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Cartesius
03-18-2004, 11:46 PM
Anders Kjellberg has entered the Machineflesh 3D Challenge.

Cartesius
03-18-2004, 11:48 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1079653689_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1079653689_large.jpg)

Sorry, can't draw very good. Explanation and story will follow soon.

Cartesius
03-18-2004, 11:57 PM
OK, here's some background on the concept:

Oculus Medicus

The year is 2769. The Earth is polluted beyond recognition and engulfed in a thick layer of acid rain and hazardous smoke. The sunlight can no longer reach the surface of the Earth and people are literally living in darkness. Large private corporations are in charge all fuel reserves, as well as the responsibility for maintaining law and order. Medical welfare as we know it has collapsed. The corporations runs all legal medical facilities and hospitals. Doctors and surgeons are equipped with mechanical implants to help them better perform their specialized duties (scalpels and scissors instead of fingers, for example). Gated communities where the wealthy can live in safety are the only places where you can find medical aid. Unfortunately they are forbidden areas for 99% of the population.

Due to the hazardous environment, people on Earth started developing various new forms of diseases around the turn of the century. The most alarming is the loss of eye-sight. The constant darkness strains the eyes in itself but the acid air destroys even the physiological functions of the eye and generally all those who are forced to live outside the gated communities are blind when they reach 30. There is an operation that can save the eyesight but since medical assistance is only available for some, more drastic actions has to be taken by those living the hard life. Failed doctors and surgeons who for one reason or another got kicked out from the communities can perform the operation in exchange for large sums of money. By replacing the sick eye with a en electronic eyepiece, much like a camera lens, the eyesight can be restored as well as giving the bearer the ability to see in the dark using infrared sensors. The operation is painful and dangerous. The surgeons performing them have little or no education and their mechanical implants are crude and often malfunctioning. Many of them are more into the maiming and torture of the patient than actually helping, but since they are the only ones available…

***************

Basically it will be a malicious eye surgeon with surgical implants instead of fingers (scalpel, saw, injection needle and so on). The scene will depict the surgeon (who already have performed the operation on himself) standing over the patient (the viewer) holding the patient's removed eye in his left hand.

I can't draw to save my life so this sketch is only a starting point. Stay tuned. :)

/Anders

JamesMK
03-19-2004, 12:14 AM
Sounds promising! Seems like you're going for a portrait kind of mood then... Looking forward to see it evolve :thumbsup:



Oh, and feeeeeeel the pressure... :D

Cartesius
03-19-2004, 12:19 AM
Yep, it will be another portrait but not a very flattering one. I will try to make him very, very repulsive (both his human and mechanical appearance).

And believe me, I do feeeel the pressure! :thumbsup:

/Anders

soapy
03-19-2004, 01:16 AM
Ah yeah, looks like a good concept. I enjoyed the story, isn't that sort of what we have now? Bring on the implants!

Cartesius
03-20-2004, 12:38 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1079743104_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1079743104_large.jpg)

This syringe will be attached to malicious eye surgeon's middle-finger. I still haven't figured out how, though, since my inital idea for it didn't work out as planned.

JamesMK
03-20-2004, 12:40 AM
Nice and clean - looks like the liquid inside is high-grade toxic stuff!

Cartesius
03-20-2004, 12:47 AM
Thanks, and Oh yes, it's toxic all right -- we're talking a seriously demented eye surgeon here! Tomorrow I will add the pumping mechanism inside (it wont be very visible in the final render, I think, but it has to be there) and also do a new attack on how the syringe and the rest of the instruments are to be attached to the finger stumps.

/Anders

Cartesius
03-20-2004, 03:14 PM
OK, this is how I temporarily has solved the connection issue -- bolts and clamps. Next up: the scalpel.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/syringe_attach.jpg

soapy
03-20-2004, 04:07 PM
Seriously nice modeling as usual Anders.

Cartesius
03-21-2004, 12:02 AM
Thanks soapy! Here's an update: scalpels.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/scalpel1.jpg

Cartesius
03-21-2004, 01:03 AM
And here's the Stryker saw. It only took me 15 minutes so it's a bit bland but I will add more stuff tomorrow.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/strykersaw.jpg

soapy
03-21-2004, 06:57 AM
Hey I bet those clippers would be really handy for trimming nose hairs!

Cartesius
03-21-2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by soapy
Hey I bet those clippers would be really handy for trimming nose hairs!

LOL! Handy but quite risky :)

I've remodeled the scalpel-finger since the first draft felt too clumpsy.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/new_scalpel.jpg

Cartesius
03-22-2004, 08:34 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1079987696_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1079987696_large.jpg)

Started modeling the hand tonight. Two hands will be visible in the scene: one complete and one with mechanical instruments instead of fingers.

/Anders

painkiller
03-22-2004, 08:59 PM
it's nice to know that he have a normal finger too .... :p
i like all the small ditails .... when all come together ?

:thumbsup:

JamesMK
03-22-2004, 09:12 PM
Makes me think of bomb squads... the wires here...

- OK, so cut the red cable!
- Are you sure?
- No no no, wait a minute, maybe it's the green one!
- - -

painkiller
03-22-2004, 09:39 PM
yaaaa......... and every time he cut the wrong wire ....
wooops !!! lost another finger :cry:
never mind - this one will be screwdriver .... :applause:

Cartesius
03-22-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by painkiller
it's nice to know that he have a normal finger too .... :p
i like all the small ditails .... when all come together ?

:thumbsup:

Yeah, he will have one or two normal fingers :) I hope to finish the base of the hand this week, then bone it (I've never boned a mesh before since I mostly do stills, but this one will require it).


Originally posted by JamesMK

- OK, so cut the red cable!
- Are you sure?
- No no no, wait a minute, maybe it's the green one!
- - -

You know what they say -- when in doubt cut the one in the middle! Or do the classic: hover over the red cable and when it's 2 secs left, change your mind and cut the yellow instead. Always works.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/finger2.jpg

soapy
03-23-2004, 06:59 PM
Nice work on the hand so far. Hands are a pain.

AndersZ
03-23-2004, 09:32 PM
That's some classy machine-modeling!

Looks promising.

Anders

Cartesius
03-23-2004, 11:25 PM
Thanks both of you! Yes, hands is a pain but since they will be quite central I feel I have to do them as good as I can.

The basic shape is done but I still need to add some detailing and get the more refined shape down (they still look a bit odd, but I think that's partly due to the fact that the fingers are still straight and parallell -- will start boning this weekend -- and that they are all cloned from the same finger).

Cheers!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/hands_test.jpg

AndersZ
03-24-2004, 04:02 PM
Yeah, they look a bit odd and that's probably because fingers (my atleast...) are all crooky and bent and the hand seems a little bit square.

It's a great start, I like the detailing with the nails and folds.

Anders

Shadow Seraph
03-24-2004, 04:48 PM
really enjoying this
its nice to just see it released one piece at a time... get to really focus on seeing what you are doing one step here and there
really liking the detail and everything coming together.... mmm well done indeed

Cartesius
03-24-2004, 05:13 PM
@AndersZ: Tackar :)

@Shadow Seraph: Thanks! I'm planning on posting screens and low res pictures of all the modeling, texturing and lighting up to the final render. It's a great way to get feedback and those following the thread can also get a better grasp on what's happening.

/Anders

ZHAMP
03-24-2004, 05:35 PM
Woooo... :eek: Your model looks good. :applause:

ZHAMP
03-24-2004, 05:41 PM
OH!!! I forgot... sorry... I wanna tell you that I think a hand is too wide when compare with fingers... Just my opinion...

Sorry for my english

Cartesius
03-24-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by ZHAMP
OH!!! I forgot... sorry... I wanna tell you that I think a hand is too wide when compare with fingers... Just my opinion...

Sorry for my english

YES! That's it! I've been looking at the model for hours without figuring out why it looks a bit odd and then you pop in and mention that the fingers are too thin compared to the palm, and you are probably right. Thanks! :thumbsup: There are other issues with it as well but the fingers are definitely too thin and slender. I'll get right on them.

Oh, and your English is fine, don't worry.

/Anders

mikepolizos
03-24-2004, 06:44 PM
Looking great so far mate!
Keep us updated!!!
:thumbsup:

soapy
03-24-2004, 07:00 PM
Yep that finger length thickness thing is a tough problem. I am still not sure about my hand either, I spent a lot of time pushing and pulling the fingers around.

I didnt want to say anything since everyone has different hands. "like, hey Pal, you got skinny fingers..." Reminds me of that joke: 'Big hands means,....

big gloves"

Cartesius
03-24-2004, 09:22 PM
You're right about the length of the fingers, soapy, that is very individual and very hard to get right. Well, I've once again shifted some points and hopefully I can get away with it now. I will stop tweaking it for now and move on to boning it (which I've never done before). Will post an update tomorrow.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/hand_test2.jpg

mikekrush
03-24-2004, 09:26 PM
Hey good job Cartesius :)
I can t wait to see the arm that come with this hand ;)
good luck :thumbsup:

soapy
03-24-2004, 09:49 PM
And with bones you can cure a multitude of sins. Once posed a lot of issues will go away. Also you can resize with the bones or move the bones to lenghthen or shorten fingers. If you bend something and it looks funky you can add a little helper bone to pull out some polys, for instance on a knuckle or elbow that flattens out too much. cheers, happy boning.

DaVee
03-24-2004, 09:50 PM
Hands looks good.

i think its really difficult to have good proportions for hands. they're all different.

Can we see a wire of yours.

:thumbsup: :beer:

JamesMK
03-24-2004, 10:25 PM
Good looking hand! I'd like to second DaVee's opinion about the proportions.

The only thing that stands out a bit is how straight the creases on the fingers are. If anything should be changed, that would be it. But then again, the questions is if it's worth the trouble since it will all look different once it's rigged and posed.

Good job, Anders!

jddog
03-25-2004, 07:55 AM
hey thumbs up for your hand Ander...
I entered today too. hehe ;) funny to see all your pieces one after all.

by the way I - subscribe - your thread...

jdd

Cartesius
03-25-2004, 09:21 AM
Thanks guys! Yes, the proportions of the hand are very varied indeed and the hand itself is, next to the ear and foot, the most difficult part of the human body to get right.

I hope the modeling of it is done for now. The boning will produce some weird effects on the geometry, I suppose, so creases will probably be dealt with then. The boning will start tonight, by the way, and that will be a very new experience for me.

I will post a wire later tonight as I'm at work now.

Cheers!

/Anders

JamesMK
03-25-2004, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Cartesius
The boning will start tonight, by the way, and that will be a very new experience for me.
I've got a great joke coming up - but some things are better left unspoken :D :beer:

Cartesius
03-25-2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by JamesMK
I've got a great joke coming up - but some things are better left unspoken :D :beer:

Yep, that is a sentence that can invite some very low remarks :)

/Anders

JamesMK
03-25-2004, 10:02 AM
lol - - - anyway, I'm a newb too when it comes to C4D-rigging... I know what you're up against :D Best of luck I wisheth thee.

Cartesius
03-25-2004, 11:08 AM
Thank you, good sir! I will post an update tonight.

/Anders

DaVee
03-25-2004, 11:47 AM
A little bit late.

Originally posted by JamesMK
Good looking hand! I'd like to second DaVee's opinion about the proportions.

The only thing that stands out a bit is how straight the creases on the fingers are. If anything should be changed, that would be it. But then again, the questions is if it's worth the trouble since it will all look different once it's rigged and posed.



Just two words: ... i agreee.

:)

Cartesius
03-25-2004, 06:15 PM
OK, here are some wires!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/hand_wire.jpg

JamesMK
03-25-2004, 06:23 PM
Spanking clean! - do I see traces of MS being used?

If your up for crits, I would argue that it is in fact TOO clean... It could use a bit of a slightly messier organic flow.

Cartesius
03-25-2004, 06:32 PM
Thanks! And you're absolutely right, MS was used from start to finish and without it this would have been a modeling nightmare. A little bit of Katana, some Scalpel and a hint of Jigsaw gives a perfect blend :)

Yes, I think it's a bit too uniform as well but I will rig it and try some movements before I mess it up. I've started painting the vertex maps and already noticed some funny stuff happening that needs correction.

/Anders

DaVee
03-25-2004, 09:37 PM
Interresting wire. Sure, I counldn't make better than you.

i can wait to see you're hand with fingers bending.

Very interresting. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Cartesius
03-25-2004, 11:13 PM
Man, rigging is difficult! I'm not even sure I'm doing it right to begin with (adding bones, painting vertex maps and setting up restriction tags) but finally I got something that looks... well, OK. There are still points to tweak (around the fingertips, for example) but this is roughly how the hand will be seen in the final scene, with a surgically removed eye on a metal stick. There will be an arm and some sort of clothing as well. Now off to bed!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/hand_posed.jpg

JamesMK
03-26-2004, 12:38 AM
Good eye-on-a-stick! For some reason I imagined an oversized olive just fished out of a really large martini.

You will from now on be called Sir Rigalot.

Cartesius
03-26-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by JamesMK
Good eye-on-a-stick! For some reason I imagined an oversized olive just fished out of a really large martini.

You will from now on be called Sir Rigalot.

It does bear remblance to a large olive, but this one will be more gruesome :)

/Anders

jddog
03-26-2004, 05:04 PM
Anders :thumbsup:

MikaelPersson
03-26-2004, 05:35 PM
Nice stuff you got there Anders. If I could chip in on the proportions of his hand... I would say make his palm as long as his fingers. That will sort it out in my eyes atleast. Those syringes (sp?) look very interesting. I am looking forward to more.

Cartesius
03-26-2004, 10:49 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1080341348_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1080341348_large.jpg)

I've reposed tha hand slightly as you can see (no more olive on a stick) and also added the beginnings of a wrist. You can continue refine your vertex maps and bones forever, I think, but I feel I have to move on, at least for now. Next up: a shell for the scalpel.

/Anders

Cartesius
03-26-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Mikael P.
Nice stuff you got there Anders. If I could chip in on the proportions of his hand... I would say make his palm as long as his fingers. That will sort it out in my eyes atleast. Those syringes (sp?) look very interesting. I am looking forward to more.

Thanks Mikael P! i did at one point make his fingers longer, but when I boned them they looked like alien fingers -- very long compared to the rest, so I shortened them back again. They will be seen in perspective so I think I can get away with it (but until I place them in the final pose with the rest of the environment I can't be sure).

OK, here's what I meant by a shell for the scalpel. I got the impression that it looked too simple and bare boned as it was before, but then I got this idea. The wires will run underneath the whole structure (not under the shells as the single wire is now) and possibly I will also connect each plate with either a wire or a piston. What do you think?

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/scalpel2.jpg

***D!D***
03-27-2004, 01:47 AM
OH ! That's really good modeling

Continu :bounce:

Cartesius
03-27-2004, 11:18 AM
Thank you D!D, glad you're liking it :)

Started working on the fingers/instruments of the right hand.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/test_hand_w_tool.jpg

MikaelPersson
03-27-2004, 12:57 PM
I like your scalpell. But wouldn't it look nicer if it's base were at the beginning of the finger? Maybe have a lokng wire going back from it to the wrist of the hand?
I think you misunderstood me when I spoke of the size of his hand. I did not mean you to make those fingers longer, but to make his palm as long as his fingers.

ODoul
03-27-2004, 01:35 PM
Attaching to thread! Looking typically great so far, Anders.

Cartesius
03-27-2004, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Mikael P.
I like your scalpell. But wouldn't it look nicer if it's base were at the beginning of the finger? Maybe have a lokng wire going back from it to the wrist of the hand?
I think you misunderstood me when I spoke of the size of his hand. I did not mean you to make those fingers longer, but to make his palm as long as his fingers.

Yes, my wife suggested that as well, to attach the instruments almost to the knuckles instead of the first joint. The reason I'm not is that when I tried it I wasn't really pleased with the result. It looked very much like an oval plate instead of a palm. And I couldn't figure out a clean way to attach the instruments to the flesh and bones. I might do it on one or two fingers but the rest will probably be attached to the joints instead.

Yep, I misunderstood you :) I will give it a try and see how it looks!

3D_Explorer: Nice to see you here, mate! :thumbsup:

Latest update:

I've refined the way the instruments will be attached to the flesh and also added some more wires. Let me know what you think!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/hand_scalpel3.jpg

Cartesius
03-27-2004, 07:30 PM
And a detail:

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/hand_scalpel_detail.jpg

Borro
03-27-2004, 08:29 PM
Great details! Keep up the good work!

Cartesius
03-27-2004, 11:49 PM
Thanks Borro!

Update: The syringe is in place. I had to shorten the main tube a bit for it to fit properly. The tube will probably be connected to his arm somehow. Right now I'm reworking the saw. I just can't get it right. My first attempt, the one I posted earlier didn't work (the blade has to be in a 90 degree angle to the shaft, otherwise he would risk thrashing the rest of the instruments) but whatever I can think of just ends up looking like a pizza slicer... Oh well, I'll have another go at it tomorrow!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/hand_2_5.jpg

DDS
03-28-2004, 01:48 AM
This is great man!

the idea is good, and the modelling has begun complex and clean.

keep it on :D

doe
03-28-2004, 01:57 AM
i must say, i dont liked the idea at the first time. but the clean and solid modelling catched me ..
good work on this one.

Crovex
03-28-2004, 01:40 PM
nice design, very clean. I love the amount of detail.
I'm curious about the other attributes now ;)
keep it up!

jddog
03-28-2004, 02:36 PM
ROCK&ROLL... BLAST ...

this is :thumbsup: + :bounce: +:bowdown:

amazing work on your hand Cartesius... keep it more than up !

jdd

JamesMK
03-28-2004, 05:36 PM
Still terrifyingly clean stuff! But then again, in a sterile surgical setting, nothing else is acceptable.

The connection between the knuckle and the first segment of the finger-finger (he he) looks a bit weak, aside from that everything seems perfect for the purpose and very versatile.

Where can I buy a kit like that? Would be great to have for my weekend torture sessions!

Cartesius
03-28-2004, 09:33 PM
Thanks people, glad you like it so far! :)

@JamesMK: You might be right about the clamps, they might be to weak. On the other hand I don't want any huge metalstitches or -pins. I might rework them though. And you get these instruments from a Pains'R'Us store. :)

Update: I remodeled the saw and put it in place. The pinky will have forceps of some sort and the thumb is still open for suggestions.

Cheers!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/hand_3_5.jpg

Cartesius
03-28-2004, 09:34 PM
And a detail of the saw:

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/saw_detail.jpg

JamesMK
03-28-2004, 09:48 PM
Hmm... seems Pains'R'us don't have any store here in Kalmar, might have to take a trip to Ume' later on then :)

The thumb -> how about a retractor? It's a strong finger too, so it would be fairly logical to have that kind of tool there.

:wip:

polybuilder
03-28-2004, 11:31 PM
Looks like your comming along well:) I really like your ideas so far anyway, and the saw... well, I can see what you mean by "looking like a pizza slicer" ..... you cuold try and change the blade a bit .... maybe a different type of "tooth" on the the blade might work here. Well there ye go, I've commented and I get to be updated as well. GREAT!:bounce:

Cartesius
03-29-2004, 12:19 PM
@JamesMK: A retractor is a good idea, but I have some trouble working out the functions. A retractor typically has two shafts and somehow these two needs to merge into one at the base of the finger. I'm sketching on a possible solution and will post an experiment as soon as I can.

@polybuilder: Changing the blade-type might be a solution, and I'm attaching a quickie I did at work today. Better?

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/sawblade.jpg

jddog
03-29-2004, 12:26 PM
Hi Anders...
your last blade, well is good, but if I look it , it remind me a cloud... something more agressive ?

Well don't know what will be the final result, because I think this blade will be really small on the final render...

just a comment at first glance...

jdd

Cartesius
03-29-2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by jddog
Hi Anders...
your last blade, well is good, but if I look it , it remind me a cloud... something more agressive ?

Well don't know what will be the final result, because I think this blade will be really small on the final render...

just a comment at first glance...

jdd

Good point, maybe it isn't aggressive enough. The colour is just there to show the shape, but the blade will indeed be rather small in the final render (yet visible enough to be recognizable). What if I put smaller teeth between the larger ones? I will post an example later tonight.

/Anders

MikaelPersson
03-29-2004, 01:10 PM
Looking nice Anders. Now the issue of your instruments being to far out on the fingers has vanished. The placement of them look nice now.
That new blade is way more interesting than your first one I must say. Otherwise I just have to chime in with the others, very clean and nice modelling. Way to go.

jddog
03-29-2004, 02:30 PM
What if I put smaller teeth between the larger ones?

probably better... just all depending on the final dimension, well don't trash this one, just in case ;).

jdd

painkiller
03-29-2004, 04:35 PM
nice .... very nice ...... i like the second blade more
just close the gap between the tooths... (or teeth !?)

JamesMK
03-29-2004, 05:25 PM
You could also consider a saggital sternum saw - I guess they make a back-and-forth movement rather than rotational... they look pretty cool, like this::..

http://www.microaire.com/images/products/380.gif

Cartesius
03-29-2004, 05:54 PM
@jddog: I won't trash it since stuff like this can come in handy when you least know it :)

@painkiller: Thanks, I'll test it withouth the gaps! Tooth? Teeth? Let's call them Pain Inflictors!)

@JamesMK: That was actually my original intention, to model a classic reciprocal bone saw. I had to drop the idea though, when I realized that thses types of saws usually demand a pretty sturdy casing (see image). On the other hand, the scene takes place in the future so they may have evolved? I'll see what I can do, thanks!

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Tools/BoneSaw/BoneSawViews/strcut.jpg

flyingP
03-29-2004, 06:01 PM
I thought you said you couldn't model hands :D seem to have missed that you were entered in here Anders, you are at any rate bookmarked now, nice progress :thumbsup:

Cartesius
03-29-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by flyingP
I thought you said you couldn't model hands :D seem to have missed that you were entered in here Anders, you are at any rate bookmarked now, nice progress :thumbsup:

Nice to see you here :beer: The hands were a pain but at least now I know how to roughly do them. They are a mix of Bunk's and Antropus' tutorials, plus intensive study of Otto.

Update: I finally decided to go with the attached blade, at least for now. I will probably change it later but I wanna start with an idea about retractors I have.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/sawblade2.jpg

JamesMK
03-29-2004, 10:57 PM
I guess that blade looks evil enough now :)

With some drops of blood on them later - yups, it will be wicked.

jddog
03-30-2004, 06:45 AM
yes yes JamesMK... wicked :buttrock:
cool Cartesius !
jdd

liquidik
03-30-2004, 07:03 AM
Ohhh medical surgery... going with this idea myself.
Anyway, pretty good execution, though I think you could try to make the hand a little less dead.
Don't know if I'm clear...

Good job!

:thumbsup:

Cartesius
03-30-2004, 10:34 AM
@JamesMK: Yep, there will be blood :) But hey, what happened to the bunny!?

@jddog: Thanks!

@liquidik: I think I know what you mean about the hand being "dead", it needs some more movement somehow. I will try to fix that once I get all the instrumnets in place as it's easier to attach them in a neutral pose.

/Anders

JamesMK
03-30-2004, 10:37 AM
Good, blood....

Seems like the server upgrade couldn't handle the raw animal magnetism of the bunny and decided to kill the file.

I'll fix it when I get back home....

ExanJU
03-30-2004, 11:49 AM
Hi there, Cartesius,

I see you've made quiet a good job with thouse fingers of yours..

It's just that I think you should take a notice of some parts which connect fingers with mechanics... It just that I think it will be kinda difficult for him to work on the eyes of his patients.. Meening that some parts may interfare with the operation process.. For example the syringe is very with its nidle is thery long and it could be quiet an obsticle during the work...

Maybe you shoud try to make so the Doc could assemble and dissassemble when he doen't need it.. somthing like rolling it bacwards... then the work should be more enjoyble.. You know what I meen :twisted:

But still You said in the begining that those who worked on the eyes on simple people couldn't afford them self those expensive tools.. So it's could just be like a suggestion.. :rolleyes:

Anyways... Great work up until now... Keep it up :thumbsup:
p.s. sorry for my bad english

ExanJU

Cartesius
03-30-2004, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by ExanJU
Hi there, Cartesius

Hi there, ExanJU!

I think you are absolutely right, the length of that syringe has been bugging me as well. All the other instruments are moveable and can be folded away so they aren't interfering with the operation but the syringe is solid. On the other hand all instruments can be attached and removed as needed, including the syringe, so if it gets in the way during an operation he can just remove it (unlocking it from the finger and unscrewing the fluid filled tube on the top). I'll leave it alone for now but I'll keep your alert in mind when it comes to assemble the scene more completely, so thanks for pointing it out!

Cheers!

/Anders

PS. Your English is perfectly fine, so don't worry about it :) DS.

flyingP
03-30-2004, 03:32 PM
just a thought but couldn't you come up with a seringe that can bend?

painkiller
03-30-2004, 04:26 PM
i'am just hoping that he will not close his hand to fist .....
that will be un-cool .... :D

soapy
03-30-2004, 05:45 PM
Good thing he isnt in the army, those snap saluts could get painful... Doh,
Joking aside the gear is coming along really nicely Anders.

turner
03-31-2004, 10:25 AM
I think the hand modelling is coming along very well. The head and shoulder close up shot should look excellent when finished.

Cartesius
03-31-2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by flyingP
just a thought but couldn't you come up with a seringe that can bend?

Here's what I'm thinking: bending the syringe will be difficult but what about a retractable/removable needle? It's the long needle that's causing the trouble but if that somehow could be made to retract either into the tube or lifted above it, that would solve a lot of issues. I'll see what I can come up with.

Originally posted by painkiller
i'am just hoping that he will not close his hand to fist .....
that will be un-cool .... :D

Very un-cool :)

Originally posted by soapy
Good thing he isnt in the army, those snap saluts could get painful... Doh,
Joking aside the gear is coming along really nicely Anders.

At least he would have lots of nice scars along his forehead :) And thanks!

Originally posted by turner
I think the hand modelling is coming along very well. The head and shoulder close up shot should look excellent when finished.

Thank you! I just hope I can pull it of as best as I can but there's still plenty of time left (or so it seems now).

Update: Finally came up with a construction for the retractors that will work with the thumb. More to come.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/retract.jpg

Peter C.
03-31-2004, 10:22 PM
Wonderful progress Anders! Quite a puzzle you have there, and its excellent to see such effort in the smallest of mechanical details. BTW, have you considered a drill? Lots of ocular bone to perforate, eny eyefluid to drain.

Lycka till!!!

Cartesius
03-31-2004, 11:27 PM
Tackar, Peter! A drill might be something to consider for the pinky, now that you mention it, as I still don't know what instrument he should have there. Not a bad idea :)

/Anders

sad
03-31-2004, 11:53 PM
hehe:thumbsup: clean modelling!

Cartesius
04-01-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by sad
hehe:thumbsup: clean modelling!

Thank you!

Update: The retractors are coming along in a steady pace. I still have to figure out what kind of "teeth" or grip it should have (to replace the discs), and there are some wires that needs to be drawn.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/retract2.jpg

JamesMK
04-01-2004, 08:38 PM
Very neat mechanism - almost like it was built by a watchmaker. Cool indeedy!

Virtuoso
04-01-2004, 08:39 PM
I think I can appreaciate the smallest most intricate details as much as anyone.I am a big fan of in depth details.It's very nice to follow and a get a front row seat close-up.I'll be looking for more as you progress Cartesius...........Nice job thus far.:thumbsup: :beer:

Cartesius
04-01-2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by JamesMK
Very neat mechanism - almost like it was built by a watchmaker. Cool indeedy!

Thanks! I had a hard time figuring it out but a catalogue of medical instruments gave the impetus for it.

I am a big fan of in depth details.

So am I. :thumbsup:

Update: Wires are in place. Now for the teeth.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/retract3.jpg

Detail:
http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/retract3a.jpg

mwa
04-01-2004, 09:32 PM
Love all your details, great work so far!!:thumbsup:

Cartesius
04-01-2004, 10:11 PM
Hejsan Magnus, kul att se dig här!

Update: (Many updates tonight...) I've added gripping teeth for it -- what do you think?

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/retract4.jpg

Peter C.
04-01-2004, 11:44 PM
Perfect retractor, very complex and mean looking! :thumbsup:

jddog
04-02-2004, 07:00 AM
A M A Z I N G ... for now that's all...

ODoul
04-02-2004, 07:06 AM
That really is pretty cool Anders. I can see that you have a vision here.

flyingP
04-02-2004, 07:25 AM
Ohhh yes, like the gripping teeth. Actually the whole design is very well thought out.
:thumbsup:

Cartesius
04-02-2004, 07:12 PM
Thanks people! I actually spend some time thinking about the design on this one :)

Update: The retractors has become pliers! And they are in place so now it's time for the pinky. I think I will try Peter's idea about a drill to start with.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/pliersinplace.jpg

soapy
04-02-2004, 08:42 PM
Drill sounds good, or maybe a mini torch? Good for cauterizing wounds, searing the flesh of torturees and of course lighting cigars! Plus a pilot flame might look cool?

jddog
04-03-2004, 07:24 AM
:eek: really cool...
jdd

number9
04-03-2004, 08:06 PM
I like the shadow of the hand

Looks like a cover from a Splatter movie from the eighties.:D

Btw great concept and modeling!

Cartesius
04-03-2004, 10:51 PM
Howdy folks!

Well, I started modeling a drill but I kept running into annoying snags, most of them due to the fact that most drillbits are too long and stiff to do much with. I then started doodling with soapy's suggestion about a mini torch of some sorts and the doodling turned into a serious project. I'm attaching the result below.

It's a mini torch he can rotate in almost any direction and also bend if needed. The two tubes will probably be connected to his arm somehow. I have an idea about these two tubes plus the green one from the syringe being plugged into outlets on his lower arm, which would of course indicate that he has tubes with some very hazardous fluids runing around inside his body :) I will figure out where the wires controling the movements should go tomorrow.

Let me know what you think!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/flame.jpg

soapy
04-04-2004, 03:22 AM
Brilliant idea! er ah, well modeling. ;)

Peter C.
04-04-2004, 09:16 PM
Perfect.....a wonderful additional tool. Keep em coming!

JamesMK
04-04-2004, 09:21 PM
It's really shaping up to become the swiss army knife from hell.

In fact, this will from now on be known as the swedish army knife.

Aye.

Cartesius
04-04-2004, 10:53 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1081115609_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1081115609_large.jpg)

@soapy: Yep, brilliant idea. :thumbsup:

@Peter C: Thanks, I hope this instrument can work with the others and that it doesn't look too much out of place!

@JamesMK: The Swedish army knife? Sure, why not -- maybe I can sell the idea to Bofors or something. :)

Update:
All the instruments are now in place. I've replaced to lower part of the pliers with the same base as the torch since I figured that to be an instrument where movement in all directions would come in handy as well. ("Come in handy" -- you get it? come in handy! ahahaha! oh boy, I really should be going to bed...) I've also removed the wires from the pliers, there wasn't room for them with the new base.

/Anders

ODoul
04-05-2004, 04:15 AM
Lookin pretty wicked, Anders.

rattlesnake
04-05-2004, 04:20 AM
hey, i see a lot of detail on your work and a very creative concept, think youre doing a nice work, i specially love the flame thrower , looks amazing, great job, keep that way man, ill follow this , i just cant miss your progress :thumbsup:

ParadiseFlyBird
04-05-2004, 07:31 AM
Cartesius... all i can say i wow man ..your enrty is lookin sweet.sweet eye candy...mmmm :) and you're models look really clean...and the edges of some of the tool have some really nice highlights.... love ya work man.... keep it up .cant wait to see more...

Atwooki
04-05-2004, 09:44 AM
Very Handy (duh)
Serously useful hand, Cartesius; just love the liitle torch - it's nice to see that it's able to angle itself well into all nooks and crannies, also. Very useful device.
Might be good to see a 'spares' toolkit somewhere - perhaps an elevating drawer in the side of his hand, or the like? Just a thought... :shrug: Maybe some 'burns', where the hand has inadvertently scorched itself in the past also :D

Nice one :)

Atwooki

Cartesius
04-05-2004, 11:24 AM
@3D_Explorer: Thank you!

@rattlesnake: Thanks, glad you like it!

@ParadiseFlyBird: Thanks! Almost every edge on every instrument has a bevel to catch the highlights. It adds to the polygoncount but also adds that extra touch of realism (although I'm not striving for photorealism with this one).

@Atwooki: Thank you! Yes, the little torch needs to able to bend in pretty hard angles sometimes.

I've been thinking of something along the line of a spare toolikt myself, actually. Or rather a spare instrumentkit. I have an idea about a tray somewhere in the scene with some variations of say the scalpel on it, together with a drill, a different saw and so on. The tray should resemble the trays you can see at a dentist, for example. It just an idea so far, though, but it could reinforce the notion of every instrument being removeable as needed.

Texturing wise I have some special plans for the torch. The general state of the instruments he's using should be pretty worn and torn. Fully functional but the stuff the private clinics would trash immediately. The torch generates a lot of intense heat but it isn't isolating it very well anymore, and as a result the whole instrument is very black and burned. This has of course affected the finger as well, so I'm planning on giving the skin area around the pinky some discoloration due to the heat (blisters, irritated skin and so on). Maybe a burn mark on his wrist as well. :)

Cheers!

/Anders

Peter C.
04-05-2004, 12:39 PM
For the spare tools, you could go "Dali" and have a drawer like extention tray coming out from his underarm?

mosconariz
04-06-2004, 08:00 AM
Great detail!:surprised , waiting for textures

Borro
04-06-2004, 08:05 AM
Simply enchanting modeling. I can't wait to see more:drool:

Cartesius
04-06-2004, 09:44 AM
@PeterC: Good idea, I'll keep the in mind!

@mosconariz: Thanks! I've started gathering references for the hand texture and will start painting in a week or so. I will probably model the rest of the body before I go all the way in BodyPaint, though.

@Borro: Just stay tuned. :)

/Anders

Tremoside
04-06-2004, 10:51 AM
OH, that autogen gas head!!!

nice details on mechanic, but they are better than the hand's
probably the insertion of mecha fingers is too direct...i mean, you cutted off original fingers and just put on the mechs.

good work man. go ahead!!! go a hand...:surprised

Cartesius
04-06-2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Tremoside
nice details on mechanic, but they are better than the hand's

Yes, you're right. When it came to the mechanical stuff I decided to model as much as possible, to get as much detailing as I could with actual geometry. The hand will get its detailing from textures. Hopefully it will all look better once I start BodyPainting. :)

probably the insertion of mecha fingers is too direct...i mean, you cutted off original fingers and just put on the mechs.

I had a hard time figuring out how to attach the instruments to the fingers and maybe my solution is too direct. Any suggestions?

Cheers!

/Anders

sad
04-06-2004, 11:46 AM
what about some kind of glove with slings for the fingers. the tools are above the hand and pulling the wire-slings activates the single tools so they move forward?!

Cartesius
04-06-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by sad
what about some kind of glove with slings for the fingers. the tools are above the hand and pulling the wire-slings activates the single tools so they move forward?!

Hmmmm... Intriguing idea. Might be hard to accomplish but very interesting.

/Anders

soapy
04-06-2004, 04:49 PM
If you go for the direct insert type thing that you have now I would make the flesh puff out a bit where the metal connects. Like scar tissue or swelling.

Cartesius
04-06-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by soapy
If you go for the direct insert type thing that you have now I would make the flesh puff out a bit where the metal connects. Like scar tissue or swelling.

Another good idea, and maybe more tempting as it wouldn't require so a profound change from the original concept. I'll give the fingers some swelling and post the result in a couple of hours!

/Anders

mosconariz
04-06-2004, 05:27 PM
You can add some wrinkles by pulling and pushing some points in the area in wich machine joints to flesh: Something like this:
http://moscoanimaciones.50megs.com/dedo.jpg

Cartesius
04-06-2004, 06:08 PM
Yes, I see what you mean, mosconariz. Adding some more "chaos" to that area would improve the whole concept. Right now I'm working on swelling it a bit (see image below) and if I can add some scars and/or wrinkles without messing up my polygons too much I will give it a try.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/puffyfinger.jpg

JamesMK
04-06-2004, 06:16 PM
The swelling looks promising. I even think you could exaggerate it a bit without loosing the realistic tough. Wrinkles as suggested by mosconariz would be great too.

Really looking forward to the texturing on this one! [that'll be a lot of BP I assume?]

Cartesius
04-06-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by JamesMK
Really looking forward to the texturing on this one! [that'll be a lot of BP I assume?]

Oh yes, a lot of BP! I usually do all my UV-editing in BP and export the wire-grid to Photoshop for the bulk of the texturing (still more comfortable with Photoshop). Then it's a lot of switching between BP and Photoshop to get the detailing right. Should be fun. :)

/Anders

soapy
04-06-2004, 07:46 PM
I think James is right, you could exagerate a bit more. You might want to pick one and puff it out a lot like the skin around a too tight girdle on a fat lady. As if that connection is not comfortable and is reacting? just a thought. looking great.

Haha, it just occurred to me it is pretty easy figuring out someone elses job and creating work, but it is a little tougher minding ones own project... ;-)

Cartesius
04-06-2004, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by soapy
Haha, it just occurred to me it is pretty easy figuring out someone elses job and creating work, but it is a little tougher minding ones own project... ;-)

I agree, it's always easier to see where other people's stuff could improve while you can sit for hours without getting anyway with your own projects. ;)

Update:
All fingers now have some swelling. I could increase it a tiny little bit but if I want much more I will need to start cutting the geometry rather severly. I'm also planning on reducing the size of the scalpel a bit, it feels like it's too large compared to the rest of the instrument.

Cheers!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/puffyfingers.jpg

ODoul
04-07-2004, 12:25 AM
I am so diggin this. Looking so sweet Anders.

BaronVonWink
04-07-2004, 04:18 AM
Holy mother of....

that is sick! I cant believe the intricate detail you have achieved-

:bowdown:

Cartesius
04-07-2004, 10:24 AM
@3D_Explorer: Thank you!

@BaronVonWink: The Baron is here! :thumbsup: Thanks for the comment, I just hope I can keep all the detailing and still end up with a manageable scene.

Update:
I don't have an image to show, but I've reduced the size of the scalpel slightly and also replaced the base with the same type as the flame and pliers have. Next on the schedule is texturing the hands and start building the head and body/clothing.

/Anders

Cartesius
04-07-2004, 11:27 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1081376826_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1081376826_large.jpg)

Started texturing the left hand tonight, the one holding the eye. It took me a couple of hours to edit the UV's and I'm still not certain I won't redo it during the weekend. The texture is a mix of photos (my own hand primarily) and painting. Hopefully I can have the whole hand with basic textures finished pretty soon (but I still don't know exactly how to hide the seams between the upper side of the hand and the lower).

/Anders

soapy
04-08-2004, 06:06 AM
Ah the joys of textures and bad seams...

So what is the scoop on using photos in the textures? I want to use photos in a couple of my textures too. I hope it is ok with the rules?

harnelbe
04-08-2004, 08:11 AM
:beer:
Cartesius
whaooow
i think i have miss something here!
:bounce:
Your modeling ! Your modeling very accurate ! lot of details, i have read all
the topic this morning, amazing.
The only crits i could do is about, the way
you connected the apparels on the hand,
like it have been said before, it could be a could thing to alter the skin relief where
the mechanisms are fixed, what i don't understand is why surgeon have cut his fingers to put thoses apparels, it could have been easier and unpainfull to only put a glove with nervs connector ?
:rolleyes:

soapy
You're right about the rules, all textures have to be done from scratch.
i can't refind this rule where they put it
lol

Cartesius
04-08-2004, 11:05 AM
@soapy: Seams are a pain but I will have a go at them tonight.

@harnelbe: Thanks, glad you like it so far! :thumbsup: The reason I decided to put the instruments where they are instead of using say a glove, is this little paragraph in the rules:

The mechanical parts have to be incorporated into the actual body – the machine needs to have become one with the flesh via some sort of procedure.

Since the instruments are wired directly to the surgeons neural system they will respond immediately to his needed actions, much like normal fingers do. The scene takes place in the year 2769 and gloves are a thing of the past -- the mechanical instruments are now truly in direct connection with the human body. :)

About photos: I've just looked through the rules and FAQ but couldn't find anything specific about photos being used as base for texturemaps. I've posted a question in the FAQ-thread so I'm awaiting a response.

My take on them: I decided to use photographic elements after reading Jari Saarinen's description of how he textured his winning entry in the Alienware challenge. He used photos to texture it, so I figured it was OK to use them here as well. (See On the Edge of Time (http://www.cgnetworks.com/story_custom.php?story_id=1981&page=) for the whole story.)

Creating a believeable texture from scratch is difficult since you have to be a very skilled 2D artist to pull it off. Using photographic elements is an accepted way to get realism. When you need a map of say a Coke label for a sodacan you don't sit down with Illustrator and Photoshop and paint one -- you scan it. The brick texture of a wall, same thing but you shoot it with a camera instead. How many can really paint rusty, flaking metal so it looks like the real thing? If you want realism you have to start with reality.

All photograpic elements I will use (if they are allowed, that is) will be taken by me specifically for this challenge (and heavily modified in Photoshop -- the hand texture I posted earlier will look very different once I get the base down, for example), so in a way they will be created from scratch.

If they are not allowed my geometry will look good but my texturing like... Well, crap. :) It's no big deal if they aren't, I will still use my photos as reference but it will take much longer to finish the scene.

Cheers!

/Anders

harnelbe
04-08-2004, 12:12 PM
Let's wait about the answer in the faq.

but:
Look at what have been written by Leigh
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130044
if your read it all, it's said:
The challenge is a work-in-progress challenge and everything must be made from scratch.
Everything... In bold

By the way your modeling skills are impressives.
I did not want to be unpleasant
i'm confused, if.it's the case.
keep it up ! dude!
:thumbsup:

Cartesius
04-08-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by harnelbe
i'm confused, if.it's the case.

I'm confused as well. :) Leigh also writes (in connection with your quote), that:

Entries found using previously made/commercially sold models or elements will be automatically disqualified.

The question is: is a photograph I shoot specifically for this challenge to be considered as a previously made or pre-fabricated element? I think we'll just have to wait and see what she answers.

I'm not reading your posts as unpleasant at all, this has been on my mind for some time now. As I said earlier, I decided to use photos as a starting point when I read the description of Jari's winning entry. If I remember correctly the whole Alienware challenge was to be made from scratch as well (same rules then as now). Photographs were obviously allowed since Jari used them but not pre-fabricated models.

I'll post as soon as I know for sure how the situation will be handled!

Oh, and thanks for your nice comments about my modeling, I really appreciate it! :thumbsup:

/Anders

harnelbe
04-08-2004, 01:14 PM
:beer:
you're welcome !

soapy
04-08-2004, 03:40 PM
I agree completely with you Anders, but I would hate to waste my time taking pictures if they just get disallowed. I thought I read somewhere something about photos, but I couldnt find it again. I want new rocks and a new floor but I dont see any reason to hand draw the maps..

leigh
04-08-2004, 09:23 PM
Hej Anders,

I answered this in the questions thread, but thought I'd post here anyway - of course you're welcome to use photographs as textures, as it is a perfectly legitimate way of texturing. Personally I prefer to paint my own textures (being a texturing artist by trade), since I find that fixing up photos for use as textures actually requires a lot more tedious work, but if that's how you want to work, then by all means go ahead :)

harnelbe
04-08-2004, 09:47 PM
Thanks Leigh for your answer.

Cartesius
04-08-2004, 10:04 PM
Thanks for answering, Leigh! :thumbsup:

/Anders

soapy
04-09-2004, 12:07 AM
Thats a relief to hear about the photos. Now I can make some new parts in my usual manner. Mostly I hand make my maps but for some things photos are better.

pigwater
04-09-2004, 01:03 AM
cartesius .. now i'm worried .. you got mad texturing skills as it is .. and now with photos your piece is gonna be xtra sweet ... all i can say

great concept you got ...and you've been pumping out quality to make it come alive .. this one is gonna kick some butt i think

Cartesius
04-09-2004, 10:21 AM
@soapy: I agree, sometimes photos are the best solution.

@pigwater: Thank you very much! :thumbsup:

/Anders

Cartesius
04-11-2004, 05:52 PM
OK, after three days of trying to edit the UV's and paint a descent texture map for his left hand I finally got this. It's not perfect and I still have to do some detailing but as a base I think it's good enough. The hardest part was hiding the seam where the palm texture met the top texture, but BodyPaint's Projection Painting really helped here, althou the seam is still noticeable in some places. I think I will have to fix that in post, though.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/basic_left.jpg

JamesMK
04-11-2004, 06:03 PM
That looks really good! The palm in particular, while the other side (there has to be a name for the top side of the hand, huh?) needs some more character. Neat colors for the nails too, a bit sickly in a suitable way. It's hard to say if the nails are a bit transparent now, since the background is black, but they should be anyway. - - - oh, I just realised that the nails won't be in the final image anyway, right? :D

Good job on the seam too. If projection painting doesn't cut it, you can always flat-project a texture from the sides with an alpha to make it fade out before it starts streaking over the top and palm (if that makes sense :) )

soapy
04-11-2004, 06:50 PM
yes James they call it the back of the hand or the dorsal side.

Cartesius
04-11-2004, 07:01 PM
I will post a proper reply in a couple of minutes but I'm a bit hyped right now. I just got mail from Ballistic Publishing -- I made Exposé 2!

/Anders

JamesMK
04-11-2004, 07:09 PM
Hey hey hey! Congrats on the Exposé inclusion! Wicked!

Oh, Soapy, 'dorsal' side it is then - thanks!

Cartesius
04-11-2004, 07:58 PM
Right, a bit more collected now.

@JamesMK: Thanks, it was quite a shock when I got the mail about Exposé 2, I can tell you that! I had nearly forgotten about it. I have just poured myself a glass of beer and will have a nice evening in front of "The Ring" on DVD to celebrate.

OK, back to the hand: I paid more attention to the palm because that will be more visible than the dorsal side (thanks soapy!) in the final render. The nails will probably not be very visible either but they were so easy so I did all five while I was at it.

Flat-projecting a texture never really occurred to me! Damnation, that would probably have solved quite a lot of issues I had. Oh well, there's always the right hand to continue practising on. :)

Cheers!

/Anders

Peter C.
04-12-2004, 08:20 PM
The texture looks great Anders, and from that angle, it does not show. Keep it up and :thumbsup: for making Exposé II

Cartesius
04-12-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Peter C.
The texture looks great Anders, and from that angle, it does not show. Keep it up and :thumbsup: for making Exposé II

Thanks Peter! :)

Update: I had a spur of creatitvity today and decided to retexture the hand. I had better textures to work with (not so pink) and I also wanted to try out James' suggestion and project a texture in BodyPaint to hide the seam. It worked like a charm, so James -- I owe you a beer! :beer: It's a bit fiddly to get the projected texture just right but I think the result is definitely worth it. So far I've only used the technique on the forefinger but the seam is almost invisible and if viewed from a distance I think I can get away with it. I've attached two screenshots of the new texture, one complete and one showing where the seam is.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/basic_left_new.jpg

JamesMK
04-13-2004, 12:02 AM
That looks even better now!

I'll have a Guinness please :D

I really should try to save up for BP some day, seems like quite a necessary app to have....

harnelbe
04-13-2004, 12:07 AM
Whoww !!Cartesius
Beautiful hands ! Very realistic !

Tremoside
04-13-2004, 12:49 AM
COOL texture mappin'! I lust for the next updates.

rattlesnake
04-13-2004, 01:23 AM
yeah, i think this texture is much better, nice work there, this is turning really great, and original :thumbsup:

mosconariz
04-13-2004, 05:48 AM
Great textures!

About the model, something is strange with the finger; I think it is too curved down: http://moscoanimaciones.50megs.com/dedo2.jpg

Sorry I didn't told you before, I didn't notice :wavey:

soapy
04-13-2004, 05:50 AM
Nice transition on the mapping, its going to be a good hand.

Cartesius
04-13-2004, 11:25 AM
@JamesMK: One virtual Guinness is served!

Yes, BodyPaint is truly amazing. I knew it would be good but not this good. Texturing something like this hand would have been extremely difficult without it. I still do most of my painting in Photoshop but UV-editing, projection painting and so on is all BP.

@harnelbe: Thank you!

@Tremoside: Thanks! Next update will hopefully be tonight as I will map the rest of the fingers when I get home from work.

@rattlesnake: Thank you, glad you're liking it!

@mosconariz: Thanks! About that curve -- it's intentional, believe it or not. The thing is that when I boned the hand and posed it, that area looked much to flat. So instead of solving it by changing the vertex maps or adding an extra bone I simply modified the geometry. Since the hand will be still I figured that was the easiest way to handle it (plus that using vertex maps and bones is absolutely new to me). So now it looks weird in the default position but OK posed (I hope!).

@soapy: Thank you!

/Anders

Aurety
04-13-2004, 11:36 AM
Too bad english to say how I love your WIP, Cartesius. Really nice to see you working that way ! Well just thanks... :blush: I wait for the update. :applause:

Cartesius
04-13-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Aurety
Too bad english to say how I love your WIP, Cartesius. Really nice to see you working that way ! Well just thanks... :blush: I wait for the update. :applause:

Thanks Aurety, glad you like it! And your English is perfectly understandable. :thumbsup:

/Anders

mosconariz
04-13-2004, 03:31 PM
Ok... Maybe that's why I didn't notice that finger deformation before :p

Cartesius
04-13-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by mosconariz
Ok... Maybe that's why I didn't notice that finger deformation before :p

LOL! Yes, that must be it. :p

Update: Ladies and gentleman, we have a hand! It's not done, I still need to add detailing but I will leave it for now. I will start unwrapping the right hand tomorrow and also start on the head.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/basic_left_new2.jpg

Cartesius
04-14-2004, 12:01 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1081897271_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1081897271_large.jpg)

Same image as above but submitted as a milestone.

/Anders

mosconariz
04-14-2004, 12:50 AM
This textures are just awesome!!! :eek:

harnelbe
04-14-2004, 12:50 AM
Great sensation of realism !
Mixed with your mechanics elements on the other hand, it will be amazing !

JamesMK
04-14-2004, 07:49 AM
Just have to say that those bruises and imperfections make it perfect! Great texture work!

Cartesius
04-14-2004, 01:20 PM
@mosconariz: Thank you!

@harnelbe: Thanks! My goal is to give the impression of real flesh meeting real metal, but there's still work to do. :)

@JamesMK: Thank you! The bruises are just a colour map multiplied over the base texture but it works pretty well.

/Anders

Abigor
04-14-2004, 05:17 PM
fantastic work on those hands. both the mechanical finger hand and the normal one! i love all the detail you'v put into the model. my only tiny criticism would b the fingernails seem a shade to long... but thats minor. perhaps thats the look your goin for. keep up the good work :)

Cartesius
04-14-2004, 05:44 PM
@Abigor: I did make the nails a bit longer than normal but I've reduced their length after your suggestion. It actually looks better now, so I will keep them short. Thanks! :thumbsup:

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/basic_left_new_nails.jpg

Cartesius
04-14-2004, 11:29 PM
I think I have figured out a way to connect the tubes to his arm. The empty space above the three intakes to the left is reserved for text, by the way. What do you think -- good or bad solution?

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/connecting_tubes.jpg

Peter C.
04-14-2004, 11:37 PM
That looks fantastic Anders. You'v come a long way already, and done a wonderful job. Love the hand details and that connector is perfect. I presume it is under the skin, so I'll ask if your going to make the skin thicker, perhaps uneven, giving it a dry, almost rotten look?

Lycka till!!! Ock berätta hur du modellera ådrorna :thumbsup:

Cartesius
04-14-2004, 11:51 PM
Hejsan Peter! Up late tonight? :) My plans for the connecting area is to make the skin look stretched and worn, maybe even a bit transparant in some areas, showing the underlying mechanics. An severe skin infection of some sorts is not ruled out either. :)

/Anders

PS. Ådrorna gjordes med hjälp av Mesh Surgerys Scalpel, förresten -- bara att markera och skära, och sedan fixa till alla trianglar så gott det gick. DS

JamesMK
04-15-2004, 12:09 AM
Definitely a good solution - and I second Peter's suggestion to mess the skin up a bit around the affected area.

Looks ace!

soapy
04-15-2004, 02:46 AM
Hey those bruises are really nice for what sounds like not too much work. I like the plug in interface for the hoses also. Why not have him wear a backpack with tanks sticking up, like a diver's, that hold the fluids? would that show in the image? just a thought.

rattlesnake
04-15-2004, 03:26 AM
woa !!, that last render looks amazing , your job is coming incredible together!:eek: , love detail, nice job

Cartesius
04-15-2004, 10:20 AM
@JamesMK: Thanks, and I probably will mess it up a bit. Afer all, those wires can contain anything from acid to distilled water and a couple years worth of plugging and unplugging should leave its mark, right?

@soapy: Thanks soapy! The hardest part of the hand texture was to get rid of the seems. The bruises, as I said, only took a couple of minutes. A backpack of some sorts is a good idea but I don't think it will be visible in the final scene.

@rattlesnake: Thank you!

/Anders

adr
04-15-2004, 11:10 AM
hi man the last update was awesome the textures are great congrats and keep updating :beer:

if you can, visit my thread and give me some advice to improved my project :thumbsup:

painkiller
04-15-2004, 04:12 PM
wow !!! nice !!!!
like alot the hand texture and the blue flame !
waiting for the mechanic hand texture !

:cool:

jddog
04-15-2004, 05:50 PM
stunning work Anders :eek:

congrats :buttrock:

jdd

mwa
04-15-2004, 06:32 PM
Beutifull work so far and I think your connection area works like a charm=) Been a real joy to follow your work so far!

subagio
04-15-2004, 06:38 PM
About the wrist jacks. They're practical, but I would imagine that it would all look a bit creepier if you go with individual exit points from the arm, more excuse for bunching up skin and all that jazz.

From a psyche point of view, it's probably higher on the ick factor as well if they come from under the wrist, rather at the top? More arterial.

Cartesius
04-15-2004, 07:50 PM
@adr: Thanks! New update below.

@painkiller: Thank you! I will start unwrapping the handmesh as soon as I can stop adding details to it. :)

@jddog: Thank you!

@mwa: Tackar!

@subagio: I played around with individual sockets to begin with but abandoned the idea for various reasons. I agree, it would look creepier, though.

Connecting the tubes and wires under the wrist? Hmmm... Haven't really thought about that. Most of the wires starts on the top of the instruments so it might look a bit awkward to have them curl round and under the wrist. But it's a good idea and I will give it some thought, thanks!

Update:
Added a rip in the skin and placed some screws to hold the skin in place. I'm thinking lacerated edges and visible muscle tissue here. What do you think?

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/lasc_edges.jpg

JamesMK
04-15-2004, 07:53 PM
That skin rip is a great addition - keep doing that stuff!

rajdeep
04-15-2004, 07:53 PM
Wow very clean ....ummm... good work

mwa
04-15-2004, 08:11 PM
Yes, agree with James great addition with the rip and also the screws holding the skin in place, maybe the skin between the screws could be pulled up a bit so it really looks like the skin holds in place by them.

AsKham
04-16-2004, 12:28 AM
Hi there,

Your modeling is very good, very clean and tidy and I specially liked the way the connectors are plugged, but I'm not sure if I fully liked the concept. Anyways, keep it going and lets see how the final image comes up.

Good luck,

Rodrigo
please visit my Thread at: http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=137566

mosconariz
04-16-2004, 12:30 AM
In your place I would put something at the end of the rip, so that it doesn't tear any more :rolleyes:

JamesMK
04-16-2004, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by mwa
maybe the skin between the screws could be pulled up a bit so it really looks like the skin holds in place by them.
Aye. Do that too! Some stretching never hurts!

Cartesius
04-16-2004, 01:12 PM
@JamesMK: More of this stuff is coming!

@rajdeep: Thank you!

@mwa: Good idea, I'll see how much geometry I have to play with, otherwise I'll do it with bumps.

@AskHam: Thank you! The concept isn't in everyone's taste but diversity is never wrong, you know. :)

@Mosconariz: Good idea, will implement something tonight!

@JamesMK again: I was under the impression that stretching does hurt! :beer:

/Anders

JamesMK
04-16-2004, 01:20 PM
Damn... good point....

cleverpants.... :D

Cartesius
04-16-2004, 02:24 PM
Yep, just call me Mr Cleverpants! Or as Ash says in Evil Dead III: The Army of Darkness: "Well, hello Mr Fancy Pants!". :p

/Anders

ODoul
04-16-2004, 04:26 PM
Just a note to let you know I am still following your thread. Looking top knotch!

Cartesius
04-16-2004, 06:38 PM
Nice to know you're still around, 3D_E!

Update:
I followed mwa's idea and raised the skin tissue slightly between the screws, and also added mosconariz's "rip stopper". Thanks guys! :thumbsup:

I think I will consider the geometrical changes to be complete with this (will tighten up the folds a bit around the screws, though). I will bring the hand into BP in about 20 minutes to start the texturing. But first a cup of coffee!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/lasc_edges2.jpg

JamesMK
04-16-2004, 06:44 PM
Muy neato tweaks and fixes!

Anxious to get started on the old texturing, eh? :D

Cartesius
04-16-2004, 06:59 PM
Gracias, senor Wabbit!

Yes, I'm quite eager to start texturing, mainly because I want to try out a new mapping technique, but also because I yesterday realized that there's so much left to do -- a head (with wires and cables), a lens for the eye, a ripped out "real" eye, clothes (to bridge the hands and the head) textures for all this, lighting (which I really suck at) and so on. Will probably have to work 24/7 the last two weeks. :D

/Anders

mosconariz
04-16-2004, 07:49 PM
I like it, love my stopper :p hehehe :wip:

painkiller
04-16-2004, 08:52 PM
so match ditails ... dont forget to work on the rest of the body !!!
great job !!

:thumbsup:

flyingP
04-16-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Cartesius
lighting (which I really suck at)

From what I have seen of your work you could have fooled me, you are a perfectionist Anders and most annoying is that you often seem to get pretty damn close to perfection :D
I am really enjoying watching this progress. :applause:

Cartesius
04-16-2004, 11:21 PM
@mosconariz: Thank you and thanks once again for the idea!

@painkiller: Thanks! The rest of the body will mainly be clothes as he will be wearing some sort of shirt or scrubs and maybe an apron (a very bloody apron, of course!).

@flyingP: Thank you! :thumbsup: My successful lighting rigs so far are mainly due to chance and pure luck. I'm starting to get the hang of it but lighting is so hard to get right.

Update:
The right hand is now uwrapped and ready for painting. I've attached a screen of the UV layout for the left hand, which is already textured, and the right hand. As you can see I opted for a completely different approach this time. The reason is that I couldn't get the "swelled" fingers to actually fit very well next to each other when using traditional flat mapping, the UV's were constantly overlapping. What I opted to do instead was to give each finger a cylindrical mapping and the rest ordinary flat mapping. I also had to separate the area housing the connectors on his wrist. My hope is that all this will be tied together using Projection Painting, so wish me luck. :)

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/UV-templates.gif

JamesMK
04-16-2004, 11:50 PM
That looks like a nice unwrap to me... I'll be forced to agree about your tendency towards perfectionism as well :D And lighting - yeah, that can indeed be tricky sometimes... but it also pays off so very nicely... And besides, you will surely not be the only one working all-nighters towards the end ;) o_O

mosconariz
04-17-2004, 12:50 AM
Thank you and thanks once again for the idea!

Thank to me??
Thank U for givin' us such a delightful thread! :beer:

soapy
04-17-2004, 01:38 AM
That render that shows the tube inset section on the arm looks like a spy secret weapon. Like maybe it shoots darts or flechettes. heheh anyways the project is coming along very nicely.

Cartesius
04-17-2004, 02:09 AM
@JamesMK: OK, I confess -- I can be a perfectionist from time to time. :)

@mosconariz: :beer:

@soapy: LOL, you're right, it actually does look like some sort of miniature weapon!

Update:
It's 03.04 in the morning and I'm going to bed. I've started texturing the hand and the upper part is basically done. Details/blemishes/scars will of course be added but first I need to lay down the base texture. Tomorrow I will do the palm and then the individual fingers (or what's left of them anyway).

Cheers!

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/r_hand_tex1.jpg

Ric535
04-17-2004, 04:46 AM
well hello Anders - looking very nice so far, i might pop in from time to time as now i have officially entered - better late than never eh! :beer:

Cartesius
04-18-2004, 07:15 PM
Hey Ric, drop by when you're in the neighbourhood! :)

Update:
The base colour texture for the right hand is finished and it's time to start detailing. There are still some visible seems along the fingers but I plan to cover these with bruises and other gory stuff. The inset shows the details in progress and although that particular are isn't finished yet, it gives an idea of how it's going to look like.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/right_hand_tex3.jpg

JamesMK
04-18-2004, 07:26 PM
Oh, the area around the ripped skin looks excellent - bad infection coming up there I guess. Give the guy some antibiotics for Pete's sake! :bounce:

painkiller
04-18-2004, 07:57 PM
wow !!! it's looks so real !! i can almost feel it on my hand ...:surprised

great job !!! :thumbsup:

Ric535
04-18-2004, 08:13 PM
ouch! heh heh - excellant stuff!

Peter C.
04-18-2004, 11:09 PM
Looking realy good Anders :applause:

Thow, I think the skin looks still a bit thin around the connectors. Skin is quite thick unless processed, and seeing a layer of flesh would make it even more scary.

But excellent work non the less :thumbsup:

Cartesius
04-18-2004, 11:20 PM
@JamesMK: Thank you, gangsta wabbit! And I tell you, that infection is nothing compared to what I have planned for his fingers. :)

@painkiller: Thanks, glad you like it!

@Ric_535: Ouch indeed. :)

@Peter C.: Thank you, and I agree about the skin maybe beeing too thin. Unfortunately I've come to far with the UV-map to remedy it so I will have to accept it as is now. Maybe I can tweak the polys slightly to get the rim thicker but I'm not sure how it will look.

Another update is on the way!

/Anders

Cartesius
04-19-2004, 12:45 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1082331907_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/5/2270/2270_1082331907_large.jpg)

Started detailing the right hand. Slowly working my way down to the fingers.

/Anders

soapy
04-19-2004, 01:17 AM
Well his hands are starting to look suitably disgusting. heheh.

Tremoside
04-19-2004, 01:24 AM
In agree with soapy, It's a high quality horror:love:

adr
04-19-2004, 01:27 AM
Very impressive texture work , that trace of cigarrete in the skin is great . Congrats :thumbsup:


Waiting for more updates :buttrock:

mosconariz
04-19-2004, 01:33 AM
:buttrock: :argh: Ouch! I can't have any crit to such a good work.

Pleribus
04-19-2004, 03:49 AM
You should consider leaving the connectors white... it has a very iPod feel to it right now. It's like I can grab my headphones, and jack it in to listen to my favourite tunes ;)

Wonder if apple has considered the iMplant yet?

Jokes asside, that is some seriously awesome texturing... do you use photographs as a source?
The scars are particularly nice (gross)

EDIT: I should take the time and read through the whole post... missed page 10 with your techniques ;)

Versiden
04-19-2004, 07:51 AM
those screws on the skin look really painful.. ouch

nice work

I like the red blister looking wound too..sweet texturing.

jddog
04-19-2004, 08:14 AM
:argh: hooo... excellent (but argh) work Anders ! wonderful textures work.

jdd

harnelbe
04-19-2004, 08:22 AM
:thumbsup:
i like a lot your attention to details and texturing, the only thing which is disturbing me a little for the moment is the way you have follow to fixe with screw the flesh and the connector box, i would have seen a different type of screw, more technical ones. like those ones (http://www.corsemeccanica.com/Ducati%20inspection%20cover%20screw.jpg)
like those used in automobile parts (http://members.roadfly.com/triplex5/7.JPG)
You could add polymer around the screw to avoid the skin to be teated. Something like eyelet or reinforcement rings .
By the way impressive texturing !

flyingP
04-19-2004, 08:37 AM
ahhhhh!!!! that does not look healthy, horrible.... I LOVE IT. Fantastic texturing as usual Anders :applause:

Cartesius
04-19-2004, 08:50 AM
@soapy: They way it should look, hehehe!

@Tremoside: "High quality horror" -- I like that. :)

@adr: Thank you!

@mosconariz: Thanks!

@Pleribus: LOL! Yeah, maybe I should leave them white to keep that iPoddy-feeling!

Yes, I mainly use photographs for texturing. About 80% of the hand texture is my own hand and the rest from various other photograps (the knuckles are from a friend's hand, the blisters on the palm (not visible in the image above) are from another photograph, and so on). The infection and the wounds are from medical databases online (do you have any idea how sickening it is to browse through 100's of images of gangrene on a Sunday eveing?).

@Versiden: Thank you! His fingers will be in even worse condition once I get to them. :)

@jddog: Thanks Julien!

@harnelbe: Good idea about the screwheads, harnelbe! You're right, it would look better with more technical looking screws and I will replace the old ones this evening, together with some sort of eyelets.

@flyingP: Thank you! I have a vision of his hand as not being very healthy all. All that wiring and tubing and mechanics going both inside and on the hand cannot be healthy. :)

/Anders

Cartesius
04-19-2004, 03:48 PM
Screwheads updated.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/tech_screwh.jpg

JamesMK
04-19-2004, 06:29 PM
Oh lordie... that's what I call attention to detail... :applause:

number9
04-19-2004, 07:12 PM
Oh, I love this thread. Really nice to see your progression and I like that you update it frequently.

Cartesius
04-19-2004, 10:51 PM
@JamesMK: It's all in the details, baby, all in the details!

@Say so long: Thanks, I plan to update frequently till the bitter end!

Update:
Started detailing the fingers. I plan to give the pinky a very dark almost scarred surface and the rest of the fingers will have skin very much like the image below.

/Anders

http://www.cartesiuscreations.com/wips/machineflesh/finger_inf.jpg

ODoul
04-19-2004, 11:26 PM
This is really wicked cool, Anders, so, how much of this creature are you planning to do?

Peter C.
04-19-2004, 11:29 PM
More amazing my the minute Anders :applause:

That cigarett burn looks perfect, and all the details are great. :thumbsup:

Ravendsg
04-19-2004, 11:58 PM
amazing stuffs u got there man! The details are great!! :buttrock:

Cartesius
04-20-2004, 08:54 AM
@3D_Explorer: Thank you! My plans for the surgeon is to have two hands and a head. His body will be covered by clothing of some sort, maybe a shirt or something like a doctor's coat. I just hope I can pull it all together within the timeframe!

@Peter C.: Thanks!

@Ravendsg: Thank you!

/Anders

JamesMK
04-20-2004, 08:56 AM
Ah, saaweet precision.... :beer:

In fact - you could try to make a more visible edge on the skin some way... I guess your UV's are locked and set by now, so you wouldn't want to tweak the mesh of course.... hmm... It's all looking friggin great anyways!

Cartesius
04-20-2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by JamesMK
In fact - you could try to make a more visible edge on the skin some way

Thank you, James! Could you elaborate a bit about what you mean with a more visible edge? Sounds interesting. :) The UV's are locked, yes, but minor tweaks are usually pretty simple to do.

/Anders

Squibbit
04-20-2004, 09:31 AM
ouch , those look bad , some of the earlier pics
made the hand look a bit too dead to me , dunno
if that was your intention

JamesMK
04-20-2004, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Cartesius
Could you elaborate a bit about what you mean with a more visible edge? Sounds interesting. :)

Hmm.... I'll try my best::

Considering that the skin has a certain thickness.... and on a sharp cut like that, where the tools are attached, I would expect the skin to sort of come off the subdermal layers a bit... like a bit flaky somehow, yet not dry, perhaps the edge in some areas will cover a portion of the "attacher ring", sort of hanging loose.... uh... I'm not sure if that made anything more clear tho :)

Cartesius
04-20-2004, 10:55 AM
@Squibbit: My intention is that in the end the hand should look more alive. I hope it will look like that once I get the rest of the body in place.

@JamesMK: OK... I think I get it, but it might require some heavy gemometric cutting. Maybe I can fix it by using simple polygons with some clever alpha mapping? I'll see what I can do!

/Anders

rattlesnake
04-20-2004, 11:03 AM
hey, i was a littl busy and didnt visit, but this is great, i hope i can reach that level on my textures, you just rock all details are very well done, hope u can match the deadline, cos this is an awesome entry! good luck!:wip: :buttrock:

Cartesius
04-20-2004, 11:09 AM
Tell me about it, there are so many good threads to follow, your own entry to work on and that annoying Real Life (TM) that you can't keep up with it all. Believe me, I know all about it. :)

Yes, I do hope I can finish it in time. I need to start working on the head as soon as possible because that's gonna need some serious input from you guys and I want to make it as good as I can!

/Anders

JamesMK
04-20-2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Cartesius
Maybe I can fix it by using simple polygons with some clever alpha mapping?
Like I usually say: the day you can't fix something with some clever alpha mapping will be a sad day indeed for mankind :beer:

DShadow
04-20-2004, 12:27 PM
I just entered this contest and have browesd through the other entries(no not all) and wow there are some great work being created here. I think your Idea is really cool and your model and texture are top!. Great work indeed keep it up.

Take a look at my work too if you want :rolleyes:
not too much work done though (keeping a more simple aproach because I don't have that much time to spend
)
My Entry (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1283253#post1283253)

JamesMK
04-20-2004, 12:32 PM
DShadow, eh? Ah, another swede enters the stage... have to check that out for sure..... don't tell the others about the plan about world domination whatever you do....

flyingP
04-20-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by JamesMK
don't tell the others about the plan about world domination whatever you do....

I could believe it :rolleyes: