Spy WiP

[Quizboy]

of course you can make this in 3D. You can make anything in 3D.

good luck!

[YerEvilTwin]

EDITED BY MODERATOR

strike #1

YerEvilTwin...check yourself before you wreck yourself...

honest critiques are widely accepted, but please post yours with more tact in the future...a professional attitude is well respected in the industry, so please post with respect towards your fellow forum members...do not blacklist yourself over what should have been a simple post, it is not worth it...

[JDinges]

Everyone needs to start somewhere. My advice is to keep on drawing, get an anatomy book or 2 and practice practice practice.

If you're new to modeling then definitely start with something simpler. check out some tutorials and go from there. Jumping into a semi-complex character like that is just going to bum you out. It's tough stuff so you need to start easy.

Keep on keepin on.

[Ragnorak]

* Well, i think its pretty appauling; not the drawing, the fact that it's drawn or lined paper, or that the anatomy isn't "perfect"; what im upset about and even ANGRY about is YerEvilTwin. I don't understand how "putting down" Jimmy_Dublo let alone anyone is going to HELP them get better. This is the WIP/Critiques: Game Art Design forum. If your not going to post something helpful to the thread started then you shouldn't post anything at all. Also you should have read Jimmy's post before you decided to respond YerEvilTwin because he clearly stated that this was first of all a SKETCH, before he said that he said he was a newbie and last, definately not least, in fact the most important thing he said was " This is my first thing I will be posting on CG-talk." Because of your reply the cg community, CGTalk specificly, could of lost a member. Im done ranting about it but YerEvilTwin you should not be posting on this forum if your going to discourage people from their hobby/career/whatever butyou should encourage them.*


I think the drawing would fit perfectly into the 3d world and it could be done using 3d Studio max or any other 3d program available (Gmax, Maya, Milkshape, etc). You should however make it easier on yourself to transfer into 3d by making a front and side view. personally i would just draw the character without the guns and then just draw the guns seperately. Finally i would reread Darkax's post because what he had to say was right on the money.

p.s. no matter what anyone says dont get discouraged and just keep working at it and you'll end up fine if not awesome.

[Jimmy_Dublo]

Thanks for sticking up for me Ragnarok. Yeah i'm not that great a drawer, but I will be practising alot. Yes this was just a sketch and i could draw him again better.

Yes I know it was stupid to do it on lined paper ahhahahahaa.
I cant believe I did that either :O

Yeah I will be starting with more simpler stuff anyway as, I am doing a course and they will be teaching me how to do this kind of stuff from start to end.

I really Appreciate what you guys have told me.

Ill try to produce some nicer artwork to post.

Cheers.

[SecretAgent]

>> Hey Jimmy! I have no problem what-so-ever that you did your sketch on lined paper, who cares what medium you draw on as long as your into what you do (hell, Spielberg and Lucas have been known to sratch out their brilliant ideas on napkins, heh).

I agree w/Ragnorak, if you want to translate this character into 3D you should create a character "turn around" model sheet that consists of at least a front and side view, preferably and action or 3/4 view pose as well (this is roughly how most characters start out for games and even film). That should give you a good basis to start the 3D modeling once you get to that stage. Feel free to ask any more questions and good luck with the classes.

>> YerEvilTwin: Man, I am sorely dissappointed in your comments Evil - how can you slam a fellow CGTalker like that?! You know, everybody has to start somewhere and a little constructive criticism goes a long way vs your rude comments which didn't help. I sure hope you were drunk or something when you posted those comments because I sure lost my respect for you and your work.

[Matt]

My friend pointed out an interesting opinion...

He just said, "Columbine."

[Zycho]

Hi Jimmy_dublo, and welcome to CGTalk.
As it has been said earlier, you might wanna start out with something smaller, and try to master in the basic tools in MAX. I'm a bit of a newbie myself, but I find it helpful to just sit and make some fast, small items out the top of my head. Just create a box, give an edit mesh modifier (You'll quicly learn what that is), and start moving the verticies around. Pretty soon you'll have developed you own workflow, and from thereon you just add tools and functions to your "know" list.
I never scetch out before I start a projekt... I just suck too much at drawing... So don't think that you have to scetch before you start on a project!!
I can also recommend looking at tutorials on the net (You don't have to spend a fortune on books. Start by creating something simple, and see if you like what you did). If you want some books, can recommend "Teach yourself MAX in 24 hours" (the only one I've got, and it helped me in the beginning). Lynda has also made a 2 CD pack of video footage, introducing MAX, and they are REALLY good!!


To YerEvilTwin: You are a dimwit!! Like Ragnorak and Eric22 nicely pointed out, you shouldn't be posting inhere if you haven't got anything remotely interesting or costructive to say!! It people like you who makes all us newbies doubt in ourselves, and maybe even give up CG before we have even started. I have a bunch of projects (3dS MAX) that I would like to get som comments on, but I'm not posting them because ****holes like could have a fieldday about it!!

[Littleberu]

Originally posted by YerEvilTwin
Yes you can make that in 3D, but it looks like crap in 2d so when you make it in 3d it will look like MAX took a polygon dump. Sorry, but it is the truth. I'm not going to say you can't post stuff like that on a professional forum but you shouldn't. I can't critique the drawing because of it looks like a 5th grader drew it. I'm sorry again for my honesty.

You better be sorry. This was so pretentious.

[AdamAtomic]

YerEvilTwin - it's already been said. Your post was worthless. Congrats.

Zycho - those are all great suggestions! Its good to see that some people on the board are willing to help out beginners. I will see if I can add any advice...

Jimmy - Zycho's advice is excellent. However, while ideally we would all sit down and learn studio max front to back before we started work on a model, in real life it doesn't always work out like that. The first thing that I ever tried to model in 3D was a complete character model, not unlike the one that you've drawn here. It goes without saying that it turned out REALLY bad. However, I learned a TON! Definitely more than I would have learned just pulling some verts. My best advice for you, as far as modeling goes, is to go ahead and try to model the character that you've drawn there. However, it is OK (perhaps even required!) for it to turn out really bad.

Now, there ARE some people on the forums here who actually did make an absolutely kickass model the first time they sat down to use a modeling program, but you'll often find that before going digital they were accomplished traditional artists (clay, 2d, whatever). A 3D Modeler is just a tool; it can only do what you tell it to.

Toward that end, if you want to learn how to make GOOD 3D models of characters, you must first learn how to make good characters! This is a looooong process. I've been working at it ever since high school (5-6 years ago) and I'm still learning new things every day (usually LOTS of new things). There are lots of great art sites out there on the net (polykarbon is a great place to start at, Patrick's tutorials are fun, quick, and usually based on more traditional art lessons), and there are a few indispensable and cheap books that you can get - my fav is Burne Hogarth's Dynamic Anatomy - its my bible!!! Also, used book stores are literal treasure troves of reference material - if you want to draw some guns, go pick up a $2.50 gun book from your local used bookstore! It's the best way that I've found to get good, hands-on references for the things that I want to draw.

I hope that this was helpful! The most important thing is realizing in the back of your mind that your model will not turn out SUPER AMAZING AWESOME right away; modeling and design is a discipline that takes even the most gifted students decades to "master." That said, I say go ahead and jump into trying to model this character - I think its the best way to learn! Finally, having good references and a GREAT work ethic will go a long way! Best of luck in your journey!

[Cyborg Corp.]

Originally posted by YerEvilTwin
Yes you can make that in 3D, but it looks like crap in 2d so when you make it in 3d it will look like MAX took a polygon dump. Sorry, but it is the truth. I'm not going to say you can't post stuff like that on a professional forum but you shouldn't. I can't critique the drawing because of it looks like a 5th grader drew it. I'm sorry again for my honesty.

You know, Ive been slowly learning 3D and lots of people have been telling me to learn how to draw. So I tried to draw a character and was planning on posting him here so I could prepare to bring him into 3d, but your post totally changed my mind. You totally discouraged me and probably many other hopefull future CGers.

[Jimmy_Dublo]

Once again thanks alot to everyone giving me tips.

Yeah i have to go out and buy some art books n such. These would really be benefitial to my drawing.

Thanks.

[BiTMAP]

Cyborg Corp. -
Trust me, POST IT, even if it DOES suck and people rip you to shreds, i've had it done to me countless times. At first I even QUIT! Then i thought about it, was it really something i wanted to do? well obviously yes since i'm doing it again, and i've looked at what people said and started to see things i could do to make it better, am i trying to impress those people, or make them like it? frig no, i could care less now, why? becuase they where wrong, but I can always use to improve. we all can. So please please PLEASE post it, and give me a PM so i can come help ya out.

[Jimmy_Dublo]

Yeah Cyborg go ahead man, post your stuff.

At first I was shocked at what that guy said to me. I was like 'Wow, should I really continue?'. But I knew its what I wanted to do, and Hell I will do it.

POST POST POST :D

[Jimmy_Dublo]

OK, Heres another Picture I just drew of mr Spy.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/dublo7-Spy2.jpg

Just trying to get proportion a lil bit more neater.

[BiTMAP]

your perportion is wonderful, now.. may i advise you work perhaps on form? useing the lines to form the shapes of a proper human? I want you to draw wile looking at something, but don't draw what you know, draw what you see, if you can, draw a subject upside down. perhaps from a photograph. Draw what you see, not what you think you see. Your mind tricks you, it draws what it thinks is write, however, it is not. Drawing upside down, makes your brain not understand what it is seeing logicly, however, creativly it can, and therefor you are only seeing what is there, not what you think is there.

[Jimmy_Dublo]

Yeah I have heard that if you look at a picture upside down you can tell what is wrong with it.

I will probably draw another picture abit later on tonight.

Thanks.

[Jimmy_Dublo]

oK I was sorta looking at a CS model, and changed the picture abit. Just the legs and arms have more shape to them

btw sorry bout all the pics im posting lol.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/dublo7-Spy3.jpg

[BiTMAP]

no thats good, thats a bit better, now my main crit was focused at your hands... :S they could be much nicer. :) You do have some skill in this, just need focus.

[megamusZoidus]

you might want to look at Splinter Cell or Metal Gear Solid cause your spy looks more terrorist like than spy like.

[Fish-MD]

arms r too short from what i can see.

[Jimmy_Dublo]

Well I measured his torso to be 5 centimetres and the arms 6 centimetres so they were longer then his torso.

I think they look alright.

[JaMo]

arms are three head(sideways) long. your arms are to short for normal proportions. the elbow should be around the belly button and the finger tips abit above the knee.

[YerEvilTwin]

To whom I offended:

Sorry. I know what I posted was not positive, and I apologize to all of the CGtalkers out there that were hurt out there. I did not like the art work presented in the post. I have posted several times in the past how bad somone work is. I would rather be told the my work is crap and to start over than encouraged to keep going with it. I see many posts that are irrelevant and unnecessary fluff; "wow, that's awsome can't wait to see more." That will not help anyone improve their skills. I know that I broke rule #1; Be courteous and polite, but no one is going take being told that there work is bad nicely. The work was bad because it lacked originality, 3 dimensionality, proportion, character, sence of age. When I present my work here at school I hardly ever am told it's great. All I hear are the problems I have with it, and that make me a better artist. The guy that sits next to me went to 6 years of Russian Art schools and when they presented there work the professor would simply replay garbage and they would have to start all over. He is one of the best artist I have ever met.So in the end I am just some out in cyber space that didn't like some guys post. I invite everyone to slam my work, but only if its honest.

[SecretAgent]

>> YerEvilTwin: I don't think anyone is knocking on a good solid critique, I mean after all, that's why we all post our work here so we can improve upon it - I think everyone was a little frustrated that you mainly bashed his work objectively and really offered no critique what-so-ever. If you don't like his work that's fine but, you don't have to tell him its crap - give him some crits as to what you think is wrong so he at least has an idea of what to try an improve upon, otherwise it's just a waste to reply to the thread. Anyways, I'm done debating, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents into the discussion.

[AveryWare]

i think that critiques are not really critiques on this site anymore but more fan boys yelling out "the only thing i can say is keep it up", "great job". Now if your just looking for someone to give you a ego boost then this would be the site for you. I'm not slaming the site its self but the fact that real critiques are few and between.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDITED BY MODERATOR

strike #1

YerEvilTwin...check yourself before you wreck yourself...

honest critiques are widely accepted, but please post yours with more tact in the future...a professional attitude is well respected in the industry, so please post with respect towards your fellow forum members...do not blacklist yourself over what should have been a simple post, it is not worth it...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now im sure my post will be gone or edited. The edited post here says "a professional attitude" what YerEvilTwin was not really professional but the thing he was trying to say is we need more really critiques, if you can't take it dont post it.

[AdamAtomic]

Sure, maybe there need to be more critiques, but imo its hard to critique something like this. Clearly there are anatomy and design issues. There are 4 ways to respond to a post like Jimmy's here:

A) Slam it as crap. In general, while it may be "honest" (and thus helpful, technically) it could easily turn Jimmy off from the one community that is willing to offer help and ideas to help him move forward. One questions the usefulness of blatantly and rudely stating the obvious though...

B) Give praise. In general, could be helpful - it would certainly be encouraging, right? False praise is just as damaging as an honest but rude post. On this particular thread, I don't believe anyone was blindly issuing fanboy replies, and I know I speak for a lot of people here when I say we will give a little fan service now and again when the work deserves it, but we try very hard to offer helpful ideas and critiques where they are needed.

C) Offer a critique. In this case, I think this is probably useless. Making a list of everything that Jimmy has done wrong here would (lets be honest) take a long time. The important thing to remember is that when we started drawing and modeling we were all in the same place. Yereviltwin, I'm glad that your Russian friend is a hardass artist now, but I highly doubt that the first time you drew something all your friends were like "hey man thats crap throw it away and start over," at which point you cheerfully complied. A little honesty on your own part would help a lot.

D) Give advice. I think that in Jimmy's case and many others that get posted here, a little advice can go a long ways. Sure, it may be stuff that you think they should already know, or it may be stuff that you knew before you got this far, but it can make a big difference to these people to hear some sound advice based on our own follies and foibles (be they past or current).

If you really feel that CGTalk has been rendered completely useless by screaming fanboys, then too bad for you. If you want to make it a better place, then do your part; offer critiques where they will help, and offer advice when it is needed. Don't take it out on some kid who's just trying to see if the water is warm enough to swim in.

[gmask]

Okay not to be pedantic but the character looks more like an assasin, recon or guerrilla warfare expert than a spy. Typically spies would look more incognito whereas this guy is obviously up to something.

[SplineGod]

Ive seen many artists who cant draw to save their lives. Many can paint, sculpt very well though. Ive known some who cant draw but can 3D model.
The idea is to create something that is at the very least, proportional. 3D is nice because its fairly easy to tweak.
I would just jump in and start trying to at least model a general human figure and see how it goes. Even with all the critiques theres no substitute for just jumping in and doing it.
Theres plenty of good books that teach proportions.

[kyphur]

Overall the idea is pretty good but not very spy-esque. I would try looking into a bit more as far as the espionage/counter-intelligence resources for inspiration on your design. A good book is World Military Power (a frickin' huge book printed in 1980 and available at amazon (if it's the right one) for about 6 bucks or so ).

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0835207307/qid=1079452393/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-4506168-8538448?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Also you may want to check into anatomy books. My favorite is Human Anatomy for Artists: The Elements of Form by Eliot Goldfinger. I usually don't use books for reference, only models and what's in my head but this is a good book and the only one I'll recommend. You can find it on Amazon also but it's a bit more pricier but well worth it.

Some ideas to think about on your artwork:

Cloth: The straps, bands, gloves etc. will pinch other cloth and make it bulge in certain areas around the edges. Most SF teams will also rarely have loose sleeved opened clothing at the cuffs. Tighten these up. Also try adding subtle detail to the cloth such as a crooked line to represent folded cloth.

Line weight: Work with this a lot and try to vary the thickness of your line to show a weight to the character. Your line is constant almost in every spot.

Shading: Not necessarily a necessity but it could add some depth to your character.

Proportions: Pretty close but his legs seem a little short. I would suggest again looking at anatomy books. This isn't a necessity either since there are a lot of artists that stretch, squash and destroy proportions in order to achieve a stylistic approach. I would suggest hitting multiple forums (cgchat, conceptart.org, etc.) and look through the people you like there's websites and see how they take their approach. Tear it apart piece by piece and try to see how they assembled their anatomy if you like what they're doing. You also need to understand the form beneath the clothing since this will dictate your cloth's shape also. You may want to try doing a character turn around for 3D on graph paper also. This will help keep proportions pretty accurate.

I like the fact that you actually thought about putting bands in the skullie. If you're looking for a kind of knit look for the skullie you may want to do hatch marks horizontally with a slight curve the lenght of those lines to give a more knitted look. Usually the SF's also have a ribbed shirt like the skullie so you may want to add a similar effect, just don't go crazy with it everywhere. Something you want to keep is a uniform look and feel to the drawing in this case so try to keep it consistent but not overwhelming.

Anyways, back to work...

Kyph

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