View Full Version : Photorealism: WW2 aircraft
04-22-2004, 09:15 PM
Hi all! :wavey:
Here is my latest work:
>>NB. Bigger & improved colour version on page 2<<
Couldn't decide which one is better. The black&white one is more realistic I guess, but the colour one is... well... more colourful! So I posted them both so you can decide for yourself which one you like best! :)
04-22-2004, 09:19 PM
looks great. I realy want to do some ww1/ww2 aircraft myself soon, I think your work is the best iv seen.
I like the colour one best
keep it up:thumbsup:
04-22-2004, 09:25 PM
I like #1 better...only because were so acustomed to seeing black and white ww2 films...so it seems to fit better....
04-22-2004, 09:30 PM
really great work. My preference is the colour picture, the B/W doesn't have scratches and noise so doesn't look as "old" as it makes out. BTW is that a geometry background? if it is it looks mint!
04-22-2004, 09:38 PM
1. The reflection map should match the sky and the ground.
2. The paint should be rubbed off on the leading edges of the plane.
3. It needs some dirt to break up the specularity.
4. It needs lightwrap, it's neccesary since the background is brighter than the plane.
5. Check the light source. The lights, and shadows on the trees, and ground indicate the sun is at the left, not from above.
04-22-2004, 10:24 PM
I have no words to explain ...
this is a really perfect work !
- i like at most the b/w image
- everything is great done
:beer: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
FIRST PAGE !
04-22-2004, 10:24 PM
Thanks very much for the comments!
Mushroomgod, thanks! :blush: But please check out the links section of my website. It's got some links to great 3D aviation art!
Or even better, go here: http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=39835
Congrats on the front-page plug with your African woman! Well deserved, she's lovely!
Bredro1, colour photography was quite common in WW2. Unfortunately the larger public is only familiar with black&white images from this time.
The background is made from a photograph, taken near my home.
Marc001, I appreciate your comments. But I have to disagree on a few points:
1) They do, as the reflectionmap matches the background 100% perfectly since it uses the same environment and is raytraced.
2) There is chipped paint - look closer or check your monitor's brightness/contrast settings. The effect is subtle, as in real life (or else the plane would have gotten a new paint job). Also, the plane is painted in aluminium dope on bare metal, which makes paintchips all but obvious.
3) I have a wartime reference photo of this plane. It is not dirty at all and the highlights appear very uniform. Training aircraft are normally very well maintained, compared to front-line machines. In fact, the paint chips I added myself, as I didn't see any on the reference photo.
4) It has! It's most noticeable in the gap created by the right wing and the tail. The effect is kept fairly subtle, as stronger lightwrap destroyed too much detail and didn't make the picture look better.
Are you viewing from a laptop or flatscreen monitor by any chance? It seems your screen is not picking up subtle light variations very well.
5) This one is well spotted, although the difference is not nearly as big as you might think. The lightsource on the background photo is roughly from the left-top corner - not from the left. The (self-made) photo shows a down-sloping hill, making the shadows appear longer. I did move the lightsource a bit higher (but it's still from the top-left), to bring out a more interesting highlights on the fuselage and prevent a very strong highlight over the entire glass canopy (the sides of which are flat), which would obscure a lot of detail. Justifiable artistic license, I'd say! ;)
I intentionally left the images clean. Scratches are a bit of a cheap effect, IMHO. They're very easy to add and don't really help the quality of the overall image/composition. But just for you, here's a scratched version of the black&white one. The scratches took about 2 minutes to add!
Brogh, thanks! I'm glad you like it!
Thanks again guys! :)
04-22-2004, 10:40 PM
i've seen the other pic you've posted it a minute after my post, it looks relly like an old picture, maybe more scratches ?
- maybe a more yellow color, like the picture seems to have the ( i don't know how to tell this in english ) .... the effect of the sunlight when you let a picture for years in it's light, it assumes a yellowish color ( hope you understood )
nice image, every one gets better.
for the critz I would expect the aluminum dope to pick up more color at incident angles for the fuselage and wings. It looks like youve got incident reflections on but I would see it also picking up ground colors in there. The yellow (while I"m sure youve got a color guide) feels a little desaturated and feels like it was a quick attempt to blend it in to the image or make it feel more wwII.
I think working on the pilot would be a great place to make this look more real. He has very clean lines and feels cg. I think it would help to alleviate this by roughing up his silouette (its windy in there ;) )
I think theres still room for improvment in the spec and reflection maps. But it might come more from lighting. I know everytime I get an aircraft looking good I get put back into place by looking at pictures of real aircraft next to it.
great image, and I'll have to get you to send me some pics for test comps if thats right by your house!
:thumbsup: good one
04-22-2004, 11:33 PM
Just wonderin about the motion blur on the prop.I don`t claim to be any aviatry genious...but for some reason it dosen`t look right to me.I assume this is a 2 blade prop....and mabey the m/b is correct...but I thought it should be more circular and less static...if that makes any sence.I suppose it depends on the rpm of the engine...and the shutter speed of the film if this was a picture representation.
04-22-2004, 11:36 PM
looks awesome mate, very good work :)
As a longtime admirer of your work I have to say another winner. Both are very good though the color version seems more modern as if a shot at an air show. Period color photos of the time were more vibrant, almost exaggerated.
Regardless, excellent work all around.
04-23-2004, 07:03 AM
Nice. I prefer the BW version. :bounce:
You allways has the best looking plane/jey models around. :p
04-23-2004, 08:22 AM
very beutiful work man:beer:
do prefer the colored version myself even though it might not be the most realistic of them:buttrock:
04-23-2004, 08:50 AM
Fantastic model and render! I prefer the colour version myself. No crits...it looks just fine to me. ;) Always a pleasure to see your work mate.
My MachineFlesh Challenge (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=138004)
04-23-2004, 02:35 PM
Wow!!! very great job
the two versions are awesome but i prefer the color one ...
04-23-2004, 06:40 PM
awesome work dude, congratulations
04-23-2004, 07:04 PM
I don't have question man !
Just amazing work :thumbsup:
04-23-2004, 07:16 PM
Your models definitely rule the sky! :thumbsup:
Only thing I don't really like is the wheels but that's nitpicking considering the aircraft is amazing.
04-24-2004, 01:11 AM
I prefer the color version of that image, the textures look very good.
04-24-2004, 01:43 AM
thats amazing.. i love both of them
man i would do anythgn to be able to do stuff like that
04-24-2004, 11:23 AM
These images look great.
The most "photographic" images you've made to date.
very convincing :thumbsup:
04-24-2004, 01:46 PM
I like the black & white one better:) It's perfect! Congratulations, Ronnie;)
Just amazing !
Please post a wire !!!!
04-24-2004, 11:11 PM
Thanks very much for all the comments! I think I messed too much with the colours on the colour one, judging from some of your comments. O well... better luck next time!
Arai, the reflections are picking up ground colours, and the yellow was pretty accurate. But I guess I desaturated the image too much... :rolleyes:
And yes, you are so right about my pilot model... it's been the weakest part of my models for years already. It's really time I make a new one, but the thought of spending time on a pilot rather than on an aircraft is unbearable already! :p
But considering this was just a quick in-between project without any meaning, overall I am pretty happy with the result and all your comments :)
HV2, here's a wireframe for you. For your info: the model is polymodelling + meshsmooth and weighs in at about 75,000 triangles, excluding pilots. I'm pretty happy with the mesh on this one. I only had few problems modelling it. Only the fabric covered panels on the sides of the fuselage were a bit tricky to merge in with the rest of the mesh. They were constructed seperately to define the fabric-covered ribs nicely, without wasting tons of polygons. And the converging, overlapping canopy parts were a bit confusing. But in the end it worked out, luckily. I hope you know what I'm talking about! Anyway, here's the wireframe:
Hey Ronnie, very neat/clean looking mesh, especially since you modeled in the fabric covered sections. Well done!
04-25-2004, 11:32 AM
very good work !:)
04-25-2004, 11:36 AM
Thanks Weist, Evan! :)
Okay I couldn't resist and did a last attempt to cheer up the colours again! :)
Here's a larger image as well for your viewing pleasure :D
04-25-2004, 02:53 PM
I thought it was a real image from somewhere. Awesome. I love the b/w more.
04-25-2004, 04:24 PM
Awesome, as usual, especially the b&w one.
I think you can try to desaturate the color version.
What about a clean & closer image?
BTW, strange markings for an US trainer!
04-25-2004, 06:00 PM
O WOW! A front page plug!!! :bounce:
Thanks a lot guys! :)
Shuwan, thanks! That was basically the biggest compliment you could give me! :)
Capblood, strange markings indeed. I'll explain: The French bought a lot of these NA-57 trainers from the USA. Then in 1940 France was invaded by the Germans and all these planes were still brand-new. So the Luftwaffe took them on charge and used them for fighter pilot training.
When I find some good references, I'll do a French version of it as well. Some of them had a colourful red-yellow striped tail.
04-25-2004, 06:14 PM
Looks very well done!
(did thy fly with open cockits?)
04-25-2004, 07:23 PM
I have seen a couple of threads with your work on here, always awesome stuff.
Hi, i like the wire & final render :bowdown:
I put this AMAZING image on my desktop :scream:
I very love this image, Beautiful the shading is awesome !
Good luck...hv2...(toyo) the second name
soory for my bad english
04-25-2004, 09:49 PM
I'm sure you already know this pages:
The first one seems to be a simple painting scheme.
This one is definitively more artistic:
04-25-2004, 10:43 PM
looks like a real photo to me, I really like the attention to detail and put just where needed. I like the fact that you put the ribbed effect in the material fabric sides, maybe something I may have missed when making it, but it really stands out and adds something to the image that you don't usually see.
this is some top shelf sh!t man!
ok ok, :thumbsup:
I really like your work. I used to be fan of WWII planes.
Did you used to do any scale plastic modeling?
04-26-2004, 12:07 AM
Skyraider3D awesome stuff...as always!
Well done man. No negative crits on this one.
04-26-2004, 12:21 AM
superb. there are areas that could be improved, but if I hadn't been made aware of them I would have thought this were a photo. not often I'm fooled! very nice work indeed.
ps i personally prefer the 1st colour version that's less saturated. you could spend 2 months making different colour moods :) you have to know when to stop!
excellent stuff indeed!
04-26-2004, 12:39 AM
Thanks a lot everyone for the replies! :)
Wolf S: Yes, flying with open cockpit was quite common for these kind of aircraft. WW2 aircraft usually had a tailwheel (taildraggers) and forward view from the cockpit was bad. Opening the cockpit could help a bit (so you could stick your head out). Additionally (and more importantly) taildraggers have the inherent risk of tipping over the nose on heavy landing on a grass airfield - ending upside down in the grass. This can be fatal if your cockpit is closed and your plane catches fire - you're trapped! So taildragger pilots usually land with open cockpit. The plane in the render is not necessarily landing though (flaps are up, as it looked nicer).
HV2, my next subject is a Romanian plane (German design, though):
It's already in final stages of texturing.
Capblood, thanks very much for taking the effort to find some references for the French variant. I really appreciate that. But you've guessed it: I already know the links. The painting is indeed the aircraft I want to make, but I still have too many questions regarding the paintscheme that need solving first. And I've never seen a photo of it, which I prefer much over using a painting as reference.
Wyatt, LOL! ;)
Ch3, yes, but I haven't done so for 10 years now... I really liked it though!
Zardoz, thanks! I see from your links you've been busy! I'll have a look through those tomorrow and leave some replies. The octopus is particularly nice! (Hey that rhymes!)
Mothermachine, you're spot on with your comment about colour tweaks. It's very personal and can last forever. No wonder many people like the black&white one!
04-26-2004, 01:04 AM
uhhh, wow! :) I'm totally amazed at the work, but looking at the two, I would venture to say that the color one is better. That one seems to fit it as a "re-creation" work; I.E. Movie remakes.
I think the b&w one needs a little more distortion to it, for the plane seems really clean.
Again my hats off to you and your great work!
04-26-2004, 01:27 AM
I choose the 2nd color one!! That yellow was strange in the first one, althoug i like that desaturated feel in the metal...
Perfect and clean modeling, really good texturing!
No crits from me:)
This model would be great with the scheme in the picture posted by capblood!!!!
04-26-2004, 02:45 AM
Excellent, Bravo! :beer:
04-26-2004, 04:37 AM
Yeah so I checked this out earlier and was like "hey cool! I like the color one better." Then I came back just now and saw your avatar and realized who you were and... yeah man, your plane models are always top-notch. I myself prefer the color one much, much more. B&W always looks like an attempt to hide bad shading to me. But it's not, the color version is vibrant and awesome. I don't think it's totally photo-real but that's not a problem. It has the sort of hyper-real style of Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers, which I just love more than any "photoreal" images.
What I think you can do to improve this image is give it some motion blur. Give the camera a high-frequency nodal jitter and give the plane itself an animation curve and render with 3D motion blur. I believe this will give you the quality of films where aircraft "buzz" the camera of sorts and you get the feeling that there is an actual shockwave hitting the screen.
Lastly, I am in beginning my own plane very soon and don't have much idea on how to do the propeller, the motion blur that always results, you know what I mean. Could you PM me some basic instructions on that? Thanks.
04-26-2004, 09:36 AM
looks good (I didn't have time to read the rest of the posts so this may already ave been addressed), only thing I can see improving on is the pilot, he looks just too cg, fatten him up some and give him some baggier cloths or something to give him some more soul if you know what I mean.
I saw the photo, but where's the render? :P
Gret work my friend!
04-26-2004, 02:38 PM
I just wished you provided more tech info. Software use, renderer used, etc. It looks really good. The lighting is excellent.
04-26-2004, 04:55 PM
Why oh why would people want to add scratches to such a perfect image? :P
It's really great, well done.
04-26-2004, 06:11 PM
Just wanted to say that I like your images. They look nice.
04-26-2004, 07:20 PM
:applause: awesome... the B\W version is better ...
I love open cockpits
i thought so (about the plastic modelling), by the time you've made so many WWII planes, it has to be a kind of a passion.
I used to do that for 5 years when I was a bit younger, and I find many similarities with the 3d stuff, especially when it comes to texturing. Also its a kind of hobby that needs lots of patient.
04-26-2004, 08:31 PM
Thanks everyone for all the kind replies! It is very much appreciated!
It's really interesting to see how half of you prefer the black and white one, and the other half the colour one! I guess this means I will be doing two versions of my renders from now on! ;)
Zepedro, I will indeed make the red-yellow striped French machine soon! I'm currently collecting references and most issues have been solved already. There is also a variant in dark green instead of light gray. I think I'll make both and put them in a formation flight, just like this wartime photo (http://www.airwarfareforum.com/upld/img/O-1082972252-0oJtQcGM.jpg), but in colour too!
WhiteRabbit, there are two techniques for motionblurred propellers. Firstly you can use Object Motion Blur (in 3DSMAX). Animate your propeller, in the trackview set the out-of-range controller to "relative repeat", enable Object Motion Blur on the propeller object and off you go. It's very time consuming though, and for stills you're better off fudging it altogether with an alpha mapped plane! Photoshop's radial blur filter is a lot faster! As you can see from the wireframe on page two... I fudged it! :p
For animations Object Motion Blur is preferred, as alpha mapped planes may look weird (as they're flat), and don't catch highlights.
SCIFI_3D_zoo, thanks! Here are some tech details:
The mesh started life as the Sk14 (http://home.wanadoo.nl/r.j.o/skyraider/sk14_1.htm) which I modelled a year ago in 3DSMAX4. It was converted to the quite similar NA-57 in MAX5. Textures and post-processing was done in Photoshop. I've used the standard scanline renderer with my E-Light MAXScript (http://home.wanadoo.nl/r.j.o/skyraider/e-light.htm) and one raytraced directional light. The model is around 75,000 triangles and uses a 3000x1000 pixel texture for the fuselage, two 2500x600 textures for the wings and an 800x350 texture for the stabiliser. It has diffuse, specular and bump maps, which are also used in some other channels (glossiness, ambient colour, specular colour, etc...). Reflections are blurred raytraced, which took a hell of a long time to render!
ZB-Rob, I know I know! It's terrible isn't it? :D
Ch3, for me 3D modelling is the perfect alternative to plastic scale modelling! Most of all because it's clean! No more glue and paint stains all over the place. No more bloody injuries with modelling knifes and awls and such (I'll spare you the gory details!). No more missing and breaking parts. A cleaner desk (yea right!). I never have to clean any airbrushes either and my models don't collect dust. I do miss it though, in a masochistic kind of way! Not to mention the intoxicating thinner fumes! LOL! It also means I can make any model I want, at any scale, and "photograph" it against any background without having to worry about exposure and macro focus. As an added benefit I can animate virtual model. The only drawback is that you can't touch them. But you shouldn't do this with scale models anyway! :D Anyway... as you can tell I did like this hobby as a teen. Have a look here, by the way. You might like it: http://www.hyperscale.com
Finally I want to apologise for my pathetic website which clearly has a very low bandwidth limit. It will be down for another two hours until midnight CET (11 PM GMT) when the counters will be resetted. Sorry for the inconvenience!
04-26-2004, 08:32 PM
I only have one crit, the pilot looks a little stiff. He seem like he would be leaning into the turn a little bit or something?
04-26-2004, 08:37 PM
Just wonderful! I have no crits. If it was a photo people would still find things wrong with it. Just perfect in my book!!!
04-26-2004, 10:21 PM
Only two things I add:
1) The direction of the lighting on the aircraft doesn't match that in the background (one problem of using photos as backgrounds ;) ), so to my eye it looks slightly 'off'.
2) The b&w image looks slightly too over-exposed and contrasty, compared to how a true b&w photo would look - unless, of course, that was the whole idea ;)
Fantastic image. Always a fan of your work (I like planes) and always appreciate the attention to accurate details. I guess I like the color one, things always look more photoreal in B&W, sort of an easy way of eliminating variables, but getting full color to look real is more of a challenge (and you succeeded).
you forgot the noisy compressor :)
but yea you are right about how messy the work area was with all that stuff. And yea that dust is a real problem. I still have about 30 models in my room with a nice dusty camouflage :P, and if i try to clean them, something will brake and my glues have gone out of date.
but oh well... it was fan :hmm:
btw have you modeled any 109 ?
04-27-2004, 12:13 AM
Beautiful, Beautiful, beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great work man....this is real good !!!.......
I love the great detail in the texture and model.....
Well I realy like your works..... :applause:
04-27-2004, 07:54 AM
Thats really awesome.
I like both version. Amazing work!
04-27-2004, 07:21 PM
Thanks for the additional comments and crits. Much appreciated.
Frizzank, yes and no :) Yes, he is stiff, as he's strapped against his seat. And no, he wouldn't lean into the turn as pilots always try to keep the combination of gravity and centrifugal forces pulling downwards along the aircraft's local vertical axis. A good pilot would be able to pour a drink while making a looping (I have seen video of this!), without spilling.
Jerry, I've already explained earlier about the reason why the light is slightly off. And as ChrisJ says, people will even flaw photographs! ;) (I have, LOL!)
Ist, thank you very much. And I agree, colour is much harder!
Ch3, true! But I got myself a tiny and rather quiet model ;)
I did model 1 complete and two half models of the Bf 109. The complete one was the ancient Airfix 1/72 model (and it was rubbish!) and the other two half ones were scratchbuilt 1/24th scale attempts. The second one went rather well, and was looking promising, but I never managed to finish it. I got into troubles with the engine cowling (it was the G-10 model) and then lost interest in that project and subsequently in modelling all together.
04-27-2004, 08:21 PM
I'm not interested in aircrafts, but it's an excellent work!
04-28-2004, 03:21 AM
Nice job Skyraider....I'm kinda torn..the B&W works slightly better for me but I'd prefer the colour one save it seems a bit desaturated and sinks a little too much into the BG. I think this is possibly more a lighting than texturing issue and for my tastes gives a slightly too 'illustrative' effect.
Maybe that is what you are aiming for... I've just seen quite a few pics of similar planes and have been struck by just how strident real life colours can be and that is very much tinting my perception at the moment. :)
04-28-2004, 05:48 PM
Frenkie, thanks very much for your reply! It's good to know that somebody who doesn't like aircraft still appreciates my work! :)
Xynaria, I've had a wide variety of comments on this one - the colour one that is. Basically anything from "I thought it was a photo" to "nice painting", which I find really funny in a way :) I try to achieve photorealism but unintentionally get a soft painterly look (which most people like, actually, so it's not too bad). I guess it's become my style, although I do try to get away from the painterly feeling a bit, as ultimately I want my work to be throroughly convincing as a photo(*). This isn't easy, as with WW2 warbirds I can't rely on showroom gloss and pure crispness. It's gotto look old somehow...
Currently my models, textures, materials and light setups are getting increasingly complex. I guess this is the only way to achieve true photo realism: detail overkill and spot-on lighting (excuse the pun!) :D
PS. Did you see the less-desaturated version on page 2? I think you'll like it better.
(*) This is also the reason I only make obscure planes, as I feel it's pointless to make a photo-render of an F-16, when you can go out and make a real photograph of them on an airshow!
Very nice rendering, ronnie. Congrats :beer:
I too like the b+w version more.
For a color photo i would have tried to make it like a colored b+w photo.
My parents still have some photo of their house from the 30ies which is hand colored.
Maybe they borrow me the photo for a scan to show you what i mean.
05-14-2004, 06:42 PM
For some reason (hackers) the forum seems to have backdated itself a few days.
Gryphon, you sent me a message, but I never got it. Could you send it again please? Thanks!
05-14-2004, 07:22 PM
wow how realistic
great work, pal. :)
05-14-2004, 08:31 PM
Great stuff, love it :thumbsup: !
05-15-2004, 10:08 AM
I think the colored one is better. It's not less realistic, cause u can find plenty of movies or pictures made in color, already at WWII. Maby u should have seen these pictures to inspire ur work. But something disturb me: Why this aircraft, which is an american training model, has luftwaff colors painted on? Is it a captured aircraft? I found that strange, because training models are not expected to be captured.
05-15-2004, 02:57 PM
Best composition Ive seen this entire day! Great work man. Hope to see more of your stuff. :thumbsup:
05-17-2004, 08:48 PM
Thanks for the additional comments guys! Very much appreciated :)
Jintz, have a look on my website for more stuff :)
Arno, glad you like the coloured one. WW2 in colour is much more interesting, in my opinion.
As for the American plane in German colours... The French received a large number of them from the USA just before WW2. Next it was captured in France by the invading Germans in 1940. They basically captured the entire French air force (or what was left of it) when France "surrendered". This included hundreds of training aircraft too, including many NA-57s and NA-64s (improved all-metal variant). So now you understand that training aircraft were captured too, and in large numbers at that! In fact, a very great deal of German pilots earned their wings on captured aircraft (mostly from Chechoslovakia and France). On a final note, as announced a few posts earlier, I will also make one or two French coloured variants of the NA-57, once I find some spare time.
i like it a lot, if i were you, i would remove the character :) it looks realistic except the pilot...
05-17-2004, 09:12 PM
Wow excellent stuff man :)
I'm not sure which one I like best... I like the color one because you can see more of the texture detail you put into the plane, but the black and white one totally rocks too!
Decisions...decisions...I shall have both thank you ;)
06-22-2004, 11:36 PM
Okan, without character it would be a ghost plane! But you are absolutely right... he does need replacement... badly! It's such an old model! It doesn't even have texture maps! :rolleyes:
Imatk, thanks for your comments! :)
06-23-2004, 12:03 AM
06-23-2004, 12:11 AM
Very nice job, great textrues. No crits. :buttrock:
P.S. its been a while since i posted on cgtalk and i am really happy with the new posting options.
06-23-2004, 12:13 AM
Wonderful photorealistic render! Great modelling, texturing and lighting!
i am divided as well between the two versions but i think the b/w one can look more like a top-secret document;) which conveys a nice feeling but the colour one is incredibly photorealistic as well and you can see the wonderful texturing.
They are both excellent so congrats on your achievement!! :thumbsup:
06-23-2004, 02:12 AM
i remember this from some time ago, the black and white version is very realistic!
06-23-2004, 06:59 AM
not a fan of planes..
but really nice.. especially the 1st pic
06-23-2004, 02:22 PM
this is top stuff!
the pilot reeeeaaaaalllly stands out to me.
i cant stress that enough. My eyes are brought straight to his
very shiny blinn like head.
just turn him down a bit... make it extra matte if you have to
its just that he stands out heaps and makes the whole
image look cg. otherwise its awesome... so thats a shame
07-05-2004, 06:54 PM
Thanks once more guys!!! :)
Phildog, one day I'll replace it! Promise! ;)
Rikaro, the fact that you don't like planes but still took the effort to reply means a lot to me! Thanks! :D
01-18-2006, 02:00 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.
vBulletin v3.0.5, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.