messiah:Studio 2.0

[implicit]

wow that guy is fast.

[mmkelly011881]

jaw drops... pause.... then.. YAY!!!

[blax_ed]

ok thats nice... but only 52 min. of modelling??? i can´t believe that... 12 h of texturing sound more realism!

[bjoern]

jeahh taron rocks.
An german 3D Freak :-)

regards
bjoern

[t.m0]

well fast is quite an understatement....

awe

greets.t

[gKay]

as usual on the pmg site: painfully few informations...

wonder if this one's modeled in lightwave? Given the images on the site the zombie is also rigged & animatable.

look like it's time to upgrade to studio .. asap!

[Nuro]

Taron is strike Back:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Kahenraz]

/me dies.

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[elnady]

WOOWOWOW
Amazing:buttrock:

[Rodi]

pritty darn didily doo!!

[Asgorath]

*Looks the price* *looks the features*

Ok I surrender! Where do I need to sign ?



:bowdown:

[chikega]

Anyone have any info on the official release date of m:s 2.0?:)

[Larsen]

Beautiful, scary but beautiful. Taron is a master :buttrock:

I saw on the site the great capabilities
Does anybody else tried it ? Can we import models from file like .obj or .max and just use it as a renderer ?

[chikega]

I have messiah:studio 1.5c and the displacement features you're seeing are part of the upcoming 2.0 rev. messiah can handle the following object formats:

.3ds
.lwo
.dxf
.obj

Yes you can use it just as a renderer, but you'll have to wait a bit for 2.0 - by the way, are you thinking about using it for your "Machine Flesh" challenge?;)

[Emmanuel]

Taron is excellent no doubt, but actually this head looks very similiar to his mage head he did years ago, or like this : http://www.taron.de/Funny.htm

So I wouldn't take those 57 minutes too seriously, he probably does it in that time, but when You do/use the same base geometry over and over again, You get quick....

[Slythis]

wow.....i can't even really express myself beyond that without cursing...wow

[PauHana]

HOLY Shiznit! Man, it'd be so nice to animate something modeled and rigged by Taron. pmg...nice tool:buttrock: Heh heh heh

[lmilton]

Originally posted by Emmanuel
Taron is excellent no doubt, but actually this head looks very similiar to his mage head he did years ago, or like this : http://www.taron.de/Funny.htm

So I wouldn't take those 57 minutes too seriously, he probably does it in that time, but when You do/use the same base geometry over and over again, You get quick....

I know this is not your intent, but is sounds like you're trying to diminish the impact of his skills & talents just because he may have created something slightly similar in the past. If you're judging Taron's work by old past works that he's posted on his site, then it's clear that you don't know him at all.

The fact is there should be no doubts about Taron's ability. It's not all just mechanical memory. I've worked with him side-by-side, and have known him for a number of years. So, I can vouch for the authencity of the modeling time, and the fact that he is capable of "no-so-similar" geometry in a similar amount of time... or better.

His talents definately are well beyond ordinary, so you'll certainly be forgiven for having doubts. However, only if you've worked with him would you truly understand.

Take care,

-lyle

[AnimBot]

Ok so I've been following messiah for a while now but one thing I've never had answered. Is Messiah: Studio a full package? I've seen plenty of stuff about the animation and texturing and rendering. Is there a modeling module missing or have I just never come across that info? I love what they're doing with the program though It's workflow just seems to make so much sense to me.

[fwtep]

Originally posted by AnimBot
Ok so I've been following messiah for a while now but one thing I've never had answered. Is Messiah: Studio a full package? I've seen plenty of stuff about the animation and texturing and rendering. Is there a modeling module missing or have I just never come across that info? I love what they're doing with the program though It's workflow just seems to make so much sense to me.
It doesn't do modeling. It accepts OBJ, DXF, 3DS, and LWO.

Fred

[thomas123]

i love your work, taron!

[tjnyc]

Originally posted by AnimBot
Ok so I've been following messiah for a while now but one thing I've never had answered. Is Messiah: Studio a full package? I've seen plenty of stuff about the animation and texturing and rendering. Is there a modeling module missing or have I just never come across that info? I love what they're doing with the program though It's workflow just seems to make so much sense to me.

Modeling you have to do in other apps like SILO for one. :thumbsup:

Silo doesn't currently support UV mapping, but it is sure to appear in the near future. You can of course go to any other apps to do the UV, Wings3D has a nice AutoUV feature and it's free.

Modo could be another alternative since it does modeling and UVs, but currently that is not an option until it is released.

Cheers,

[chikega]

Like tjnyc, I'm a big SILO fan - Nevercenter has to be one of the most responsive and proactive small companies ever - one week, we request a feature and "BAM" it's in there the next - amazing. So, for $109 extra along with messiah:studio, you've got a pretty good suite of tools. :)

[lmilton]

Originally posted by chikega
Like tjnyc, I'm a big SILO fan - Nevercenter has to be one of the most responsive and proactive small companies ever - one week, we request a feature and "BAM" it's in there the next - amazing. So, for $109 extra, you've got a pretty good suite of tools. :)

Just curious, did they announce that SILO will have UV map creation?

I ask because we tend to receive request for recommended modelers, and those recommendation requests are started to heat up with the m:s2 announcement.

Is someone out there willing to compile a list of professionally viable modeling apps, per discipline (gaming, production, etc)?

That would be a big help...

-lyle

[kcurtis]

WOW Simply Amazing!!!


------------------------
http://www.digitalcurtis.com

[chikega]

Originally posted by lmilton
Just curious, did they announce that SILO will have UV map creation?

I ask because we tend to receive request for recommended modelers, and those recommendation requests are started to heat up with the m:s2 announcement.

Is someone out there willing to compile a list of professionally viable modeling apps, per discipline (gaming, production, etc)?

That would be a big help...

-lyle

No official announcement - but they're good on their word. There are several alternatives in the meantime. As tjnyc mentioned, Wings3d is a free solution along with UV Mapper Classic. The professional version is $49.95 USD:

http://www.uvmapper.com/

There's also Ultimate Unwrap3d for $39.95 USD

http://www.unwrap3d.com/

Here's a fairly exhaustive list of shareware/freeware modeling programs for those on a budget:

http://www.3dlinks.com/links.cfm?categoryid=1&subcategoryid=2

:)

[moovieboy]

So... after YEARS of patiently waiting... has Messiah COMPLETELY given up on bringing any of their products to Mac OSX? Once upon a time there was always a page on their site saying, "we're working on a Mac version soon..."

Now, I can't find any mention of it. Sigh :shrug:

-Tom

[lmilton]

Originally posted by moovieboy
So... after YEARS of patiently waiting... has Messiah COMPLETELY given up on bringing any of their products to Mac OSX? Once upon a time there was always a page on their site saying, "we're working on a Mac version soon..."

Now, I can't find any mention of it. Sigh :shrug:

-Tom

I have to admit, it has been a long time since the initial announcements. I regret that the long delay has been completely unnavoidable. However, we certainly haven't given up on OSX. We've decided to post information only when there is something *concrete*.

When there is some real news on the OSX front, we'll post on our site.

-lyle

[liquidx]

very nice indeed! Looks like it would have taken way longer to model though - you must have some secret gift/skill!

:)

[ghopper]

Originally posted by lmilton
Is someone out there willing to compile a list of professionally viable modeling apps, per discipline (gaming, production, etc)?
-lyle

Apart from Wings3D, Silo3D and Zbrush the only other packages I think
worth mentioning are:

Mirai 1.5 (www.izware.com)
( Polygon Modeler only and currently in BETA )
Mirai has been used in games and film ( like in LOTR ). Note: Mirai is a complete 3D package.

Nendo (www.izware.com)
( Polygon modeler only )
Last time I looked it was around $99. But it hasn't been updated for ages.

Rhino3D (www.rhino3d.com)
( Nurbs modeler only )
For product design, engineering, and more - check site

Btw, wouldn't MODO be a perfect companinion for m:s ? Although the latest I've heard is that Lux is working on a rendering module as well, and obviously MODO hasn't been released yet.

If I wouldn't be using C4D or LW already, I would either use Silo3D or Wings3D and Zbrush with m:s 2.0.

P.S. please correct any info on the above modelers if needed.

[tjnyc]

I don't think you can say the material and rendering in Mirai is this or that, since only the beta testers and Izware are in the know. If you are referring to 1.1, that is a different story.

[ghopper]

edit: removed post to avoid further confusion.

[gsuttor]

I think people are missing the point of the times stamped on the
image.

All that lovely rendered detail is mainly displacment rendered with some kick butt shaders, (that's how I SEE it anyway, could be wrong.) so the 12hrs of texture time on top of the base hour for modeling is FAST yes, but not impossible. The detail is in the textures.

[tjnyc]

Where did Greg state such a thing? I check regularly being a former Mirai user for the past 4 years and I have never seen him make such a statement, he has been extremely quiet on what is and what isn't coming, so I find this to be a rather big leak on his part if it is true.

[lmilton]

Originally posted by gsuttor
I think people are missing the point of the times stamped on the
image.

All that lovely rendered detail is mainly displacment rendered with some kick butt shaders, (that's how I SEE it anyway, could be wrong.) so the 12hrs of texture time on top of the base hour for modeling is FAST yes, but not impossible. The detail is in the textures.

EXACTLY. Taron included that other info as an afterthought. His main objective was to show off the displacement and shading.

-lyle

[ghopper]

Originally posted by tjnyc
Where did Greg state such a thing? I check regularly being a former Mirai user for the past 4 years and I have never seen him make such a statement, he has been extremely quiet on what is and what isn't coming, so I find this to be a rather big leak on his part if it is true.

I can't find the post at the moment, since izware is down again. I remember reading Mirai 1.5 main attention will include display driver issues, bugfixes and the likes and if you look at Mirai 1.1 rendering / material system and look at how long developing something like m:s takes, you can kind of guess that Mirai 1.5 rendering system won't be as advanced as m:s's. Don't forget, Izware is a similar size company like pmG, so they only have a small programming team.

I've used Mirai in the past as well and still got my license, so don't think I'm trying to bash it.

Just wanted to say that Mirai could complement m:s very nicely ;) So to avoid further confusion I will update my post about Mirai.

peace

[tjnyc]

Sorry if you think I was referring to your comment as bashing, which I don't see how it could be inferred, but you stated that Mirai was just for modeling, which as a user you know that isn't all together true. I also don't see a reason why they wouldn't update the renderer, Ambient-whisper even stated that Bay Raitt was testing Mirai's GI solution a while ago. Also, Greg never stated that the main focus was display drivers and such, he just stated that they were working on those things. But my first comment stands, until Izware states what the features are, any idea of what is and what isn't are just assumptions and not a point of fact.


Cheers,

[ghopper]

Originally posted by tjnyc
Sorry if you think I was referring to your comment as bashing, which I don't see how it could be inferred, but you stated that Mirai was just for modeling, which as a user you know that isn't all together true.

Oh man, communication is sometimes a funny thing ;)

Didn't know my post about Mirai would imply that it is a modeler only. I said it's a complete package, but thought that m:s would complement it nicely as a rendering system. I will try to be clearer next time ;)

Anway, back to messiah:studio.

thx

[jejuhorse86]

well i got a question:)
i just downloaded the demo version of messiah:animate 4.0
and can it read max6 files?
cause it appears not to be reading it
or i guess there is a way that i can change the format of a model
max to 3ds?
well if anyone can answer my question than
thank you:)

[noen]

the texturing is fantastic!

however, the nasal cavity is incorrect and there is no skull bone visible above the upper gum line but the intent is to show off the displacement shaders so these are only details - the skin looks kind of hard and plastic to me

after checking their site i can see a different render, though i still dont care much for the nose, i'd love to see this animated!

brenda

[Taron333]

Here's a little view at the wireframe....just heard that some are interested in seeing it.

http://www.taron.de/Storage/Images/Demo/Zombie_basics.jpg
However, my main focus for this little "over-night" project was simply to see how the shading is coming together and add and finetune my stuff. The different image maps were a special kind of fun, since I opened everything up of to texture anything I would possibly want and played around. During the course of this I did far more than just painting textures and setting up some nodes, but we'll get to that...:cool:
...but I did spend a joyful time in photoshop,- selfindulging -, I guess!? So much fun if You know what You want and just the idea of being able to texture these special things is like...YES!

The displacement came into play at the very end, because I wasn't even intending on using displacement, it wasn't the initial motive. It just happend to come to my attention again...SWITCH...ufff...yeaheeyesss....fun!
I actually just wanted to put a bit of color and a bump on it to see what it looks like with different shading principles:

http://www.taron.de/Storage/Images/Demo/52Minute_Head_01.jpg


And that silicon look made me so exstatic that I just couldn't stop!

(I hereby decided that I don't particularely like those smilies here...the big grin :D looks more like constipation or a brick on the foot) :p

[Taron333]

Originally posted by noen
the texturing is fantastic!

however, the nasal cavity is incorrect and there is no skull bone visible above the upper gum line but the intent is to show off the displacement shaders so these are only details - the skin looks kind of hard and plastic to me

after checking their site i can see a different render, though i still dont care much for the nose, i'd love to see this animated!

brenda

HAHAHA, Thanx, that's sweet and funny! :applause:
I hope You don't believe that I was trying to show a realistic human being!:D
I've done a bit too many of those in the past and wouldn't consider that particularely fun. So You may expect quite a few funny noses, ears, eyes and lips from me in the futur. But I hope this will motivate You to make them just the way You enjoy them best and share that with everyone then. I'm looking forward to it.
But more than anything, I hope You can look past the fact that this is not exactly skin and realize that You can get exactly that if You like to. Studio 2.0 will leave little excuse to why one couldn't do realistic skin. I will, encouraged by You, see that I make a demonstration for that, too. And yeah, maybe I make an exception and see that I do some serious cavities for that as well! :buttrock:

:)

Thanx, Brenda and really understand this as really affectionate, I'm serious!

[DoLeeP]

whoo looks great studio I will download the demoV to try it

[Taron333]

Originally posted by Emmanuel
Taron is excellent no doubt, but actually this head looks very similiar to his mage head he did years ago, or like this : http://www.taron.de/Funny.htm

So I wouldn't take those 57 minutes too seriously, he probably does it in that time, but when You do/use the same base geometry over and over again, You get quick....

I appologize for making You write such a message and also find it both flattering and insulting at the same time. But You don't have to be ashamed nor should You be angry after reading what I'm writing. Besides, You are putting salt on a wound that I'm trying to overcome for most of my life: Natural Style Inflexibility. If I actually spend time on something with a lot of care and specific agenda towards the style I actually can grow a bit out of myself, but when I do quick 3D sketches of that kind like this "Zombie" it easily happens that my style breaks through. Most of the work I have exposed on my website shows only quick work, nothing I really spend time on...so it all looks very much just like I intuitively do it. It's really not easy to overcome. Just today my wife pulled out an old photograph of myself which totally freaked me out. I was around 23 back then, I believe, and I was white as the walls and so incredibly skinny, I did actually look just like my freaking creatures. I never realized that as much as now. It is bizarre, but makes a lot of sense at the same time, confirming what I was always telling about artists. They basically extend their own anatomy, whether immediately visible or hidden by the results of a wrong diet, into their work, particularely when it comes to character design. Amusing enough, it's kinda like dogs and their owners in a more comical sort of way.

Anyway, just for You I have prepared a little breakdown of the stages of the model...but I'm too lazy to describe why I did what when....maybe some other time...

http://www.taron.de/Storage/Images/Demo/MinuteHead_progression.jpg

All the best to You, and who knows, maybe one day I'll get to show You or You catch one of my demos....:beer:

Taron

[Labuzz]

Hey Taron,
I have a little question for you about modeling. Do you stay in subpatch mode from start to finish ? At a certain point ( when you reach a good amount of geometry density => you can atcually see see the volumes without supatch on ) dont you model without subpatch on? I just try to know if you consider also the "edge modeling " workflow ( Bay ray ).
Another thing about topology, when I look at your meshs I feel that there's some sort of chao. Are you really trying to have a mesh that you can deform in any directions? ( Or maybe its just the start of the modeling process ) .

[ghopper]

Originally posted by Taron333
Besides, You are putting salt on a wound that I'm trying to overcome for most of my life: Natural Style Inflexibility.
I guess this is a common problem amongst audio / visual creative people. But rather than trying to 'overcome' it, why not try to build on it. "Creative evolution" takes its time =) Only means we have to be patient and keep pushing limits. But you're right, it's not easy.


All the best to You, and who knows, maybe one day I'll get to show You or You catch one of my demos.

Even better, next time you model something, video capture it and upload a time lapse video, but be prepared for hefty bandwidth costs ;)

Anyway, I hope such comments as posted earlier aren't too insulting, with the effect of reducing your visits to cgtalk. I don't think it was Emanuell's intention to be insulting ( It's just communication for you ). Maybe he will explain what he was trying to say.

Remember, you're an inspiring force for a lot of 3D artists, especially for artists back from LW's early days ;)

When I saw you join cgtalk it made me :bounce: , so in that sense, I'm looking forward to read and see more of your new stuff :beer:

[Taron333]

Originally posted by Labuzz
...Are you really trying to have a mesh that you can deform in any directions? ( Or maybe its just the start of the modeling process ) .

Absolutely well observed. For some of You this answer of mine will explain also the fast modeling time: NOPE!
I totally disregarded animation during the modeling of this head.
I did some changes to get a more smooth surface into the metanurbs, but that was solely for the rendering curvature, not for animation. Usually that is not too far off either, but in this case, again, not for that purpose.

However, Bay and I pretty much discovered the same rules way back when, but in Mirai modeling is very different from Lightwave. I personally did not discover "edge-loops" for them being loops, but rather discovered the nature of subpatches and how I use it to build the shape I'm looking for and to make it so that it deforms along it's own nature in the way I want it to.
That's why I always found the term "edge loop" somewhat inappropriate. Those edges do not necessarily loop at all, but describe curves that blend into other curves in the most continuing way possible so the never find a hard end to their flow unless it is really ment. Now in the model above You'll find quite a few of those ends....and You can give them a roman name: "Neglectorius", "Ignorandor" and "Wotthahecktor". Hehe...heah...well....anyway....Have I mentioned that I love Bay's work?!? Didn't get to say that in a while....it's been time!

And just to round it all up, preparing a mesh for animation can take exponentially longer, particularely because this kind of mesh evolves during the cause of animation. This is by the way another reason for why I don't like morphs off the bet and only decide to make use of them, once I'm really done with all of what really wanted and have my bone rigging already done...
...whereby I did a few funny morph tests not too long ago...

Well, I hope that was enough of an answer and I'm really glad You brought that up, too....I'm desperately trying to give people and easier time to burn their ideas of me claiming nonsense regarding modeling time. The major thing that annoys me about it is my own stupidity of leaving that information in there. Initially that was just for myself as I thought of keeping track of it, since that stuff usually never leaves my drives....now it became like bragging....but so many people know me already anyway and it would be kind of redundant to rubb some irrelevant nonsense like that in. I've been doing that same crap for nearly 10 years now, what's the big deal...yeah, I've gotten even quicker, fine, but have You ever seen a guy who sorts mail for 10 years....if it was about his speed of going through a chunk of mail, he probably looks like a superhuman, but in fact....he's sorting mail for 10 years dear god.... ...and that's pretty much me...
:hmm:
:D
(...see I'm making use of the pain in the grin's smile!)

Taron

[chikega]

Taron - you of all artists should not feel like you must justify the speed in which you model. Many people who have worked with you can vouch for you. I don't model as much as you but still can knock out a head model in about an hour save for the ears - so, I can easily see you modeling in much less time. In fact, I participated in a Speed Modeling Session (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132445) in which the topic was zombies - it was a lot of fun for sure. Lot's of different styles from cartoony to realistic and the time limit was 3 hours - you should check it out! :)

http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Silo/ZombieH.jpg

[Taron333]

Originally posted by ghopper

Anyway, I hope such comments as posted earlier aren't too insulting, with the effect of reducing your visits to cgtalk. I don't think it was Emanuell's intention to be insulting ( It's just communication for you ). Maybe he will explain what he was trying to say.


OH Don't You worry. The only reason for me to be silent at times now will simply be because I'm too busy. I made this day a very big exception and spend literally most of it on this forum and CGchannel. But I'll stick with You guys. Emanuell's contribution to it gives the pepper that makes this otherwise extremely sweet crowd the bite that makes it really tasty. As long as it is genuine and not just for the heck of being a smart-S I really enjoy to discuss anything as long as I have an answer.

As for the evolution of style, yeah, that's what it is all about, You know. With every attempt to grow out of it, one actually inevadably grows <period>. I think eventually it is save to say that this would be my motive to begin with, but it just so happened to be the most significant reason for me to advance and never find any full satisfaction in the present level of my work.
In regards to music, I'm kind of happy by now, because I find a certain kind of range that allows me to express most of my emotions and ideas fairly directly. (I'm actually doing that way longer than CG, so I it would be a whole other can of worms if I disclosed the moments it takes me to do a song...hahahaha....but I had some that took days, really!). Anyway, there, in the music, I'm actually just now really expanding my technical abilities, while in CG I can by now fully focus on expanding the technical possibilities, not my own...hehehe....how arrogant was that one...sorry...but it kinda feels that way. It's like when You learn to play piano, at some point You just know how to play it and then You can focus on the music itself. In CG it is almost the other way around. Once You're done with Your music, You're starting to upgrade Your piano! :wip: :p

And now You know what kept me on the forum for the entire day...
...I will practice finding ways to slim down my replies...hihihi...argh!

[Taron333]

Originally posted by chikega
....Speed Modeling Session in which the topic was zombies - it was a lot of fun for sure. Lot's of different styles from cartoony to realistic and the time limit was 3 hours - you should check it out! :)



KEWL! You should make a wicked bumpmap/displacement map for it...I think it has all the potential to look very good. While the ears could use a bit more attention...looks like You simply used too many "steps of subdivisions" to get to the ear, if that makes any sense. The mesh could blend more directly into the center section of the ear, that makes it far less seperated.

Anyway, this is a Messiah Thread....eeh...so easy to get side tracked. SO YEAH, it would be an awesome mesh for the next release to play with all of the texturing....You'll certainly be as exstatic about it then as I am now. Whether You like being in full control, or simply fully enjoying the simplicity in which You are presented with it. (eeek...what a strange sounding sentence...but that actually describes it pretty well!)


ANYWAY, because I never went for competing with speed, since that has not been my motive, I usually don't get a kick out of speed competitions....I like minimalism competitions, because I get a big kick out of getting the most out of the least....yet, as paradox as it is, I'm entirely fanatic with messiah...strange, too.
So yeah, still I'll check that stuff out, I'm always interested in things that expose the core of artists like fast creating!

THANX A LOT! For all of it!

:beer:

[Taron333]

OH MY GOD THose are AWESOME!!! HAHAHAHA!!!!! COOL...shi..I wonna make one, too, now...eh...crp...did one already, I guess.....ah...eh...hey, I wanted to make some simple examples for Messiah shading anyway....could do some comic stuff...damn there are some GREAT ONES in that speed zomie competition...really....freaking wonderful! I love the blue comic zombie and Nielsen did an awesome one, too....funny funny funny....thank You so much...:thumbsup:

[chikega]

Glad you enjoyed it Taron :)

I'm really excited about messiah 2.0 - can't wait to test out some of the new features - namely the new skin shader and displacement mapping.

You should really give some serious consideration in developing a DVD tutorial on your approaches to rigging and animating in messiah. There's really not much out there as far as tutorials are concerned. I believe your work colleague, grzegorz, put together the beginnings of a nice web based tutorial (http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/messiah_rig/index.htm). If you and him each created one or worked collaboratively - it would be sooo helpful for us solo artists which don't have the benefit of working in a creative milieu or such as CafeFx or Passion Pictures. I'm sure there are some production techniques that you have picked up in your many years of working with StationX, pmG and CafeFx.

Thanks again for being part of this community, Taron - it really is inspirational to be in the company of someone of your calibre.:)

[ghopper]

Originally posted by chikega
Glad you enjoyed it Taron :)
You should really give some serious consideration in developing a DVD tutorial on your approaches to rigging and animating in messiah.
...
it would be sooo helpful for us solo artists which don't have the benefit of working in a creative milieu or such as CafeFx or Passion Pictures.
...


I can only second that. A modeling DVD and a Messiah DVD, that would certainly help a few artists to 'evolve' a bit quicker :wip:

And I'm certain you would have no problem at all selling a few DVDs, like a few thousand ;)

But I guess the important factor here is time again.

[Sil3]

Right now i would be pleased to see even a small timelapse avi modeling session :thumbsup:

Of course that a DVD would be :buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:

[Spc]

WOW ! :eek:
:beer:

That's absolutely amazing !!!

:surprised

[Kahenraz]

How did you model that head in 18 minutes. :surprised

I'm still working on my portfolio piece and have everything set except for detail tweaking and the hands and head. I've spent hours and hours and still can't get it to look the way I want it to.

[Taron333]

Hey, don't worry, I'll try to explain it, but showing is always the infinitely better way. You've probably seen all kinds of modeling tutorials, yet, or demonstrations. Essentially looking at them gets You at best an idea of what it could be like, but not enough information to really go about doing the same thing for Yourself.

When I'm finished with my book, it will have just as much artistic learning material as technical....actually probably even more.

Understanding the basic techniques required to model is relatively simple. The great news are, for my way of modeling You may only need less than 10 different tools. Box, smoothshift, stretch, drag points, spin quads, (special "tricks": collapse, merge), some of the magnet type tools (pole, vortex, magnet)...that's about it.
Mastering them is really easy. Dealing with the mesh is a bit more of an experience driven skill.
The most essential incredients to fast modeling is a very little amount of fear ("Fear nothing!"), strong imagination that has also no issue to adapt...eh...I guess that would make it adaptive imagination. You've gotta see what it is that You want and where exactly it is supposed to be. Then You simply go for it, create it real quick and then make it work with the surrounding geometry.
Don't ever cut into the surface unless it is all the way through and You know exactly what You need it for (fingers, arms). Don't make polygons Yourself, let smoothshift create them for You.
That's most basically what enables someone to do 18minute heads! No fear, no rigidity to any predetermined image, no hesitation to experiment.

There...the book is written....at least the technical section...well...mostly...ok a few more pages about that and the "special tricks"! :buttrock:

So there You go....
...hope that gave You somewhat of an idea...it's hard to describe!

Good luck,

Taron

[ghopper]

Hi Kahenranz,

if you want to watch a similar model workflow like Taron described, you might want to have a look at following DVD:

DVD Lightwave Modeling Tutorial ( by Carnera3D ) (http://www.carnera3d-seminars.de/dvd_product01.html)

I think Andras ( the author ) uses only a few tools and does box modeling as well.

[Taron333]

...I should check that out myself, because he's not only one of my best and old friends, but also one of my first students. I would assume that it shows You quite a bit of what I would show, yet, I have no idea....gotta see it...I didn't realize he made a modeling DVD...naughty. :wip:

Anyway, chances are it is pretty good...go check it out, too!:D

[ghopper]

Originally posted by Taron333
...I should check that out myself, because he's not only one of my best and old friends, but also one of my first students.

Yes, I think he mentioned he learned a few tricks from you ;)

But we still need an original Taron modeling and messiah DVD ;)

[JAS]

Hey Taron,
Glad to see something new of yours! Your work is always inspiring. :buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock: and it's been a while for me since I've been inspired.

After seeing these renders, Most of my curiousity is for the textures you've painted, material properties, and most of all your lighting setup. I've always been curious about your lighting techniques and photoshoping. The color map looks quick but I'm curious about the other maps. I wish you weren't kidding about your book. Heheheheheh! =P

In my heart, I hope that you and the PMG can force major studios to take notice that Messiah should be in their pipeline too. Every member of the group is so talented!
Best Wishes,
Jason Stempel

PS: Please explain PRON's Rig? I admire his neck deformation.




:thumbsup:

[Taron333]

...gimme a moment...it's gonna come!:thumbsup:

[ghopper]

Originally posted by Taron333
...gimme a moment...it's gonna come!:thumbsup:

Wicked :thumbsup: That's all I wanted to hear :wavey:

[carnera]

OMg....how could i miss that thread :)

yes.... I learned a lot from Taron...( and I am sure i will do continue...no..! i KNOW i will still learn a lot from him... :)

i remember when we first meet. that was long long ago....back in the good old lw 5 times.. :)

[lmilton]

Originally posted by carnera
OMg....how could i miss that thread :)

yes.... I learned a lot from Taron...( and I am sure i will do continue...no..! i KNOW i will still learn a lot from him... :)

i remember when we first meet. that was long long ago....back in the good old lw 5 times.. :)

For those who are wondering what happened to Taron, he's swamped with a production project. He's using messiah:studio for the entire project, of course, so there should be some great stuff to see from him in the future.

When he's freed up again, he'll be back here to show some renders from other projects and provide feedback.

-lyle

[Emmanuel]

Hi folks !

Geez, of course I didn't want to be a heretic or commit a sacrilege :)
And would everybody please stop calling me Emmanuell, I am *not*
a soft-porn starlet, thank You very much :)
Just one *l* and the end will do enough ;)
Hey Taron ! Thanks for showing the different modelling stages, very cool !

[lmilton]

Originally posted by Emmanuel
And would everybody please stop calling me Emmanuell, I am *not*
a soft-porn starlet, thank You very much :)

:scream: :D

[chikega]

Actually, it would be "Emmanuelle" in French. So, you'd be perhaps somewhere in between a man and women with "Emmanuell" - androgenous. :)

I dated a French Canadian girl up in Quebec and her name was Emmanuelle. Everyone, in the USA, had fun with her name when she came to visit. :)

[Emmanuel]

>Actually, it would be "Emmanuelle" in French. So, you'd be perhaps >somewhere in between a man and women with "Emmanuell" - >androgenous."

All I can quote is:
"Am I a boy or a lady,
I don't know which." (Frank Zappa)

Thanks Chikega, I am french, I know that an -le would be all I needed
to become a girl.

>I dated a French Canadian girl up in Quebec and her name was >Emmanuelle. Everyone, in the USA, had fun with her name when she >came to visit.

Okay, okay, okay, I see, before this becomes a screenplay for "American Pie IV" let's focus back on Taron's awesome techniques, please :)

[chikega]

Originally posted by lmilton
For those who are wondering what happened to Taron, he's swamped with a production project. He's using messiah:studio for the entire project, of course, so there should be some great stuff to see from him in the future.

When he's freed up again, he'll be back here to show some renders from other projects and provide feedback.

-lyle

It would be so inspirational to see how messiah was used in CafeFx's production pipeline. I know there are NDA's in place during production, but, there are so many things they have done in the past with messiah that we never hear of.

I'm just wondering because you see all these other companies showing off production work. Eyeon (http://www.eyeonline.com/Web/EyeonWeb/default.aspx) is a great example - they seem to showcase feature film work on a consistent basis and how Digital Fusion was instrumental in their success? Why can't pmG do the same - it would be in pmG's best interest to show that messiah is actually used in film projects. What do you think, Lyle?

We need to get the boys from Passion Pictures and CafeFX to show off some of their goods.

Edit:The boys at Passion Pictures and Asylum 3d recently strutted their stuff with Cat Woman. CafeFX, it's your turn now! Taron, Grzegorz, Akira.

[Julez4001]

My middle name is Emanuel.
Julian Emanuel

[gsuttor]

Can we have a messiah banner going up the top there on CGtalk, everytime I visit this forum I'm confronted by an XSI or Maya banner and it annoy's me (a little).

Let's have a competition to see who can come up with the best banner slogan for messiah 2.0 :applause:

ON THE FIRST DAY, GOD CREATED THE EARTH, THE MOON AND THE STARS!

ON THE SECOND DAY HE CREATED MAN

ON THE THIRD DAY HE JUST COULDNT GET MAN'S WALK CYCLE WORKING.... SO HE CREATED.

MESSIAH! :bowdown:

AND ALL WAS BEAUTIFULLY ANIMATED FROM THAT DAY FORTH.

NB: my knowledge of official biblical act's of creation are somewhat flawed in that I dont know any.

[OZI_Jason]

I think the banner might be a compulsory banner add that’s force-fed to us courtesy of cgtalk.

The messiah guys might need to part with some sweet cash to put an ad there, however they should probably use the cash to take their neglected partners out for a gourmet dinner as compensation for their time consuming affair with 'messiah' :)

Here my dodgy Ad suggestion :p

And the messiah said "father.. forgive the other animators they no not what they animate with"

eh-hum... back to the salt mines :blush:

[fwtep]

Originally posted by Emmanuel
Hi folks !

Geez, of course I didn't want to be a heretic or commit a sacrilege :)
And would everybody please stop calling me Emmanuell, I am *not*
a soft-porn starlet, thank You very much :)
Just one *l* and the end will do enough ;)
Hey Taron ! Thanks for showing the different modelling stages, very cool !

I thought E-manual is what messiah comes with.
:)
Fred

[chikega]

Good one, Fred - hehe. :p

[ThomasHelzle]

For an upcomming job I had to test the posibilities in messiah:studio 2.0 beta. This image uses my "The Art of Noise (http://www.screendream.de/The_Art_of_Noise.htm)" shaders and a lot of the new renderstuff. Everything is rendered with messiah, only a little grain and glow is added by hand in photoshop.
1024x786 took 6:12 on a P4 3.2 Ghz with 2pass antialiasing, fog, DOF, translucency, subpixeldisplacement and two spotlights. It is a first test, there will be particles and stuff flowing around later...
I hope you like it. :)

http://www.screendream.de/files/Zellen_v003.jpg

[MoodyB]

Looks excellent :)

[chikega]

Lyle said we couldn't say anything - but that we could post images, so....

Images speak louder than words. Look at this simple test scene that Julez4001 and I worked on:

http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/SSS_candle_shadow.jpg

And then look at my study on G2 here:

http://www.3ddmd.com/G2_backshadows.htm

If there's any confusion, the sphere is casting a shadow on the candle-like SSS object. The first sphere is opaque, the second 50% transparent and the third has an IOR of 1.5 (glass). These shadows are raytraced.

:D

[chikega]

Did I say those shadows were raytraced? :)

[tuna]

Wow, are those shadows raytraced?

[PaulNewman]

What's the idea with messiah:Render? Is it meant to contend with Brazil, VRay, FinalRender, Mental Ray, etc. in a production pipeline of a professional studio doing animated feature work or is it simply an amazing renderer for CG artists for illustration work, the odd animation test, hobbyists, etc.?

If I understand correctly, messiah:Render is not stand-alone, but integrated with messiah:Animate. Would this mean that messiah becomes the 3D platform where models (polygons + subD's), hard and softbody dynamics, cloth, hair/fur, liquids, etc. will have to come together before being piped into the renderer?

I've been watching messiah for quite a while now, and as I'm personally getting closer to selecting a suitable CGI film pipeline, I'm trying to be as open minded as possible about what new tools can ease the pain in my pipeline.

Using the messiah:Animate connection to 3DSMax gives access to a whole bunch of rendering solutions as well as other effects plugins to solve liquids, hair/fur, cloth, etc. So my post is simply to try and figure out where messiah:Studio fits into all this on a professional level.

[lmilton]

What's the idea with messiah:Render? Is it meant to contend with Brazil, VRay, FinalRender, Mental Ray, etc. in a production pipeline of a professional studio doing animated feature work or is it simply an amazing renderer for CG artists for illustration work, the odd animation test, hobbyists, etc.?

If I understand correctly, messiah:Render is not stand-alone, but integrated with messiah:Animate. Would this mean that messiah becomes the 3D platform where models (polygons + subD's), hard and softbody dynamics, cloth, hair/fur, liquids, etc. will have to come together before being piped into the renderer?

I've been watching messiah for quite a while now, and as I'm personally getting closer to selecting a suitable CGI film pipeline, I'm trying to be as open minded as possible about what new tools can ease the pain in my pipeline.

Using the messiah:Animate connection to 3DSMax gives access to a whole bunch of rendering solutions as well as other effects plugins to solve liquids, hair/fur, cloth, etc. So my post is simply to try and figure out where messiah:Studio fits into all this on a professional level.
messiah:studio 2 is a full-blown production-centered render & animation system. The new renderer is already being used in production, and you'll learn more about this as the studios/users make this public. And considering that we just released it doday, you'll also be able to get greater m:s2 feedback as the users familiarize themselves with the renderer and other great features.

m:s & m:a are definately gaining momentum, and you will likely see hair/fur, rigid body dynamics, and fluid solutions very soon. However, I can't promise any timeline on those, and I have no idea of the timeline on your project.

With that in mind, depending on the size of your production, you still can't go wrong with messiah:studio because you can still plug the animate portion into 3ds max and other apps. The studio price is not much more than that of messiah:animate. And since you get unlimited render nodes*, you have access to another (rapidly developing) professional render alternative at a very competitive price.

As I'd mentioned in the past we are just as serious about the renderer and render mode, in general, as we are about animate. messiah:studio 2 clearly demonstrates this. But for us, it is only the beginning.:)

If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to post.

-lyle
-pmG

* you need to purchase 3rd party network rendering software such as Butterfly Net Render, or create your own custom solution with our renderHOST API/SDK included with the release.

[tjnyc]

Lyle,

Are there any plans to have some custom shader examples with the Render API so that interested users could take a look how to create shaders for messiah Render API?


Cheers,

[fwtep]

Lyle,

Are there any plans to have some custom shader examples with the Render API so that interested users could take a look how to create shaders for messiah Render API?


Cheers,There are a couple included already, I believe.

Fred

[lmilton]

There are a couple included already, I believe.

Fred
That's true. Taron created the BasicShader... which is *far* from basic, using the API. This is a shader that completely replaces the renderer's internal shading via the material's RADIANCE input.

Unfortunately, Tony, there won't be any source code released for that plug due to some proprietary algorithms. But if you take a look at the notes in messiah_shader.h, you'll see examples of how to handle illumination.

Also, I'll do whatever I can to walk you through the process, until we can post some source. Post here and/or in pmGDev if you run into problems.

-lyle

[tjnyc]

That's great thank you, the notes some good info. Source codes would help, and any primers or/and step by step would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping to start prototyping some shaders first by scripting before committing to compiling. I start reviewing the related text and I'll bug you guys again later.


Cheers,

[lmilton]

Lyle,

Are there any plans to have some custom shader examples with the Render API so that interested users could take a look how to create shaders for messiah Render API?


Cheers,
I replied to your post assuming that you weren't interested in "basic shaders or operators", but rather replacing the internal shading with your own custom shading algorithms.

If you're interested in writing basic shaders/operators, you should have already downloaded the FogBasic example from Zoogono to which I directed you in our last conversation. There are also a couple of simple examples included with the release.

Can you clarify?

-lyle

[PaulNewman]

messiah:studio 2 is a full-blown production-centered render & animation system. The new renderer is already being used in production, and you'll learn more about this as the studios/users make this public. And considering that we just released it doday, you'll also be able to get greater m:s2 feedback as the users familiarize themselves with the renderer and other great features.

m:s & m:a are definately gaining momentum, and you will likely see hair/fur, rigid body dynamics, and fluid solutions very soon. However, I can't promise any timeline on those, and I have no idea of the timeline on your project.

With that in mind, depending on the size of your production, you still can't go wrong with messiah:studio because you can still plug the animate portion into 3ds max and other apps. The studio price is not much more than that of messiah:animate. And since you get unlimited render nodes*, you have access to another (rapidly developing) professional render alternative at a very competitive price.

As I'd mentioned in the past we are just as serious about the renderer and render mode, in general, as we are about animate. messiah:studio 2 clearly demonstrates this. But for us, it is only the beginning.:)

Thanks. This has helped me understand where messiah is for the time being. I am cautiously excited. The good thing is that for now massiah can be plugged into other apps for a complete pipeline while character essentials like hair and advanced cloth may still be a way off for a full messiah pipeline. Learn one character animation app and plug into any pipeline - cool. Unlimited render nodes, an excellent renderer tightly integrated with the 3D app - nice. However, let's hope 3rd party plug developers jump to it! Perhaps they are but I just don't know about it.

[PaulNewman]

. . . I have no idea of the timeline on your project.
My project is most likely 6 months from production start and from there, how long ever it takes us to get to final render phase (probably another year or more after production start). If we wait with setting up the rendering pipeline until later (knowing we can fall back to Max or something else) we can perhaps still see what we need in messiah in good time.

[PaulNewman]

OK. So I've just read m2:studio's write-up and I'm now more than cautiously excited! If I want to work with messiah in my pipeline, and I'm looking at CG characters, hair, cloth and GI rendering for high-end animation (min of 2K HD resolution), then my pipeline could look something like this --- ?
modeling : Silo3D, ZBrush
animation : m:animate
dynamics : m:animate
particles : m:animate
cloth : m:animate (softbody dynamics)??
hair : ??
rendering : m:render with ButterflyNet render
Can this work or are cloth and hair still serious holes in the pipe? Can these holes be plugged relatively soon? Something on the way?

The above will be such a nice CG character production environment, much more lightweight and dedicated to story telling than the huge overheads on other big apps.

[PaulNewman]

Syflex cloth perhaps?

[dobermunk]

Take a look at PointOven by Mark Wilson:
http://www.ef9.com/ef9/PO.htm

Your pipeline could look like this:

- model in x
- rig in messiah, including softbody, dynamics, etc
- animate in messiah
- export and do hair, cloth etc in y
(or sasquatch in LW, sycloth in Maya)
- render in combination of a, b and messiah (great GI, fast subsurface) depending on shot requirements and software strengths
- comnposite using G (yeah, I'm running out of variable letters ;-)

>cloth and hair still serious holes in the pipe?
Holes, yeah. Serious, no. I wouldn't jump into a hard-deadlined project with these just now. No idea if anything is in development.
But cameras can be brought over fairly painlessly, PointOven may include a Camera baker to make it even easier soon.

We just did a production, and from 6 animators who had never worked with messiah only one was discouraged. The others were very enthusiastic. Average cross-over time was 2 to 3 days learn time (just animation and key management, rigs were finished).

[ThomasHelzle]

One thing you should be sure to include in your workflow is PointOvenPro (www.ef9.com) from Mark Wilson. With it you can "pointscan" your animation in messiah, load it in (for instance) maya, do cloth simulation there (syflex if you want) and "pointscan" the animated cloth back out again to be used by the PointReader im messiah.
There is also a plugin for Lightwave and support for more applications is announced.

This should give you a solution for everything that is geometry based.
So I think there is only hair missing in your list :-)

Edit: David, you were faster :p

[PaulNewman]

One thing you should be sure to include in your workflow is PointOvenPro (www.ef9.com (http://www.ef9.com)) from Mark Wilson.
Checked it out, thanks Thomas. Looks good. Is the process laborious, or relatively efficient inside a production workflow? Imagine having Maya just to do cloth and then take everything out to be rendered back in Messiah or somewhere else! Sounds like an overkill, yet if it must be done and there's no other way . . . But something like that will most likely force messiah to be used only as the animation tool inside a pipeline where effects (cloth, hair, etc.) and GI rendering are handled through Max plugs. If messiah was sufficiently complete in those areas (cloth and hair), then there's no reason a full character pipe shouldn't be focused around messiah from start to finish.

Hash Animation Master has hair. Don't know how good, but it's got it with dynamics.

[ThomasHelzle]

Since Mark Wilson - the developer of PO - works as TD at PassionPictures where it is a main tool in the pipeline, you can be sure it is very simple to use and rocksolid.

One example:
If you bake out your animation again after an update, and someone else is already using it in a Lightwave scene, just scrubbing the timeline in LW is enough to use the updated version. Brilliant.

Let's see what pmG and 3D parties are comming up with!

[dobermunk]

Hi Thomas, got up early this morning ;-]

Paul, we just had a Max (animatics), messiah (rig, aniamte), Max (render) pipeline. With models from LW and many particles and FX renders from LW, too. And we almost had Maya in there for one shot.

Going through numerous packages is really starting to get doable.

[PaulNewman]

Your pipeline could look like this:

- model in x
- rig in messiah, including softbody, dynamics, etc
- animate in messiah
- export and do hair, cloth etc in y
(or sasquatch in LW, sycloth in Maya)
- render in combination of a, b and messiah (great GI, fast subsurface) depending on shot requirements and software strengths
- comnposite using G (yeah, I'm running out of variable letters ;-)

Thanks for your pipeline. It does look a little 'messy' although I fully understand the practical requirements for this. I was hoping for a more integrated solution.


I wouldn't jump into a hard-deadlined project with these just now.
How about jumping into a soft deadline situation with these? Going the messiah route looks sure even if later there are no cloth and hair solutions soon enough. Do animation and see if the holes in the pipe close and allow a fully integrated solution! While we model, rig and animate, pmg is working on messiah and others are developing plugs!

[ThomasHelzle]

Exactly how I would do it :thumbsup:

[dobermunk]

Soft-deadline? Gee, I love those!

If there's no fixed date, sure. You always have a 'messy' solution.
If the priority is designing a pipeline for numerous, similar chars that
you are expecting to have refined even after rigging and animation,
messiah is a hot candidate.
It's also great for working with outsourced teams, partially due to
formats like .fxs (referencing external files along paths) and .mpj
(compressed project files with internal files that retain 'ghost' path references).

[pelos]

is there any upgrade in the soft dynamic deform?

?=)

[capt chuck]

One quick question (and certainly not a deal breaker... my only real decision is to upgrade to animate 5 or go for the full upgrade to studio 2):

Is the documentation in the new version in html only or is a pdf version available (I really do like to have a hard copy to take away from the computer and the html doesn't print so nicely)?

Thanks.

[chikega]

The help files are in a Compiled HTML format (*.chm) - it's on par with most F1-style windows help files and has an immensely better Seach engine than the previous docs.

http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/HelpFile.jpg

[capt chuck]

Thanks for the info chikega. Going to the .chm format will be a great improvement for searching as you mention and I would guess they will print a bit cleaner than the old format as well.

[EvilGnome]

I've gotta compliment the PmG team for improving the layout of the documentation.

Much better, well done! :thumbsup:

Oh, and they don't seem to crash the 3D software like some other 3D apps we wont mention...cough!.. cough! max.. cough! Arrhumf! :)

[Wegg]

Unsticking this one. I think everyone knows 2.0 is out now. . . probably don't have to keep this "stuck".

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