Lattices for Messiah?

[Qslugs]

Did someone say lattices?! Yes lattices would be cool if theres no patent problem. I believe companies using your traditional cube lattice need to pay a patent per usage. I cant remember who had the patent or when it ran till but I do remember this same discusson occuring a while back.

[ljilekor]

I'm working on a lattice plugin.

It will work not only with boxes but with any imported object.
U can use any object to deform a mesh. Of course its better to have a (very) lopoly object, otherwise there would be too many control points.

In theory you should be able to put bones in the lopoly (character) object. And use this lopoly object as a lattice to deform the actual character. Afterwards the finetuning on deformation (shoulders, elbows, hips, legs,...) can be done using the the lattice controlpoints.
It can also be used for facial animation.

The applications are limitless.

If you have any suggestions...
:buttrock:

Other useful plugs are also on their way.

Let's push things forward.

[maks]

Hey hey hey - now THAT sounds incredibly great! :applause: Will this be a commercial plugin, or a free one...? :)

M.

[Sil3]

Originally posted by ljilekor
I'm working on a lattice plugin.

It will work not only with boxes but with any imported object.
U can use any object to deform a mesh. Of course its better to have a (very) lopoly object, otherwise there would be too many control points.

In theory you should be able to put bones in the lopoly (character) object. And use this lopoly object as a lattice to deform the actual character. Afterwards the finetuning on deformation (shoulders, elbows, hips, legs,...) can be done using the the lattice controlpoints.
It can also be used for facial animation.

The applications are limitless.

If you have any suggestions...
:buttrock:

Other useful plugs are also on their way.

Let's push things forward.


:buttrock:

I have a suggestion already :p

If we are gonna use those lattices mainly to correct bone deformations, can u think of a way to implement some kind of mirrowing? Like i make adjustments to lets say Left Arm, can it be copied to the Right Arm also? So that we dont need to make the same thing twice, call me lazzy heheeh :blush:

[Qslugs]

The best suggstion I could think if is to get pmg to rerelease the lattice deformer they "accidentally" released back in the days of the LW plugin messiah. Although one would assume that that isnt compatible with the current architecture. Either way though I am glad to see someone is working on the request.

[lmilton]

As I mentioned in the past, there may be patent/licensing issues. Given that backdrop, we (pmG) can simply release a plugin.

-lyle

[Julez4001]

Kool. A plugin
that way its not tied a current rev version and animate & studio can use without updating to a rev

Weight the control points for the lattice box would be kool so you can tell what points to effect what areas the strongest with out making a heavt lattice contoller.

[Qslugs]

Yep, release it as a plugin! Assuming of course it wouldn't cost a limb. Great options would be either a procedural ffd (ala max) or inside any object cage. Also, the ability to use weights and run fractal deformations through the lattice should be included.

And this brings up a good point, are there any other useful 3d type technology patents that could be released as plugins?

[lmilton]

Originally posted by lmilton
As I mentioned in the past, there may be patent/licensing issues. Given that backdrop, we (pmG) can simply release a plugin.

-lyle

D'OH!!!!! *can't*. We *can't* simply release a plugin.:blush: It still may violate patents.

Typing much too fast, answering too much mail...

-lyle

[Qslugs]

Couldn't you guys just pay out per license for the patent(s)? I'd be willing to pay extra for them if that were the case. Again, assuming it weren't too much.

----------------------
http://www.rubberflex.com/RubWarp/WhitePaper.pdf

That's a link that states the following in the begining:

The state-of-the-art in Free-Form Deformation (FFD) technologies has long been considered the so-called
“FFD Lattice” which was patented over ten years ago by Thomas Sederberg and Brigham Young
University. The patent, now owned by ViewPoint Data Labs, has been licensed to virtually every major 3D
software developer.
----------------

I do know that Max has lattices, and the copywrite on their ffd isn't discreet or kinextix either. Nor is it the yost group.

Cant you just pay them per license? I assume thats the way the other developers handle this issue. I guess though maybe I am missing something. I thought I remember reading something stating prices per license for the incorporation of lattice technology within 3d software. And I dont remeber thinnking that it was all taht much to pay per instance of the patent, like 25 or 30 dollars per.

So I guess if it's not possible then so be it. I assume theres a bit more to it than the obvious. Although I wouldn't mind paying some money to get lattices incorporated in messiah.

[Sil3]

Originally posted by lmilton
D'OH!!!!! *can't*. We *can't* simply release a plugin.:blush: It still may violate patents.

Typing much too fast, answering too much mail...

-lyle

Well...pmg CANT release it, but their programmers as indivduals could code it on their "free" time at home, then somehow this code would slip to someone who would be kind enough to make it freely available :p

I wont tell anything to nobody :D

Ok ok i´ll stop :blush:

[lmilton]

Of course if it were as simple as that, we'd have done it;) Licensing, I mean:D

Why not wait to see what ljilekor and his team has in store? It sounds like he's taking a nice approach.

-lyle

[Qslugs]

Ok fair enough :) I guess as long as someone is working on an implementation it doesn't really matter whom it is.

So, as for suggestions (as requested above):

the ability to use weights to determine where the lattice may or may not deform

The ability use a fractal patterns as a deformation on the lattice, also allowing to use weights to determine which areas can have the deformation applied to it. Actually the greater compatability with as many other effects would be great. The more the merrier.

Also: give us a generic porcedural(s) that fit around the item / selection that you are applying the lattice to. That way one can apply a quick cube/sphere/etc lattice around the object.

[AlexK]

I wonder if there is any news on this one ljilekor?

[Qslugs]

yep. still interrested in a lattice plugin.......

[Wegg]

Me Three! Cartoon eyes. . . MMmmm. . ..

[dobermunk]

me four: cartoon bodies!

[ljilekor]

I'm working on releasing a few plugins. Coding, writing tutorials, making demoscenes, setup website, ...
The ObjectDeformer won't be one of them but it will be in the next release. First I have some other reeally goody goodies. :drool:

You must know everything is done after work so it's pretty hard to keep coding on a regular basis. But believe me... :D

Let's push things forward

[Qslugs]

I think you're just being lazy.

[ljilekor]

Thanx man, it's really encouraging :twisted:

[Pixelnoir]

Cant lattices be faked in Messiah with flex curves or bone cages?

[Pixelnoir]

I seem to remember an old animation that I think was done in Messiah. Two cartoon characters, blue and yellow I think, playing with a box of cereal. Great eye deformation was happening. How was THAT done?

[RangTang]

It seems to me every program has some type of deformation lattice: Strata, Amapi, trueSpace, Maya, Max, Cinema 4D, Lightwave, or maybe I'm missing the specifics of this feature.
It seems like saying that other general deformation tools are patented.:shrug:

[Julez4001]

It depend on what you mean by 'deformation' lattices.
Maya is the standard book on Lattice.
Lightwave has nothing like it. theres techiques to "kinda" fake it but nothing like Maya's.

True test of lattice is to do a oval long eye ball .... sorta 3 times in height and half (of the original size)as deep and then have it to roll arounf in a eye socket as if it was a standard circle.
The Cartoon eye test is what I call it.

[tjnyc]

Is Lattice really needed in messiah? It would nice to have one, but what can't be done in messiah with the existing tools that really only a lattice/FFD deformer can? Not a point of argument, but a honest question, because I would really like to know.



Cheers,

[AlexK]

Is Lattice really needed in messiah? It would nice to have one, but what can't be done in messiah with the existing tools that really only a lattice/FFD deformer can?
Well, how would you do the cartoon eye for example?

[tjnyc]

Well, how would you do the cartoon eye for example?If you mean the one Jules is talking about. I would think off the cuff of using Bulge. First have a sphere eyeball and then animating it rolling around. Add Bulge to deform it in height and depth using the curve as a weight tool. Since Bulge like lattice are good localized tools for deforming, Bulge should do the job. I'll have to test out this theory, but that is what I would try.


Cheers,

[tjnyc]

Okay, I did a quick test and it works with Bulge. Here is what I did. I loaded a sphere model. I create a Null and parented the sphere to it. Moved the sphere to the center of the Null. Animated a rolling of the eye via the Null. Added a Bulge deform to the sphere. Unparented the Curve from the Sphere so it won't move with the rolling. I added two points to the curve, one for the bottom and one for the top of the sphere. I increased the width, height and depth of the top point of the curve. Scrub the animation. If you have studio add the dolleye shader and see the final result.

Cheers,

[Suricate]

The easiest way to get rotating cartoony eyes is to have a sphere, which is parented to a null 'Rotate' which in turn is parented to a Null 'Scale'. Scaling 'Scale' deforms the sphere, while rotating 'Rotate' rotates it. This trick was given by Ben Smith in the LW tips & tricks section of the '3D World' mag, issue 51. Ben also recommends to steer away from cartoony eyes and to use spherical eyes instead, as cartoony eyes generally lead to trouble ...:sad:

[gsuttor]

I seem to remember an old animation that I think was done in Messiah. Two cartoon characters, blue and yellow I think, playing with a box of cereal. Great eye deformation was happening. How was THAT done?Lol! Hoota and Snooz. (1999)

I'm directly responsable for the first models, rig and animation and I can assure you they where VERY basic. If I can remember (and I can only just) the eyes and eyelids where standard spheres that had a bone that stretched them vertically, and then a bone sticking out the front and back that rotated the eyes. It was VERY brute force kind of thing and my very first ever messiah 1.5 rig, no fancy control objects or anything. :)

Check out my reel on the link below, they are in there.

[EvilGnome]

Lol! Hoota and Snooz. (1999)

I'm directly responsable for the first models, rig and animation and I can assure you they where VERY basic. If I can remember (and I can only just) the eyes and eyelids where standard spheres that had a bone that stretched them vertically, and then a bone sticking out the front and back that rotated the eyes. It was VERY brute force kind of thing and my very first ever messiah 1.5 rig, no fancy control objects or anything. :)

Check out my reel on the link below, they are in there.
Those were the good old days! You're gonna hate this Geoff but now we use..... Lattices for Hoota and Snoz's eyes in Max!

Argh!

The are one of the few tools which I've thought would be nice in Lightwave/Messiah, but there's so much flexibility in Messiah especially there always seems to be an alternative.

I guess the biggest advantage for us has been that Lattices can deform multiple meshes but retain those meshes relative positions/rotations to one another.

Matt

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