How many would use a 20, 3.2ghz P4 HT renderfarm?

[flingster]

my thoughts are you need a good net link.
pricing is very important to your offer..eg availability and cost.

[danb]

Thanks for replying flingster. If you mean internet connection type when you say netlink, i do have broadband cable and may upgrade to T1.

I should have posted more info on cost and availability.

If i find i have enough people i would like to have the customers be able to access the farm from home 24/7. So the customer could upload the scene to the farm and monitor progress and such. I'm thinking that i would charge 400+/- for a month per person of 'round the clock accessability.

But this could change depending on demand.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the broadband cable connection. Sufficient or not?

[3dg]

broadband will most likely not be sufficient. Most cable providers do not give symmetrical bandwidth. By this I mean your download speed from other servers to your computer may be quite fast (as hight as 3.5+Mbps) but your upload speed (the speed at which your potential customers can access the files on your render server) will be greatly crippled. I'm talking snail slow.

So you really should look into T1 or SDSL.

HTH

Gary

[danb]

Thanks 3dg. Do you have any idea of prices of sdsl, off the top of your head ballpark figures. I am going to start the search on this but just thought you might know.

[3dg]

In this area (Nashville, TN) it starts around $300/month (1.5Mbps both ways) or you can get really pretty fast (3.5+mbps both ways) for around $600/month. It's pricey, but if you have a few customers, it would pay for itself. And you could also set up a normal webserver and do real hosting...if you were inclilned to.

HTH

Gary

I currently use cable and am sharing my render network with 1 associate/client. If I ever get in a position to go to SDSL or T1, I will do it. Just can't justify it right now.

[danb]

Woops didn't read your whole post. Heh:shrug: (edited)

[3dg]

I was editing my post while you replied...

No SDSL or T1, but I do host FlashCom server and RenderServer through cable and using an app I made to broadcast my IP address (secretly) through my website.

Go to http://ingleinteractive.com/render.html

Click on "about". This page and all it's images are hosted from my renderserver in my home office.

[danb]

That's an excellent site 3dg. I have been there before. Those are the kinds of services i hope to provide. Although not as extensive as you can offer besides the render service.

Sorry i just snooped around a little. So do you offer a render service to artists or is it just to help yourself with projects? How many computers do you have running on the network?

What do you use FlashCom for? Flash websites maybe? Um?

Why do you broadcast your ip address? Is this how you manage to connect net render to the internet through broadband. I'm sure some of my questions will be answered once i install Net Render and fiddle around.

[3dg]

Thanks for the compliment.

I thought about offering a render service for artists, and as my shared network with my associate grows, that may be a viable service, but for now, it's just for me and him. It's only 5 PC's but they're all fairly new.

FlashCom server is a multiuser communications socket server. Using Flash pro, I can create multiuser applications like games, chat engines and video conferences. Right now, I'm just using it here at home to learn it. It does ok with up to 3 or 4 simultaneious video streams, but my cable connection starts to crap out beyond that. Once I feel ok with it, I will add it to my service list and start hosting FlashCom through MediaTemple.

Well, I guess "broadcast" isn't really the right term. I made a Director application that connects to a secret page on my site using PHP. The PHP script returns my IP address back to my server here at home, which then saves the data to a text file in a protected directory on the server that my site is hosted on (in Florida). Anytime my render page is accessed, the server points to the text file for the IP address. (this is it in a nutshell) I have to do this because my cable provider does not offer static IP addresses. (Mine changes every few weeks)

Another good reason to go with T1 or SDSL...static IP's...often a whole range of them are included (10 or 20 of them)

[Zimbo]

I have been thinking about the idea of an on-line render farm for a while. The main problem I see is downloading the results. Even a short animation can be few gigabytes. You might eventaully get the upload bandwidth, but are your customers going to have this kind of download bandwidth?

Also, how are you going to make the resulting files available to your customers? Unless I am missing something, the default C4D web server doesn't really have a simple way to download all the files (via a single command or button) from a resulting animation. When I run network renders, I always use the OS's file tools to move the resulting files back to my workstation. Are you going to offer FTP access or some other simple way to download 1000's of files?

Not trying to be negative, just thinking through all the problems. I think it is a great idea.

[danb]

Thanks zimbo. Those are all excellent points as well. Most likely i am going to have the option of FTP transfer. My preference would be for me to mail any resulting files on dvd or cd-rom, depending on size. I would not charge for media and if shipping charges are fair enough i would also include that for free. Besides one is only shipping a small dvd which is most likely fairly inexpensive.

Keep those thoughts coming.:thumbsup:

[3dg]

@zimbo: agreed. But he does need the bandwidth to allow people to be able to view frames as they are rendered. I don't think that with today's cable connection (most used for high bandwidth in people's homes) that FTP is yet a viable option for downloading gigs of data. I think shipping CD or DVD is the way to go.

[danb]

Hmm...I was just thinking. If i am just going to be using the internet to recieve scenes and allow users to view render jobs, then would broadband be sufficient?

Well i guess if i started to offer web hosting then i would need a T1 or SDSL connection, right?

[dann_stubbs]

Originally posted by 3dg
@zimbo: agreed. But he does need the bandwidth to allow people to be able to view frames as they are rendered. I don't think that with today's cable connection (most used for high bandwidth in people's homes) that FTP is yet a viable option for downloading gigs of data. I think shipping CD or DVD is the way to go.

for every 1 gig that is uploaded to my farm there is 3-4 gig downloaded. - i have a commercial cable modem account.

the biggest concern i think danb will face is the technical issues - asking and waiting for a forum user to help out won't fly for most renderfarm users - paying $1 or $1000 to access it - even though my farm costs 1/5 to 1/20 of a normal renderfarm cost - the demands of the users are no less and it is just about to hit two years running (danb is sort of emulating my farm - he has asked plenty of questions about it) my farm does have a couple steady users for c4d - i would hope that there are enough all around to support his expenses - the more options the better for c4d.

i don't need the income to keep my going is the biggest advantage i have - and i am glad i never needed to depend on it to keep it running be honest. not really a money maker once you factor in expenses etc... i would love to have more cpu's but i can't justify the need for myself.

i will be interested to see how it goes when he gets it running myself. : )

dann

[3dg]

Originally posted by dann_stubbs
for every 1 gig that is uploaded to my farm there is 3-4 gig downloaded. - i have a commercial cable modem account.

Well, I gotta admit...that is quite surprising. What is your upload throughput? In my area, even with a commercial account, it's around 768kbps.

Thanks for the eye-opener.

Gary

[danb]

I just wanted to say that i hope no one thinks that i am trying to take business from Dann. As he mentioned i had asked him some questions in regard to emulating his style of renderfarm. I like the way that someone is on his subscription and paying almost each and every month. The main reason i am doing this is to try to make enough money from it to pay my rent, which is basically 800$/ month. Jobs here on the cape are slim to none. So i am just trying to think of a way to supplement my income. I have happened upon some money through family members and thought that instead of using it for rent i would use it to generate business. Sort of a long term solution.

Also i want to thank you Dann for your help so far. I do feel a little ashamed of asking who would use a renderfarm but i am just trying to get a feel for the whole thing. I understand that right now it shows that i don't have much experience with this sort of thing but i gotta start somewhere right. Plus Cinema4d's render solution seems pretty straight forward and i feel like i will learn quickly. I do have experience setting up and maintaining a few small buisness networks around the area.

[dann_stubbs]

Originally posted by danb
I just wanted to say that i hope no one thinks that i am trying to take business from Dann. As he mentioned i had asked him some questions in regard to emulating his style of renderfarm. I like the way that someone is on his subscription and paying almost each and every month. The main reason i am doing this is to try to make enough money from it to pay my rent, which is basically 800$/ month. Jobs here on the cape are slim to none. So i am just trying to think of a way to supplement my income. I have happened upon some money through family members and thought that instead of using it for rent i would use it to generate business. Sort of a long term solution.

Also i want to thank you Dann for your help so far. I do feel a little ashamed of asking who would use a renderfarm but i am just trying to get a feel for the whole thing. I understand that right now it shows that i don't have much experience with this sort of thing but i gotta start somewhere right. Plus Cinema4d's render solution seems pretty straight forward and i feel like i will learn quickly. I do have experience setting up and maintaining a few small buisness networks around the area.

if you can use it as part of your business efforts that that will help you - for just a money maker alone - it is more of a break even most of the time for me.

i think it could be a good thing - there are multiple farms for other platforms and by being so much more affordable in pricing and plan - that may be a nice benefit for c4d users.

good to hear you do have some networking etc experience - the stuff is mostly the c4d questions and out of memory issues with windows that cause the most email. the others are just normal stuff - connectivity etc.

to add to the other note on data transfer - the biggest questions you will get is most people don't fully understand the uneven split of their own broadband connection. it is like an 90/10 split most of the time (varies of course) so it could be 800k downstream for fast downloads but as slow as 20k uploads - the think your server is "slow" because most users only ever download and see that speed.

the cable companies know this and because few can afford such fast upload speeds - they can offer huge download speeds that really for the most part go untapped. i get 3-4 mb downstream and about 1mb upstream. but there is pretty much nothing out there to ever match that downsteam speed - only as fast as whoever's upload speed effectively.

i think we've talked before about the prices and the electricity is about $300-$350 per month for my cpu's alone - of course up north you won't need to run your heat in the winter - but you will still definately need an AC most of the year. about a year ago the AC went out in my studio and in less then 10 minutes the room temp was 101 degrees. lost a few power supplies on that day (at $70 each). add to that the upgrade costs of software (boy it seems to get more and more often every year) and then connectivity costs... it adds up fast.

as i said, i am interested to see how it goes... will you have a web page etc? as i said, i never really started this as a money maker - so it will be interesting to see how it goes for you... if it works out for you i may try some upgrades etc myself...

dann

[danb]

Hey Dann. Thanks again for the replies i really appreciate your input. I am aware of the broadband upload/download differences. So i guess the only thing i can do is to explain to the customer why that happens. Thanks again for stating how much the electricity is for you. Its nice to know that i could heat my apartment with my computers.:thumbsup: Oil prices are rediculous here. I guess it could be a good thing that winters last until may and summer ends in sept. :shrug:

As to your question about the web page, yes i will be putting up a web page similar to 3dg's. No i don't mean like the graphics he has up. I mean basically most of the services he offers. I am going to start to do some DVD authoring, website design, freelance graphic design, 3d modelling/animation, etc. I have done a few things in the past and have been asked to do some things recently but i did not have a page up so i didn't get the jobs. Things have been pretty hectic lately but are starting to simmer down. I am hoping the renderfarm may help generate some CG business also. It seems like it would be a decent way to make some good contacts in the industry.

Dann how do you get the finished projects to your customers? Do you rely only on download?

Well thanks again all for the advice. Keep it coming.

[ominae]

The trick is set the server NOT in your render-farm, but in a computer in your COSTUMER house. While your computers render, your costumer get the results in "real time" so there is no need to wait 4 or 5 extra days more to download the result because every computer is sending the result when it finish the frame and while it renders the next frame.

Do not know if you understand me. For example, I could contract you in that way and pay per frame, for example 0.1 € per frame , that is 2.5 € per second, 150 € per minute!!.

I do not need it now, is just and example.

[danb]

Ominae, that's how i thought it worked in the first place. I got thrown for a loop when people started talking about bandwidth and other things. Thanks for posting that point.

So the way you are describing is its almost like having the renderfarm in one's house. Does anybody do it this way?

What about security issues with renderfarms? Has anybody heard or had any problems?

[danb]

Oops, hit submit too many times.:shrug:

[3dg]

Originally posted by ominae
The trick is set the server NOT in your render-farm, but in a computer in your COSTUMER house. While your computers render, your costumer get the results in "real time" so there is no need to wait 4 or 5 extra days more to download the result because every computer is sending the result when it finish the frame and while it renders the next frame.

Yes, technically it would work this way, but what if you have 3 customers all trying to render at the same time? Are you suggesting that each customer gets their own install of the server? This would be working against the license agreement.

If you have an unlimited Net license, it's the clients that are unlimited, not the server.

The server has to be managed by danb.

[ominae]

Originally posted by 3dg
Are you suggesting that each customer gets their own install of the server? This would be working against the license agreement.

If you have an unlimited Net license, it's the clients that are unlimited, not the server.

Hi 3dg

Do not remember but I think server software comes with each copy of C4D, at least it comes in my bundle, so if the customer has C4D to work he has one server license. Do not know if this is accurate.

My advice comes because I have 3 pc in my office that I use to render my 3D homework. If I set the server in the office my PAL uncompressed .mov takes time to render + a lot of time to download, but If I set the server in my home I get the file in my local hard drive, ready to play when the last frame is finished.

[3dg]

OK, I see where you're coming from now. That's a good idea if you have only one customer, but otherwise you'll be going to all of your client machines and manually changing the client.ini file on them to point at each customer's server.

What if you have more than one customer at a time? Do you just split the machines in half and point some to one server and the rest to the other?

The other issue, is that most of the customers will not have static IP addresses. They will have to sign up with a service that redirects a static IP to their dynamic one, or use an application similar to the one I made for my renderfarm.

I like the idea you have suggested, I'm just playing devil's advocate because I think there are several issues that would have to be addressed.

Gary

[flingster]

am i missing something here..but whether its the server or the client..the data has to be transmitted over the network..either way its unlikely to be any faster...also danb..bare in mind any computer connected to any network is essentially a security risk.
:shrug:

[3dg]

Well, technically the files still take the same amount of time to transfer, but they would be transferred to the customer's server as they are rendered.

So the end result is that when the job is finished rendering, the files will already be there instead of waiting another couple of days to transfer them at the end.

[flingster]

ok i'm getting your thinking...but surely keep server run at your end less hassle with config etc....then as the clients dump files on the server...just transfer/upload them to the user from a temp directory with a perl script or something and away you go...no diff.
:shrug:

edit: in fact surely it gives you more options to batch the transfer...zip em up...eg x zips of 10 files etc..then confirms transfers etc..can log it the lot...excellent for costing...could even upload em to a clients webserver if they wanted..surely more flexible...albeit you need to do some scripting or something...just a thought anyways...its good to bash things like this out i recon anyways.

[dAfTiE]

Yeah,Perl would be a good choice for zipping up x amount of files and sending them,
or whatever else you need...should be a fairly quick and easy script to write.
Could even do a CGI script so the customer has a nice html interface or whatever.
Heh,given the Perl community,there might even be a script out there already that'll serve ya :)

And yeah,keep the server running locally...
That way you don't have to deal with peoples computers shutting down,
or lusers config probs or whatever...

Would suck if you've got a paying gig and problems at some other location did you out of some cash.

[yogert909]

If you're running the server on a mac, you could write an applescript as a folder action that would send the frames to another ip as they are deposited in the results folder.

[imashination]

The trick is set the server NOT in your render-farm, but in a computer in your COSTUMER house.

LOL!, er, no, that is not the trick at all! You will be sending gigs upon gigs of data to each client via the net if you do that, and that doesnt include returning the files to the server. We have been having enough bandwidth problems over a 100mbit network. I cannot imagine any way on earth how that could work.

[danb]

Strange how things work. I was just going over some things yesterday about this renderfarm i would like to start, and the thread revives itself. I swear i've got some serious Karma or whatever its called:)

I'm not sure its feasible for me to start a renderfarm anymore. Everytime i turn around someone is starting a new one or has somehow gotten access to one. Maybe there will be more users now that c4d has anything a small user could ask for especially with cloth. Seems like this would attract a lot of people. Plus p4 3ghz prices are dropping nicely...Hmm... Time will tell i guess.

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