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nismoS132
04-27-2004, 01:20 PM
i just saw the banner ad :eek:

$1590 vs $1995.

i used to thought XSI was some 5 digit figure, i never expected it to be priced that close to LW. at a difference of $400, is it worth it even if it's just a foundation version?

ages
04-27-2004, 01:36 PM
XSI is a supa app but that price there are many catches involved in what u dont get and what u need to pay that they dont tell u like tech support $800us.

nismoS132
04-27-2004, 01:54 PM
wtf, you gotta pay for tech support?!

i thought only apple did that :(

version
04-27-2004, 01:55 PM
wel, for me, XSI was out of my range as a personal piece of software, but only got to use it through work. Wih this new release, SI have really prduced a package for anyone, at the reight persons. I'm an ex-LW user, whose beenusong the EXP version for a while to evaluate it, and it blew me away, in every way. There is no comparison, IMO, betwen LW and XSI, it's a whole other world, but one which makes animation a joy and pleasure now, something that I lost wih LW due to many reasons, XSI works with me, rather than against me.

The new base version, Foundation, is not some crippled one, it's got virtually everything you need, minus some tools such as the FX Tree, and rigid body dynamics; no big deal for me cause I mostly model, texture, render, and do light animation. It's a terrific price for what's on offer. Plus, the maintenance for Foundation is $500 a year.

Theres also the new pricing for the edu version, something like $300, and that gets you the full Advanced kit, plus, a permanent license, no contract, nothing, simply amazing.

So it seems SI are producing a packae to suit everyone, none of them ar crippled to the point of not being useable.

I'd give it a bash, try it out, I'm still taken aback by the new foundation one, it's just perfect for what I do, snd I've no need for the fxtree since I have Combustion for doing my comps in.


I guess Iost heart in Newtek with version 6, and my faith in themjust crumbled after that; their direction is none too appealing to me now.

Sorry if this sounds like I'mbeatig down on LW, but I've got to be honest here, and it;'s what mny experiences using both pakages have shown to me.

ages
04-27-2004, 01:59 PM
Softimages biggest problem for me is no mac version even though it came from unix world.

version
04-27-2004, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by nismoS132
wtf, you gotta pay for tech support?!

i thought only apple did that :(

SI's support is second to none. They have a website which is just pure clas, and is full of ansers and help. I used Soft 3D for a comany in the 90's and back then, they were outstanding in their tech support. lso, one of my major gripes with Newtek, is their lack of a decent roadmap, promises of releasse dates, then woefully mising them. I got stubg badly with the 3.5 to 4 LW release, I waited more than a year for something they told me was being released imminitely, it was a nightmare, and by the look of things, it hasn;t changed. SI don;t make those kind of promsises, they keep quiet, and when it's time to release, they make the announcement, and bam, it;s out in a few weeks.

Mwai Kasamale
04-27-2004, 02:02 PM
thats the best $800 bucks you'll ever spend. Until you know what it is to be a softimage user don't knock it. When softimage are willing to send someone to help write tools and fix production problems fot you, its really priceless. For an individual that may be expensive but you need take that into account when making such a choice.

As a comparison. There is no arguement. XSI is a better app, period.

version
04-27-2004, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by ages
Softimages biggest problem for me is no mac version even though it came from unix world.

Yeah,I' a mac user to, but XSI ws written mostly for Windows, it;s really hard-wired into it, it was onl;y possible to port to port to Irix and Linux due to the mainwin siftware which is sadly not available for OS X, so I doubt we'll see the Mac version. It's a pity, since I run most software on the Mac, but I'd rather see them tuning and spending resources on the OC versins if it means they don;t get bogged down in a complex Mac port which might not even sell enough to break even the dev costs.

version
04-27-2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Mwai Kasamale
thats the best $800 bucks you'll ever spend. Until you know what it is to be a softimage user don't knock it. When softimage are willing to send someone to help write tools and fix production problems fot you, its really priceless. For an individual that may be expensive but you need take that into account when making such a choice.

As a comparison. There is no arguement. XSI is a better app, period.
They are fantastic. In the 90''s, the company I worked for were considering the move to Soft 3D, we had 2 SI peole ome visit us, really took their time to understand our needs, gave us a full license to use, and I had to phone tech support in Montreal, and the guys there coudn't be more helpful.

There's something quite uniue about SI's support, they understand the market, and users really well.

I'mjust looking forward to getting my license soon.

ages
04-27-2004, 02:11 PM
Not true Softimage was primarily a irix app, it wasnt written for dos like 3ds was, now thats hardwired for windows..
XSI is alot like maya whereas it can be ported, its just politics that stand in its way..

being bought out by MS and nution done with it for 4 years then sold to Avid who released xsi.
Avid was a mac only company and still does mac stuff..I dont know avids track record though.

Arguably XSi is tops, LW does stand on its own with solid modeling tools and a great renderer and particles. Back in the day it was LW and xsi, LW to model xsi to place and animate.

version
04-27-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by ages
Not true Softimage was primarily a irix app, it wasnt written for dos like 3ds was, now thats hardwired for windows..
XSI is alot like maya whereas it can be ported, its just politics that stand in its way..


No, Soft 3D was an Irix app, XSI was a re-write based on MS technology. It';s why the Irix version sucked, because it was a port, but the Linux version is a decent port the conversion done through Mainwin.

This is one of the major reasons it can't be done easily on OS X, xsi isn't a Unix app per se.

Nemoid
04-27-2004, 02:35 PM
XSI seems to be Lw 20! I have to say i'm going to try v4.0 out, and maybe going side by side with both Lw and XSI for now.
Nt should take some great inspiration from this app and from the software house behaviour. Really clever.
But I think they willl do this.

swampthing
04-27-2004, 03:20 PM
xsi is amazing, I don't mean this to be a lightwave bash, but when using XSI and going back to lightwave it feels like your going back in time 10 years. XSI seems pretty friendly to lightwave users as well as alot of things behave the same way.

I don't think you could really start on XSI like you could on lightwave as i think you'd get overwhelmed, especially since there's tons more lightwave tutorialware, but once you're comfortable in 3d you'd be nuts not to switch.

policarpo
04-27-2004, 03:30 PM
XSI is a great app and with their current pricing configuration they are sure to get a whole lot of new users.

The only thing which has kept me from moving over completely to XSI is the lack of an OSX port. I recently invested in a PowerBook, a Dual XEON and soon a G5, so I need an application that is Dual Platform saavy.

That's why I am slowly transitioning to Cinema 4D, which introduces a lot of workflow enhancements that are perfect for motion graphics work as well as print (some recent projects came up that were easy to accomplish in C4D and would have been a royal pain in LW).

LW is still a great modeler, but with tools like Silo3D arriving (dual platform soon) it's getting harder and harder to live with work arounds and limitations. I just want to work in a fully parametric environment where everything is animatable and weird ass workarounds aren't constantly needed (ever have a client comment on the bevel of your font in an animation...ever try updating that in LW...what a pain...in C4D, all it took was an adjustment of my Fillet setting).

Don't get me wrong, LW is a great tool, but with more competition and advancements coming out of the wood work, it's harder and harder to know just where things are going with our beloved application.

XSIgh is a dynamite tool and the new deal is just stellar. Competition keeps companies competing and in the end, we benefit from this. So keep pushing the envelope you great creators!
:bowdown:

greydef
04-27-2004, 04:04 PM
A lot of blanket statements here - no one seems to be giving a features comparision for the versions of the software at the stated prices? Soft/hard dynamics, hair/fur , renderer...

There's a lot to be said for workflow, but what do you get for your extra $400/900 in terms of definable capabilities (lets try to get too metaphysical on this - I know you can do anything with any package given enough...).

BTW What are the criteria for the education version - do you need to be attending/representing an education facility or just not using the software commercially?:shrug:

policarpo
04-27-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by greydef
you need to be attending/representing an education facility...

that's it.

:-)

student or teacher.

Miyazaki
04-27-2004, 04:14 PM
Well, nobody can tell you whether or not the foundation is a good deal because a DETAILED feature list is not out yet. So you don`t know excactly what you get.
No hard and softbodies, hair, and fxtree, ok. But what about the other tools?
As much as I like XSI, I still wait till the detailed list is out before freaking out ;)
Lucky students :cool:

version
04-27-2004, 04:43 PM
One thing that has got me sold on XSI, is that with each version that comes out; you really feel that that the app has moved on, the updates are quite somethnig, and gives you a sense of a company that is heavily behind pushing xsi forward.

RPG2006
04-27-2004, 05:01 PM
These choices are starting to leave my head in a spin.

We know that XSI is the superior application. However from what I've been lead to believe it's more geared at a studio environment with a team working together rather than for the one man band, as in my case.

Is this the case? Who is it geared at and what sort of projects or usuage would justify the move?

For instance Policarpo you mention print work, would XSI be advantageous over LW in this field, from concept to final render do you think? The impression I've had in the past is that it's very methodical(maybe the wrong word) and a tad intimidating, in it's approach. I'm sure this represents extra power, but I do like the rough and ready feel, about lightwave.

C4D is also looking very tempting, but does it really have any advantages, and again for what? How does the modeling(+meshsurgery)/rendering(causitcs,raytracing etc) compare for example? I know that bodypaint 2.0 is an excellent element of the suite, but this also runs with LW.

The only other app I have spent any serious time in is 3d MAX. There was alot of things I liked about that MAX. It was powerful in what it offered modeling wise, with proper edge support, history, instancing, ngons, snapping etc, but lacking in the hands on feel of LW ie navigating around and working on a selected poly in the viewport could be a nightmare, and simple things like rotating a selection in perspective view was a drawn out process. These simple things were enough for me to come running back to lightwave when the jobs and deadlines came in.

In addition one of the main drawbacks of lightwave outside of the animation side, which I'm not really qualified to comment on, is the nurb/uv distortion issue. Do XSI or C4D handle this any better.

As I said these choices are starting to do my head in.

I think what I want to know is what justifies the move. I'm a one man band, I work on print work, hopefully to a near photoreal level, when the brief requires. I do a lot of modeling, texturing, and as of late have had to produce simple character animations. The latter I have to say was a bit of a struggle in LW, but I finally got there.

Short of the obvious and getting someone else to do it, could my life be made any easier with C4D or XSI?

Sorry for the longwindedness, just want to know more.

Cheers

RPG:)

policarpo
04-27-2004, 05:13 PM
All I can say is get the demos and give them a whirl.

We each work and think differently.

In the end we are each the right judge for what fits our needs.

:beer:

T4D
04-27-2004, 05:22 PM
MORE details on the Basic Version are needed before we pass comments really, other wise we moswell be talking about MODO

I played with XSI abit over the years but never really took it serously Because of the price ( I'm freelancer ) and they've got my attention with the price drop BUT budgets do come into it and I would be looking at a cut down version of the Full product where with LW 8 i got everything Newtek has got to offer . and Personally Maya has got the market at the moment so if i was looking for Future job options Maya would have to come in to it too.

the feature list is needed
XSI is a smoother ride then LW
but if all the good stuff is cut out
you might feel as if you only got 2 wheels instead of the all four you have with LW. :shrug:

Very interested but waiting ........................ XSI:love: $$$:cry:


Originally posted by RPG 2003
These choices are starting to leave my head in a spin.

In addition one of the main drawbacks of lightwave outside of the animation side, which I'm not really qualified to comment on, is the nurb/uv distortion issue. Do XSI or C4D handle this any better.

RPG:)

One thing i've always noticed over the years is when 3D errors are shown in things like UV distortion or new Features in 3D XSI is always shown to have worked it out first and have any problem licked Quick

i think at the moment XSI is the only app to have UV distortion fixed on Sub-d models

again it looks like a cool move for them to drop the price

RPG2006
04-27-2004, 05:35 PM
Wow, that's enlightening.

Alot to ponder on there.

:beer: :beer:

I am being a tad cynical, but I do get your point Policarpo.

I'm not adversed to getting my hands dirty, so to speak, as I have mentioned with regards Max, and not mentioned with regards Rhino.

It takes quite a bit of time, I've found to really appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of an app. A day of plonking around isn't going to tell you much at all.

Nevermind.

RPG
:)

Hunter
04-27-2004, 05:46 PM
So i downloaded the EXP and nothing but lock-ups and crashes. Not instilling me with confidence but it may be somthing I'm doing wrong.

version
04-27-2004, 05:54 PM
From what I hear, the features missing in the foundation version are mostly those high-end animation tools that others have mentioned, which suits me fine.

XSI is geaerd for studios and the single artist too, it's just that it has the capabilities to be used throught a team of people.

ages
04-27-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
XSI is a great app and with their current pricing configuration they are sure to get a whole lot of new users.

The only thing which has kept me from moving over completely to XSI is the lack of an OSX port. I recently invested in a PowerBook, a Dual XEON and soon a G5, so I need an application that is Dual Platform saavy.

That's why I am slowly transitioning to Cinema 4D, which introduces a lot of workflow enhancements that are perfect for motion graphics work as well as print (some recent projects came up that were easy to accomplish in C4D and would have been a royal pain in LW).

LW is still a great modeler, but with tools like Silo3D arriving (dual platform soon) it's getting harder and harder to live with work arounds and limitations. I just want to work in a fully parametric environment where everything is animatable and weird ass workarounds aren't constantly needed (ever have a client comment on the bevel of your font in an animation...ever try updating that in LW...what a pain...in C4D, all it took was an adjustment of my Fillet setting).

Don't get me wrong, LW is a great tool, but with more competition and advancements coming out of the wood work, it's harder and harder to know just where things are going with our beloved application.

XSIgh is a dynamite tool and the new deal is just stellar. Competition keeps companies competing and in the end, we benefit from this. So keep pushing the envelope you great creators!
:bowdown:

Poli its suprising that u r leaving LW..Did u end up getting LW8?
Wont u miss fpriming?

nismoS132
04-27-2004, 06:24 PM
i've always wondered what people meant when they said non-linear animation tools.

the XSI offer is very tempting to me, the main reason i chose LW over max was simply because of pricing. i'm not skilled enough in either application to make a choice between tools, so i went for the most practical solution for me, price. now if XSI is just $400 more, i'm very willing to put that money down, especially when it seems to be generally agreed to be no.1.

even if the foundation version is lacking the advance tools, i'm going to be stuck in the military for the next 3 years, so i'm fine with the basic tools, even if it's weekends only, 3 years is alot of time to practise with. 3 years later we'd probably see either XSI 5 or maybe even a totally new application.

policarpo
04-27-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by ages
Poli its suprising that u r leaving LW..Did u end up getting LW8?
Wont u miss fpriming?

Well...sometimes results speak louder than words.
:drool:
C4D is a great tool for my workflow, and I just find myself using it more and more these days. that's all.

check out this thread.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140588

ThE_JacO
04-27-2004, 06:59 PM
Just one word about XSI and the so fabled windows dependancy...

XSI is NOT window dependant, and MainWin for Linux is not some windows emulator (not to mention it's not the only reason because of which XSI isn't on OSX yet).

MainWin is a cross-OS development helper and widget.

all crossplatform applications (Maya, C4D and HDN for sure, Max not, dunno about LW) sit on top of a widget, you can think of it as some sort of OS for 3D apps into the real OS, on top of this you put the application.

such a layout basically allows to port most of the coding efforts for the application between operating systems with a minimal amount of grunt work.

Softimage 2 years ago sat their first linux version on a commercial widget called Mainwin to simplify XSI's portability and avoid wasting development during those early stages of XSI, this is not very different from what all big SFX houses do, sitting their propietary tools on top of a commercial application.

with time tho mainwin is always less present and a Softimage propietary platform is more, this is what allowed to have the netview in Linux and many other things, closing the gap completely between windows and linux versions of XSI.

MainWin is not offering anything for MacOS-X, but this is not what is preventing Montreal's developers from porting.
a small market, an uninterested and very marketing sensitive userbase that bought into maya's hype (not saying maya is bad, just that they had very aggressive marketing for their first 4 years) and a still young platform that to be drenched of power requires a lot of effort, an eventual new platform to support (for all the people and offices, and Softimage's support is as impressive as expensive to expand on a new platform) and some still foggy standards.

These are the reasons why XSI is not on Mac OS-X, win dependancy ? sorry that's Max ;)

greydef
04-27-2004, 07:05 PM
Thanx for the earlier feedback about the edu version Poli.


Originally posted by policarpo
Well...sometimes results speak louder than words.
..l.

...check out this thread.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140588

After a quick look at the two renders, the LightWave/FPrime one looks like it's doing a better job with radiosity & GI - or maybe the scenes are set-up differently.... :shrug:

I think I will definitely have to give Softimage a go (3.5EXP) and maybe C4D based on your findings and maybe for old times sake (I remember using the 1st version of C4D - was quick back then...)

Still, some definite details about Foundation version would be good :cry:

version
04-27-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by ThE_JacO
Just one word about XSI and the so fabled windows dependancy...

I don't think anyone said that xsi was |Windows dependant, but XSI was coded with more of Windows in mind, than any other platform. It doesn't preclude xsi to ever being ported elsewhere, but it does make it that bit more of a headache. Like you said, in time the SI will be less reliant on things such as mainwin for cross platform releases, but it is dependant to a degree for making ports that bit eaier.

I'm sure cost, small market, etc are major reasons for xsi not appearing on OS X, but portingit in a decent way to OS X is also that bit more problematic due to OS X's APIs.

ThE_JacO
04-27-2004, 07:22 PM
foundation lacks hair, FXTRee, Syflex and I think Rigid bodies, and has "only" 2MRay licenses coming with it (essential and adv. add satellites to the old offerings, fundation sticks to the basic 2 CPUs). that's it.

XSI versioning NEVER split the toolset over different offerings, only modules.

greydef
04-27-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by ThE_JacO
foundation lacks hair, FXTRee, Syflex and I think Rigid bodies, and has "only" 2MRay licenses coming with it (essential and adv. add satellites to the old offerings, fundation sticks to the basic 2 CPUs). that's it.

XSI versioning NEVER split the toolset over different offerings, only modules.

Ahh that sheds some light! Interesting, it does have MRay...

zaam
04-27-2004, 07:30 PM
Just a couple of observations here -

I took advantage of XSI's promo last month to get the advanced version for a trade in on another package (not LW) + $4000. A fantastic deal IMO. I've been on a brutal schedule since my package arrived, so my time with it has been limited, but I do have some general observations. Overall, XSI is in a completely different class of app than Lightwave. Again, that's opinion. XSI's architecture is relatively new, and has tons of headroom for features to be implemented at the core level. Lightwave, on the other hand, shows its age in too many ways. I can't see Newtek doing a complete re-write on the next version, either. More like updating the architecture as we go.

The Foundation package of XSI doesn't look like a feture-chopped version to me at all at this early stage. It appears to have a few things (cloth, for example) that were only available in the advanced package of the previous version. Remember that this version is positioned against Maya Complete, so it has to stack up reasonably well. I would guess that dynamics would be added to future versions for that reason alone. Still, if you need dynamics now, or hypervoxels, or a few other goodies that Newtek has thrown in, Lightwave doesn't look so bad. Also, you can get Lightwave at a discount ($1299, I think?), so there actually IS a price difference. Don't expect to find XSI discounted.

It all comes down to what you need the software to do, and how much you value features vs. workflow. I intend to keep working in Lightwave alongside XSI (at least for now), but I believe many things need to be addressed to place the app on par with Maya or XSI.

As far as the $800 per year for XSI maintenance, it's not just for tech support. It also covers your upgrades. That's less than $70 a mnth to keep your software always current and have some of the best support in the business.

There's a lot more to say about this, but it comes down to how much you want to spend and what you need to do. the base XSI is a bargain at $2000. Lightwave, at least for now, is worth every penny of the <$1500 you spend. You should download the Experience version of XSI before you decide, though.

version
04-27-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by greydef
Ahh that sheds some light! Interesting, it does have MRay...

Yup, plus foundation comes with particles and the cloth simulator (I think) that is in 3.5 just now.

fez
04-27-2004, 08:49 PM
Got a few XSI questions for any former Lightwavers willing to answer:

Can I easily and nondestructively alter and reuse rigs like in Lightwave 8 (I have been using the Ortho Tools nonstop since they were released)? For instance, if I have a bipedal character with all the reverse-foot and finger controls set up can I simply refit the rig into a character with different proportions? Or if when testing the deformations I find a shoulder bone is slightly out of place, can I nondestructively tweak the position?

If I have a perfectly weighted hand (using Lightwave' weight maps)can I change the proportions and weld the points to the arm of another character without having to re-weight the points?

I have been eyeing XSI for a while but swore I would wait for 8 to arrive before making a move. So far the 8 reviews seem strikingly subdued. Where is the excitement?

yog
04-27-2004, 09:07 PM
If you want to try XSI (and I strongly suggest you dou), I would suggest trying the Halflife EXP version as it is based on XSI 3.5. The straight experience version is still based on XSI 3.0.

I've been learning XSI for a couple months now (since HL-EXP came out), and I've got to say I'm very, very impressed. I've not even got into the high end character rigging/animation or dynamics yet, but the modelling, texturing and rendering tools are excellent.
I'd say the main difference is that all the tools in XSI are seemlessly intergrated into the program and work very well together. The tools in Lightwave on the other hand mostly feel bolted on (for a reason), and on the animation side at least all work well together with multiple types of controllers working together and at different levels.

I'll definately be getting XSI-4 Foundementle when it comes out.

yog
04-27-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by fez
Can I easily and nondestructively alter and reuse rigs like in Lightwave 8 (I have been using the Ortho Tools nonstop since they were released)? For instance, if I have a bipedal character with all the reverse-foot and finger controls set up can I simply refit the rig into a character with different proportions? Or if when testing the deformations I find a shoulder bone is slightly out of place, can I nondestructively tweak the position?

If I have a perfectly weighted hand (using Lightwave' weight maps)can I change the proportions and weld the points to the arm of another character without having to re-weight the points?


You can definately build, save and load rigs totally indipendant of any character, preserving IK, expressions, constraints and/or proxies.

I'm not sure about the cutting sections of characters with weighting and apply it to other characters because I'm not really a character animator, but I'm sure someone else can answer that.

Dr Dardis
04-28-2004, 02:56 AM
No Denying, XSI is nice, in fact it is super nice. all of the features feel really well thought out, and they work FOR you. I have not recieved my LW8 yet, so i cant say, but it seems for "Major Character animation update", that they have not really consulted character animators. I may also be wrong of course, don't get angry. Just the premature buzz i get is from the people who know is "wait for point releases".

The one thing that stops my "studio" (there are 2 of us :) ) from using an XSI pipe is that we have a 10 machine render farm, and LW's unlimited render capabilities are very cost efficient. Add that to the fact that we have not had a lot of character stuff to this point, I have not seen the need to change (from a cost point of view).

that said, we have quite a bit on the horizon as far as character stuff goes now, and XSI is becoming a likelyhood. I enjoy a lot about LW (implementation of VMAPS especially!), but for commercial quality character stuff, it is just not the right choice(for me). I had been looking at the Motionbuilder/LW pipe, but it is just not smooth enough for my liking.

so, to summarize, LW is good because the renders are nice and you can use as many machines as you want. XSI is just plain nice, but can get expensive running on network. Foundation looks very cost efficient (Mray licenses aside).

my 2c

Chris.

zaam
04-28-2004, 03:46 AM
Dr Dardis,

The advanced XSI (Yea, I kow it's $$$) has 4 cpu / 8 node satellite rendering (I think Essentials has 2 / 4), so you could still put that renderfarm to work, at least somewhat. Add to that the fact that any AA slows LW's renderer significantly as compared to Mental ray, and you might not be looking at much of a render hit at all.

GeorgeDittmar
04-28-2004, 03:48 AM
its nice that xsi is now reachable to more people. me i bought lightwave a few months back as my first real 3d app and i love lw and i have played around in xsi a bit and i couldnt get the hang of it but at the time i was really trying to get used to lw. i think in a few years i will buy xsi and use lw and xsi together maybe

rock
04-28-2004, 06:59 AM
I jumped away from Lightwave over a year ago. Even LW modeler gives me chill - it's simply outdated in most categories. Too many plugins and fancy names - spin quad, spin tri, edge this and edge that, but it has no edges.

It seems XSI is taking root. Each release of XSI is timely and purposeful. Each LW release is just more padding. The problem is the core itself. And therefore, it can be explained why LW8 takes so long.

GeorgeDittmar
04-28-2004, 07:07 AM
well we could all try to force newtek into redoing the core of the program. lol

Tudor
04-28-2004, 08:26 AM
Ok.. I know that XSI is a great program, but enough of the LW bashing now please.

Yes, LW need an overhaul. Trying to build on the current structure does not seem to work. Still, LW is a very good program. There is a lot of things in LW that makes me prefer it to other programs. The weight maps, the endomorphs, modeler in general, separate modeler/layout (yes, I actually do like that), Great skinning with the dynamic bones etc, etc. I even find animating in LW easy. The addition of a dope track in LW8 is a great new feature. Also the rig format, ortho tools, IKboost. How's that for a major character animation update?!

It seems to me that every program basically stays the same, but with updates, until a major rewrite comes along. Look at soft -> XSI, 3ds -> 3dsMax, LW 5.5 -> L6.0.
Now, 3ds and XSI took a bigger step than LW5.5->LW6, but it seems like LW is next in line for an overhaul. But do you all remember how long it took to develop XSI? Softimage really suffered during that period. This seems to be where newtek is now. Or atleast I hope that they are working on a new version.
Until that version arrives, I will stick with LW. The simple reason being that experience in an app easily beats a few fancy features in another.

Ziah
04-28-2004, 09:01 AM
hmmm

something i remember seeing and pick up along the way nice article...read up


What app (http://www.zaon.com/company/articles/3d_rendering.php) :)

some of the things it may be a few months old but the prinicple is whuts important i think ..happy read

Stone
04-28-2004, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by rock
Even LW modeler gives me chill - it's simply outdated in most categories.

while its partly an objective opnion. lightwave is still the best poly modeler of the lot. its simple and effective. a sculp tool for the artist, while in particular maya suffers from parameters and menu surfing when modeling.

xsi is the only application comming close to lightwaves modeler, and thats only because softimage is so greatly inspired by some lightwaves workflow.

Originally posted by rock
Too many plugins and fancy names

all the applications use a lot of plugins, lightwave is no exception, but isnt at all worse than the others.

Originally posted by rock
spin quad, spin tri, edge this and edge that, but it has no edges.

edges is an abstraction, since such a thing doesnt exist. selceting a series of connected points is an edge, and naming tools edge tools if they manipulate the abstraction known is an edge, is correct use of the term.

Originally posted by rock
Each LW release is just more padding. The problem is the core itself. And therefore, it can be explained why LW8 takes so long.

all applications are developed by improving and adding to the existing feautureset and code base. claiming its padding in lightwave is just nonsense.

also you have no way of making any correct assumptions about the lightwave core without having the code.

thank you for another useless fanboy post.

----

while the new xsi prices are better, they are still way off that of lightwave. you get a cut down version, forced maintaince fee if you want updates, very limited rendernodes.

/stone

Stone
04-28-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Mwai Kasamale
As a comparison. There is no arguement. XSI is a better app, period.

its a better application in some areas. period.

Originally posted by Nemoid
XSI seems to be Lw 20!

more like; XSI seems to be lightwave with a different approach to things, a different workflow, most code replaced or changed, and other possibilities and strengths.

/stone

colkai
04-28-2004, 10:58 AM
Dunno, this doesn't seem to be a comparison thread but how super XSI is and how rubbish LW is.

In which case, shouldn't it be on the XSI forums, not the Lightwave 3D one?

One thing Lw has that XSI doesn't? The abilit to appeal to hobbyists who currently don't run a studio and have very limited budgets.

Take little ole me for example, that extra $400 for XSI over LW, well, that's a pretty big wad of cash. Then you have the maintenace fees so your 'up to date'.

Ok, so with LW8, Newtek have already stated, you get versions upto 8.x free, so lets day 8.9x ?
Now for someone who can just about warrant the upgrade price these are powerful arguments.
Sure, in a 'money no object' world, I'd buy XSI, heck and any other software I fancied trying. I'd also be driving a classic Corvette Stingray. However, I'm driving an 8 year old car with 105K on the clock. ;)

For studios, fine, fork out whatever cash you can throw at the project, add it onto costs and recoup, seems logical.
For many though, life really isn't so easy.

Sil3
04-28-2004, 11:43 AM
Actually LW and XSI get along pretty well, i still prefer to model in LW and do my UV maps in there.

Organic Modeling and Rendering are a lot easier to do in LW IMO, but Rigging, Animation and GI/FG are so fast in MRay, that alone are worth the extra 400 bucks IMO.

When XSI costed 8K or even 4K yes LW was a lot better bang for the buck, but with XSI Foundation at 2K, i dont see why someone who can invest on it wont do it, like i said XSI is a terrific addon to LW, although im learning/using XSI more than LW, iīll never replace LW completly, at least i dont see myself doing it on a near future.

Nemoid
04-28-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Stone

more like; XSI seems to be lightwave with a different approach to things, a different workflow, most code replaced or changed, and other possibilities and strengths.
/stone
while every app has its strenghts and its weaknesses, i am really pleased that XSI seems to have a valid structure compared to Lwcurrent structure, both in its base and in its organization.

This being said, LW has so great potential, that the program wich could be built taking the app as an inspiration would be better than XSI itself. But this will not happen until Nt thinks a bit different about developing of the app in the future. I think that, if they will do this job then it will be something great and revolutionary.

I am the first to enjoy modelling in Lw. when i model something there, i feel at home so i don't think i will leave Lw for sure. what i will do maybe will be couple it with XSI or other. I think there's no prob using more than one software to get the job done.

ThE_JacO
04-28-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Stone
its a better application in some areas. period.

more like; XSI seems to be lightwave with a different approach to things, a different workflow, most code replaced or changed, and other possibilities and strengths.

/stone

one thing always makes me curious when I see SW comparisons.

have you worked on a movie on each SW (or on a tandem SW pipeline) or at least some commercials or something ?

99% of the times I see somebody "defending" they never used the alternative they shield themself from or just briefly played with it, the remaining 1% is 80% people who didn't take part in a production with either SW.

Just curious for the sake of statistics, don't mistake mine for a personal attack please, that's not my intention.

nismoS132
04-28-2004, 01:57 PM
this is probably unheard of, but what about using XSI for animating, and LW for rendering :p

Tudor
04-28-2004, 02:14 PM
Or you could do it my backwards way and use Lighwave for everything (Maya at work though I am afraid. Trying to convice them to make the switch though :). Some things needs improving, but things do work and I am happy with Lightwave and plan on continuing to use it. Jumping back and forth between programs causes more problems then it is worth in my opinion..

Btw.. check the XSI part of this forum.. There is both praise and complaints there aswell..

version
04-28-2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by ThE_JacO
one thing always makes me curious when I see SW comparisons.

have you worked on a movie on each SW (or on a tandem SW pipeline) or at least some commercials or something ?

99% of the times I see somebody "defending" they never used the alternative they shield themself from or just briefly played with it, the remaining 1% is 80% people who didn't take part in a production with either SW.

Just curious for the sake of statistics, don't mistake mine for a personal attack please, that's not my intention.

good point, and one of the reasons sw comparison to this degree is pointles without experience in the apps that are being comapred.

Personally, I've not used XSI in a production, yet. But I've used both LW, and Soft 3D in film, tv, commercials, etc. as well as software ranging from Wavefront, to Power animator, etc, etc. down the years.

But, in using XSI so far at home, I can a good feeling as to what it's able to do, how it would function in a production, etc.

zaam
04-28-2004, 04:51 PM
I don't think this thread is about LW bashing at all, and yes, there are plenty of shortcomings in XSI that become apparent simply from reading the XSI forums. Ditto for Maya, Max, etc . . .

It's really not a LW vs XSI issue here for me. There's little point in that. As someone with a lot invested in LW, both time and money, I do feel a concern for the future of the app, and I would like to see it remain a viable professional choice, The fact that XSI has lowered their price, though, means that the high end has begun to enter LW's market niche. This invites comparison for almost anyone with an investment in the software.

What I see is this — LW has long been a choice for many who wanted a very capable package at a very reasonable price. That's why most of us began using it in the first place. However, LW seems to be now stuck in the middle between more capable apps that are quickly getting cheaper, and cheaper apps that are quickly becoming more capable. The market niche where Newtek made its money is narrowing.

The future of the product would seem to depend on NT's ability to develop the app faster than the market is changing and to convince new users that it continues to offer price/performance advantages that the others lack. That's a tricky task with an aging architecture in place. NT does not seem to have the time to undergo a complete rewrite as Softimage and Alias did a while back. The XSI rewrite was about building headroom for the future, and many of Softimage's features were missing from early versions. I doubt that scenario would play well in the market if Newtek tried the same thing.

Let's hope v8 is well received, and that NT is able to capitalize on the value that developers like Worley bring to the table, on the strength of this community, on resources like FLAY, and on the functionality that make it the choice tool of animators like Timothy Albee. These are advantages that have to come into play if LW is to survive a market slugfest with a product like XSI.

yog
04-28-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by nismoS132
this is probably unheard of, but what about using XSI for animating, and LW for rendering :p

It's unheard of for a good reason. If you are using GI then LW is probably the slowest version of all the main packages.
Tightly linked to rendering is texturing/shader creation. I would have to say that this is a lot easier initially in LW, but mainly because XSI gives you so many more options, including a node based material tree.

mocaw
04-29-2004, 08:26 AM
Foundation? Steve Worley asked me for $279 dollars to build a foundation in LW. I gave him the money gladly and now have a reason to stay with LW. True, it doesn't do everything (add a big YET), but man it's amazing. Only the people who don't own it or haven't really invested the time in working with it can't see what this has done for LW.
Previewing your every final render move is a god send for texturing and lighting. No other app does this yet (another big YET though).

The more you throw at the thing the better it does in comparision to other renderers. This is why I haven't jumped ship yet. LW's native renderer is just too slow for anyone using a single machine and Mray too expensive.

So my opinion? With the money you save on an XSI phone support fee you could use it to buy FPrime and a few other Worley Plugs. That should buy you some time till the XSI deal sweetens up a bit more...

Then again why are people even comparing the two apps? There are a lot of apps in LW's price range that do a whole lot- C4D, Maya, Messia, and Max. XSI only gets terribly better than the others at the upper range.

Mwai Kasamale
04-29-2004, 10:10 AM
I think Zaan summed it up nicely.

What makes alternatives like XSI and Maya more viable now more than ever is indeed the price reduction. Comparisions of the applications sheds a glaring light on the pitfalls of our"wavers' preferred application. In the new sub-$2500 app ensemble LW suffers the most while preety much every other app is either getting better or has top notch built in already. Not that LW is not Top Notch, it just seems technologically LW looks BAD. Cinema4D has made leaps and bounds in its short lifetime. If it took a rewrite for Soft3D to become what XSI is today, logic would dictate that the same steps be taken by LW.

like Zaan said. LW's development schedule is unsustainably long concidering its competition. Now that XSI has entered its price range. their development schedule MUST quicken if the are to survive. No doubt they will be around a while but you never know.

For those doing the "..no XSI's approach is different from LW's nit better' Yes thats true of everything, but use XSI on a complex 2 week schedule for a spot with an anal artdirector/producer who wants Episode1 in :30 then use LW and the difference becomes blaringly obvious.

If I had the money I'd pay Worley,Lux,PMG ,Joe Alter to re-write LW. That would kick holy-A

tachy0n
04-29-2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by mocaw
Previewing your every final render move is a god send for texturing and lighting. No other app does this yet (another big YET though).
[/B]

Maya has had it's IPR system for ages, and XSI it's render region. Even Cinema has something similar now. Of course they aren't as fast as fPrime, but unlike it, they preview everything

Nemoid
04-29-2004, 10:42 AM
That's because IPR and render region are built in preview systems (like VIPER) in programs with a good working core and features. Fprime is an external plug wich behaves as a prewiev system AND like a rendering engine, wich has limitraions due to Lw SDK.
This also means that with an updated SDK Fprime will release its full power, though, taking Lw a step further. A great thing would be to integrate Fprime in Lw. I think Worley will be payed alot from growing sellings of Lw seats with such a system.

Worley will enhance FPrime as well during time for sure too, enabling it to become faster and precise in GI calculations.After all F Prime is only at 1.02 version.

colkai
04-29-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
Worley will enhance FPrime as well during time for sure too, enabling it to become faster and precise in GI calculations.After all F Prime is only at 1.02 version.

And I think it's fair to say - that thought excites a great many people! :D

yog
04-29-2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by mocaw
Foundation? Steve Worley asked me for $279 dollars to build a foundation in LW. I gave him the money gladly and now have a reason to stay with LW. True, it doesn't do everything (add a big YET), but man it's amazing. Only the people who don't own it or haven't really invested the time in working with it can't see what this has done for LW.
Previewing your every final render move is a god send for texturing and lighting. No other app does this yet (another big YET though).

So my opinion? With the money you save on an XSI phone support fee you could use it to buy FPrime and a few other Worley Plugs. That should buy you some time till the XSI deal sweetens up a bit more...

Then again why are people even comparing the two apps? There are a lot of apps in LW's price range that do a whole lot- C4D, Maya, Messia, and Max. XSI only gets terribly better than the others at the upper range.

Ah, but thatís the point. The Foundation version for just a couple hundred more, outstrips LW in the basics of modelling, texturing, rendering and character animation (Iíve not tested the cloth or particles that ship with XSI as I have no need of them), and only miss out on the hair and hardbody dynamics, which I have no need of anyway.
The maintenance cost is optional, but does include all upgrades for the period, including new full version upgrades. If you donít go for maintenance it just means you have to buy the full version upgrades separately, just like you would for LW.

Like you, for many years I have thought that I have had too much time and money invested in LW to make the change. Unfortunately for me that time has come and gone.

This is going to be a very interesting time for Newtek, they are coming under sever pressure feature and quality wise from former underdogs like Cinema, and are being challenged on price from the former unattainables like Maya and XSI., especially as Newtek are raising their price whilst the rest drop their prices significantly.
Personally I think the best thing Newtek can do is hold up on all the gimmick features and really concentrate on the integration and speed of all their current tools for the next few releases. It will be hard for them in the short term (marketing nightmare), but it will better set them up for the future.

BTW - Limited region preview using Mental Ray in XSI is very comparable with F-Prime.

BTW2 - The reason people are compairing the price of such "high end" apps with LW is because the prices are comparable. For those that say "we" are comparing cut down/crippled versions of other apps with a full version of LW, I'd say think again. Apart from some limited use functions (i.e being able to turn all yor bones into IK spagetti), all the main functions are there with no limitation.

Stone
04-29-2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by ThE_JacO
one thing always makes me curious when I see SW comparisons.

have you worked on a movie on each SW (or on a tandem SW pipeline) or at least some commercials or something ?

99% of the times I see somebody "defending" they never used the alternative they shield themself from or just briefly played with it

animation isnt what defines the package. im a modeler in a game company, so modeling, texturing and a bit of simple rigging are my areas. and lightwave simply has a very artistic minded hands-on approach to modeling, while xsi comes in second in that area.

Originally posted by Mwai Kasamale
Cinema4D has made leaps and bounds in its short lifetime.

11 years can hardly be considered a short lifetime.

Originally posted by Mwai Kasamale
use XSI on a complex 2 week schedule for a spot with an anal artdirector/producer who wants Episode1

you are uassuming a specific segment and specific tasks. the packages are different and excell in different areas.

Originally posted by Mwai Kasamale
In the new sub-$2500 app ensemble LW suffers the most

competition is getting harder and its obvious that newtek have to dliver to keep up, but your gloom scenario is hardly likely. there is still a large margin when counting in all the costs and they still target somewhat different segments.

/stone

version
04-29-2004, 12:13 PM
There's no denying that people will choose a package that they feel suits them, works best to thier needs, and so on. But unless you're self-employed or a hobbyist, you're going to have to be open to using tools which you haven't used before. It's happened to me many a time. Form the early 90's I used LW mostly, then going from studio to studio, I had to pick up on programs from Wavefront, Alias, and then later I had to use Soft 3D and MAX.

With Max as a case in point, I never enjoyed the process of modeling, texturing, and animation in it, it's a damn powerful tool, but like people in other industries that gravitate to tools that they feel comfortable with, I couldn't ever feel as relaxed in it as i did in LW, or SI 3D. It's the same witrh me for XSI, it feels like the culmination of years of waiting for a bunch of tools, that are an extension of what's going on in my mind. This doesn't knock any other software, but it just means that everyone is different :)

Also, I think software experiences are a valid thing to discuss, just like people in who draw, paint, carve, or write music will dsicuss what they feel is a good alternative to what's around.

yog
04-29-2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by version
There's no denying that people will choose a package that they feel suits them, works best to thier needs, and so on. But unless you're self-employed or a hobbyist, you're going to have to be open to using tools which you haven't used before. It's happened to me many a time. Form the early 90's I used LW mostly, then going from studio to studio, I had to pick up on programs from Wavefront, Alias, and then later I had to use Soft 3D and MAX.
.

I think this is a very valid point.
For five years I used LW exclusively. I did "dabble" with the free trial versions for other software, but they all seemed rather difficult to learn. Then two years ago I HAD to start using MAX because of where I was working, I had a major struggle at first, but then gradually it bacame easier. Now I'm revisiting those other software packages that previously seemed too difficult and am finding them a lot easier to adapt to.

Now I've used MAX for two years I can say it is not my favourite software to use (but I can if needs be), in fact rendering (never thought I would say that a couple years ago) and some of the non-linear modelling methods are the only reason I use it for personal projects.
But the experience has been worth it in order to view other software less objectively.

gameboy
04-29-2004, 02:13 PM
I've enjoyed reading the comments on LW 8 and XSI 4. I am awaiting the arrival of my LW 8 upgrade, but I'm disappointed by what I hear about it, especially in the realm of animation and rigging tools. I am impressed by what I've seen and others have said about XSI 4, but I don't care much for their sales strategy of having to buy through resellers for anything above the "base" package. Emails to the "authorized reseller" for my area have thus far been met with silence, and calls to their office have informed me that the reseller is "out of the office at the moment". Perhaps I'm too much of a small-fry to be taken seriously? I also don't like the hefty price of their "maintenance" fee (even if it is optional - I think incremental bug fixes should be free, especially if you are paying thousands of dollars for an application to begin with).

Another application that's recently been updated is Houdini (http://www.sidefx.com/index.html) . Have any of you used that application? If so, does it compare favorably to XSI and LW? Their website offers several video and pdf files explaining how to use it, and on the surface it doesn't seem too bad. The pricing is all over the place though. The base package lists for about $1300, while the upper end package costs $17,000! Of course, the package I'm most interested in (Houdini Escape (http://www.sidefx.com/sales/pricing/index.html) , for character animation) doesn't have its price listed on the website. :hmm:

zaam
04-29-2004, 03:47 PM
A couple of random points here —

gameboy — If you realy want to find out more on XSI options, go direct. Either request a response through the website or call Anick Gagné @ (514) 840-0264. She's very helpful.

Stone — your point is well made. The packages do excel in different areas; but beyond that, personal style and experience play a great role in application preference and useability. Whether one package at this level is really a better modeller, for instance, may be a relative question. Also for some, animation IS what defines the package, and LW has a long way to go to be on par with XSI in that area IMO.

It's worth noting that even the Advanced XSI is still a relatively young product and is still short on a few features. For instance, if you have LW and XSI both in your workflow, you might want to hang on to good old LW for a while if you need any Hypervoxel effects. And if you want rigid and soft body dynamics, you'll need the Essentials version ($4000) of XSI to give you what LW has (although XSI may have a more robust implementation).

My point is that LW still has its place, but it needs to evolve in order to maintain that place. I haven't received my v8 upgrade yet, but I am a little concerned about the direction the upgrade apparently has taken. Initially, the focus was to be primarily on workflow enhancements. Maybe they are present, but simply are not sexy enough to promote in pre-release materials, BUT I dearly hope they are there. The presence of a dopesheet is welcome (an unexcuseable omission to this point), but I would gladly trade most of the new features for more functionality. It's the little things that cripple an app's functionality, like the fact that the arrow keys advance the time slider in the main window, but not in the graph editor, like the fact that you cannot preview audio in the graph editor and have to view a waveform in the tiny time bar . . . the list is long. These are the fixes I want at 3 AM when I need to get a job finished. Unfortunately, these are not things that look great on feature lists, and make users want to run out and buy upgrades.

mocaw
04-29-2004, 05:44 PM
BTW - Limited region preview using Mental Ray in XSI is very comparable with F-Prime.

Only someone who doesn't have FPrime and use it for complex scenes with radiosity would say this. You can do a "limited" regon render in FPrime too- and it's even faster. It's simple- you shrink the window and then zoom in with the wheel on your mouse. Also- many people post examples of FPrime renders from the preview window- and this doesn't show the real speed and power of the app. In addition most people only test out scenes with "simple" objects or just a few. FPrime really shines when you have an ass load of lights and stuff going on. Please tell me you use FPrime and post one of your own shots to tell me you "know" about it.

I've noticed that the only FPrime bashers either A: don't have it or B: do simple scenes, with simple lighting, with simple textures and simple geometry. For people in the B cat. you can use many apps and get a quick render.

Yes there are many short comings to LW7.5 and 8...but don't pass judgement on FPrime until you've sat down with it for a month or so. It's 320k of hand coded wonder!

LNT
04-29-2004, 06:12 PM
is fprime faster than lightwave? - yes,it is

is fprime faster than xsi's render region? - yes,it is

is fprime better than either renderer? - no evidence of that,but fprime definitely still has limitations

lw modeling tools(including the free scripts and plugins) still offer more robust solution compared to xsi's modeling toolset
but lightwave workflow is crippled by the tri/quad SubD limitations
I also dont know if the new xsi has cubic mapping feature yet

in all the rest xsi clearly has the lead,apart maybe from Evasion3D plugins like microwave etc of which I dont know if xsi has its counterparts

Mwai Kasamale
04-29-2004, 06:34 PM
Yes Fprime is a marvel in that respect. The idea that XSI render Region does not shine in the same respect is untrue. Concidering all the control you have in XSI when it comes to lighting and rendering. Caustics, FG, and GI the speed is pretty impressive. No matter how complex your scene the speed is 'Just' as quick as FPrime. The difference being FPrime is a progressive refining renderer, meaning you see it work. The only difference I see is the fact that you see it.

I'll admit that Fprime is incredibly fast and hands down the fastest preview sysem avaliable, but its not necessarily needed in XSI or MAYA. Concidering how slow LW is the preception is that this is 'SO FAST'. Fprime only shed light on LW's slow renderer making it look all the faster.

Incidentally "Mental Ray" have stated that in their 4.0 and onward releases they intend on adding realtime preview of near final renders. How they'll do this I have no idea, but concidering how fast it is now. FPrime will have a run for its money.


Houdini

Houdini is a great tool, but its not for everyone. if you get kicks from setting everything up before going at it then Houdini is for you. I really like it because it makes setup feel limitless. you can go crazy on setting up stuff. the renderer is top notch and its translators for Renderman and Mental Ray shaders is unmatched. It lacks modules like cloth but has OPS that simulate such FX. CHaracter setup feels solid. The best thing about it is the Digital Asset creation tools. OTL's - you can build a complete rig save it as an OTL then load it with options like how many bones will be in the left arm or how big the head should be. Very similar to XSI's Rig maker tool but 10x more powerful. OTL's apply to everything from Geometry to Particles. I'm not sure whether it works with shaders though. Modeling is different but very nice, somewhat Winds3D like but with more options. I really like the SoftTransform tool. Houdini is the secret noone seems to be screaming about. If you want to work for some of the Big facilities, I'd reccommend getting to know Houdini.

I'm trying my damnedst to do just that. LW used to be my only tool, I tried XSI got to use it on a 3 jobs and know it well now, but Houdini is so, powerful and accessible concidering the level of usage in the worlds top facilities. I really reccomend giving it a try. Its taking about 3 out of the 6 hrs of my time with LW or XSI. Very cool tool.

mocaw
04-29-2004, 06:40 PM
The argument hasn't changed much in the last few years. If all you need is to model, animate and render then XSI is arguably a better deal at the foundation price. If you need some of the extras, and don't have the budget then LW is a better choice. What would you do if you were using the XSI Foundation version for freelance and the client wanted something that wasn't included in it?

Can you go and buy some plugs as good as the Worley ones for the same price?

It's also very cheap to do network renders in LW since the nodes are free to render farms.

It would be hard for me to decide as XSI even in it's foundation mode has stuff that you just can't get yet for LW. Still you could buy a base version of LW and XSI foundation or Maya complete and get a lot of mileage out of the combo for less money than buying the full versions of XSI or Maya.

These are questions that everyone has to ask on their own depending on what they need to do and for how much cash. For me I can't use the Foundation version because I NEED some of those extras. I know many designers that bought into the Maya hype factory though and would have been better off buying XSI Foundation (if it wasn't for their Mac loyalty).

fez
04-29-2004, 07:22 PM
"No matter how complex your scene the speed is 'Just' as quick as FPrime."

Have you actually used Fprime? I have used both XSI EXP and Fprime. Fprime seems much faster to me. We'll see what 4.0 and beyond brings though.

mocaw
04-29-2004, 07:44 PM
Incidentally "Mental Ray" have stated that in their 4.0 and onward releases they intend on adding realtime preview of near final renders. How they'll do this I have no idea, but concidering how fast it is now. FPrime will have a run for its money.

Do you won FPrime? Don't underestimate the ablity to SEE your changes in the Preview window- it's important and an a major part of how it speeds up the workflow. Will the XSI preview update automaticly- and mainly on the things that have changed? Will it allow for a progresive final render that you can improve on? The LW SDK is being opened up for FPrime so that it can preview and render everything...

What is wrong with you people? Speed is speed. XSI has some things that are 10X better than LW. Mental Ray isn't the speed demon of the rendering world. Ask anyone who does Arch Viz and they'll tell you that MAX has some of the best and fastest rendering- not Maya, not XSI. Blanket statments can't be proven in every situation. FPrime IS faster when a scene is very complex and animated in many situations. Due to LW's short commings though it doesn't do somethings that Mental Ray does. I'd argue to say that it's the fastest raytrace only engine though...

We're not talking about what if's here- we're talking about NOW. Hell in ten years poser could be a major app.

Rei Ayanami
04-29-2004, 08:07 PM
wtf

leigh
04-29-2004, 08:23 PM
This has become a pointless thread. I am sorry to close this, but some of the comments are a bit ridiculous now, and at any rate you guys know that we don't allow these comparison threads as they cause problems. Plus I am getting complaints about it from users.

gameboy
04-29-2004, 08:25 PM
zaam: Thanks for the direct contact info. I would like to order directly from SoftImage, but they don't appear to be set up to do that for all their software. Some companies are very protective of their dealer's "turf".:deal:

Mwai: Great comments you gave on Houdini. After watching a few demo videos and reading your comments, you got me stoked on trying the demo version of Houdini! I hope those OTL rigs are as reusable as SoftImage's character rigs. XSI has character designer, and it would be great if Houdini had something like that as well. :cool: