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View Full Version : Goth Girl (low Poly Model), Dom (3D)


dominicqwek
03-25-2004, 06:32 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/galleryimages/2209/gothgirl_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/galleryimages/2209/gothgirl.jpg)

3dsmax6, photoshop. 2592tris and 1 2048x2048 texture map. initially targeted at the unreal universe. All C&Cs welcomed.



http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_pose1.jpg

http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_pose2.jpg

http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_pose3.jpg


hi-res images here:
http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_pose1_.jpg
http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_pose2_.jpg
http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_pose3_.jpg

dominicqwek
03-25-2004, 06:33 PM
Here are the profiles

http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_profile.jpg

http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_tex.jpg

victor_laccery5
03-25-2004, 06:37 PM
Good low poly modeling.
Very good textures.
Perhaps - if you can - show us some animations

PsychoSilence
03-25-2004, 06:53 PM
great texturing and the model looks very UT stylish :)

would you post the texmap ?

would like to see it integrated in an ego shooter :D

atom_up
03-25-2004, 06:53 PM
Great Game art. Simply incredible. Front Page material without a question. Textures are insane. Keep it up!

Shaykai
03-25-2004, 07:25 PM
Frontpage for sure :) Great job, wire?

Shaykai

Xaint
03-25-2004, 07:26 PM
Put down the lensflare man, it ruins the whole image! (Default lensflares are really cheap)
Otherwise great work, congrats!

slime
03-25-2004, 08:04 PM
Excelent work, fantastic design! but please, loose the lensflare :D

Sinister
03-25-2004, 08:05 PM
looks great! reminds me of pink!

dominicqwek
03-26-2004, 04:02 AM
victor- dont really plan on doing animation as of now.

Psycho-will post tex map later. ;)

atom up- tks m8.

Shakyai-wires will be up later. tks.

Xaint- LOL. ok ok i'll remove the lensflare.:surprised

slime- tht makes 2.

sinister-really? lol. cant seem to see the resemblance though. :)

Dreamy Kid
03-26-2004, 04:50 AM
looks cool man.....i like the horns :).

Emmortal1
03-26-2004, 04:59 AM
Cool character, but I don't know what game would ever put a 2048 map on a character heh. It would have been more impressive if it was a 1024 considering that you could have used 4 1024 maps instead of 1 2048 and it probably would have been even better. But cool nonetheless.

ccc5
03-26-2004, 03:24 PM
Good staff, the robot regarding the head to big. The rest is really good.

peanut
03-26-2004, 04:06 PM
Dom, due all respect your work looks totally insane. I really love the textures over your character, its one of the first time i trully admire a low polymodel.

Jako
03-26-2004, 04:30 PM
wow, great. especially the textures! :thumbsup:

peanut
03-26-2004, 04:48 PM
I dont know why this aint plugged, this is frontpage material 115% forsure.

cgg
03-26-2004, 06:34 PM
wow | FRONT PAGE :wip:
well dom its another great pic of art you have made :buttrock:
amazing texture work m8 :applause:
[BTW can ya plz post some pics of ur Cinematic Game Icons cuz most of the pics wont show :cry: ]

BLee
03-26-2004, 07:58 PM
What cam i say more about this.......it's awesome.

Caininsin
03-26-2004, 07:58 PM
I like the design of the armour, as non functional as it may be it still looks good:thumbsup:

ThirdEye
03-26-2004, 08:57 PM
It screamed front page, congratulations :)

[plugged]

3bleadpencil
03-26-2004, 09:03 PM
nice...can we see the wires?

Beastie
03-26-2004, 09:05 PM
Awesome. Front page!!!! Congrats! :buttrock:
Great texture work, great modeling, good concept design. All around good model

Fnote
03-26-2004, 09:14 PM
Jesus, this is flawless. No crits. Your on your way buddy!

feeesh
03-26-2004, 09:46 PM
Awwesome!!!! Wires Wires pleeeeeez!

I'd love to see a glance at how you did the UV map too if you'd be willing. Pretty sweet textures! :arteest:

-JH

dmonk
03-26-2004, 09:53 PM
I think this great. very original and I love the tusks on her outfit. Keep up the awesome work.

bluemagicuk
03-26-2004, 09:58 PM
Amazin textures and cool model !!!! fp fp fp fp fp fp fp fp fp fp woot

Obsidian
03-26-2004, 10:37 PM
Beautiful work. Fabulous texturing job.

elnady
03-26-2004, 10:41 PM
Nice work:wip:

rizob
03-26-2004, 11:00 PM
nice work ....very stylish.....you could get by with a 1024 map though....thats alot to push for on charatcer....good work

IkerCLoN
03-26-2004, 11:06 PM
As the dudes say, really nice concept and really nice texturing too. Congratulations!

AndyH
03-26-2004, 11:08 PM
Hope im not setting myself up for a torrent of abuse by making the only negative comment so far.....
Gotta balance the equation, eh?

VERY nice modelling and texturing, but the armor is a bit silly - a bullet or a chop to the gut and shes dead meat!
Faultless model, but impractical, cliched design.
I think im just fed up of the archetypal unreal style big-booted, cumbersome "cereal-boxes on arms" type mech suits....

Sorry - just speaking my mind!

Love the stuff on your site by the way

onlooker
03-26-2004, 11:31 PM
Regardless Andy she is still cool as h3ll.
I'll use her when you upload that character to a UT2K4 mods site. PM me when she is ready for prime time, and I'll play her. :thumbsup:

cris castro
03-26-2004, 11:35 PM
i agree with you andy h.

telek
03-27-2004, 12:00 AM
I would love to see this level of talent aimed at someting innovative. It is probably not the most popular stance, but as much as I love sci-fi and adventure themes, I would love to see this level of talent/technical achievement aimed at something innovative in concept.

The whole UT look is getting over stale.

iso
03-27-2004, 12:03 AM
amazing textures.

The only thing that looks a little odd is it seems that her arms are a little out of proportion to the rest of her body, they seem a little thick. or it may just be me. Anyways awesome job.

DoLeeP
03-27-2004, 12:48 AM
Absolutely stunning work

me_aaeem
03-27-2004, 01:12 AM
awesome stuff here...great design and texturing...

i disagree with Andy H...the scar on the belly tells a lot of the character...she's a dare devil kinda chic ain't she?...

vef
03-27-2004, 01:20 AM
I likes it, great texturing and yea on the scar :thumbsup:

gdb
03-27-2004, 01:22 AM
IT look really game-like but I guess that is what you are after with the low poly count. I really dig the texture!:)

insanepoly
03-27-2004, 01:30 AM
Whoa!!!! Congrats on making front page. You've been working hard I see. Anyway I hope this will be a sign of bigger and better things from you, good job.

Lugg
03-27-2004, 01:31 AM
Man, this is awesome! I love it! :)

This could have shipped with UT2004, it fits in perfectly! She looks like the cross-bred hybrid between the clans of the Nightmares and the Juggernauts... just great :) This should have been the last boss in UT2004, not that stupid Malcolm dude :)

Really cool to have you in CBP2 btw :)

Plays_4_Pants
03-27-2004, 01:34 AM
No offense, it's a good job, but what's this doing on the front page?


edit: just read andy's comment. Totally agree.

MadMech
03-27-2004, 01:39 AM
Great work here, check out www.eternal-silence.net we are looking for some good artists to help out skinning. Just email me if your interested

richdraws
03-27-2004, 01:49 AM
Hi folks,

Yes so I totally disagree with Andy on this one. Sometimes he makes valid points but on this occasion he is very wrong.

He has totally negelcted to notice that this design has taken into account the weight distribution that so massive an armour would create over a tiny waist like hers. It is clearly just about right to prevent a compression spine injury. Plus it is clear to all but the most inexperienced that her open mid riff is a cunning ruse to draw fire whilst she avoids and blasts caps to her opponents heads. This is perhaps the most intelligent of designs I have seen for a long time.

Regards

Rich

Plays_4_Pants
03-27-2004, 02:53 AM
Yeah, I don't agree with the whole "well the design doesn't make sense" but i completely agree with the design cliche. This is about as cliche as they get. Goth chic with huge guns and a sexy bod...lame.:cry:
oh and rich...a women like that couldn't hold up the shoulder pads of this thing...weight distribution...c'mon

sswift
03-27-2004, 03:35 AM
This is a very nice model.

But there's two problems with it.

One, my eyes are immediately drawn to her midriff, and two, her face is occluded too much by her armor. Problem two contributes to probem one, but even if you completely removed the armor around her face, I'm not sure that that would keep your eyes from looking at her stomach first.

dmcgrath
03-27-2004, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by richdraws
Hi folks,

Yes so I totally disagree with Andy on this one. Sometimes he makes valid points but on this occasion he is very wrong.

He has totally negelcted to notice that this design has taken into account the weight distribution that so massive an armour would create over a tiny waist like hers. It is clearly just about right to prevent a compression spine injury. Plus it is clear to all but the most inexperienced that her open mid riff is a cunning ruse to draw fire whilst she avoids and blasts caps to her opponents heads. This is perhaps the most intelligent of designs I have seen for a long time.

Regards

Rich

OMG! I had to laugh for that one.

Technically speaking, the armor befits a typical UT2003 player. Since your actual view is only through the portal of your Monitor(s).
Being able to look to the left or the right literally doesn't work unless you turn your character to face said direction.


On another note, I will agree that the cliche is played well out,
but nonetheless, it is a good handling of the job.

gatchaman
03-27-2004, 03:55 AM
恭喜发财! gong xi fa cai!

i think she looks cool & believeable. looking fwd to more good work from ya.

xenia
03-27-2004, 05:10 AM
I agree with Plays_4_Pants, this is cliche.
But also cliche can be at the front page.
Personaly I don't think it deserves it. Proportions are not right, the person cannot look left an right. The strong part of this work are the textures. But that's about it.
Not bad.

liquidcourage1
03-27-2004, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by xenia
I agree with Plays_4_Pants, this is cliche.
But also cliche can be at the front page.
Personaly I don't think it deserves it. Proportions are not right, the person cannot look left an right. The strong part of this work are the textures. But that's about it.
Not bad.

something you have to remember about this piece... it's for a game. A very over-the-top game. It doesn't have to be in perfect proportion. Think comic books. Not everything is in proportion and not everything is practical. It just looks good in it's particular setting.

BuddytheRat
03-27-2004, 06:44 AM
This kicks so much ass.

It's like Samus's EVIL (and equally awesome) counterpart.

:applause:

The only thing that bugs me though, is the hair. It looks very strange in the angles where it is blocking her face.

Mahlikus
03-27-2004, 06:53 AM
OMG! Awesome!
I want to take her out for some onslaught fragging wicked bad.
:buttrock: :thumbsup: :beer: :drool:

BonciuToma
03-27-2004, 07:25 AM
I think that it's a great model and the textures are great. I don't think that this model should be judge through the eye of relity. I'm saying this becouse the character is made for an UNreal type of games. Nothis is real in unreal tournament. And no character, no matter how big and strong it is, could carry that armor if it were a real person. But it's not. It's not about reality. It's about UNrealiTY.

Just my point of view on this model. You have 10 points from me.

the_zed_axis
03-27-2004, 08:03 AM
good lord may the heavens be praised this is one frieking awesome model i mean hey 'weight distrubution' is always a problem with big boob-tiny waist women but do we care oooo no lol
eye candy its a fantasy world and this chic rocks :buttrock: lol
nice work on the textures by the way

-=InQ=-
03-27-2004, 08:19 AM
This is a so so so so so so so cool character!! :) Design and modelling and texturing are all the way awesome!!
Please please please please show us the texture maps! :)

hv2
03-27-2004, 08:27 AM
Textures is good ,bat model is low poly no ?:bounce:

Prs-Phil
03-27-2004, 08:36 AM
I think its a bit over the top slamming a highres texture like that onto a model with such a low polycount. 1024s would of easylie been sufficent.

Still, sweet piece of work :)

dominicqwek
03-27-2004, 08:39 AM
wires.:)

http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_wires.jpg

-=InQ=-
03-27-2004, 08:44 AM
Is it 3DS MAX?

dominicqwek
03-27-2004, 08:47 AM
Tks to eveyone for the comments. the intended resolution for in game will be 1024 x 1024. im doing renders at 2048 just for the sake of showcasing the textures.

Its good to see a nice of mix of response to this design. Like i said, this is targetted at the unreal universe. And definitely some things work for some people and some dont. At the end of the day, it really boils down to repecting each other's opinion. Its quite interesting actually, to see that how different people react to different things.:thumbsup:

She'll be ported over to UT2k4 !! :beer: i'll have to make do with some ammendments to the armour though. Once again, tks for all the comments.

I'll load up texture maps as soon as possible. Been really busy.:surprised

GARA
03-27-2004, 09:31 AM
wow...nice stuff m8 ^^

EdySusanto
03-27-2004, 11:29 AM
i cannot make textures looks this good :(
really really nice model n texture broo :)

splintah
03-27-2004, 11:49 AM
amazing thing:bowdown:

please some BIGGER wires
id love to see how you did the face and all

pleeeeeese :bounce:

sapienz
03-27-2004, 12:53 PM
wah dom ... congrats on gettin on front page
nice to see a fellow SG not to mention senior doin so well here
thats some cool textures you got there...
i love the weathered rust effect

TDA_3d
03-27-2004, 01:39 PM
I can't believe people are saying this dosent deserve frontpage because "she can't look left or right" etc. Just because it wouldn't work as body armour in "real life" why is that any reason to say it shouldnt be getting frontpage on a CG forum? IMO the frontpage award is given as a recognition of outstanding skill in the fields of modelling and texturing, i don't think the award hangs on the balance of a models "real life" value (expecially when you're told my the artist that it's aimed at the unreal universe).

The model and skin are amazing dom, don't listen to certain mindless critics.

animalunae
03-27-2004, 02:58 PM
Fantastic!

baoling
03-27-2004, 03:00 PM
Congratulation!!! :thumbsup:

geoMan
03-27-2004, 03:16 PM
i did see this one on threedy.....just bumping to say that nice deformations;)

dominicqwek
03-27-2004, 04:26 PM
splintah- here you go.:bounce:

dominicqwek
03-27-2004, 04:28 PM
texture maps. :buttrock:

http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_tex.jpg

stenarts
03-27-2004, 04:50 PM
The Polygons found their master :wavey:

stojanovich_gtl
03-27-2004, 05:10 PM
Excellent work, amazing for game figure.

cac2889
03-27-2004, 05:55 PM
Um...script that if you know how and make it a UT2K4 character....PLEASE!!!

Emmortal1
03-27-2004, 08:31 PM
Wow, lots of wasted space in that texture layout. You could optmize that much much better.

dominicqwek
03-27-2004, 08:49 PM
hey sten- good to see you around.hope things are goin good for you. :beer:

cac-yeah she will be ported over..hopefully.

Emmortal-yep. point taken. i'm a noob when it comes to game models :p

SharkyBlue
03-27-2004, 09:49 PM
Sick dude! I want that model in my game now! :bounce:

Sunce1971
03-27-2004, 11:27 PM
Beautiful artwork, and congratulations on your front page.
Hip hip hura x3.

Neil
03-27-2004, 11:45 PM
Totally sweet model. nice look and everything!

Except...

You mentioned putting this over to an engine. I would shrink that texture map, optimize the layout, and use default rendering, then lets see what it looks like. More out of curiousity, than anything else. VERY SICK!

anoon
03-28-2004, 03:01 AM
Not to be a downer, but I don't think this model reads very well. (See render of 4 poses on grey background especially.) I'm having a hard time picking out the character. I see a waist and a head sticking out of a mass of jumbly machinery/armor. Perhaps there is too much detail in the texture or something. I think it's the multitude of little divisions in each main area of the character.

Just my 2 cents.

oxyg3n
03-28-2004, 06:19 AM
I like the model. Nice work.

BiTMAP
03-28-2004, 07:19 AM
UT2k4 supports a 1024 texture for body and another for head. i would fix it so her head is more visible.. They texture layout could be worked on, but i'd play as her :D

GodZilly
03-28-2004, 10:48 AM
I like the scar on the stomach, its a realistic touch, as the UT-fighters are figthing for life and death, and are not celebs that look like barbie-dolls

Wi_2
03-28-2004, 10:54 AM
awesome..

will u make it working in any game?
this thing is amazing

dominicqwek
03-28-2004, 01:24 PM
The textures will be shrunk to 1024 x 1024 for the body and 512x512 for the head. This is done to meet UT2K4 requirements. She should be available in mid may if everything goes smoothly :beer: she'll be released along with the CBP for ut2k4 :)

Oh yeah. there'll be minor ammendments made to the design as well.

dazrenius
03-29-2004, 01:22 AM
great concept and execution!!

Kid-Mesh
03-29-2004, 01:32 AM
:buttrock:

altermind
03-29-2004, 03:52 AM
the perportions are a little wierd..... way to much detail not enuf white space....

also the hips... way to much.. shed never be able to move with that :P


but DAMN nice... perhaps turn the saturation down on some of the objects...

keep it up :)

Mirrabooka
03-29-2004, 04:26 AM
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

DaForce
03-29-2004, 04:37 AM
Very very very nice!!!!

I assume this model will be for ut2004?

Will you make it available for download?

RYGUY182
03-29-2004, 05:17 AM
very kool model has lots of appeal and fits right in!! love your texturing too! keep it up

Impus
03-29-2004, 05:49 AM
Nice model. Texture looks pretty clean, would it be possible to get a look at the texture map?

Face looks a little blurred?

Peter Hon
03-29-2004, 05:51 AM
She has rather large hips, and the legs are alittle to close together for that hip size.

Its not a big problem, but it seems I'm the only one who notices. Otherwise, a great model. Keep it up :beer:

dominicqwek
04-02-2004, 03:30 AM
altermind-tks for the crits. I had a lime green version that was pretty dull. the guys at polycount suggested that i turned up the saturation so i switche to red. The team DM colours will be even more saturated! :p

DaForce- yep. mid may along with the CBP for ut2k4 :beer:

RYGUY-tks

Impus- here's the textures
http://www.dominicqwek.com/3d/ggirl_tex.jpg

Pete- yeah i know whatcha mean. I'll be slimming her down for ut2k4. :bounce:

Thanks to everyone for their C&Cs!

Zafar Iqbal
04-02-2004, 08:12 PM
Front paaaaaaage!!!

DaForce
04-02-2004, 09:49 PM
dom: Awesome :-) keep us updated !

Zafar Iqbal: It was frontpage about a week ago :-)

Kizza
04-03-2004, 05:35 AM
It's nice to see you say you're a noob to game models, look what a friggin noob can do.

Looking forward to the CBP release, very cool indeed.

Zafar Iqbal
04-03-2004, 05:52 AM
Oh! ... well.. :blush:

.. AGAIN AGAAAAIN! :)

Yina
04-03-2004, 09:46 AM
:thumbsup:

ind
04-03-2004, 10:06 AM
I noticed the thing with the hips too peter, but even though it makes the body somewhat less perfect, it's not uncommon for women to have hips like that. Usually you see this when girls are very thin, but have the build of a somewhat bigger women.

SIMPLE
04-05-2004, 03:13 AM
Cooooooool!

mummey
04-11-2004, 01:03 AM
At the risk of exposing how little ut I've played, what is CBP?

Anyways, cool model! If it looks anything like that in the game I'll be sure to pick up ut2k4.

-B

Kizza
04-11-2004, 07:22 AM
At the risk of revealing how much I've played UT, the CBP is a Community Bonus Pack of all the best original game content created by the gaming community. To find out more check out this site: http://www.planetunreal.com/cbp/

dominicqwek
04-11-2004, 06:37 PM
Thanks guys. (and girls)

Some shots of her ingame, still in the testing phase, will be doing up the team colours soon. ;)

http://www.dominicqwek.com/temp/ggirl_RT_03.jpg

http://www.dominicqwek.com/temp/ggirl_RT_04.jpg

TheFish
04-11-2004, 08:07 PM
Wonderfull ! Awesome ! Perfect !
:applause: :beer: :thumbsup: :bowdown:

Kizza
04-12-2004, 07:27 AM
She fights right in.

dominicqwek
04-20-2004, 03:58 AM
Team colours :p

http://www.dominicqwek.com/wip/ggirl_RT_03.jpg

Aimes
04-20-2004, 01:01 PM
Wow... :eek: that is some great work! Very nice :)

cac2889
04-20-2004, 04:57 PM
Sweeet. :applause:

StephanD
04-20-2004, 04:59 PM
Awesome...but she doesn't look goth to me.

Mahlikus
04-20-2004, 07:37 PM
O:eek:
M:eek:
G:eek:
:buttrock:

reCurse
04-21-2004, 09:35 PM
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

holy crap dude, i want this character, i would so use that.

pureprplaya
04-28-2004, 02:05 PM
at first I wasnt thrilled, I seen this character up here on the fp for a while, never thought about clicking it... today I was bored so I did click it and I was rather impressed... I kept clicking along the thread and finally got to the in-game shots.

All i could say is fabulous work... your making me re-install UT right now hoping you let us use her

dominicqwek
05-19-2004, 05:41 PM
For those who are interested, CBP2 will be released on the 20th may, which should be soon if nothing screws up.

http://www.planetunreal.com/cbp/

shadowkeeper
06-03-2004, 07:18 PM
Really nice character, dude! Is she available?:thumbsup:

feeesh
06-03-2004, 11:17 PM
Just wanted to reiterate what a cool model she is. Been playing her after installing the CBP2. Good fun! She's a hottie! :blush:

Laura04
06-03-2004, 11:36 PM
Wow, talk about detail! You've done quite a nice job here. The only thing I think is maybe the bulky stuff hanging on to her takes away from ability to notice all of the detail put into this. Maybe it's just me though. I think that if a little of the bulk was sized down that people would notice the detail more. I'm just overwhemed. Way to go :)

Kizza
06-05-2004, 03:07 AM
I love the bulk, I think she looks stylish.

RactivE
06-07-2004, 09:58 PM
:applause: at first i thought it WAS for the unreal universe, without reading that thats what you intended. very good work.

grid_crawler
06-10-2004, 02:07 AM
Very nice. :applause:

I do have a noob question for you.
When you made the texture how did you know just were to paint what?
I mean how do you know or figure out just were to paint
so things line up and are not... say upside down?



:cool:

Kizza
06-10-2004, 02:35 AM
Grid Crawler: It Helps to have a good UV map. Also for UT2003-4 there is a tool called UPaint that lets you paint directly onto your model, I find it to be a bit on the hard to use side but it at least lets you paint basic stuff to fix in Photoshop, or whatever you use. The Mastring Unreal video tutorials will probably be the best thing to help you if you're interested in doing skins or anything really for the Unreal Universe.

And BTW, she is the character I play as, since she came out. And as a male, I prefer to be a male ingame. But she is too damn cool.

grid_crawler
06-10-2004, 07:34 AM
I got Upaint and UT2003.
I'm not really interested in making skins for UT but
i am interested in learning how it all works.

Thx for the info. :beer:

dominicqwek
06-14-2004, 04:08 PM
thanks for all the support :beer:

elshadow- yes she is available at polycount under models submission queue list. you can also get her from the CBP2 website (http://www.polycount.com/cbp)

feesh- thanks m8.

Laura04- the bulk has been sized for UT2004, or else she wouldnt fit into the vehicles.;)

Kizza-tks once more.

grid crawler- i work in photoshop, and what i do is lay out guides to indicate the elements of design in each part. and then check back on the mesh in 3dsmax to see whether everything looks the way it should look. :)

DoLeeP
06-14-2004, 07:24 PM
Absolutely stunning work

iam4
06-20-2004, 06:17 PM
-It looks the special stick
-I like very much
-Study to you

nydus
06-21-2004, 08:40 AM
really nice work, your goal was unreal universe and you've got it to a T. The texture work the model, i think it fits right it, nice work.

nydus
06-21-2004, 08:40 AM
double post:sad:

linkmatrix
06-22-2004, 05:14 AM
Great texturing the model is Unreal.

ty19345
06-23-2004, 04:00 AM
totally rocks~
I give u :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Rikaro
06-23-2004, 07:31 PM
really cool low polly. keep up the work!

icezasa
06-25-2004, 04:32 AM
very very nice reminde me of old space books or romans,whitch they used to have back in the days~!

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