Hey guys...look at the messiah render section up top.

[jipe]

Yeah, support for Zbrush displacement maps is going to be awesome.. here's a quote from Lyle on the mailing list:
As far as the upgrades, the studio upgrade is free (for existing studio customers;}), but animate is not free. I believe there will also be a limited time reduced animate->studio upgrade. When everything's ready to go, we'll post more info here, on CGTak, and on our site.

[lmilton]

That's right, the studio->studio upgrade is free. So, for those of you that were thinking of purchasing studio but decided to hold off because you don't want to pay for an upgrade, fear not:D

-lyle

[chikega]

Thanks Lyle for keeping us posted :)

[Nemoid]

So i think i could post here some questions about the rendering in messiah studio without starting a new thread. How is the rendering compared to Lw one? does it supports a fast GI render? i'd like to see some scene comparison between the 2 renderings just out of curiosity.

[Ejecta]

Will particles render now?

[mg3d]

That's right, the studio->studio upgrade is free. So, for those of you that were thinking of purchasing studio but decided to hold off because you don't want to pay for an upgrade, fear not

I don't want to make waves or anything but let me get this straight. If the studio upgrade contains bug fixes (not dealing with the renderer) and the update is free to studio owners but those same bug fixes would be in the animate upgrade and that update is supposed to be paid? Or will there be a free patch to fix some of the current bugs?

Just wondering...
-mG

oh yeah, BTW Taron, nice renders :)

[lmilton]

Originally posted by Nemoid
So i think i could post here some questions about the rendering in messiah studio without starting a new thread. How is the rendering compared to Lw one? does it supports a fast GI render? i'd like to see some scene comparison between the 2 renderings just out of curiosity.

Fast is relative, of course. The current release does support different GI flavors and churns out some respectable times. I think you'll find some examples on our site:

http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/messiahstudio.htm

The next rev kills a few of the bottlenecks that slowed rendering with multiple objects as well as adding some general speed improvements and fixes. We haven't done any real benchmarking vs. LW, so it's too soon to give concrete info on render comparisons.

However, it would be best for others (outside of pmG) to run those comparison benchmarks as they will be perceived to be more objective.

Thanx for you interest:)

-lyle

ps: Note that all of Taron's tests use no GI, which does contribute to those fast render times.

[Julez4001]

Lyle..you guys thought about asking to work with worley for a messiah Fprime version.


Man ...just saying thiose two thing sin the same sentences gives me shivers/ Brrrrrrrrrrrr!

[lmilton]

Originally posted by mg3d
I don't want to make waves or anything but let me get this straight. If the studio upgrade contains bug fixes (not dealing with the renderer) and the update is free to studio owners but those same bug fixes would be in the animate upgrade and that update is supposed to be paid? Or will there be a free patch to fix some of the current bugs?

Just wondering...
-mG

oh yeah, BTW Taron, nice renders :)

I knew it was just a matter of time before this kind of discussion was sparked. May as well get it out of the way now.

Well, *every* upgrade of *every* commercial software product contains bug fixes. If you were paying for bug fixes *only* then that would be a major problem. But of course, that is not the case. Along with the bug fixes, you get new features.

The alternative I've witnessed within this and other industries is to leave out the bug fixes, and just add new features to get the upgrade revenue, then build in the fixes in a "b" release after everyone complains. That's not a very ethical method, at least in my view.

An alternate method is to charge an annual maintenance fee that covers bug fixes and features. While that is gauranteed revenue for a given company, it doesn't currently fit our company and the relationship we have with our user base.

We give updates that often contain many new *unannounced features* as well as bug fixes. We do this free of charge for what we consider maintenance updates. When scheduling dictates that we must plan for the next (paid) versions, any outstanding bugs that we can address are targeted for that next release... along with all the new features.

No matter what, development isn't free... even if it involves fixing bugs. Even so, I'm happy with our current model because I feel that it serves our users best. Of course, some will never be happy with this, but so far most have been appreciative & understanding.

Take care,

-lyle

ps: studio->studio is free mainly because we feel that we haven't completed our vision for the original messiah:render product, to date. We've just gotten to a point with this next studio rev where we feel the product is near complete. So, the free studio->studio upgrades will definately come to an end very soon;)

ps: Mike, don't take any of this as negative toward you... I'm just giving info.

[lmilton]

Originally posted by Ejecta
Will particles render now?

Yes, but I believe that work is still being done on particle rendering. We'll have to let you know about this one as it unfolds.

-lyle

[lmilton]

Originally posted by Julez4001
Lyle..you guys thought about asking to work with worley for a messiah Fprime version.


Man ...just saying thiose two thing sin the same sentences gives me shivers/ Brrrrrrrrrrrr!

Hmm.. that *would* be cool. He certainly would have a good deal more access, control, and ease of development in messiah's Plugin API.

I think that Steve only responds to user demand, though. If there is enough demand, he'd do the port. This is true for Sas, as well. If he decides to port, we'd certainly work with him so he could do it in short order. Really, if he did this for LW, he'd be able to get it done very quickly for messiah.

So, if you want Fprime and/or Sas for messiah, be sure to let him know.

-lyle

[mg3d]

ps: Mike, don't take any of this as negative toward you... I'm just giving info.

LOL.
Lyle, don't worry no offense taken, I just figured I'd raise the question politely before things start turning into rumblings.

thanks for the honest reply.

-mG

[Ejecta]

Is the C4D connection being upgraded to be more stable?

[Julez4001]

Lyle ..if their are outstanding bug fixes maybe like host connections..I am sure you guys can have an isolated patch addressing thise concerns..once again not my battle.....just giving an alternative perspective. a downloadable .dll or .exe overwrite should fix those concerns.

BTW...HOW'S "Volumetric Translucency and Subsurface scattering" IN m:s 2.0

[ljilekor]

What are all those other features? Rendering, ok. But there are still some animators using messiah too.

:drool:

[THUR]

Even so, I'm happy with our current model because I feel that it serves our users best.

Could not agree more, since I am working with messiah for many years now. It simply rules!

but ... In our current production(s) here at Grid where we use messiah mainly 4 high-end animations ( and less 4 rendering or shading)
we would like to know if main problems are solved?

'important' stuff like:

=saving expressions, slider channels working correctly with the dopekeys (when dragging a dopekey all slider channels should be moved, not just one!), on and off flagging of objects in multiple groups, incorrect tangents on saved .mot, inacurate motionclip baking (quantize!) .. and so on

you know, the small things that makes a animating workflow much faster and more fluid!

k'ben in ieder geval content daddet vooruit gaat!
(glad to see thing are being pushed forward)

much respect
:buttrock:


THUR

[Nemoid]

Originally posted by lmilton
Fast is relative, of course. The current release does support different GI flavors and churns out some respectable times. I think you'll find some examples on our site:

http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/messiahstudio.htm

The next rev kills a few of the bottlenecks that slowed rendering with multiple objects as well as adding some general speed improvements and fixes. We haven't done any real benchmarking vs. LW, so it's too soon to give concrete info on render comparisons.

However, it would be best for others (outside of pmG) to run those comparison benchmarks as they will be perceived to be more objective.

Thanx for you interest:)

-lyle

ps: Note that all of Taron's tests use no GI, which does contribute to those fast render times.

Thanx for your reply, and for the link lyle. I like Taron's renderings very much, and i did know and understand they were not GI renderings. another thing i was a bit curious to know, its about the Lw-zbrush messiah workflow. since uv maps bring some problem in Lw and the displacement is not so good working into it, i wanted to hear from some user wich uses these 3 apps together and want to share some tips/workflow to obtain a great work.
another question is if Messiah renderer supports sub pixel displacement or not and in this case if the intentions will go towards this kinda support.
thanx!!

[chikega]

Originally posted by Julez4001
BTW...HOW'S "Volumetric Translucency and Subsurface scattering" IN m:s 2.0

By the looks of Taron's renders - I can see some SSS involvement. I can't wait to test out the new skin shader in m:s 2.0 :)

[lmilton]

Originally posted by Nemoid
Thanx for your reply, and for the link lyle. I like Taron's renderings very much, and i did know and understand they were not GI renderings. another thing i was a bit curious to know, its about the Lw-zbrush messiah workflow. since uv maps bring some problem in Lw and the displacement is not so good working into it, i wanted to hear from some user wich uses these 3 apps together and want to share some tips/workflow to obtain a great work.
another question is if Messiah renderer supports sub pixel displacement or not and in this case if the intentions will go towards this kinda support.
thanx!!

I know that there are messiah:studio 1.5 users out there that use Zbrush to create geometry and maps. From what I've been told, the workflow is really simple:

1. model & UV map in Zbrush
2. export to .obj with embedded UVs
3. export your image maps
4. load the object in messiah
5. add a texturemap shader to the object's surface material (if it doesn't already exist)
6. load the image map into that texturemap shader
7. choose UV mapping type on that shader and choose the appropriete UV map for that object.

With some object formats (LW 6 > .lwo) steps 5 - 7 are performed automatically. I'm not too sure about .obj, though. But it's very easy to set up if the color, diffuse, or bump map isn't auto-detected.

With displacement in messiah:studio 2.0, you won't find a lot of people out there who can elaborate because it hasn't been released yet. However, the workflow is the same. You just need to feed the texturemap Color output into the Bump input. The Bump input serves double duty: Bump & Displace. You'll understand the coolness of this as you discover the program.

As far as subpixel displacement, when 2.0 is released it may not have "automatic" subdivision level displacement. Hmm... I guess that requires a little explanation:

m:s 2.0 has subdivision displacement. This means that you set a subdivision level for the displacement. This affords you many benifits, one being lower RAM consumption and speed (in some cases). One other major benefit is that the geometry can exist at a known subdivision level to allow the geometry to be traversed to create some interesting shading effects (mostly useful for shader plugin developers).

What you know to be "subpixel" is really <pixel sized subdivision. Meaning, it's still subdivision, but the subdivision level is determined by automatically by the "size" of the pixel. Of course, I'm oversimplifying it, but that the general idea.

So, m:s 2.0 has subdivision displacement, but you can mimic subpixel by simply setting the subdivision high enough so that fragments are encompassed in a pixel.

-lyle

ps: we're actually working on the automatic subdivision as we speak. We'd like to put it in the release, but that window may have passed. It will most likely appear in an update after release.

[chikega]

Thanks Lyle for sharing and clarifying the subpixel displacement mapping for us. Continuing along the same vein, and I know you guys are still plunged deep in getting 2.0 out the door - but has there been any consideration for normal mapping in m:s 2.x?

In any case, thanks again for working so hard to make this one of the best releases ever! And thanks for listening to our request for displacement mapping several months ago. :thumbsup:

[lmilton]

Originally posted by chikega
By the looks of Taron's renders - I can see some SSS involvement. I can't wait to test out the new skin shader in m:s 2.0 :)

You're correct. Taron is using transluceny shading in those images.

-lyle

[lmilton]

Originally posted by chikega
Thanks Lyle for sharing and clarifying the subpixel displacement mapping for us. Continuing along the same vein, and I know you guys are still plunged deep in getting 2.0 out the door - but has there been any consideration for normal mapping in m:s 2.x?

In any case, thanks again for working so hard to make this one of the best releases ever! And thanks for listening to our request for displacement mapping several months ago. :thumbsup:

On Normal mapping, yes & no. The new version does support normal mapping, and you don't need to do anything different when using TextureMap other than setting a Normal Map switch.

It all works great... as long as you don't rotate or use any point displacement effects on the model. The problem is that the map dictates the normal, but that normal isn't correct if the object's polygons become oriented differently or distorted.

Fortunately, Fori & I worked up some quick algorithms to address the problem, but they'll require more massaging. With what we're focusing on now, though, it's not possible for us to get it squared away before the release.

So it works, just not if you're thinking of using it for animated characters. But realistically, you'd use displacement OR normal mapping. You don't need displacement AND normal mapping. If that doesn't make sense to you, you'd probably find more info on pixolator's site. Or I could elaborate when I get a free minute.

I hope that was useful.

-lyle

[lmilton]

Originally posted by Ejecta
Is the C4D connection being upgraded to be more stable?

I don't believe there have been many changes to the C4D connections. However...

With the coming releases, we'll also be releasing the Host SDK/API. This will allow us to work directly with the C4D community/plugin developers to create a solid and much more functional C4D connection... or connecionS, considering the fact that anyone would be able to write one. The community will directly drive the evolution of that API... and by extention, the C4D connection.

This is the same approach that we'll be taking with the other host apps, as well (e.g. Maya, MAX, XSI, etc). This is much more preferable because we'd work directly with those who fully understand those particular Host apps, and production houses/studios can "roll their own" without being bound by outside development.

I hope that all makes sense...

[fwtep]

If anyone's interested, Taron posted some info about those zombie renders, along with a wireframe image on CG Channel. Here's the link:

http://www.cgchannel.com/gallery/viewimage.jsp?imgID=3558

That's the link to the wireframe. To read his lengthy post about the zombie images, click on the "Total Posts" link below-- the one that doesn't say "0" posts. :-)

Fred

[chikega]

I was just over there checking it out - Cgchannel should announce m:s 2.0 as well, that way both pmG and Taron will get plugged twice.

I had CgFocus do a plug on m:s 2.0 :)

Getting the word out!:beer:

[Sil3]

Originally posted by fwtep
If anyone's interested, Taron posted some info about those zombie renders, along with a wireframe image on CG Channel. Here's the link:

http://www.cgchannel.com/gallery/viewimage.jsp?imgID=3558

That's the link to the wireframe. To read his lengthy post about the zombie images, click on the "Total Posts" link below-- the one that doesn't say "0" posts. :-)

Fred

Thanks for the link Fred, when i saw so few polys i almost started :cry:

Taron still is one of my top inspirations, the man never ceases to amaze me, so i demand to see more :p

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