture.
As will be any other known method I assume.
You must either have a monster of a machine or the brain the size of the Hindenburg to come up with something that could achieve that real time. But I'm all ears of course.

Hé Pepijn alles kits, we dachten aan een kopenhagen borrel binnenkort ergens in Utrecht ofzo, geinteresseerd?

galactor
06-02-2004, 12:08 AM
A lot of companies have worked out their own skin deformation systems (Weta for example). The only downpoint is that they are not willing to shear it. Sound reasonable because a lot of research is done to get their skin systems working.

If i'm right they also worked together with ILM to create fluids for "The Perfect Storm". Well maybe they can work out a skin deformation system with them as well :)

I guess the first time i saw it was on "The Mummy" (or maybe even earlier). So it has been around for a long while.
Strange that none of the mayor 3d packages do not have a skin deformation system, since it is not a new technologie.
Maybe messiah has some nice features since it realy is a cool and renewing animation package.

Prima idee Corny, lijkt me wel wat !

:: Galactor ::

gago
06-02-2004, 01:22 AM
i've tried forever to see this movie but it doesnt work.. even when i download the codec...

is it so hard to just use a normal mpeg codec?

nice pictures :shrug:

Atwooki
06-02-2004, 03:33 AM
On the topic of 'Syflex', the new v. for Maya 6 has some very interesting new features, including a feature called 'mimics':

lovely to play with, and v. fast too :)

edit: sorry, a bit ahead of time:blush:

Atwooki

RIC
06-02-2004, 06:54 AM
Thx all for your comments ! they are very interesting !!!
MoD_Legion : i made the 'crusts' in paraform but you can do it more quicky with zbrush.
kiaran : yes :)
Nzo: Thanks my friend ! Adtaleur :beer:

See you !

stormtroopar
06-02-2004, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by kiaran
I think this is a good indication of the need for Maya to have some sort of skin/muscle functionality in it's next version. I was really hoping for it in Maya 6, but no luck thus far :cry:

Using Syflex and Cloth seems like a sort of hack workaround.

Well, if you think about the behavior of real skin, cloth does have a lot of similarities. The only thing is it can be tough to have control needed to do skin with a cloth solver. I think tippett's skin solver used in hellboy was based on cloth sim. Of course I do agree that a custom skin deformer / solver would be much better than doing it with a cloth sim, but its one of the closest thing we have commercially. I would be happy if maya had something like XSI/ soft's shrink wrap with a few extra controls.

I do agree that character skinning technology have not moved forward at all for the past few years. New tools have been created to enhance the workflow, but it has not changed at all for many years. The worst of all is the skinning plugin Bones Pro for Max, which I used 6 years ago allows for better workflow, quality and performance than Maya's current smooth bind (minus the influence objects though). I have already made a wishlist for a new skinning paradigm for maya at the maya feature list website

http://www.maya.digication.com/

If we all vote for it, there will be a higher chance for alias to implement it in the future. So if you guys want this to improve, please vote for it or add in other features you would like to see in the future.

eek
06-02-2004, 09:24 AM
One way i would do it, would to only use localized skin simulation, i.e around joints, belly, neck, face. Everything else could be basic skinning and deformation.


~edit
might stick this idea into my facial rig.

eek

GrafOrlok
06-02-2004, 11:51 AM
Syflex does this, and relatively quickly. It is a $3000 plugin.

Actually we contacted Syflex because of the similarities between cloth and Skin systems. And they where actually developing a skin system. But it was early on and they wheren't too happy about the results yet.

Syflex works a bit more stable than Maya Cloth, but with one HUGE dissadvantages. Syflex IS cloth and reacts like cloth and it we didn't manage to get rid of the clothy properties. It reacts very much to air and gravity. Maya cloth has some great advantages when it comes to manipulating the cloth. You can turn off air dampening completely and you also have a ton of more attributes than Syflex. Still it all comes down to stability, so if Syflex comes out with a skin simulation system, I'll be the first to knock on their door!
;)
/Staffan

michaelcomet
06-02-2004, 12:17 PM
FWIW I started a new thread about a plugin I am developing for Maya muscles here:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=146469

Still very much WIP though....

-comet

Mr BilOo
06-02-2004, 01:10 PM
:cry: :cry: aouchh very impressive work :beer:

c'est un truc de dingue comme tu sais si bien les faire!!!

chapo une fois de plus !!!!

ça tue

see you

RichSuchy
06-02-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Atwooki
Really impressive Ric!
Shame the solving is so damn slow tho' :cry:
Nice to get a decent disp. map in there as well :thumbsup:

JFFORTIN:
I was interested that you're using 'Syflex' to generate a muscle-system, which I am attempting also; by all accounts, this should work a little quicker than Maya Cloth.... please check your PM shortly :)

Atwooki

Another trick may be to record the deformations and play them back based on the the bone rotation angles. That way you only have to create sets of data for each joint once. THEN you can use it in production.

maliksoy
06-02-2004, 04:39 PM
Your work is spectacular, where are you from?.. we have a 3d maya school in Spain and we´re contact with talent people.


best regards.

ivankio
06-02-2004, 05:15 PM
RIC, great idea, great results, even good solution time. Please share your cloth's properties, if you will.

RIC
06-02-2004, 07:29 PM
hehehe thx Mister Biloo !!!! A la prochaine !!:beer:
maliksoy : thanks man ! I m french.
ivankio : thx !
Take care !
:wavey:

CrummeR
06-02-2004, 07:32 PM
wow! I am really impressed. How did you get Maya cloth to work so well? It always explodes whenever I try to use it.

RichSuchy
06-02-2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by CrummeR
wow! I am really impressed. How did you get Maya cloth to work so well? It always explodes whenever I try to use it.

Usually I get problems when I allow my colision objects to interpenetrate. The problem generally takes the form of trapped cloth vertices, and instability of the solution. Are you not having that problem RIC?

MaRvI
06-02-2004, 07:43 PM
If I may post a few pointers on the anatomy,

he hasn't got a Rectus Amdomnius, wich would attatch at the bottom of the lowest ribs ( altleast if the visible ribs are the lowest ;) ), if he hasn't got a muscle like that then I wouldn't be able to bend forward like in the animation, and contracting that musclue would bulge the belly more forward.

The Deltaloidius is maybe a bit to small for a creature his size

and the Pectoralis Major could be a bit bigger in the way that you could attach it on the lowest parts around the middle bone on wich the ribs connect ( sternum ). This would give the impression of more strength.

Also to retract the arms like he does in the animation he would need a few muscles wich I can't see, or arn't there.
Other muscles that I miss would be one that goes from the lowest point on the ( what's the english name %^&%^) scapula ( schoulderblade ? :S to the ribs under the armpit and then in a straight line down to his hip.

Well to be honest this creature would technicaly not be able to move like this ;) ... But it's a bloody impressive sight non the less... I truly love it and I would really love to see one that has all the details that a living one would have.

RIC
06-02-2004, 08:02 PM
Rich Suchy/CrummeR : yes I have already had this problem of interpenetration, then I put the muscles in softbodies with hard goal and I made them collide together for prevent that the cloth will not wedged between the muscles. I hope that my english is not too confusing ... :blush:

See you !
:wavey:

RichSuchy
06-02-2004, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by RIC
Rich Suchy/CrummeR : yes I have already had this problem of interpenetration, then I put the muscles in softbodies with hard goal and I made them collide together for prevent that the cloth will not wedged between the muscles. I hope that my english is not too confusing ... :blush:

See you !
:wavey:

ok, I had assumed you would have used blend shapes with the muscles, and rigged them to bones.

I don't have much familiarity with Maya's soft bodies. I guess I'll have to look into those.

It appears from the image you posted that there is interpenetration?

Am I looking at the right thing?

Rich

RichSuchy
06-02-2004, 09:46 PM
double post oops

RIC
06-02-2004, 09:52 PM
Yes i used collision between muscles only on the one which caused cloth crash. In fact only on the muscles under the shoulder.
See You !

RichSuchy
06-02-2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by RIC
Yes i used collision between muscles only on the one which caused cloth crash. In fact only on the muscles under the shoulder.
See You !

Thanks, It may be possible to do a simplified collision model, with reduced risk of colision for each section, torso, arm1 upper, arm1 lower, etc. This would simplify making blend shapes and reduce colidable surfaces, and increase cloth sim times.

I Think I've got my next test set. Too bad ACTs GUI isn't ready yet for Maya.

Rich

eek
06-03-2004, 09:10 AM
Rich,

Blend shape muscle deformation would be an ideal solution to soft bodies. I think in hulk they used this, but had two skin types 1 skinned to the muscles and a second which slid over this layer.


eek

UnlikelyCorny
06-03-2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by eek
but had two skin types 1 skinned to the muscles and a second which slid over this layer.

seems like a smart and simpel solution

RichSuchy
06-03-2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by eek
Rich,

Blend shape muscle deformation would be an ideal solution to soft bodies. I think in hulk they used this, but had two skin types 1 skinned to the muscles and a second which slid over this layer.


eek

interesting. But if you would have to do blendshapes on the muscles themselves, perhaps two skins is just added work. Im going to attempt to make colision bodies that are the best of both, in one. then use cloth over that. That way I have, esentually, the layer skinned to the muscles without carrying the weight of the muscles around.

Rich

eek
06-03-2004, 03:14 PM
so basically "softbody blendshape muscles" with a skin layer over the top. Rich this sounds like a good idea, the LEMAN approach i think uses this. If i have some more info/ideas i'll post them.

eek

RichSuchy
06-03-2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by eek
so basically "softbody blendshape muscles" with a skin layer over the top. Rich this sounds like a good idea, the LEMAN approach i think uses this. If i have some more info/ideas i'll post them.

eek

Thanks. I havnt used softbodies, but I'll have to look into it. I just figured I would make good use of set driven key on the pseudo muscles for things I know will happen (fix bad bone deformation, and compression of intersecting areas such as in joints, and the upper arm with the torso), then hand key blendshapes for such diferences as muscles pushing, and muscles pulling ...or basically flex and relax shapes.

I dont think there are automatic solutions that dont just add complication.

eek
06-03-2004, 04:56 PM
yep, exaclty. The ability to tweak the muscles to fix problems i.e intersection, tearing etc etc via blendshapes is crucial. Also it means you can take artistic licence, so stuff looks realistic, but may not be anatomically correct. Im using max atm, but if i get time ill look into this with maya also.

Things like fat is an interesting issue. The difference between the top skin layer and the bone. Hellboy used an offset for this so there was a delay, between the muscle and the skin reaction to it. Also they used a clever technique of firing of the muscle/skin simulation a few frames before joint rotation. As in reality muscles pull/push joints.

Also, key defineable areas are perfect for blendshapes as they either pull or push e.g bicep(the skin doesnt need to wrinkle) Where as other areas between muscle/bone can use just standard skin sim e.g area between thumb and index finger.

eek

RichSuchy
06-03-2004, 05:28 PM
Does skin sim work well for the flap between thumb and forefinger?

I imagined I would just have create some blends for those because of the peculiarities of the folding skin when the thumb is lifted and dropped and the stretching of the skin as it is rotated outward.

RIC
06-03-2004, 09:28 PM
Sorry for the dead link, I have some trouble with my provider .....
:rolleyes:

See You :wavey:

eek
06-04-2004, 10:43 AM
Does skin sim work well for the flap between thumb and forefinger? I imagined I would just have create some blends for those because of the peculiarities of the folding skin when the thumb is lifted and dropped and the stretching of the skin as it is rotated outward.

True, But i thought you would use the blend shape muscles for just key parts, i mean actual muscles. But actually your right, for key areas of creasing such as thumb/index finger you could have a set called e.g crease shapes. The skin layer over the top could only need to hand minor creases and wrinkles.

What would be really cool would be some clever link between the muscle shapes and the crease shape. So .eg the crease shape would squish between the muscle shapes, and then the skin on top.

eek

RichSuchy
06-04-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by eek
True, But i thought you would use the blend shape muscles for just key parts, i mean actual muscles. But actually your right, for key areas of creasing such as thumb/index finger you could have a set called e.g crease shapes. The skin layer over the top could only need to hand minor creases and wrinkles.

What would be really cool would be some clever link between the muscle shapes and the crease shape. So .eg the crease shape would squish between the muscle shapes, and then the skin on top.

eek

I figure the hand is kind of like the face... You want to be more specific with it. You need more direct control of the final outcome of the shape (and can always make intermediate shapes on a needs only basis)

I've been doing alot of drawing from nude models lately and there are just so many fleshy creases that form on a body in motion (well toned or not) That "muscle only" solutions wont properly address. Like when a midsection bends and twists. Each direction of twist gets a diferent s-curve line of fold....

Maybe this is better for another area of discussion? :)

I dont want to abscond with this thread.

Rich

tomaya
06-08-2004, 12:16 PM
Super Mortel Ric ! Bravo :thumbsup:

chinamaxer
06-08-2004, 01:40 PM
great!and i wanna know how u create the texture?

RIC
06-08-2004, 07:08 PM
Tomaya : Merci Thomas !! :beer:
chinamaxer : thx ! The displace map was extract from a very high def model ( 6 millions faces for the half of the monster ) made in paraform, there is no paint map on this creature.

Sorry for my bad english ..... :blush:

Take care ! :wavey:

Landis
06-11-2004, 09:01 PM
You guys are going to have to pardon my ignorance but I absolutley HAVE to get in on this. First off, RIC, great job. Those render times dont seem that bad for use in an animated SHORT short like the ones I plan to crank out here at the Academy....other than that a commercial or full scene production shot would probably be unacceptable I guess but who knows...however, 5 minutes a frame aint too bad in my oppinion. I am coming from the Blender community and if I ever wanted to generate some nice radioisity renders or GI shots than I was going to have to wait. MAYA has a bit of a strong hold here in my oppinion (MentalRay's speed /quality ratio).

Ok, anyways, enough tangents, back on track...on with the questions!!

1. I was doing a little research and was wondering what the flaws would be of using, ofcourse, a Soft Bind in conjunction with:

a) Sculpt deformers applied with the "Stretch" option

...as opposed to using...

b) an underlying "muscle" mesh with a surface influence applied?


2. Can a sculpt deformer be shaped into something other than a sphere or is the user expected to place these tiny spheres accordingly to achieve the look of the applicable muscle mass?


3. I start this question out with a quote...

Originally posted by Rich Suchy
I've been doing alot of drawing from nude models lately and there are just so many fleshy creases that form on a body in motion (well toned or not) That "muscle only" solutions wont properly address. Like when a midsection bends and twists. Each direction of twist gets a diferent s-curve line of fold....

Couldnt you just use influnce curves (more control) or even wire/wrinkle deformers (less control) here? Again I am new to MAYA and am not aware of the various limitations brought about from the many features so please, by all means...enlighten me!! LOL!!

In case you havent noticed I plan to use a setup like this for atleast one of my assignments and cannot afford SYFLEX (even at the student costs) so I am covering my bases of what MAYA has to offer. Also, I will be posting ALL of my steps upon completeion of the project regarding whatever decision I decide to make and how it was all achieved. If you know me from other posts such as the AIRMAN project then you will know that I am not kidding...LOL! Its crazy...there really isnt that much information available on this subject....I only found it in ONE of the MANY Maya books on the bookshelves...but then again this is a bit of an advanced subject and could easily be sold for big bucks on a training DVD...I am sure that this is the case.

Anyways, thanks ahead of time guys. Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Landis

RichSuchy
06-11-2004, 09:52 PM
Landis Wrote...

Couldnt you just use influnce curves (more control) or even wire/wrinkle deformers (less control) here? Again I am new to MAYA and am not aware of the various limitations brought about from the many features so please, by all means...enlighten me!! LOL!!


its a matter of taste. I prefer exacting control. I want to automate changes and know what my results will be absolutely.

Rich

eek
06-12-2004, 07:28 PM
Landis Wrote...
Couldnt you just use influnce curves (more control) or even wire/wrinkle deformers (less control) here? Again I am new to MAYA and am not aware of the various limitations brought about from the many features so please, by all means...enlighten me!! LOL!!

I use this approach in my facial setup. But as Rich say you need the ability to tweak, on the fly. The main key problems to solve are not muscles, but are the sliding properties and wrinkles/creases.

Sliding first off could be simulated, either procedurally, cloth sim, deformers, vertex movement even bones. Keys areas of sliding is how much it slides. How the fat is controlled and how it controls the skin.

Wrinkling/creasing is difficult. Tweakablilty is key as your gunna get problems. If your gunna use creases like blendshapes your gunna have to be very careful as you dont want them all looking the same, so Rich's got a good idea using them in conjuntion with softbodies. Also your can only use so many of these crease shapes, as if you gunna simulate all the creases of the body your gunna have to make hundreds!.

Simulation of creases is difficult to as you get numerous artifacts, so you have to be sparing on these, also to simulate and entire skin will use massive computing power!.

IMO, you want a setup like this: build the skeleton-add muscle blendshapes(ldriven by bones)-dynamically link the softbody blendshape creases/wrinkles in key areas ie, joints(driven by both bones and muscle blends)-add skin on top, with sliding properties and little creaseability.

Then add a script that drives the muscle/creases about 2-5 frames before the joints move i.e real world.(hell boy setup)
-->muscles drive joints.

Skin over the top needs some clever properties, slidability, stifness, bone to fat and vise versa.


eek

Landis
06-12-2004, 10:24 PM
eek,

Excellent explanation. Thank you very much for the info. I assure you your post will not go to waste.


Rich,

Thanks and good luck with your project.


Cheers,
Landis

UnlikelyCorny
06-13-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by eek [B]...add muscle blendshapes(ldriven by bones)-dynamically link the softbody blendshape creases/wrinkles in key areas ie, joints(driven by both bones and muscle blends)
Sorry I'm a bit lost here, muscleblendshapes driven by bones - I assume you mean that the angle of a bone determines the value of the blendshape?

joints(driven by both bones and muscle blends) - sorry stared at it for a while and tried to compriand, but I'm sorry to say, can't figure it out. Not your fault, my brain is only small, but please explain a bit more?

moonwalker
06-14-2004, 02:25 AM
i like the idea of using the cloth as skin
wonderfull

rem07
06-14-2004, 11:40 AM
bon, moi RIC j'suis chaud pour l'Angleterre bordel de merde hihi
A plus tard mec!

RIC
06-14-2004, 10:01 PM
rem07 : Hahahaha , ouais va falloir qu on aille faire un pitit tour a Londres pour voire :) Bon et vous passez quand vous voulez .... enfin comme d hab quoi :)
Moonwalker : thanks man !
Take care !

eek
06-14-2004, 10:59 PM
Sorry I'm a bit lost here, muscleblendshapes driven by bones - I assume you mean that the angle of a bone determines the value of the blendshape?

yes, drive the muscles via joint rotation. Then drive the crease shapes via the muscles shapes and a bit of the joint. So eg:

at 45 degree of joint A muscle 1 goes to 50%, then at 75% of muscle 1,crease shape goes to 50%.

then make it start 5 frames before the joint.

So eg:
the muscle bulges slighty before the joint, then the joint rotates, the muscles bulges, which at 50% trigger the crease shape to start.

(muscle-joint rotation-muscle-crease)over skin

The joint isnt driven, the animator still rotates it. But the blendshape when say played back starts slightly before like in real life. You have to do some clever mel script or something. Ill have a go at this in max.

Reading more on the hulk. I relised they mad hundreds of different hulk poses which blended together!. All the major joints!. They had to model 42 different models just for his shoulders! eek!

They drove the pose via joint, but used the hieght and spin of a joint. I suppose like an offset, and not a rotation?

eek

RichSuchy
06-14-2004, 11:31 PM
If you automate muscle bulges, be sure to add states, such as whether the joint is pulling or pushing. You can then animate one curve for each joint. You could just leave the animation of the muscles up to the animator, for complete control. Sometimes an animator might want it to shiver, or not always exert the same force... Muscles dont flex the same to lift a bolling ball as they do for a feather. I would leave the flex animation less automatic, but attach corrective joint deformation blendshapes to the bone angles.

Originally posted by eek
yes, drive the muscles via joint rotation. Then drive the crease shapes via the muscles shapes and a bit of the joint. So eg:

at 45 degree of joint A muscle 1 goes to 50%, then at 75% of muscle 1,crease shape goes to 50%.

then make it start 5 frames before the joint.

So eg:
the muscle bulges slighty before the joint, then the joint rotates, the muscles bulges, which at 50% trigger the crease shape to start.

(muscle-joint rotation-muscle-crease)over skin

The joint isnt driven, the animator still rotates it. But the blendshape when say played back starts slightly before like in real life. You have to do some clever mel script or something. Ill have a go at this in max.

Reading more on the hulk. I relised they mad hundreds of different hulk poses which blended together!. All the major joints!. They had to model 42 different models just for his shoulders! eek!

They drove the pose via joint, but used the hieght and spin of a joint. I suppose like an offset, and not a rotation?

eek

eek
06-15-2004, 09:19 AM
good point didnt think of that. You dont want the muscles bulging all the time ,but you do want the creases to be formed. You also dont want it to be too complex for the animator. There animating all the movement and now there doing the muscles! A nice simple gui would be cool, that handles say the arms, chest,legs,neck, with a little fall to other areas. So that you can tence up the neck or something.

or maybe two general state for the muscle, so its still automated but the animator,can blend between the muscle strength: slightly on for general purpose or max for when the tenced up. I just think tweaking all the muscles is a lot of work for the animator.

ill try this out in max.

eek

trikerider
06-22-2004, 05:32 PM
RIC,

I'm the senior project manager for a project at the University of Iowa (USA) that is involved in human motion simulation. We are struggling with the visualization of complex shoulder movements.

I'd be very interested in talking to you if you have the time and inclination.

Feel free to contact me at your convenience.

Steven C. Beck
Senior Project Manager
Virtual Soldier Research program
Center for Computer Aided Design
The University of Iowa
Tel. 319-384-0573
Fax. 319-384-0542
Email. beck@ccad.uiowa.edu
http://www.digital-humans.org (http://www.digital-humans.org/)

damesqlo
07-15-2004, 12:01 AM
Hi.. Ric.. I would like to see the video.. the model looks interesting, but the link seems to be dead.. can you fix it? please

Thanks

djordje
07-15-2004, 12:43 AM
aloha!

take a look at this, I think loked didn't announced it here


http://cgmuscle.com/

mimawoai
07-18-2004, 04:29 PM
these is no pic.

RIC
08-22-2004, 10:43 AM
Back online

loked
08-22-2004, 04:46 PM
Hey,

Sorry I did forget to announce it here. Please if anybody here can help out or give input please do.

Thanks ;)

later:wavey:
Judd (loked)

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01-18-2006, 09:00 AM
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