Discreet closed most european offices

[squidinc]

how many were there? from 3dluvr it sounds like just one in germany, wonder how many staff are now jobless :hmm:

[Srek]

The offices in Spain, France and Germany are closing, leaving only England. Also all PR activity has been outsourced.
Cheers
Srek

[Aegis Prime]

There's a storm coming... Wonder how much longer Discreet can maintain Max's pricing now that Softimage Foundation has been announced?

[xynaria]

...and what 'advantage' did not responing to Maya's price cut achieve?????? :rolleyes:

[Dakini]

I think they start feeling the response from their unsatisfied customers. Hopefully they just reducing their cost to lower the prices ;) !!

[Steve Green]

I really don't see how they can possibly keep Max positioned at its current price point.

Max is overkill for a company who just wants seats for modeling, texturing and rigging - Maya complete or XSI Foundation or Lightwave would do the job and all of these are far cheaper than Max.

I was never particularly enthused with the whole round of price cuts - yes it makes packages more accessible, but at what cost, that said, I don't think discreet can ignore XSI Foundation as well as Maya Complete.

- Steve

[halo]

ignoring things seems to be Discreets main ploy...its ignored bugs, its ignored undeveloped features, its ignored development outside of what it can find on the web or from another supplier, and its ignored market price changes and competition.

im ignoring their subscription emails now...there doesnt seem to be much advantage in paying for 2 years subscription when that is damn close to the upgrade price...one or 2 esoteric plugins along the way is no sweetner for multiple license and version loyalty

[StefanA]

the farewell link on discreet's site

http://www.discreet.de/farewell/

[raz-0]

Man, I haven't been to the discreet max forums for months now, and decided to drop in for a new update after reading this. And the forums are not responding.

IMO this coudl be good, or bad. If it means discreet is finally going to get rid of their horrible dealer network, it's a good thing. It's caused me nothing but problems as a hobbyist in a nice populous region of the US. I can't imagine how it would suck for a professional in italy for example.

[Martin Kay]

What annoyed me was that Discreet were giving competitive upgrades in the US for something like 1600$/ £1200, but not in Europe.

[Northchild]

Maybe there will be a future revival of Discreet products as Autodesk becomes more financially healthy.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117861&p=irol-stockinfo

A company & product makeover after the 64 bit stuff becomes more mainstream would be neat.

Eh. Business and technology changes. What the hell. Tough to get too excited about it unless you're a major interest. :)

[Funk Ride]

It's the low-end that seems to be on the cutting end here, Dicreet seems to be forging ahead with teir high-end compositing products, especially the big Linux push.

Roll on Toxik is all I can say :)

[f3rry]

Did discreet setup operational stations for Max only or along with flame, inferno etc???

Cause they really ignore others with products like flame and or inferno, almost no competition there. They can do whatever they want, unfortunately they can not have the same attitude with 3D package

[Byla]

Try Maya and then start complaining about bugs... hehe.

Sad to see Discreete leave Europe.

[mustique]

Discrete's compositing packages will face big competition with softwares making use of the next-gen graphics cards. So the future for Discrete in that department doesn't look so shiny as well.

[StefanA]

Don't under estimate the bandwidth in the SGI computers. The reason why so many post production companys are using flame and inferno is the speed of pushing data. At this point no PC or Mac (not even the G5) can push the same amout of data as a SGI Octane or SGI Octane2. So regardless of the graphics cards it's all about pushing raw data in and out.
The current architecture of a PC/Mac motherboard can't do that... sad by true. In pure CPU power a single 1.5Ghz P4 is about 10 times faster than a SGI, but the SGI doesn't have to use the CPU that much due to the OpenGL architecture and the bandwidth.

Regarding Discreet and MAX, the MAX development team has *nothing* to do with the flame/inferno team.
For me it feels like 3dsmax is a dead product, not by user base or production made in it, but by development. You don't see much from them which haven't been a plugin before or that some company had as a in-house plugin.
They really need to shape up and do something drastic to survive the next year(s). A price cut will help them a short while, but in the long run then need to do more than that.

reagards

stefan andersson

[mustique]

Originally posted by StefanA
... In pure CPU power a single 1.5Ghz P4 is about 10 times faster than a SGI, ...


MHz is not a direct measure for the speed of an CPU. SGI's cpu's can't be that slow. Also bandwith problems of PC/macs are exactly what the nextgen graphic cards claim to take care of. And if that turns out to be true, apps will inevitably be written to make use of it.

anyways. This thread is about discretes 3D department. And I agree it sucks.

[StefanA]

This was based on the R10000 CPU. I remember 4 years ago, I was using a single PIII 550 and an Octane R10000, and mental ray was rendering 4 times faster than the SGI machine (was using mental ray 2.1 with Softimage|3D).

anyhow... yeah the thread was about discreet's 3D department. And let's not forget that Combustion is also affected by this.
I doubt we will see any more German or Spanish versions of 3dsmax. So these people now has to learn to "speak 3D" in english like the rest of us :)

I haven't used 3dsmax since 1998-99, but I still keep an eye out to see what they are up to. And I haven't been impressed.

regards

stefan andersson

[thomaspecht]

uh, R10k is pretty old - octane2 can have dual R16k-600, tezro (required for the most recent flame versions) up to four R16k-800, you know? ;)

on topic: as a max user myself i've stopped upgrading at release four, which is from end of 2000 if i remember correctly. 5 and 6 just didn't seem to be worth the upgrade fee considering that most of the new features were already available in the form of scripts and plugins.

i agree that there are important features missing in the package, that the price is ridiculous and that the future looks quite bad - especially considering that apparently a lot of people from the max development team are gone.

[charleyc]

Man, there is a lot of discreet support around here. :rolleyes:

Many of you seem quite sure of its demise. Discreet is one of the most successful companies in the cg industry. Its comp/editing stations are rooted very deep in most all film and television facilities. Its 3d software is very well the most widely used 3d app out there. With the majority of its use in the design visualization and games markets it is seeing growth in films and tv. THis months Post magazine overviews 5 or so current US tv series fx houses, 3 of which are using Max. These are times when many software companies are closing up entirely or being sold/bought off to other companies. I would say that localizing its overseas facilities as a cost cutting measure seems like a fairly small corporate change to be predicting such doom and gloom.

As for all of you who are dissatisfied with max 5 and 6. I used 4 longer then any other versions. Got on 5 a couple months before 6 came out. I can tell you the advantages of 5 and 6 are pretty significant. As for the plug-ins included (reactor I assume you mean since particle flow does not have an actual plug-in counterpart, thinking particles is the closest), it is less expensive to upgrade and get it then it was to purchase out right. And those certainly are not the only changes. The connection to mental ray is second only to XSI. Its radiosity (not GI/raytracing) engine is one of the very best our there. Its animation tools are much more complete and powerful compared to 4 as well.
As for the subscription price, well aside form the advantages of getting the extensions before they are released in the next major version, the price is half what the normal upgrade cost is. With a 12-14 month major release schedule, you get two full upgrades for the price of one. Seems like a good deal to me.

[halo]

As for the subscription price, well aside form the advantages of getting the extensions before they are released in the next major version, the price is half what the normal upgrade cost is. With a 12-14 month major release schedule, you get two full upgrades for the price of one. Seems like a good deal to me.

when that actually happens, be sure to let everyone know ;) (hasnt so far...just about to be 12 months since 6 came out, 7 is still in development from what i hear)

i think the frustration people feel with max is that off the shelf it (used to) looks like a good complete package to buy, but under the bonnet for a few weeks and a few upgrades later a lot of users feel that discreet havent responded to user requests or even fixed existing problems etc. Discreet have 5 figures of my money for max, yet support that is charged for or just rubbish ( we do better off forums than through dealers ), there are still some fundamental flaws with it that are either a problem or display a program that hasnt really moved on in some of its core approaches, and there isnt really very good communication on future development or consultation.

Its not alone in this, there is a general slow down in development, but discreet havent responded with agressive pricing, and their attitude towards max and its market users is looking a little secondhand.

Ask yourself this, if you had the money in your pocket now and had to start again, max being the price it is, would you pay for it again...?

Anyway, hopefully discreet will pump more money into development, but i really dont hold much breath on that, in fact i'll lay good odds that we'll have another upgrade of freebies and existing plugins like we did before...apart from the shell modifier that is.

[JoeMo]

I don't see anything wrong with localizing staff for various reasons. What I do see as detrimental is letting go of the workers that develop the software (the dreamteam). I know that it was mentioned that there were developers being hired on in Canada, but I don't think they are really hiring that many after searching through the employment page at discreet. I also don't think that they had as many programmers as the other big two before the layoffs.

I have been a Max user for a long time, but after seeing all the new stuff the other big companies are doing, and the new low prices, it makes it hard to stay a maxer. Max has lots of plugins out there, which helps, but the integration and compatablity problems make them a weaker solution in most cases compared to how tight they are inside the other programs.

[charleyc]

I don't know. I just don't share your view of this. I have been using max since it was first released actually started in the old 3d Studio DOS days) and have seen this program grow into what it is today. I am very pleased with it today. If you had asked be the same question while I was still using r3, I would have something differnt to say. I was actaully prepared to jump ship then. But since deiscreet has taken over the development of it, I see pretty major changes with each release. The least of which occured in the r4-5 jump. If you are into scritping, you will notice changes under the hood from release to release. So either they are screwing with the script synatax for fun, or they are making changes under there. The biggest problem I hear about that "discreet fails to correct" is the "constant crashing and instability". I had virtually no crashes (crashed when screwing with MR and making too many parts with PFlow) when I was running just straight max. As soon as I installed my first plug-in (nVidia Maxtreme drivers) I began to get some minor, annoying crashes from time to time (none resulting in data loss). As I added more plug-ins (VRay free, VRay Advanced, Brazil...) I dramatically increased my crash rates. This is not a problem with discreet, it is a problem with the plug-in maker. I use both VRay and Brazil here at work and know the risks and work with/around them. We are able to maintain production schedules (which are better then with R4) even with these problems.

Guys from discreet pretty regularly attend our local Max User Group meetings, and I get to talk with them pretty candidly. I am pretty satisfied with the product and see it growing a lot stonger with each release. I have head rumors about an R7 delay, but nothing from discreet. There will be another UserGroup meeting this month and I hope to attend and ask. But since this will be the first release to fall into there 12-14 month schedule, until it is officially late, there isn't much to say about it. Besides, I have a feeling many of the new major features could see their way into extensions that subscription users will get prior to R7's release.

[halo]

stability wise, i have little complaint, i run a fairly clean system, othing really fiddled with like maxtreme, i think the problems with max stem from its old core...it does have some terrible rounding issues which rear up in scene scale etc problems and in parametric maps and it truly falls over in large data set scenes...and when it does fall over its not so good at recognising it has...the amount of times its told me a scene hasnt changed when it blatantly has is quite something. But these are problems that have been apparent for so many versions now that its just a nause to see them again and again whilst pumping more money into the product.

As for interest, well i've had more annoying calls about upgrade and prepayment for subscription, a few susciber notices and 0 contact that hasnt been trying to sell me something. We only went over to subscription because discreet dont recognise loyalty and demand money for any tidbits it offers, and so want payment up front for the rewards. Oh and will discreet let you just one subscription for max and just upgrade the rest? no...we're either railroaded or left to wonder what we may miss out on even though upgrades are normally purchased...dont even mention that companies like adobe run a flat upgrade rate.

FWIW 5 & 6 are improvments over 4 but we are still wary of max's limitations, which after 6 versions and what 8 years one wonders should we still be dealing with the same situation and will it ever change. Discreet and Max arent exactly renowned for inspiring confidence and communication, perhaps its different where you are. I guess if you havent run into any re-occuring problems then its going to be a different picture from your side...just trying so show how it sits with the other side.

edit: its probably worth wandering through this thread and seeing what max users are asking for...there are some common themes that are just as applicable to 4,5 and 6 but havent been addressed...it also demonstrates confidence in the product as being low with others, which lies squarely in discreets court.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=134903&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

i'd love to be proud of max, but to be honest where as years ago i would recommend it right off the bat, now i would recommend a good look at the other 3 major apps as well. Things have changed over the past few years that makes it a bit of a different ball game now.

[charleyc]

I definately know what you mean about the large scale scenes and large data scenes. I have rarely run into the large scale issue in my job. And especially dealing with GI renderers, large scale scenes are GI render killers. I usually break a scene into parts and render it in layers. This also corrects the problems with large data scenes for us. Equally as annoying is working on something scaled smaller then say an inch (or several mm I suppose) But again I have rarely delt with these and can easily work around them. You do make me curious though as to how well other apps out there deal with these issues. Are they even issues to them? But again, I am quite pleased with it for what I have used it for.

I talk a lot with our local reseller and he talks alot with discreet. I get most of my questions answered pretty quickly (not that I have many).

But for the problems you are having, I would definately be checking out altrernatives if they solve the issues.

[halo]

probably too far down the road for the moment, but if maya gets vray then its will be worth a little diversion maybe...

[charleyc]

Yeah, VRay is a powerful tool.
I went through that thread..a friend of mine has a theory about some of that kind of talk. "The squeaky wheel gets the oil." A lot of that talk is hearsay picked up from too much web forum time. A well spoken noob can lead another inexperianced user into believing a lot. While some of it is legitimate issues with the program, most are simply wish lists for tools they think will save them time. Even when they are implemented, many will not take the time to learn them and complain about how bloated max is becomming. Max is an old tool (been around for a while) and it is getting sharper. I have confidnce in the product as long as it can get the job done. I also try not to equate my own limitations to max's limitations. I see more impressive stuff created with max all the time. (look at digital dimension, Blur, Blizzard, that company Brandon Davis works for...) However, if the job at hand required a tool or functionality that was beyond what anyone was productively doing with max, it is time to look elsewhere for a solution (at which point you thank God there are).

Back to topic (sort of), I think many people read this thread and begin to think "oh no, discreet is going down!" Then they go elsewhere and preach it. I don't belive this is the case and could really care less (other then the annoyance of this snowball effect). Most of these people will probably have forgotten they even posted it here several years down the road when things have changed again and discreet and its 3d software are still around. I see max on a steady climb. One day I hope it hits the top, but even if it does, it wont stay there. Another will come along and take its place.

[richcz3]

Speaking as an outsider looking in, Discreet had a broad software lineup that may be weighing heavy on development for MAX. I see their cuts as a consolidation/streamlining of business to deal with redundant operations effecting competative pricing. MAX won't be going away any time soon, but perhaps the continuance of other programs may be coming under closer scrutiny. I imagine that talk about price cuts in MAX will make the rounds once Discreet has secured their bottom line and can make a build of MAX to compete at the same price points as other packages.



richcz3

[charleyc]

I mostly agree with you richcz3. But I imagine that for a company as large as disceet, each product acts somewhat as a microbuisness. As long as they are making money, they exist. And the more they make the better the grow. These office closures are most likely a reallocation of resources to another part of the company as a whole and has a small effect of any specific product.

[halo]

i think an unspun PR statement would help confidence....

[thomaspecht]

Originally posted by halo
...good odds that we'll have another upgrade of freebies and existing plugins like we did before...apart from the shell modifier that is.

shell modifier was also developed from a freebie - the solidify modifier, which was available for 4 and maybe even 3 or earlier.

[retinajoy]

Originally posted by charleyc
These office closures are most likely a reallocation of resources to another part of the company as a whole and has a small effect of any specific product.

Two other major apps such as Alias's Maya and Newteks Lightwave went through a similar process of reallocating there resources, but they are both doing strong after many naysayings. However, I do think Discreet definitely needs to cut their prices to survive, as other apps offer as much functionality and in some cases better implementation for less.

[charleyc]

Originally posted by halo
i think an unspun PR statement would help confidence....

Unspun PR statement??..... Is there such a thing :p

[richcz3]

As a Lightwave user here, I think the grass is always greener on the other side. If you visit the LW group here on CGTalk, people are reading all sorts of writing on the wall for Lightwave after LW8's release.

From articles I've read, I feel Discreet has been building down for the past year and a half. The office closures are a neccesity and not neccesarily a gloom of future prospects. Saving money in anticipation of projected future sales is the first step. Building and marketing a MAX version to compete at the new price points is probably the next step.

3D software is really turning real cut throat on the financial margins.


richcz3

[halo]

Unspun PR statement??..... Is there such a thing

dunno ;) but it would make a refreshing change...dont companies realise that a spun PR statement just means people read between the lines and come up with 2+2 = 5?

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