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gmask
04-21-2004, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by JDex
Seems like a silly, pointless promotion then. :shrug:

Okay well not being able to leave well enough alone.. I have gotten more information about that now expired "trade-in" promotion. You were required to send I guess one of three things either the manuals, cd's or dongle. Of course if you sent your dongle you would be SOL. Basically as far I can tell you as long as you sent them manuals or CD's which doesn't neccessarily mean you owned a license (recent threads about ebay for instance) then you would have gotten this discount. I think there was also some paperwork that asked you to not use your old software but as I suspected you were not nor could they make such an offer where you actually transfer your license to Avid/Softimage.

rock
04-21-2004, 08:38 PM
All these trade-in business - Doesn't Microsoft do this already in the antitrust case? Don't buy from others and we will bundle these with this. Don't use this and we will give you these to replace that at no charge. :)

bubba_989
04-21-2004, 08:40 PM
Why is that these kinds of posts always lead to flame wars based on the age old my software is better than your software pissing contests?
I wanted to read a post about cool new features and I have to wade through 100's of useless posts to do so.
You would think that 3D users were almost religious about their software. I use what makes me money.......
bunch of idiotic zealots......

bmwolf
04-21-2004, 08:41 PM
mjv,
perhaps you misunderstood me! letís say at the time you purchased at the promo price you needed the extra nodes and a really good cloth simulation. it wouldn't matter if you had maitenance; you still needed them that day. nothing was permanent that said ok you're going to get these things with our next release. maybe you are all knowing, but I think the majority did not know about these inclusions in version 4.0 a month ago. you would have spent a lot of money only to find out a month later that it came included for a price that was lower then what you paid.

I still just can't figure out why you cannot see that they have added a lot of stuff and still managed to reduce the price. why is that a bad thing? you seem incredibly pessimistic to me.

no one is saying that the promo price was bad. I really wanted to purchase it then but I couldn't afford it. Iím not disappointed though. because now you can get it at 3000.00(adv) less even without a promo. everyday of the year.

if you don't like the price so what, don't buy it! The majority of us think it is great what they have done.

JDex
04-21-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by gmask
You were required to send I guess one of three things either the manuals, cd's or dongle.

Well I feel like an idiot now... I bought a LW7 manual at Buck-A-Book about a year ago... I could have had a seat of essentials w/ Maintenance and free upgrades w/ that promotion for the cash I had saved up for a seat. ARRRGGGHHH!!!

version
04-21-2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by JDex
Well I feel like an idiot now...

lol, I feel worse, I've got a license for Lightwave but damn if I know where any of it is, and I mean any of it;
the manuals? missing.
CD's? missing
Boxes? missing
dongle? missing

lolololol

MJV
04-21-2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by JDex
Well I feel like an idiot now... I bought a LW7 manual at Buck-A-Book about a year ago... I could have had a seat of essentials w/ Maintenance and free upgrades w/ that promotion for the cash I had saved up for a seat. ARRRGGGHHH!!!

:banghead: Dude, that's exactly what I've been saying! Those of us who didn't take advantage of this deal blew it. There is no way I can tell myself, nor can anyone tell themselves, that I'm better off now than I was before in terms of being able to afford XSI. It is now twice the cost it was just a month ago!

But all is not lost. These kinds of promotions go on almost constantly now with all the 3D software venders. So if it's not available today then you are better off calling and telling them to put you on a notification list for when the next promotion starts (which is never far away). $2000, $4000, or $9000 is too much money to not be a smart consumer. Let the companies who don't bother to do the research or time purchases carefully pay the full MSRP.

gmask
04-21-2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by rock
All these trade-in business - Doesn't Microsoft do this already in the antitrust case? Don't buy from others and we will bundle these with this. Don't use this and we will give you these to replace that at no charge. :)

No that's really not the same thing. If Apple bought LW for example but then made it impossible for it's competitors to port their applications to OSX then that would be anti-trust.

gmask
04-21-2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by MJV
:banghead: Dude, that's exactly what I've been saying! Those of us who didn't take advantage of this deal blew it. There is no way I can tell myself, nor can anyone tell themselves, that I'm better off now than I was before in terms of being able to afford XSI. It is now twice the cost as it was just a month ago!


Well if it makes you feel any better there were similair complaints when Maya lowered it's prices by those who had just paid the higher price. But keep in ming there was a day when these programs cost between $25k-$50k and up. One of my previous employers had bought a Symbolics system $300k and I think he may still have been paying it off after it was obsolete and sitting in a storage room.

It's generally a good idea to make pruchases during or after conventions liek NAB or Siggraph because that is usually when vendors announce new products or give good deals on their products.

JDex
04-21-2004, 09:20 PM
I looked into the promo and what I gathered was you needed to send in the whole contents of the package you purchased... Since I don't have an actual package... I just let it go. If it is true that only a manual is neccesary, or cd, or dongle... then I will get my new academic version... and wait for another promo (at least for a while). Silly, silly SI.

gmask
04-21-2004, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by JDex
I looked into the promo and what I gathered was you needed to send in the whole contents of the package you purchased... Since I don't have an actual package... I just let it go. If it is true that only a manual is neccesary, or cd, or dongle... then I will get my new academic version... and wait for another promo (at least for a while). Silly, silly SI.

Ok here is the latest..

> 1. Proof of competitive product ownership (such as an invoice)
> 2. Signature of the Softimage Customer Trade-Up Letter, which states
> the decommission of said product by the customer
> 3. Return of competitive collateral to us (dongle, CD, manuals).

So what if your install did not require a dongle???

At any rate I have talked to two different resellers and they weren't too clear on what was required. Personally I think it is lame for lack of a better word to try to obligate your new customer to never use their old software again when they will most likely need it for period of time in order to transition from old to new if that's the case.

What next? Maybe Softimage should just try to out right bribe people to stop using Maya.. sounds like desperation to me.. okay now I'm just kidding around ;-)

Oh and another interesting comment I got today (from a XSI reseller) was that many companies choose maya because they know that there is a large talent pool allready in place to hire. Which could also mean that XSI users should be in demand by those brave few production companies that use it instead of Maya.

JDex
04-21-2004, 09:39 PM
That makes more sense... invoice that's the key... k, I feel less stupid now.

gmask
04-21-2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by JDex
That makes more sense... invoice that's the key... k, I feel less stupid now.

yeah otherwise one person could give one friend the manuals, another the CDs and someone else the dongle and have at it. :surprised Yeah and what is Soft gonna do? Sue you because they think you might still be using your old software.

Hello,

Thank you for buying a license for our software. We however have decided to sue you because we think you might be using your old software... even though in reality you have every right because you still own the license that you paid for.

Have a nice day!

The fine folks at Softimage

:love:

version
04-21-2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by MJV
:banghead: Dude, that's exactly what I've been saying! Those of us who didn't take advantage of this deal blew it. There is no way I can tell myself, nor can anyone tell themselves, that I'm better off now than I was before in terms of being able to afford XSI. It is now twice the cost it was just a month ago!


I think what happens is, a promo usually comes just before the next release, or when a shift in price is about to happen; if so, then if you stick to holding out for promos, then you'l probably be 1 step behind those who bought it as required.

yog
04-21-2004, 10:41 PM
It seems to me that some people are trying really hard not to understand this (purposely ?).

There was the OLD STANDARD PRICE, which most people considered was quite a lot.

Then there was the PROMOTIONAL OFFER, which was a one off, short term sort of cross-grade and involved you putting your hand on your heart (possibly with fingers crossed behind your back) and pledge not to use your old software. A really good OFFER.

Now the OFFER if over there is the NEW STANDARD PRICE, whilst not quite as good as the PROMOTIONAL OFFER it is a heck of a lot better than the OLD STANDARD PRICE.

If you missed the promotional offer, boo hoo, too bad, it's gone. There might be another offer along sometime, but realistically I wouldn't expect another one till the impending release of XSI-5.
Then again, if you don't want to wait a year or two you can now buy it at it's new standard price which is a fraction of what it used to be :thumbsup:

zaam
04-21-2004, 10:43 PM
I took advantage of the promo to get Advanced. I'd probably be cying right now if I hadn't, but one thing I have found is that there is almost always another deal coming down if you can wait. Looking back, Soft had a discount deal late last year as well. Some who took advantage of it then may wish they had waited. Best rule of thumb — If you NEED it, get it, if you WANT it, wait for it. Soft is aggressively trying to expand their user base after being an elite-priced product for so long. That likely means more promos, more push toward educational discounts, more seeding of product in general. Don't sweat it. Also, look at it this way — and Essentials buyer for v4 gets a comparable package to an Advanced version buyer for 3.5 during the promo, and both at around $4000.

As for what was required, I was initially a little put off that a company would want me to "decommission" a package that I still may need from time to time. However, they allow a generous 180 days for you to return the competitive package, so you can finish up any projects you have on hand. Plus, it's THEIR promo. If you don't like the terms, don't do it.

Anyway, after so many years of dealing with just about every other package out there, I am freakin' pumped about what XSI is bringing to the table. This architecture has way more headroom than Maya, Max, etc . . ., and I think we are only beginning to see it pull out of the gate.

Fluckrat
04-21-2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by zaam
I am freakin' pumped about what XSI is bringing to the table. This architecture has way more headroom than Maya, Max, etc . . ., and I think we are only beginning to see it pull out of the gate.

Same here. I really couldn't see many ways to improve most of the workflow but with the introduction of construction modes I feel it will improve hugely. I can't explain enough how much I'm itching to get my grubby little hands on this version.

:beer:

shingo
04-22-2004, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Fluckrat
Same here. I really couldn't see many ways to improve most of the workflow but with the introduction of construction modes I feel it will improve hugely. I can't explain enough how much I'm itching to get my grubby little hands on this version.

:beer:

The construction modes are pretty incredible. They do take some getting used to, but th efelxibility they offer is superb.

BTW. There are a swag of new poly modelling tools in there that are going to really excite you. Just wait till you get a look at the edge/poly/point loop selection tools. Bevels have been completely overhauled and the smooth/relax functions are a dream come true.

Heber
04-22-2004, 12:58 AM
http://xsibase.com/news.php?detail=922


whooo subsurface scattering,,,,,about dam time :)

tachy0n
04-22-2004, 03:08 AM
I'm particularly happy about this part....

In addition to significant performance improvements, especially when rendering scenes that contain hair or fur geometry

:beer:

Renderman_XSI
04-22-2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Fluckrat
Same here. I really couldn't see many ways to improve most of the workflow but with the introduction of construction modes I feel it will improve hugely. .

:beer:

It had be nice if i can have more options when im using the Add Edge Tool, typically in AutoCAD you can draw lines parrarel and perpendicular to any component. This is more along the lines of snapping options, but very focus on drawing. If SI added this to the snapping menu, it wont be good idea. Making it an context menu after you intailly make the first point of a edge would be perfect workflow. Depending on the evolution of the Add Edge Tool, in 3.5 after the initail point added, if you move your mouse over away from edge; LMB= N/A . If they can replace the NA with a context snapping menu. This makes sense , because your only focusing on creating edges. Here would be the workflow, press "\" and click on a edge to create a new point, move your mouse away from the edge press the LMB to bring up the menu, select parrarel from the list, now move your over the edge you want to draw the line parrerel to, your mouse icon should change to a parrarel icon..now to finish it draw the point. Thats about 4 mouse click to draw a line parrarel/perpendicular,etc.

Unless, of course in XSI 4.0 the Add Edge Tool has evolution to the point where you can use it to cut mid way into a polygon, while keeping the mesh legal. THAN, the context menu needs to be implemented another way.

In the end, it might be wise to access this menu another way, so it can be applied to when drawing linear nurbs curves and other things. But it would have to be a pop up menu.

Lastly, i think a interactive alignment tools in the viewport is better than having align tools in the MCP. if they add this it would speed up the workflow. It could be use to align anything, from points(nurbs), mesh, nulls,nurbs curves,etc. the align tools in the MCP is too limited in that regards. maya has nice viewport alignment tool.

I think the construction mode is bad ass, cant wait to try it out!! :bounce:

shingo
04-22-2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by tachy0n
I'm particularly happy about this part....



:beer:

You might also find a lot fo reasons to be excited when you see the displacements and rapid motion blur in the new Mental Ray 3.3.

I can honestly say that the motion blur is usebale and productino ready (in large scenes too).

EdHarriss
04-22-2004, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by shingo
I can honestly say that the motion blur is usebale and productino ready (in large scenes too).

I can second that. Not to mention that there are other areas of rendering that have gotten very nice improvements.

Razorb
04-22-2004, 03:53 PM
Well i sure hope they added a turn or flip edge or poly tool, its kinda off the complaining subject about pricing, and tradeups. But it would be nice helps poly modelling quite a bit.

EdHarriss
04-23-2004, 01:24 AM
I can't say what they've done to the modeling, but I can tell you that the Construction modes will really help you with modifying your model after you've rigged it. :) It is amazing.

rock
04-23-2004, 01:36 AM
I keep hearing about this construction mode - can someone tell me what it is that make it amazing? And if Maya has a similar feature?

Thanks.

SheepFactory
04-23-2004, 01:37 AM
rock go to the softimage site , under v4 new features watch the lip synch video , it shows in detail what the construction modes does.

rock
04-23-2004, 01:56 AM
Sheep Factory,

I found the video. Thanks.

SheepFactory
04-23-2004, 02:03 AM
http://www.softimage.com/products/xsi/v4/features/


scroll all the way down and the vid is to the bottom right.

tachy0n
04-23-2004, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by Razorb
Well i sure hope they added a turn or flip edge or poly tool, its kinda off the complaining subject about pricing, and tradeups. But it would be nice helps poly modelling quite a bit.

maybe this is what you need ?

http://217.160.138.15/ohm/mt1.0/model_spinquad.html

Fluckrat
04-23-2004, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
rock go to the softimage site , under v4 new features watch the lip synch video , it shows in detail what the construction modes does.

I still have no idea at all why they named this clip 'Lip Sync' it really has nothing to do with it.... It is a great example of how construction modes will rock though. If anyone hasn't seen it, they should check it out. This will probably be the single biggest change to our usual workflow as far as I can tell.

Nocturn
04-23-2004, 12:03 PM
I think they named it lipsync because it's a part of a larger training video. Nice to see SI making more of their own training material, and at a reasonable price too :)

RuiFeliciano
04-23-2004, 12:06 PM
I'm just surfacing in the XSI side of things but I've been using Lightwave for several years and I'm having a dificult time understanding whether this construction modes thing is a revolutionary thing or just a novelty for xsi users:
In Lightwave I can have a fully rigged character and I can make any modifications I want to the base objects that they will be recursively applied to its endomorphs (blend shapes). If I want I can simply modify a vertex coordinates or I can completely cut a character's head to be more drastic. Nothing of this will have any impact on any animation I might have already done with the character. It's transparent, I do changes to the original base character and these are automatically applied to all endomorphs the character has. Isn't this what is being shown in this XSI video? Is this kind of flexibility not available in the currect version?

EdHarriss
04-23-2004, 01:06 PM
I think one of biggest advantages is that they are in the same workspace. I don't know enough about lightwave to give you a good comparison and I can't say much more about contruction modes than has already been said, (because of my NDA) but I will say that contruction modes are for more than just "making modifications I want to the base objects that they will be recursively applied to its endomorphs."

There is a little more info in this thread. (http://archives.itg.uiuc.edu/softimage/xsi/2004-04/msg00681.htm)

Sorry I can't tell you more.

shingo
04-23-2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by RuiFeliciano
I'm just surfacing in the XSI side of things but I've been using Lightwave for several years and I'm having a dificult time understanding whether this construction modes thing is a revolutionary thing or just a novelty for xsi users:
In Lightwave I can have a fully rigged character and I can make any modifications I want to the base objects that they will be recursively applied to its endomorphs (blend shapes). If I want I can simply modify a vertex coordinates or I can completely cut a character's head to be more drastic. Nothing of this will have any impact on any animation I might have already done with the character. It's transparent, I do changes to the original base character and these are automatically applied to all endomorphs the character has. Isn't this what is being shown in this XSI video? Is this kind of flexibility not available in the currect version?

I woudn't even begin to compre Lightwave's hack to the contrustion modes implemented by XSI 4.0. I mean, changing shapes of the original character is one thing, but start messing with topology and LW's Endomorphs and such fall apart. The whole HUB thing is an absolute joke and is some weird dinosaur that exists becasue the programmers at Newtek refuse to merge Modeller and Layout.

Believe me, I would rahter have a root cnal than have to animate in LW.

Nocturn
04-23-2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by shingo
I mean, changing shapes of the original character is one thing, but start messing with topology and LW's Endomorphs and such fall apart.

Raises a good question how this will work in XSI. The short video only shows changing the position of existing points. I wonder how it works when you change the topology. Guess we'll found out more....in a month :cry:

RuiFeliciano
04-23-2004, 02:54 PM
Ed,

I understand your limitations, I'm just trying to understand what's it all about because what they explain in the video is easily done on LW for quite some time (without having to constantly switch modes) so given the little I know about XSi there absolutely has to be more then what has been shown/I understood.

RuiFeliciano
04-23-2004, 02:57 PM
shingo,

100% agree with your views on the Hub and animating in LW. That's why I asked. Given that new features videos should highligth powerful new features and given that what has been shown is just a change in vertex positions while keeping enveloping intact (which is such a trivial task to do in LW) I wanted to make sure that there HAS to be more to it than what has been shown :)

acidboy
04-23-2004, 03:12 PM
RuiFeliciano,

Just to clear things up a bit for ya, being able to tweak and change the topology of a enveloped character (and being able to freeze those changes) has been a feature in xsi for a long time.

with Ver4, managing your history stack is just alot easier and more flexible beyond just being able to tweak with enveloping, such as retaining all your shape animation etc.

But as Ed and a few other testers have said, not all it's features can be reveiled yet.

Nemoid
04-23-2004, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by shingo
I woudn't even begin to compre Lightwave's hack to the contrustion modes implemented by XSI 4.0. I mean, changing shapes of the original character is one thing, but start messing with topology and LW's Endomorphs and such fall apart. The whole HUB thing is an absolute joke and is some weird dinosaur that exists becasue the programmers at Newtek refuse to merge Modeller and Layout.

Believe me, I would rahter have a root cnal than have to animate in LW.

hehe this is true unfortunately until Nt doesn't merge Layout and Modeler, and make the app more modern i think that clever things like the current endomorph process will be surely usable but their potential stunning power will remain suffocated.
As a currently Lw user, I think it's like that for many things in Lw for now. Lw is a good program, but suffers from being old and being never rewritten just like happened for Softimage/XSI.
this being said, can't wait to try both XSI 4.0 and Maya 6.0 and see by myself what"clicks" with me. from the interface seems XSI is better for me cause it appears more similar to Lw. a thing i'd like to know is that there's a complete feature list of the tools of the app in great detail though.
i have some docs of XSI 3.0 are the tools evolved so much in 4.0?

EdHarriss
04-23-2004, 04:25 PM
i have some docs of XSI 3.0 are the tools evolved so much in 4.0?

The leap from 3.5 to 4.0 is huge. Going from 3.0 to 4.0 will be even more impressive. There is no "4.0 full feature list" out yet, but there will be soon.

fez
04-23-2004, 05:43 PM
I have been looking over the fence from the Lightwave side for a while, for instance loosely following the forums at xsibase.com. Seems from browsing the boards that there have been some stability issues since XSI 1.0. I especially took note when some of the complaints came from one of the most outspoken old-schoolers in the Softimage community. He and quite a few others seemed to take issue with Avid seeming to give fancy features a priority over stability. Are these stability issues addressed in XSI 4?

3dtutorial
04-23-2004, 06:00 PM
Hi Fez,

He and quite a few others seemed to take issue with Avid seeming to give fancy features a priority over stability

Well, XSI has been stable for quite some time, since at least v2.5

Earlier versions were dodgy in terms of stability but certainly since v3 -- no problems.

The only time these days when XSI becomes "unstable" is when the end user does take care to use recommended hardware such as certified video cards or drivers.

erm...or tries to do things that the software was simply not designed to do. Most times if the software goes crazy it's down to something the end user is doing.

That said, I find XSI these days to be very stable.

So I think you may have been given some bad advice.

Cheers,

Joe

topmegacool
04-23-2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by fez
I have been looking over the fence from the Lightwave side for a while, for instance loosely following the forums at xsibase.com. Seems from browsing the boards that there have been some stability issues since XSI 1.0. I especially took note when some of the complaints came from one of the most outspoken old-schoolers in the Softimage community. He and quite a few others seemed to take issue with Avid seeming to give fancy features a priority over stability. Are these stability issues addressed in XSI 4?


I agree that xsi isn't very stable. I use XSI 3.5.1 in professionnal conditions on a big project for more than one year.

I use it 9 hours a day on a very stable HP workstation, with 2Gb of ram, Quadro4, good driver, WinXP wich is itself very stable (no csystem crash in one year of intense use) and well I would put XSI at the 3dsMax level stability. It's very unpredictable, sometime you can make complex things and not crash and 5 mn later you can crash with something simple, like importing a small model in the scene and make a cancel in a render region.

I use the XSI 4 betta wich answere the lack of a few things.. some optimisations has also been done, but i think there's still some work to do for the softimage team dev... :-)

TMC

fez
04-23-2004, 07:31 PM
"So I think you may have been given some bad advice"

Nope. Merely paying attention to the grumblings of much respected xsibase member Speye 21. I hope he doesn't mind me posting a couple of the quotes that caught my eye:


"I want to see XSI do really well as I like the product, but actions of late have me really concerned and frustrated as there hasn't been any real significant progress in core areas for some time. What rumors are coming down the pipe aren't very encouraging to relax those concerns."

"A functioning and stable rendertree and animation mixer will make me 10,200% more productive and happier than any amount of hair and compositing systems."

Again, though I am a total lurker and too busy to read XSI forums religiously, I have noticed Speye is not alone in his criticism.

3dtutorial
04-23-2004, 08:04 PM
Again, though I am a total lurker and too busy to read XSI forums religiously, I have noticed Speye is not alone in his criticism

Big deal.

Hey people say all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons.

That may well be their experience with the software, but it's not mine.

I've been using the software everyday in production too and I have none of these problems.

So what can I tell you.

I suppose it comes down to who you want to believe.

Tell you what, trust no one and judge for yourself :)

Cheers,

Joe

lukx
04-23-2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by 3dtutorial

Tell you what, trust no one and judge for yourself :)



AMEN

shingo
04-23-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by acidboy
RuiFeliciano,

Just to clear things up a bit for ya, being able to tweak and change the topology of a enveloped character (and being able to freeze those changes) has been a feature in xsi for a long time.

with Ver4, managing your history stack is just alot easier and more flexible beyond just being able to tweak with enveloping, such as retaining all your shape animation etc.

But as Ed and a few other testers have said, not all it's features can be reveiled yet.

That's an undertsatement. The new features guide is close to 400 pages long.

Nemoid
04-23-2004, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by shingo
That's an undertsatement. The new features guide is close to 400 pages long.

great! seems to blown Maya away??!!
at least this seems to be the great XSI goal for 4.0 and next releases...

jerome_123
04-23-2004, 09:24 PM
Seems from browsing the boards that there have been some stability issues since XSI 1.0.

I think that basing you "stability" opinion on 1 person's is not always correct, for any software.

Ex: At some point, XSI had a bug (any software have bugs, even NASA's). This bug corrupted a scene. Unluckily, for that point on, doing all kind of things with that scene can cause random crashes. So the person will then say that XSI in unstable, because it always crashes, and crashed 200 times with his scene. But all that is because of 1 bug. But this scenario could happen with Maya, 3DS or LW, as no soft is bugless... And you will have other people who never hit such bugs, that will say that they never crashed in weeks.

All I can say, as an XSI dev, is that thousand of bugs get fixed at each release, including bugs that were there since a long time. V4 will include many good fixes too. New features may introduce new bugs, however in general things tend to be more and more stable, from release to release.

Jerome.

fez
04-23-2004, 10:21 PM
Hey Joe. Peace:).

"Big deal."

Obviously stability is a "Big deal" to some or there would not be so many posts on the subject. Do a search yourself. You won't have to look far if you include TMC's perspective a few posts above.

"I suppose it comes down to who you want to believe."
"Tell you what, trust no one and judge for yourself"

Who are you...yoda? Or did you miss your calling writing fortune cookies? :) Seriously, I am sure you'll agree that how data is interpreted often depends on who is doing the interpreting. Lucky for me I trust myself to look out for my own personal and professional interests. It does not register with me how research detracts from any such investment decision. I asked the question about perceived instability in XSI because I was researching the opinions of other professionals. So what's the "Big Deal"?


You shared your opinion that XSI is stable. Another fellow shared his feeling that it is not. No one post or poll is going to sway my decision either way. It will most likely take a month or two behind a XSI 4.0 EXP before I make my decision. Assuming no NDAs get in the way, I welcome more opinions.

shingo
04-23-2004, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by fez
Hey Joe. Peace:).

"Big deal."

Obviously stability is a "Big deal" to some or there would not be so many posts on the subject. Do a search yourself. You won't have to look far if you include TMC's perspective a few posts above.

"I suppose it comes down to who you want to believe."
"Tell you what, trust no one and judge for yourself"

Who are you...yoda? Or did you miss your calling writing fortune cookies? :) Seriously, I am sure you'll agree that how data is interpreted often depends on who is doing the interpreting. Lucky for me I trust myself to look out for my own personal and professional interests. It does not register with me how research detracts from any such investment decision. I asked the question about perceived instability in XSI because I was researching the opinions of other professionals. So what's the "Big Deal"?


You shared your opinion that XSI is stable. Another fellow shared his feeling that it is not. No one post or poll is going to sway my decision either way. It will most likely take a month or two behind a XSI 4.0 EXP before I make my decision. Assuming no NDAs get in the way, I welcome more opinions.

Opinions regarding what? Stability? From what I can see, v 4.0 is more stable than 3.5.1.

SheepFactory
04-24-2004, 03:18 AM
i have been using 3.5.1 on a boxx system for some time now and it never crashed on me so far.

lard
04-24-2004, 06:26 AM
ditto.

3.5.1 is extremely stable.

Heber
04-24-2004, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
i have been using 3.5.1 on a boxx system for some time now and it never crashed on me so far.


seriously? almost everyone i speak to, most common xsi crash is when you use point maniapulator and then merge 2 pts,(M+ ALT) boom xsi gone ...i sure hope they fixed that, it causes xsi to crash like 50% of the time

mankor
04-24-2004, 06:54 AM
eriously? almost everyone i speak to, most common xsi crash is when you use point maniapulator and then merge 2 pts,(M+ ALT) boom xsi gone ...i sure hope they fixed that, it causes xsi to crash like 50% of the time
first off thank you for pointing that little feature out.. that one slipped by me..i just tried to crash xsi but couldn,t..Maybe becuase i use windows 2k pro..might be an xp bug or sumthin..

Renderman_XSI
04-24-2004, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by rayfusion
seriously? almost everyone i speak to, most common xsi crash is when you use point maniapulator and then merge 2 pts,(M+ ALT) boom xsi gone ...i sure hope they fixed that, it causes xsi to crash like 50% of the time

Yup this has happen to me also, glad im not the only one. :shrug: Also doing too many boolean operation on the same object, will crash XSI, thats with the operator stack frozen ;)

That isnt really a big issue, the real issue is sometimes when you draw a render region XSI hangs, the CPUS usage goes up to 50 % and it hangs, than it stops responding altogether. I know others have encountered this problems also. BTW this happen on simple scene, not complex at all.

but for the most part it is stable,more so than 3dsmax(from my experience).

:D

JDex
04-24-2004, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by Renderman_XSI
Also doing too many boolean operation on the same object, will crash XSI, thats with the operator stack frozen ;)

Workaround... export the object you just boolean-ed as an obj... then bring it back in... now you can keep on cutting... sucks, with 10sec of work you can continue w/ your modelling.

The only one I have run into alot lately is is you have a vol_effects w/ scattering lights and all of your lights are excluding lights w/ associated models and then create an object and forget to associate it w/ any lights... then render, you will get stuck in a render error loop that will force you to restart XSI...

I have not had a chance to diagnose it, and it seems to happen sporradically.

tachy0n
04-24-2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Renderman_XSI

That isnt really a big issue, the real issue is sometimes when you draw a render region XSI hangs, the CPUS usage goes up to 50 % and it hangs, than it stops responding altogether. I know others have encountered this problems also. BTW this happen on simple scene, not complex at all.


I think there's a pattern here, before when i was on XP, i also started getting the render region problem, but after switching back to 2000 a few weeks back, it's working perfectly fine. so maybe XP is the one to blame..? Also i remember one friend of mine fixed a similar problem by excluding all his project/texture folders from his antivirus scanning.

Never got the move point bug though.

Fluckrat
04-24-2004, 07:34 AM
I gotta say, I'm happy as Larry with the stability since v2.0.3.

Yeah it crashes occasionally, but no more than would be expected as far as I'm concerned.

BOXX Workstation, Win2k, NVidia Quadro DCC

Ezz
04-24-2004, 08:55 AM
Im very happy with the stability in XSI 3.5. I have never had any bad experience with the renderregion (im running win2000) what so ever.
I have noticed instability when working in Immediated Mode thats all.

Erik

Jbo123
04-24-2004, 11:23 PM
I'm on XP and I used to get the Render Region hang in 3.5 all the time, but I haven't had it in months, I also have my color depth at 16 bit (to fix the ATI Radeon bug) so maybe that's what fixed it.

bmwolf
04-25-2004, 01:04 AM
does xsi 3.5 have fluids? the reason i ask is because of what this:

http://www.softimage.com/home/press/pressreleases/040419_xsi_version4.htm

says under the effects heading.

"All simulation effects within SOFTIMAGE|XSI v.4.0 share the same integrated forces and dynamics environment, so hair and fur, dynamic constraints, particles, FLUIDS, cloth, and new Rigid & Soft Body Dynamics all work together seamlessly and are easily created and controlled."

Am i just reading into this too much? I've been wanting to switch for awhile and i have got sucked into all of the hype with this new release like everyone else. I am dieing for the new features list.

SheepFactory
04-25-2004, 01:40 AM
i dont think thats fluids like maya fluids or they would have mentioned it in its own section.

probably just blobby particles.

bmwolf
04-25-2004, 01:45 AM
yeah, that's what i figured. thought i'd ask anyway.

brunner
04-25-2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by shingo
That's an undertsatement. The new features guide is close to 400 pages long. Originally posted by Nemoid
great! seems to blown Maya away??!!
The features guide from Maya 6 is 404 pages long, so no, it doesn't blow maya away:cool:

Just kidding ;)

Speaking of construction modes, how do they perform, compared to maya's 'history'?

tachy0n
04-25-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by brunner
The features guide from Maya 6 is 404 pages long, so no, it doesn't blow maya away:cool:

Just kidding ;)

Speaking of construction modes, how do they perform, compared to maya's 'history'?

XSI has already had a similar 'history' since long, and it performs very well. AFAIK they'v enhanced this even more in 4 with the construction modes.

KidderD
04-25-2004, 04:05 PM
-Nothing we havent seen before, just in Softimage XSI.

Erik-


What does that have to do with it, we should only mention new maya features, if and only if, xsi doesn't have them? So, what then only fluids and paint effects and hair improvements.

I would have replied to your other thread, but its been closed, but it should be deleted.

shingo
04-25-2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by KidderD
-Nothing we havent seen before, just in Softimage XSI.

Erik-


What does that have to do with it, we should only mention new maya features, if and only if, xsi doesn't have them? So, what then only fluids and paint effects and hair improvements.

I would have replied to your other thread, but its been closed, but it should be deleted.

The construction modes are essentially there to eliminate the issue fo conflicts with layerred deformations and shape animation. Things like folds and pnching in areas around the mouth of characters is eliminated by implementing this feature. Prior to v4.0, there were few ways to prevent this happening.

Personalyl I ghave found that the Construction History gives a lot more flxinbility and poser tot he way deformations are applied. If for example now, you want to apply a cloth property to an objectand fiond you don't have enough subdivisions in your geometry, it's easier to make these changes and have the toplogy be updated in the sim. If say you apply the cloth property while in Modelling mode, you can easily move it to the another contruction mode and not be worried about the results freaking out. Also, if you have shape animation applied to an object and you want ot change the topology, the results are much more predictable now.

There is more to this puppy than meets the eye.

Ezz
04-25-2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by KidderD
-Nothing we havent seen before, just in Softimage XSI.

Erik-


What does that have to do with it, we should only mention new maya features, if and only if, xsi doesn't have them? So, what then only fluids and paint effects and hair improvements.

I would have replied to your other thread, but its been closed, but it should be deleted.

You`re right it should have been deleted.
Well I use both software and I guess Iīm disapointed about Alias` approach these days looking more and more like the way Discreet doing things. But Im not gonna start any discusion about that.

On the other hand I`m very pleased to see that Softimage is developing the non-linear workflow that makes XSI a joy to work with. With the new construction mode it looks to be even more versitile.

Erik

SheepFactory
04-25-2004, 08:28 PM
i wonder if the student version also has 8 node satellite rendering. It would be great if I can put the network to use.

bmwolf
04-26-2004, 02:47 AM
I was under the impression that it had everything the full advanced version does. The only exception is that it i cannot be used for commercial work. hope this is true!

vmpre
04-26-2004, 03:59 AM
Speaking of construction modes, how do they perform, compared to maya's 'history'?

Construction Modes are not the same thing as Construction History. I am not a Maya user so I dont know how Maya does it.

Think of Construction Modes as a Structured Construction History that takes animation into account. Construction Modes work with Construction History, but they are not the same thing.

So what does that mean? It means that the user can dictate what operations are stored within each mode. Then XSI can evaluate the Construction History (that was made with the structured Construction Mode) to apply a layered system of operations for animation. Sorry if that doesnt make sense.

Check out the video on the softimage website. The video shows how you can work in the different Construction Modes and how it applies to Construction History and animation.

HTH
Vmpre

kfc
04-26-2004, 06:17 AM
First off... i'm not here to bash XSi.
I like it but I haven't really use it for any serious work yet. From what I've seen in the construction mode of new xsi features. It seems to be putting together a bunch of history node features and make it in to 1 much more reliable feature.
Of course it can be done in maya, but it's requires taking a little more steps on getting this done this way. But on another hand, I still prefer the old way of using maya's construction history. everything still works the same like the new construction mode in xsi4. Can't really judge this new features yet because we really needs to get our hands on it b4 we can say anything about it's production effectiveness.
however, most of us here in my studio has got used to the method of using blendshape targets pre-modeled instead of working on the tweaking while in construction model to make all of the blendshapes. from the video demo, it seems that every deformation of a target has keyed in to model with construction mode. but what if i want to transfer all of this targets in to another applications? I'm sure there must be a way to do it. But like someone here has mentioned, xsi is just forcing the user to follow certain workflow (however i do agrees that the workflow in xsi is great).
Still... even the price is lowered on xsi 4. it still doesn't helps to convince my employer to make a switch or purchase a few seats to aid our current pipeline. anyway, I do hope both xsi and maya can be merge in to 1 app. haha... i knew it's won't happen.
the competition is getting more and more exciting.

acidboy
04-26-2004, 07:16 AM
kfc,

How can a similar thing as xsi's 'construction mode' be done in maya?
As you to my knowledge you don't have a nonlinear workflow where you can easily tweak\change topology on an enveloped character....unless you keep all those tweaks in it's history.

Maya6 does have a button to freeze non enveloped history when working with a enveloped character. But from all I've seen you can't specify what history, it just freezes all non enveloped history.

I'm not sure what you are saying with xsi's possible limitation with blend shapes as you can work with them a number of ways - modelling them directly on the original character or model seperate blendshape models. Both are great for different situations and allow more flexibility.

"it seems that every deformation of a target has keyed in"
U mean how in the demo when keys where set for the blend shapes? If so you dont have to do that at all, just made it quicker to show it working in the demo.

Also you can easily drag and drop existing history operators between the different contruction categories.

All in all, personally I don't find xsi forces you to work a certain way, as it's very forgiving and alllows you to go back and change anything at anytime.

kfc
04-26-2004, 08:34 AM
oh well... it's pretty hard to say for now. All of the info that i can see now is only from the video demo in SI website.
well... the construction mode can be done in maya with keeping in mind of the workflow, maya's does has got a non-linear workflow (it just has got a slightly different workflow). It's different from the construction mode in xsi. and it requires a little more connections between nodes.
I didn't say it's exactly the same like construction mode in xsi tho. It's just performing the same "backward" compatibility of going back to the previous state by keeping each blendshapes in scene.

"modelling them directly on the original character or model seperate blendshape models. Both are great for different situations and allow more flexibility."

I'm agree to this. I'm just much more comfortable with the old way. haha...

"U mean how in the demo when keys where set for the blend shapes? If so you dont have to do that at all, just made it quicker to show it working in the demo."

oh well... that gave me an impression that the blendshapes has to modeled during the setup.

"All in all, personally I don't find xsi forces you to work a certain way, as it's very forgiving and alllows you to go back and change anything at anytime."

maybe u are right. But i still have issue with the material editors tho. I know compare to maya's hypershade it's still much cleaner. But in maya6, there's a new bin function to group our shaders for better organisation. I do hope xsi has similar editor tho.

kamil_w
04-26-2004, 10:16 AM
Well,

there is some low level component - new api class in maya 6.0 - that can provide something like construction modes automatically without any special modes.

StephanD
04-26-2004, 11:02 AM
What's Maya?

:buttrock:


(Kiddin')

acidboy
04-26-2004, 11:54 AM
kfc

"maybe u are right. But i still have issue with the material editors tho. I know compare to maya's hypershade it's still much cleaner. But in maya6, there's a new bin function to group our shaders for better organisation. I do hope xsi has similar editor tho."

Concerning shader management\bins and material editors. I'm not sure how much info Soft wants past around yet. BUT you won't be disappointed in those areas in xsi 4 ;)

And no, Im not a beta tester, just get the juicy bits talking on the official Soft dissusion list.

dmonk
04-27-2004, 12:18 PM
Can I get XSI foundation without a maintenence license and just get it later?

SheepFactory
04-27-2004, 03:19 PM
yes you can dmonk

zaam
04-27-2004, 07:53 PM
dmonk,

You can, but I believe that the date of maintnance is retroacted to the date of purchase. For example, if you buy XSI today and purchase maintenance in 6 months, it would still expire in a year from now. Still, it gives you some flexibility if you don't have all the cahs at once.

quid
04-28-2004, 07:31 AM
Does anyone know if this version will support 64 bit cpu's? I know mentalray has for sometime already, but it would be great for XSI support it as well.

implicit
04-28-2004, 11:14 PM
what i'm missing from softimage is some development in the dynamics/fx area. xsi has still no real good competitive & fast particles, effects like fire/ smoke in hypervoxel style or such, water sim like maya and it's many other sim features.

i'd like to see more companies using xsi for fx work. but at the moment it's more used for character animation.

dmonk
04-29-2004, 02:15 AM
sorry double post.

dmonk
04-29-2004, 02:15 AM
Thanks Zaam and Sheep Factory. That's what I needed to know. I think the maintence license is valuable to have but I gouldn't swing the extra $700 or $800 and still buy my new computer.

wmendez
04-29-2004, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by quid
Does anyone know if this version will support 64 bit cpu's? I know mentalray has for sometime already, but it would be great for XSI support it as well.

Not yet.

EdHarriss
04-30-2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
i wonder if the student version also has 8 node satellite rendering. It would be great if I can put the network to use.

From what I have seen the only difference between the Pro version and the Academic version is the small "Softimage Education Logo" on the bottom of the startup screen.

Renderman_XSI
05-05-2004, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by tachy0n
I think there's a pattern here, before when i was on XP, i also started getting the render region problem, but after switching back to 2000 a few weeks back, it's working perfectly fine. so maybe XP is the one to blame..? Also i remember one friend of mine fixed a similar problem by excluding all his project/texture folders from his antivirus scanning.

Never got the move point bug though.

Not sure if its XP related or not, but this hanging issue isn't a issue in V 4.0. I understand that a QFE was issue for this as will for older versions of XSI.

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