C4D and NURBS modelling

[Grey]

Interesting note:

I'm wondering how well the NURBS tools will work with Dynamics... (I don't have it to play with).

For manually creating an animation of say, a body moving underneath a sheet or blanket, the nurbs tools, with their bezier curves would make this a much easier operation...

[LucentDreams]

Idid back in XLl 5, but I started getting into box modeling in Nendo and Mirai so of course when XL 6 came out, Polygons were all I used, and pretty much still are, I use nrbs a bit, but unfortunately foing mostly character stuff I stick with Cubes and modeling tools

[Grey]

Knowing what I do about NURBS in relation to SubDivisions, I think that SubDivisions are far superior to NURBS for the purpose of Organic Figures.

However, when you're talking about a piece of fabric... I'm not so sure...

[ThirdEye]

in my opinion the only problem about C4D subdee is the limit for polys to have 3 or 4 sides. I'm praying for XL8 to have n-sides polys. And yes, it comes clear that we can't have edge modeling now, only points or faces modeling.

[Grey]

that limitation doesn't bother me at all... :D

Actually, I'd rather have it than not as it requires me to pay attention to polygons.

[LucentDreams]

yes, the one problem with N-gons is that they just like tris are somewhat unpredictable for subdivision, and tis makes then unwanted, though N-gons are great forlow poly, when subdivided they are all subdivided into quads (as are tris) anyways so the best modeelers try to keep them all quads in the first place, but yes there is always a handy ability in being able to make 5 sided polies to avoid tris which are still worse.

Another advantage of C4D's architecture compared to winged edge systems are the fact that in C4D's you can have holes, winged edge is also known as solid modeling as you cannot have a whole, all models must have a solidity to them, wich is what makes things so neat in XL.

[ThirdEye]

I agree with you but there's always a problem in XL modeling: when you use knife tool you dramatically increase the number of triangles and polys in general. Then you have to delete polys, bridge, untriangulate etc... In 3ds Max 5 (or Max 4 + meshtools) or in XSI for example, they have the "connect" tool that permits to divide polys without affecting the sorrounding mesh. It comes clear that it is possible because these programs don't have limitations about n-gons. The modeling process becomes very very fast and the number of polys remains very low. XL has a bit strange and different approach to subdees. I look at Mirai as the most powerful subdee modeling of the bunch, it has no limitations for sides and you can obviously work on edges and not only on polys or points. Am I wrong?

[Grey]

use inner extrude instead of knife.

there's a part of the Meissie tutorial that teaches that trick.

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
I agree with you but there's always a problem in XL modeling: when you use knife tool you dramatically increase the number of triangles and polys in general. Then you have to delete polys, bridge, untriangulate etc... In 3ds Max 5 (or Max 4 + meshtools) or in XSI for example, they have the "connect" tool that permits to divide polys without affecting the sorrounding mesh. It comes clear that it is possible because these programs don't have limitations about n-gons. The modeling process becomes very very fast and the number of polys remains very low. XL has a bit strange and different approach to subdees. I look at Mirai as the most powerful subdee modeling of the bunch, it has no limitations for sides and you can obviously work on edges and not only on polys or points. Am I wrong?

Don't know about max 5, but in XSI and NENDO/Mirai turning a foursided poly into a five side poly does affect the subdivision. though the low poly will look the exact same (if the extra point is on two staright edges) it looks the same low poly, but will have to subdivide that which can creat issues, you can subdivide them no problem, of course you can subdivide tri's as well, the issues is control and predicatblility. When you are modeling ina subd methods, you want to know exactly how it is going to smooth, one problem with a lot of systems allowing you to see the low res and high res at the same time is that you start to lose your understanding of how the tools really work. not saying its bad to do just make sure you realy know how they work though, I mean in reality a good modeler shouldn't need weighted subdivision, as you can do that simply in how you model it, but weighting makes it faster and simpler, but again slightly less predictable.

Just think in this method, Quads are best for anything and everything. They are predictable. Yes ngons work, but when you subdivide a five sided poly you get five quads., how it makes those five quads insn't always consistent as opposed to a quad which makes four quads, which guarantees that you can predict where each quad will be and how it is shaped, tris only create three quads which means at least one will be severly distorted and tends to start making bumps and artifacts.

the only difference in Maxon's system really is that it isn't solid which has a lot of advantages to balance the disavantages. Buit trust me if you were using mirai you would stil want quads as much as possible.

[fxgogo]

As I also use Animation Master, I like using patches aswell as Subdiv modeling. I don't think it would be that hard to add patch modeling to the C4D toolset ( I am no programmer, so I might be talking crap here). I would like to see that added, especially as C4D has a strong spline toolset.

It seems to me that a few simple additions to the modeling side would boost C4D's modeling strength by a exponential amount.

[Grey]

or at least give us 3DM OpenNurbs or DXF Spline Import :D

[ThirdEye]

what kind of subdee algorithm does C4D use? Catmull? Doo? I noticed 3ds Max subdivides polys in a very different way and it has some vertex control also on the cage, not only on polys. Lightwave's Metanurbs are almost identical to Hypernurbs and it seems XSI subdees are similar to LW's too. I don't know anything about Maya subdees, except for their resolution-independence, and yes... They're the true Pixar subdees.

[LucentDreams]

Trust me guys Maxon is well aware of these types opf concerns and is doing what they can , but repeating yourselves in every third or fouth thread is a little much, do you guys make sure you als send these directly to maxon? Here is the link:

Maxon suport Request page (http://www.maxon.net/pages/support/suggestion_e.html)

[LucentDreams]

what type of vertex control? by weighting, Hard Edges, orActual Handles?

as for XL, I believe it is Catmull clark but I will get back to you in a bit to confirm that.

[ThirdEye]

The cage itself in Max has some points that you can pull to modify the aspect of the whole mesh (it reminds me the b-spline of XL, with those nodes... you know...). Thank you for answering to my question about Catmull subdee.

[LucentDreams]

like a b-spline or besier spline, anything using Catmull will resemble a 3D version of Bsplines.

[ThirdEye]

I agree, I was only underlining (as you requested in your previuos post) the possibility in 3ds max to control the nurMs cage with these sort of 3D nodes. :thumbsup:

[ThirdEye]

http://www.3dluvr.com/ic-art/html/images/sds_modelling.avi

here you'll see how Max works with subdee and n-gons, I think it's very useful too look at this video, very very instructive..

[Grey]

What XL calls a B-Spline is actually a Bezier Curve.

What it calls Bezier NURBS is actuallly a standard NURBS patch.

[LucentDreams]

B spline is a certain type of spline, using a mean between each point creating smooth curves, bezier spline is a 3D besier line. (meaning it has handels that control curve and interpolation) Patches are a totally seperate matter.

Party due to harsh encoding, Iam not really understanding the great video you p[osted (great odeling for max) no where did I see him control the mesh any different could you point out a specific time area that I should pay attention too to se the SDS part in action. If and when I talk to the responsible people, I need to save them as much time as possible.

[ThirdEye]

you're right kai, i'll specify the right time you have to look to:

0.27: look at the automatic subdivision of the mesh, Irfan selects a bunch of edges and connects them without modifying the sorrounding mesh (i don't know how to do it in XL) :shrug: and during the video he will use this command several times..

0.42: look at how he clears 4 triangles in just a click to make 'em become a quad, in Max you can make the same thing also to obtain any kind of poly (5-6-7...n-gon)

2:22: how to modify a bunch of polys using soft curves, really really useful, you can modify the mesh pulling a simple handle

These three things would be also useful in my opinion in XL. Thank you for your patience
:thumbsup:

[LucentDreams]

Hmmm I see, I misunderstood a little, I thought I was to e loookng for specific ways of controlling the Subd, not modifying the mesh, Number one is a result of ngons as to why it doesn't affect the surrounding mesh, but it crated a lot of ngons mainly five sided which aren't too bad, but you would still prefer quads, you can do the same thing in XL using cutter but will end up with tri's somewhere that you have to optimise, inthe second one, they have a great untriangulate algorithm like mirai, very cool, I wish XL's was this good, but its still easy to change that into a quad. The last one though is using a sort of falloff curve when pulling out points edges or polys, this is what we do in our magnet tool. we can setit to varios falloffs as well.

[AdamT]

It would be great to have n-sided polys in Cinema. But the reason is not that you want to use them in a smoothed mesh, but that you want to be able to form them while you are building and optimizing your control mesh. It's just a pain in butt when Cinema automatically triangulates surrounding faces whenever you create a five-sided face! If you try to follow almost any subd tutorial designed for another application you will soon see the value of n-sided polys. I'd be more than happy if Cinema did it like LW--that is, you can have n-sided polys in a polygonal object, but they must be converted to quads or tris before smoothing.

[LucentDreams]

don't get me wrong guys, coming from nendo and mirai in my backgrounsd I greatly miss these abilities, but I am saying it isn't hard to make do, and there are some great thigns about modling in a non solid method you just don't get in Wiged edge systems. I guess I am just used to optimising my model real quick and planning as carefully as possible ahead so that I can avoid asmany as possible.

[Stephan]

3ds max ngons are just a fake... they just hide the edges... they're not real n-sided polygons...

[LucentDreams]

well that explains it. So are they basically tris that have hidden edges

[ThirdEye]

well I think 3DS Max approach to poly is the best one: you have also edge modeling, not only point or face modeling. If the n-gons are faked it means that you can have holes and you'll have no problems with them when applying a nurMs cage. Frankly I don't think using 5-6-7.. gons is so important (everyone can tell you that the best polys are quads to obtain a clean mesh), the only thing I'm interested to is being able to subdivide polys without affecting the sorrounding mesh and getting tris and many other polys that complicate the mesh aspect!

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