Lattice Deformation Plug-In?

[Hellbring]

flay has a few plugins, though I dont think any are TRUE lattice cages.

D-Lattice and Bone Lattice are what i found when searching.

[LittleFenris]

Stupid question here...what exactly is a "lattice deformation" anyways?

[Per-Anders]

FFD (Free form deformation)/Lattice, basically it's a control cage for deforming an object/area of an object/selection based on the control cages points.

[LittleFenris]

Originally posted by mdme_sadie
FFD (Free form deformation)/Lattice, basically it's a control cage for deforming an object/area of an object/selection based on the control cages points.

I thought thats what it might be, thanks for the explanation. :thumbsup:

[SplineGod]

Animatty,
Theres not native FFD in LW but there are ways to get the same effect. It really depends on what you need to accomplish. :)

DStorm had a lattice deformation plugin for LW5.6 but it doesnt work in 7.5.

[richcz3]

Isn't Spline Guide in modeler a pretty good example of that or at least similar ?

Modify > Stretch > Spline Guide in 7.5

Transform > More > Spline Guide in 8.0

richcz3

[chikega]

Originally posted by richcz3
Isn't Spline Guide in modeler a pretty good example of that or at least similar ?

Modify > Stretch > Spline Guide in 7.5

Transform > More > Spline Guide in 8.0

richcz3

Yes, but think of cubic grid array of splines - you place this around an object - say a cartoony eye, and pull the points to deform the eye. This has been around for quite a while in the 3d world to get deformations - squash/stretch effects. :)

[Tudor]

The rest of the 3d world does not have the great dynamic bones that LW has.

But there is a way of doing lattices nativly in LW8. A workaround ofcourse.
FX metalink.
Parent the object to be deformed by that lattice to the lattice object. Deform the lattice object in any way you see fit. Bones, morphs, bend deformers etc.
Now apply softFX to the lattice. Turn all operators off on it.
Now apply FX metalink to the child object, and calculate. Done.
Not realtime though, but it works nicely. I drive high poly characters with a low poly standing with this method.
You can also add MD scan to the deformed object, and save the motion for really fast deformation.

[SplineGod]

I was going to suggest the same trick but I he said theyre using 7.5. Somebody might be able to create a cube made of bones that are using a muscle bone type setup. THat should come close. :)

[Tudor]

7.5 has MD scan and MD plug. Set up MD scan to save to a file, and MD metaplug to read the same file. A quick click on md scan saves, and a quick click on md metaplug loads.. One step more, but it works.

[SplineGod]

True, I use mdscan alot but Im not sure how fun it would be since you wouldnt have the instant feedback of a true FFD plugin. :)

[mav3rick]

i hope there will be some smart japanees heads that will make somethin like latice deformer( newtek done spline transform plugin that have nodes(not null objects) that could be easly modifyed to latice cage instead spline

[SplineGod]

The spline deformer in layout leaves a lot to be desired compared to shift spline transform or even bezier bend. What is interestng is that DStorm had a deformation lattice plugin for LW5.6. Its still up on their site but doesnt work with newer versions of LW. :shrug:

[mav3rick]

splinegod yea that is true... i was thinkin not lot ppl have need for adding EXPRESSIONS to lattice cages nodes(nulls).... so they usually move points by hand if they need some deform of object... so in that case we could use nodes (tool) instead need for NULL OBJECTS that could mess up scene if too much control nulls are used for cage... that is why i tough if any1 could do LW SPLINE deformer kinda NODES but to be applied to CAGE instead SPLINE so you control nodes of cage to deform object.....
and when we discuss on spline transofrm of LW 7.x/8 yes that is true.
this is latest commercial i am animating and i had to use FI BEZIER BEND
http://www.lightwavers.com/mavtest/splineanim.avi
the idea what i have to do here is ... i started with shift spline transfor due it easyer setup process .. once i finished setup i tryed functions
everything was FINE but when i applied MORPHS to object .... it didnt work :( so i had to move over FI BEZIER BEND to make it work properly... but than u know i need make object face +z etc.... so everythin is gone different... i didnt have visual representation of SPLINE In bezier bend so i though of other idea. i used SHIFT SPLINE TRANFORM to visual show me spline and than used bezier bend to animate spline.... prettty kinky combination if you ask me... i would like to know talk japanees and to get in touch with SST coder to ask him kindly if he can add morph support and other displacement support... but hell i hardly speak english:)
well maybe some1 will hear our voice and do our complete spline in 1 solution and lattice deformer .... both are possyble to do I guarantee as artist:)

[Per-Anders]

Originally posted by Tudor
The rest of the 3d world does not have the great dynamic bones that LW has.

not to get the thread off track but dynamic bones or SoftIK first made an appearance in Cinema 4D r8 Mocca Module (a good year and a half ago by now) afaik... though I have heard rumours that they might have even existed in a very simplified form in one of the lower end dedicated CA apps before then.

anyhow, for someone to code an ffd wouldn't be too hard at all. there are any number of ways trying to hack it with existing deformers from spline deformers through to bones themselves if you've not got an ffd object. but as a plugin it should be a synch, it's just a simple blend between points thing thing after all. as far as the deformation strength goes.

[Tudor]

Ahh.. didn't mean bone dynamics.. Dynamic bones, as in its ease of adding bones without the mess of one weightmap per bone etc.. There isn't really any skinning needed in LW, or rather we do it in a different way.

And until we get some proper lattice/wrap defomer.. Someone should be able to code it. I mean, we have a version that requires us to calculate now. If we cut out all the softFX stuff, and just want the lattice part left, I belive it could be done in realtime.

MdMetaplug_realtime.p
Anyone up for coding it for the rest of us? :)

[Per-Anders]

interesting, i never played with lw bones. so i presume it works by having a falloff per bone (this is what c4d does) then without need a weightmap in a lot of situations? or does it dynamically try and find the nearest geometry and fill up the space on the fly?

anyhow, with such a system you could conceivably make a grid of bones around your object, and use their dynamic falloffs (depending on how they work out their influence) to do very much the same job as an ffd. it's one alternative while you wait for a willing coder to do the job properly.

[Sil3]

Originally posted by Tudor
Ahh.. didn't mean bone dynamics.. Dynamic bones, as in its ease of adding bones without the mess of one weightmap per bone etc.. There isn't really any skinning needed in LW, or rather we do it in a different way.



U never saw messiah did u? It has the same approach, but with slightly diferent changes, like not needing so many bones :)

Now if only all progs had this aproach...instead of forcing us to paint weights :cry:

[SplineGod]

The nice thing is that LW bones have always worked this way.
Over the years tighter falloffs have been added plus there are other parameters that can be tweaked on a bone by bone basis.
I rarely find myself having to use weight maps or any at all. The nice thing is that if you do need weight maps the tools are there to really tweak and tune them. :)

mdme_sadie,
The soft IK in mocca and the other stuff looks very powerful.
From what I see C4D lacks the nice bone rigging tools that LW has (unless Im missing something). What is impressive though is C4Ds ability to load Lightwave scene files. A character with bones loads right in. I guess one could still do the bone setups in LW and export it to C4D. :)

[Per-Anders]

ah so it's falloffs form the bones... yes cinema has had this for as long as i can remember too, falloff types etc. but most of the time you ignore that and paint weightmaps because falloffs tend to be only good in a few very simple situations, otherwise you very often get unwanted influence, though it's nice for quickly roughing out a rig i guess.

it's bone rigging is ok, the bone tool is a synch for actually placement and creation of bones, and setting up a sik rig is a one click process, however hardik is not that great. specifically it really lacks in the constraints department though i have my own set of tools for that, and there are a few little plugins out there. of course it has a lot of power as far as expressions go etc, but still i would say far form perfect.

[4SquareKing]

But will it work like Lattice Deformation in Maya? The issue here is that in Maya you can have 3 objects all deform together and yet have animation work smooth like a eyelid blink that is not a clip map but has geometry and it does not get all f***ed up. The reason for this is the deformation happens after in Maya and before in LW. I feel his pain and know what he is talking about and what project.

4 Square King

[Stoehr]

I was very interested in lattice control about a year ago, and made this tutorial.
http://www.theladyandthelion.com/tutorials/potatoTUTORIAL.html

Flash 6 is required to view.

The concept of an internal and external bone control has come in handy.
A summary of the tut: The key is to have the external bones (the lattice) using a single weight map at 100%, and all bones interpolate the map. The internal bones have weight specific areas of the mesh, and they use "weight map only" and "weight normalization" is disabled in the bone properties. This is ofcourse, using LW 7.5. I don't have LW8 yet. I experimented all last summer with this concept on human faces, and I was moderately pleased with the results. Ultimately, I tweak the results by saving the poses as endomorphs, then manipulate further with the bones if necessary.

[chikega]

Originally posted by SplineGod
The soft IK in mocca and the other stuff looks very powerful.
From what I see C4D lacks the nice bone rigging tools that LW has (unless Im missing something). What is impressive though is C4Ds ability to load Lightwave scene files. A character with bones loads right in. I guess one could still do the bone setups in LW and export it to C4D. :)

Larry, I freaked out when I loaded a *.lws file into C4d for the first time - I couldn't believe it - bones and all.

C4d SoftIK has it's own built-in dynamics that works from what I can tell close to real time without precalculations. On the other hand, it doesn't interact with other outside forces as does LW. I think of Proton's sample scene of the big Hand punching the Skeleton dude. Maxon decided to develop a pseudo-dynamics for speed mostly. But, it looks really convincing on individual characters.

As far as rigging goes, Mocca is a step in the right direction - but Like Thomas 4d Rigging Tools and ACS4 for LW, individual developers (i.e. Stray Cat) have stepped in with their offerings at reasonable prices.:)

[SplineGod]

I was a bit surprised too Gary. Whats funny about IKBoosters dynamics is that since they are essentially baked it creates keyframes on everything making it an interesting thing to go back and tweak it by hand. I also havent found an easy way to animate a character and then throw some dynamics on top of what I have hand keyed. Maybe a character walking in the wind and struggling against gusts of wind etc etc.
Im wondering if the IK Goals in Mocca could be made to react to dynamics. IK Booster seems to calculate collsions just at the joints.

[chikega]

I'm not sure if it would work with SoftIK either. It essentially has "Speed, Drag, Gravity, Inertia" fields - you can only increase and decrease these effects. There are no options such X, Y, Z for Gravity to change the direction ... or a channel where one could load a fractal procedural to fake the effects of gusting winds. From my limited experience, it's mainly used for bouncy, stretchy effects on characters.

[SplineGod]

I see. Too bad, but its a first pass at this. It will be interesting to see what happens next. :)

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