Why is this a critique board?

[jeroentje]

Well, it has to have some name... This one is fine with me :shrug:

And besides, if someone says why he doesn't like certain things, you can see your work through someone elses eyes, learn from it or don't. It's better then to work to fill your HD... What's wrong with feedback?

[VShane]

I agree it is difficult to critique just for those reasons. BUT, if someone were to say..."I want to get into the RPG Game industry doing interior or cover illustrations" then I would be able to help critique based on a set standard that is acceptable in that Genre.

Alot of the problems with potential critiques is no one (the posting artist) indicates his destination with the work, ala industry.

[balistic]

Speak for yourself.

I've given constructive critique here. I've received it.

"Even if you say, "make the arms longer, or thicker", they probably would have done it to start with if they wanted it that way."

Your argument is bunk.

You operate under the assumption that everyone who draws or paints has full comprehension of what they're doing. They don't. If one doesn't flip one's work horizontally as they go, one has no idea of what their drawing really looks like.

90% of becoming a good artist is learning to spot your own mistakes. Until you reach that level, you are not in complete control of your own work, and you can benefit from the kind of comments mentioned above.

There's a big difference between skewing anatomy intentionally and doing it because you have no idea how muscles work.

[balistic]

I also want to address the "everyone has their own style" assertion.

Style is a gimmick.

A personal style is what develops when an artist starts using a comfortable forumla. Its a way of not having to think so much.

Personal style is artistic cancer , it will eat you alive. If you only draw in a comic style, teach yourself realism. If you only do realistic work, spend some time developing good cartoon characters. Understand the reasoning behind style, and you will excell as an artist.

I can confidently say that I can work in any style that a particular project or piece of art demands. And I can say that because I've spent my entire artistic career avoiding the disease called "personal style."

Its time to worry when people start talking about "loving your style" . . .

[Totitch]

I agree with you balistic but i think you are maybe too sure of you when you think you are able to work in any style that a particular project or piece of art demands...

I like a lot of style too! but I'm certain you can excel in a "style" only if you work on it since a long time!
For exemple...try to take the Spumko (Or Dexter's lab,...,...) style and creat your own character...you will see it's not as simple as you think!

it will be "like" but not really in the "Style"...A style is realy hard to copy and to understand! it's a point of view!

however,i agree with you when you say it's important to work on different "style" and don't us Drawing-tips...Each sketch need to be well-thought!

To answer Neil...i think this board is really cool because it inspire us a lot and give us different points of view...maybe not enough critics...it will probably change after this thread! ;)

[|nf|n|ty]

you are damn right balistic:buttrock: :buttrock: :applause: :buttrock:

[alchoi]

I love feedback ... check out what happened when I got some critiques ...


http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=12314

[Neil]

If someone is drawing something and not using any reference pictures, then they are naturally drawing from their own 'style'. So yes, everyone has their own. The problem is that too many people just copy the pose of another picture and just change the clothes on them.

And being good at a certain style is NOT cancer! If i/someone only does comics and they are damn good at them, then i totally disagree that they should try doing realism. IF they have the time and want to experiment, then they can. They shouldn't have to, just so they can claim diversity. People who get hired to do comic inking, do just inking, and vice-versa for painters...etc. Picasso isn't gonna be asked to do a set design, b/c there are other people out there that are 100% dedicated to that, that would do it much better.

Totich - It would be nice if it changed, but i won't get my hopes up too high.

[puddlefish]

Who really gives a crap?
When it comes down to it, it's a public forum. Post what you want, and critique what you want.
By your rational, Neil, we should all just work in a void and abandon all sense of community.
If you don't like the game don't play.

[jeroentje]

Originally posted by Neil
...And being good at a certain style is NOT cancer!
No it's not. It's just very limited. Only trying different things gives you the chance to develop that own certain style. And being able to do different styles, will give you the opportunity to make a better living with it. Certainly in a not so big country where you can not live of one style, because it gets recognized very quick and people (or clients) wil become bored with it sooner or later.

Originally posted by Neil
People who get hired to do comic inking, do just inking, and vice-versa for painters...etc.
Maybe that is how the Americain Comic Industry works. Not in Europe though... and thank God for it. Would be very boring work IMHO...

jeroentje

[alchoi]

Hmmm, I dunno Neil ...

Some of the greatest comicbook artists in history demonstrate an interesting diversity ...

Did you know that Simon Bisley, Frank Miller, and Terada Katsua (of Japan) are all buddies? They all go on these cool art sabbaticals either in Japan or in the States and influence each other ... and you can see the styles show through in each others' artwork ....

Did you know that the anime style is actually a rip of Disney? Osamu Tezuka, considered to be the godfather of japanese animation, created that wide-eyed anime look from an extreme fondness and love of Walt Disney's work ... and Glen Keane in turn said that a lot of his Aladdin designs were influenced by japanese anime (so it's kinda come full circle, which I think is cool).

As well ... Picasso may have been a brilliant abstract artist, but his life studies (realism, I guess) are just phenomenal ... I would ask Picasso to do a set design for me .... check out his earlier works when he was compared to Degas ..... it's cool shit ...

I have my own style ... but I started off as a kid copying poses out of comicbooks and learning from that ....

Eventually, after a long hard road of studying art, my own style started to squeeze through ... but every so often, I try to break my own style, because experimentation is the life's essence of being an artist .... art is a fluid thing ... and then when I come back to it .... I find my own style enhances somewhat ... and even Raphael, DaVinci, and the great masters used references religiously ...

As far as the board is concerned ... I have had equal parts compliments and harsh critiques ... one has helped my confidence, the other has helped my technical ... we are all colleagues working in the same industry, no matter what level, so if we can't show each other our work (critiques or otherwise), who can we show our stuff too? We have verying different levels of ability on this board, and therefore, varying different levels of critique ... some crits are technical (perspective, proportion, colour theory) ... other critiques are personal (arms too long, too much like a doodle)

Maybe you're unhappy with the type of critique, or quality of critique?

Personally ... I love it when collaborations such as the "Need a 2D brainiac" thread occurs ... no critiques happening there, but an awesome coming together of like minded artists ...

Don't be dissatisfied with posters "showing off" or critiques being lame, because eventually, some new dude will come on who you can totally relate to, who WILL start to critique your stuff and you'll get this awesome dialogue going ....

To this day, I have the uptmost respect for Balistic, Hawkprey, Art7sayan, Totich, Itchi, Sangotten, jeroentje ... shit, that Andytoons guy ... and a bunch of other dudes. Hell, I even played with the way Art7sayan draws noses and mouths 'cause I dug it so much ... I wanted to play with that style a bit ...

Anyway ... I hope this doesn't turn into a huge argument, but I sense a storm coming on, which is too bad ... but I've said my thing ... it's all art and we're all artists man ... and we experiment, and play with styles and are influenced by everything around us in our struggle to capture the world through our own visual dialogue.

And because this is an art forum, here's what I'm currently working on for a short film ....

(For those of you who see the technical error, I know, I know ... I didn't spot it until halfway through clean-up ... but I figured it out ... she's sitting on bleachers!! Heheheheh ;))

[alchoi]

Woah ... sorry puddlefish ... forgot to include you in the list of all the dudes I highly respect ...

;)

[alchoi]

Damn ... and that eatpoo.com guy ... holy shit ...

I can't believe I forgot to mention him ....

What a phenomenal artist ....

[alchoi]

... polykarbon.com guy .... and ....

[Neil]

Nice long response, thanks. But my initial point is that there should be a distinction between a critique and a show-off. Way too many threads are just, "hey check out what i did last night, doesn't it rock?"

I will admit that ever so often a guy/girl will come on and say, "i need some help making this guy look tougher". Those are asking for a CRITIQUE, and will lead to learning for everyone. So i'm saying that if you're not asking specifically for suggestions or help, then there should be another thread for the people that are only using it as bragging rights. There are tons of other sites on the web that are simply tiled pictures for that purpose.

Wacom_Knight - You made a good point, i agree with that.

Puddle - Not even gonna acknowledge a response to that...

[Cgkoko]

:shrug: well...have fun with that thread that probably is going to reach 10 pages.I have to say just that:I consider someone to be a good 2d artist by his knowledge of academic drawing,anatomy composition and color in the classic way.After having a strong grasp of all theese, personal style is something that is going to come anyway, after a lot of work.Doesn't really mater if it's cartoon or realistic or anything....Knowledge of the basics will make you good any path you choose!I thing that nowdays that aplied arts are evolving a wide range of styles is something important for an artist to have.I just don't like people who 'draw manga' just by looking or tracing images from the net, without having any previus knowledge of austhetics.Another thing that is important, is to study history of art.That really helps someone to shape his personal style.

well....that's what i have to say for now

[Cgkoko]

Neil : Everyone, even the most known artists, is looking for bragging.

[balistic]

Originally posted by Totitch
I agree with you balistic but i think you are maybe too sure of you when you think you are able to work in any style that a particular project or piece of art demands...


Well I've done everything from photorealism to impressionism to expressionism to iconographic comic and cartoon stuff . . . I suppose if you threw me something like cubism, I'd have to spend some time wrapping my head around it (no pun intended) . . . I've never done a cubist piece. Maybe I'll try one when I've got some free time.

But my point was that if you understand form, lighting, color, and composition, you can adapt yourself to any rendering style . . . "style" is just the way an idea is transferred to the media by the artist. In my opinion, all the style in the world can't make up for a half-baked idea.

As Major Kusanagi said in Ghost in the Shell, and as three billion years of evolution has proven, "Over-specialize, and you breed in weakness."

And regarding the cancer comment, its just hyperbole. Overstatement for the purpose of emphasis.

[alchoi]

Well, I'm glad you read my long-winded shit Neil ...

That's cool ...

Personally, I think it's okay to have bragging rights posts and critiques in the same section .... I know I post things proudly ... but I'm still open to critiques from all you guys ... and yeah, it brings me down when someone spots something technically wrong in my drawings ... I want everyone to say, "You're f*&#$ing amazing!! You rock!!" and crap like that ... who doesn't? Makes you feel good ... but at the same time, I've learned to take criticism with humility ... even if it DOES involve hours of power-pouting .... heheheh ...

My girlfriend, June_the_Evil says this about crits ... when people point stuff out to her, she thinks, "No ... they're wrong ... they don't know what they're talking about." ... then she quietly goes off and makes the changes to tweak her drawing ... LOL ...

Maybe what you're after is a "How to ..." section ... I think that would be cool ... you know, "How to draw good hands" ... "Colour theory advice" ... that kind of thing ....

I just want you to see how beneficial this forum is, because you have a lot of art skills, and they'll grow if you bounce them around this forum ... like I said, art is a fluid thing and highfly emotional, and to try and compartmentalize it into separate sections in the forum will be like trying to cage a tiger ...

Anyway ... I'm glad you read my reply ...

Cheers ...

(Below, an old production sketch from Ed, Edd and Eddy that sums up what happens when I get some harsh crits)

[alchoi]

... forgot to mention Cgkoko in the list of dudes who's feedback I value and respect ...

[jeroentje]

...and Koryh, Kirt, Sleepless... ;)

[alchoi]

Heheheheh ...

[puddlefish]

Originally posted by Neil
Puddle - Not even gonna acknowledge a response to that...

Well you just did. :p

I'm not trying to be smart, but I just don't understand why this bothers you or why it's even being discussed.

If people want to post an image that they're 100% happy with and have no intention of changing, then fair enough. In fact, I'm glad or it, because there's a chance it will inspire me or open my eyes to a new approach or technique. I don't call this showing off, I consider it sharing with the community.

I don't see the sense of seperating this type of post and one actively seeking critiques. Even if someone is happy with a piece and I see something which might improve it, I'll let them know. As long as this is done in a clear and amiable manner, no one's going to get unnecessarily insulted.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see anything wrong with someone being proud of their work and wanting to share it. I don't see why you have to label them 'show offs' and seperate them.

[Kirt]

Well, I think this board actually serves two purposes and anyone who's been reading it for more than a month will probably realize this.

First, it is a bragging place ... nothing wrong with that. Most of the artists I have met need a place or someone to brag too. Art isn't something that is entended to be put away in a closet somewhere when completed. The artist creates in order to share his/her ideas with the masses. So to expect anything other here is just silly. This forum serves as a virtual museum for artists from all over the globe and of various skill levels to showcase their latest work.

Second, it is a learning center. There are critiques (damn good ones too) and there are exchanges of ideas among many artists. The coop threads are a good example of one artist helping another improve his/her work. If the artists here were only bragging and trashing I don't think you'd find that this community would be as large as it currently is. What attracted me here was the professional attitudes, willingness to help, and diversified (spelling again?) skills/talents of the artists.

A lot of us are students, some professionals and maybe a few just lurking because we couldn't draw a stick figure if we traced it. Reguardless, I (as an artist) value each opinion equally. Because in the end, my work shouldn't appeal to only the pros ... I want my work to be appealing to the masses (which includes that select few who have to trace a stick figure). So, if anyone has an opinion about what I've done ... even if I think it's flawless (yeah right, that's never happened) ... I'm going to listen and learn.

Just my $0.02

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