PDA

View Full Version : Challenge Q: How do we vote ?


Hmura
01-24-2002, 12:01 PM
Well it getting close ( Mine won't be finished on time ) and I was just wondering how we are going to vote for the entries. :)

>>H<<

el gatto
01-24-2002, 04:19 PM
Hummm... I think I have an Idea... It's not the simplest way but it's fair... each rule is considered

exemple:

Challenge wip: Joe Louis :)

Male :your note / 10
Thin and Tall: your note / 10
Alien like : your note / 10
personnal appreciation : your note / 10

you get the idea...

then we would average the numbers.
We could give extra points for votes.. lets say Joe has 20 votes...well he gets 20 extra points, the other guy gets 10 votes= ten extra points... get it

Well this is how I see it but It's probably too complicated. I'm sure It'll be something simpler... like let's vote and the guy who gets the most votes is the winner.... but hey! it's cool too ;)

any other Ideas ????

rendermonkey23
01-24-2002, 05:23 PM
Well.... voting would be cool but since this isn't a contest, and looking back on all that I've learned in just 'this' challenge alone, I'm happy not caring who won.

But since CGChannel is giving out prizes (of some sort, I think), they will probably incorporate a poll or some other way of voting.


cha ching.....$.02

el gatto
01-24-2002, 05:45 PM
Yep, you're right...

vertex
01-24-2002, 06:03 PM
Sorry guys i must have missed when this turned into a contest rather than a challenge, the whole point was to get loads of people exploring the same concept and the sharing of ideas.

(If however this has turned into a contest I would just like to say that it will eventually kill this challenge, as the arguments and bikereing over who everyone thinks should of won begin.)

Also if there is to be a winner I think we should forget about voting and all that silly nonsense because its a waste of time, simply award the winner as being the person who's post has had the most posts and visitors (what's that Pascal wins, are you sure) then we can concentrate on the next challenge instead of waiting for the inevitable, (Matt I know you are running a close second but I think you'll agree)

Thats my 0.02$

Vertex

pascal_blanche
01-24-2002, 06:27 PM
I think it's gonna be something like vertex said.. for now all the pleisure was to share the same project and the spirit was really something.. there's still time left, so the fun is not finished ;) (gotta upgrade mine a last time;) .. the Challenge showed to Cg channels admins that there was a big potential here, and they are working on itto create a real challenge section with prices and all.
I think that the biggest reward is that we all participated to something huge and new...

. I have an idea to close this first challenge with fun, talk you about it later ;)

lildragon
01-24-2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by pascal blanché

. I have an idea to close this first challenge with fun, talk you about it later ;)

agreed ;) this first challenge should just be for fun and mainly for the purpose of learning, we already know it has the potential to be big ;)

funny thing is tho, I haven't seen any wireframes, control cages or any tips on the materials used to draw the 2D art ;)

el gatto
01-24-2002, 08:15 PM
Wait a minute guys, don't get me wrong :confused: I haven't said anything about prizes and contest... I was just making a suggestion on a way to vote.... If there is no vote, fine with me :), I don't mind ...

BTW: Did I read something about some of the challengers making tutorials or something , giving us tips and tricks after the challenge is over, that would be great since I guess nobody really have time for it while working on their pirates :) ???

Matt-Clark
01-24-2002, 08:57 PM
award the winner as being the person who's post has had the most posts and visitors (what's that Pascal wins, are you sure) then we can concentrate on the next challenge instead of waiting for the inevitable, (Matt I know you are running a close second but I think you'll agree.

No, to be honest that's a silly idea. ;) More people have looked at something therefore it's the winner? hmmm. Actually that's even more silly when you consider that someone like myself and a few others had a link directly to their threads from the front page of CG Channel.

If there is to be voting then I had imagined a system similar to 3dluvr's contest where you award points to your favourites. Personally I don't have a problem with voting and prizes, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a front runner. (I don't expect I'll even have a chance to join in another challenge for some time.)
The whole community, sharing and exploring ideas thing is great, but why shy away for awarding excellence? That's nothing to be ashamed of.

I've had my eyes on a few of the WIP threads which if it came down to it I'd vote for, and they're probably not the ones people would expect. I don't think it'd be as cut and dry as suggested. :D

pascal_blanche
01-24-2002, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by vertex
(Matt I know you are running a close second but I think you'll agree)

MUHUhuhhuhhuahahaha!!! http://www.were-here.com/forums/images/smilies/pirate.gif http://www.were-here.com/forums/images/smilies/pirate.gif http://www.were-here.com/forums/images/smilies/pirate.gif

Matt-Clark
01-24-2002, 09:08 PM
LOL

AnimaLMotheR
01-24-2002, 09:40 PM
We ask the magic 8 ball... ;)

sherban
01-24-2002, 10:40 PM
how about making it like a beauty pageant where you have like twenty runner-ups and a miss congeniality (is that spelled right?). That way everyone's happy.

actually, maybe there should be categories, like:

most original concept
best set-up
most detailed model
most interesting color palette
most off-beat design
etc.

and of course:

best over all 3d
best over all 2d

sigma
01-24-2002, 11:02 PM
hmm, how about....

1 List of finalists, each with a check box beside their name and a link to their thread/character.
Every forum member gets to cast 4 votes, 1 for 1st place, 1 for 2nd place and so on.

or, setup a page at cgchannel showing off all the entries.

I dont know :rolleyes: :p

toma
01-25-2002, 05:59 AM
Yes, i like the idea of having all the final entries set up together. Off topic images should not be on such a page.
Then a voting system could be used. I do not exactly know how :p

Not especially for this challenge, that is not really official, but this could be done for the second challenge/contest (not sure of the definition...).

A page hosted by cgchannel, linked on the main page when the contest is over and all entries are selected, with links on the competitor's mail or web. This can be a great way of showing your art.

Voting who is best counting the number of views of the thread seems ridiculous to me. Just the final image (or images ?) count(s).

And i hope i'll have something to show before the end of that challenge ... my god i'm so late !

Jean Eric
01-25-2002, 06:07 AM
We could arrange a popular vote on CG Channel or perhaps you want to keep it to those in the Challenge?

You guys have to decide. We are also working to have a second panel decide which image is the best. We are putting together a jury made-up of very high-profile people in the industry. I think once you know who they are, you will be pleased. I just want to confirm all the names before announcing them.

We are also working out a few prizes for that. The next challenges could be even more exciting.

Hmura
01-25-2002, 06:54 AM
Wow that would be excellent, can't wait to find out who they are :)

>>H<<

-JT-
01-25-2002, 08:42 AM
No matter who wins, it's been a great experience this challenge, it was inspiring, motivating and really fun. :)
The only thing : it would be good to see all the pictures on a special page, it's a lot easier to check and admire all the entries this way.

epatnor
01-25-2002, 09:11 AM
No matter who wins, it's been a great experience this challenge, it was inspiring, motivating and really fun.

I really have to agree on the above statement. The fun and charm (and looks?) of this challenge was the fact that the little people actually had a chance of dancing with the big elephants! If this turns into a big, fullblown starcrammed contest, there is a BIG RISK that the newbies and wannabes won't even DARE participate, knowing the competition involved (no elephants mentioned). But hey - of course I think that credit should go where credit is due!

Maybe I'm just rambling... :) But I just got a little scared of the effects this could have. I for one haven't even contributed anything to the pirate challenge, I'm lurking in the shadows until I feel confident enough to show something! ;) But if I'm supposed to enter anything into the Big CG Channel / CG Talk WIP Contest where you can win a Porsche as the grand prize, I'm not so sure anymore... Got me? If these ideas are to be reality, it's starting to smell like the Big Kahuna Awards...

The cool thing about this challenge was that you could actually feel the vibes - the pirates eveolved on peoples desks during lunch breaks, a couple of hours after work, before bedtime and so on. There was no pressure! And man - I learned a lot.

I can just wish that these challenges stay in their present form... Where you get inspiration from each other and a push every time someone just crit your post! With the risk of sounding... well you know: If, on top of that, someone like Pascal or Matt or one of the other "elephants" makes suggestions or just comment on your pic - man thats reward enough!

Kind regards,
Patrik

Jean Eric
01-25-2002, 09:23 AM
I think the "challenge" is to keep this Challenge informal but at the same time, allow it to grow. No. you probably won't be able to buy a Porshe with the prize (although a house would be nice... JK)

I was discussing this with Pascal. Perhaps we could have different prize level in different levels of expertise. Level 1 , 2 and 3 for example. Each participants selects his own level when entering the challenge. But the higher the level, the bigger the prizes. Each artist can select the level of his choice. I think this would be a way to keep everyone happy.

Suggestions?

Facial Deluxe
01-25-2002, 10:13 AM
To vote or not to vote ? Agree, but where do these white stars come from then? I thought it was proportonnal to some kind of vote. Am I wrong ?

vertex
01-25-2002, 10:16 AM
Guys I here what you are saying but I think there are fundemental differences in the two processes.

1.) Challenge, we all have a laugh tackling the same subject in a public forum with a view to constructive critique's and sharing knowledge and techniques.

Goal. to better ourselves.

2.) Contest, we all tackle the same subject in a private way releasing images at the end to be judged.

Goal, win prizes.

If people want to win prizes let them enter at 3dluvr, people are forgetting the spirit which led this process to begin, in the orginal thread before christmas we discussed having this way of seeing how people tackle things differently and sharing knowledge.
That is why its been so successful. Do not believe that if you turned this into a contest that it would be as popular.

3d luvr have so far run 29 contests their total entrants number is 1137 thats an average of just 40 entries per comp.

We have had 95 entries to this first challenge. image what the third one could be like or the 10th. Don't loose something that has started so well. good intentions always tend to go out the window when money or prizes enter the scene.

Sorry for the length of the post but I feel that we have something special here and the thought of just replicating a contest fills me with dread. There are enough contests out there already, be brave enough to keep to something different.

Vertex

Jean Eric
01-25-2002, 10:19 AM
Good point!!! Maybe we should keep this Challenge as it is. But we could build a separate contest area though... We already have sponsors starting to line-up to give away prizes... :)

JacquesD
01-25-2002, 10:36 AM
Jean Eric,
As I've got some times now, I'd be interested in being part of the next challenge or contest.
Just 1 question, who's going to decide what the contest theme is going to be?
About prizes, 3D or 2D package would be nice cause some people have to work in their employers company in the evening because they can't afford a 3D Package.

Facial Deluxe
01-25-2002, 10:40 AM
Well, IMHO, a car (a fast one) would be better. But not for the first prize, I think I'll be around 200th, so a car for the 200th would be nice.
Thanx in advance.

JacquesD
01-25-2002, 10:46 AM
Come on, stop dreaming.
What about a plane or maybe an island?:rolleyes:

epatnor
01-25-2002, 12:07 PM
good intentions always tend to go out the window when money or prizes enter the scene.

Exactly my point! And as mentioned, I don't think that the challenges would be so popular if they turned into contests either - the spirit that started this rocket is truly something unique. :)

BUT!!!

Of course CG Channel / CG Talk can have contests! I'm guessing CG Channels popularity have grown quite a bit over the years, and it's fully understandable that the sponsors are lined up! And that 3D artists out there are keen on winning them... ;)

Jean-Eric, you mentioned a system where there could be different entry levels. But that would have an utterly negative effect; the concept of sharing knowledge across levels would be lost. So how about this:

Contests - Maybe with different entry levels, but with the sole purpose of winning prizes and get your work recognized.

Challenges - Make 3D users feel like they are part of ONE community, and where the elephants mingle with the smaller mammals. :p Where the newbie can get critisism or be rewarded recognition by respected professionals that actually want to participate and share - and we all have LOADS of FUN at the same time!

Well I guess that this has one back side... What should the users concentrate on? Let's say a challenge start as the same time as a contest. You can easily guess the outcome of that - the pros concentrate on the contest, and the newbies choose to try thier luch in the challenge, because of the lesser prestige and pressure. Of course not generally, but you get the idea.

Can we find a solution?

I would very much like to hear from the elephants as well. :) What du you think? Will you leave us lesser beings in the cold for the sake of greed? :D Or will you continue to shine your bright light on our paths to artistic excellence? ;)

My own solution: keep the challenges as is in CG Talk, introduce contests on CG Channel, and syncronize the two so that they don't overlap. Everybody's happy!

Cheers!

epatnor
01-25-2002, 12:22 PM
I would just like to add, briefly, before I'm thrown out :):

The reason I'm going on about this is that I felt that the pirate challenge was AWESOME! Everybody is trying really hard because of three things: inspiration, support and the feeling that they actually stand a chance - exactly because it is not a contest! Everybody wins! OK so some people win more... :)

It has really lifted my spirits, a breath of fresh air, and because of it I feel inspired and is trying harder.

Over and out! :p

vertex
01-25-2002, 12:37 PM
Me again.. sorry

It would be great to have a contest but not as part of a challenge, as something seperate it would be cool.

The challenge is something completely unique to CGChannel, or at least it was here first.

I think that everyone should stop talking about peoples different modelling skills as if these actually effect who would enter a contest, when I think of some of the outstanding animated shorts of the previous years I remember one of a coffee bean that was excellent. So its the concept that normally helps determin these things.

We should also leave the challenges running permanently on a kind of 6 week cycle, as if people want to drop out of one and enter the contest they can, maybe the contests should go up a level and run in the background over say 4 months or 6 something more like BIG KAHUNNA.

Vertex

Hmura
01-25-2002, 12:48 PM
Well I agree with epatnor and vertex, the challenge has been an exciting and inspirational experience and not to mention FUN, and I can't wait for the next challenge.

I wouldn't like to see the great atmosphere and friendly competition go away. Everyone has been greatand Im looking forward to kickin all your buts in the next challenges. :)

>>H<<

dmonk
01-25-2002, 02:47 PM
I'm a newbie and i like the fact that pascal or matt or any "elephant" might even see my work. I think if it turn into a real contest people might only start looking at the "elephants" and thats a lil intimidating ( not that I'm a punk or anything ).
I think it should stay as it is. If you make levels of expertice who cares about the "ant" when they can go look at the elephants.
The fact that i might post something and it could be recognized in the same forum as one of these guys that have been my inspiration for learning is an absolute joy. ( even when they get 20000 views and I get 10)

just my 2 cents
now i'll let all the grown folk talk.

pascal_blanche
01-25-2002, 03:34 PM
good point dmonk.. we should somehow be able to continue to mix all levels in the same huge forum, but keep a flag somewhere saying hey i'm a mouse or I'm an elephant... how about a new criteria bellow th padawan thing like "challenge status" or something?

Jean Eric
01-25-2002, 03:45 PM
I think I agree with Vertex. I believe it would be best for us to leave the Challenge alone and create a completelly different contest, seperate from the Challenge.

The more I think of it, creating levels of expertise might not be a good idea because people would rarelly even take a look at the ones at the 'Rookie' level.

I'm just wondering how we should finish this challenge? Once all is said is done, I will compile all the entries and create a special gallery on CG Channel.

Should we even have a winner? From what I understand, everyone in the challenge IS a winner.

Matt-Clark
01-25-2002, 04:19 PM
I'm just wondering how we should finish this challenge?

Disqualify Pascal on the grounds of entering his own Challenge, and then give me a prize :D

Just a thought! ;)

pascal_blanche
01-25-2002, 04:21 PM
Jean Eric.. in this challenge gallery you are working on.. what kind of vote system can you make? In raph.com we have this one to ten vote system and the no possiblity to revote...

oh and disqualify Matt, and then give me the prize

:D :D :D

vertex
01-25-2002, 05:32 PM
Jean Eric, I think the idea of a gallery would be great maybe you could arrange criteria for images we submit i.e. no. of images, sizes angles etc. and maybe a web link to allow people to show more images on their own sites.

Maybe the gallery should run from the thread that had the least hits to the won that had the most (hahahahaha)

Vertex

fellipe
01-25-2002, 05:35 PM
let people vote, give then prizes...

instead of saying: "im only doing it to better myself".... well i must say that i only work to praise my ego in my personal mind-playground and yes, better myself ( i cant tell a lie). lets work and be happy, vote who whants to vote, be the best the winner in his glory.

btw: disqualify matt, pascal, and all 3d, than give me the prize. =>

epatnor
01-25-2002, 05:42 PM
Yeeehaaa!!! I'm glad I could help with this delicate problem!!! Stampede!!! :D:D:D

I hope I didn't stir things up too much though... ;)

But please note: I don't think anyone have a problem with rewarding Pascal or Matt or anybody for their astounding work! If CG Channel have something in the back room for them, and on top of that a chance for the sponsors to get their brands printed on either site, then go for it. Most of us have already the votes clear in our heads, and apart from the above mentioned elephants, the only tricky thing is to figure out who comes in 3rd! Oh there are so many competent contenders...:)

But like Jean-Eric said - everybody IS a winner! And it's just that that is so sweeeet with this kind of casual carefree forum challenges. As mentioned earlier - at least I haven't seen anything like this anywhere else. And the moderators of the challenge forum are doing a tremendous work in keeping the entries fit the assigment - which also help the entries take sudden directions and evolve as we go along. In a regular contest the entries not fitting the assignment would be easy to disqualify, because they will often be presented when the artist thinks they are ready for posting. And then we would all be missing out on all the fun of watching the development of the, let's say, character!

I think this is a tough nut for Jean-Eric to crack. Anyway, I "fell in love" with this forum the minute I saw it, so whatever the outcome will be, I'll stay here! ;)

Jean Eric
01-25-2002, 05:49 PM
It is possible to have an e-mail or a cookie based voting system that is a lot harder to cheat (although not impossible).

As for the gallery, the idea is not new. We've been working on a new CG Channel gallery for months. The only issue we have is bandwidth. CG Channel/CG Talk consumes nearly 200 GB of bandwidth a month. We believe our new gallery, featuring live updates and massive publicity on CG Channel would probably consume something like 0.5 and 1 Terabyte of badnwidth a month.

Does anybody know how much that kind of infrastructure costs?

Raph.com almost consumes 100 GB to themselves, and they don't get that much traffic (they don't update very often).

Just to give you an idea, after re-launching CG Elite last week, CG Channel crashed within 15 minutes (too much demand on the server).

The gallery system we are working on is far more advanced and will allow participants to post images, comment on them, and a lot more... It will be the perfect environment for Challenges. We just need to figure out how to get the infrastructure in place and pay for it.

The new infrastructure will represent Thousands of $ of bandwidth every month and we need to prop a few more sponsors before we can go into that direction.

Those banner you may find anoying, but they make all of this possible. CG Channel right now gets over 20,000 unique visits a day, and we're still climbing furiously...

vertex
01-25-2002, 06:20 PM
Jean Eric, maybe you share the load with us, if we want our work in a small rougues gallery of entrys then we host our own galleries and cg channel put up a few pages of their own with a thumbnail render no large than say 300x300 (I have big thumbs) for each entry and then a click through to our sites, it still work to promote the good things happening on CGchannel.

Vertex

Jean Eric
01-25-2002, 06:31 PM
Patience, we are working on something. First, CG Channel had to be turned from a successful web-site into a successful business. CG Channel Inc. was officially Incorporated in the US in late December. We opened our San Francisco office a couple months ago, and now we are moving forward.

Leonard Teo has done a great job as a CEO, turning things around for all of us. The Gallery will be there one day, and we are even looking way beyond a still image gallery. Video is also part of the equation.

Problems with external sites that we plug is that as CG Channel grows, it becomes more and more difficult to plug a site without crashing it. Only a year ago, CG Channel had something like 3,000 or 4,000 visitors a day. Now, it's 20,000 and we target something like 50,000 by the end of this year. Already, I think CG Channel and CG Talk generate more page impressions than most of our competitors... Combined! The growth has been phenomenal.

BTW, we have put together a mock-up of what the new gallery may look like. It's not yet functional, the images and the text are just there for positioning.

http://www.cgchannel.com/cgart/index3.html

Click on the top-left image, then, click again on the larger image and you'll see a pop-up open with the full-size version of that same image.

sigma
01-25-2002, 07:42 PM
Lookin good Jean Eric! I really like the new flash menu at the top. Clean design. The login section still bugs tho. Too big..maybe.
:p

cerreto
01-25-2002, 09:33 PM
I just wanted to say to me it doesnt matter what happens with the vote or no vote situation ,

I came away from this learning good lessons , and gaining valuble advice , in my opinion bieng able to get feedback from my peers is more valuble than anything. Ive learned to concept my model for 50 percent of the time and then spend the other half modeling even if i can finish a model in a day or two, the results of planing it out are far better ,


I would like to personaly thank pascal , jean , matt , lil dragon , and every one that participated and tought me a thing or two its been fun to see so much work come to life , i got off track far too much in this challenge with other projects but am really loking forward to the next

parallax
01-26-2002, 10:10 AM
1st of all,
I think Vertex (and a few others FTM) is right about the challenge/contest issue.
The original idea (i think..) of the challenge was a sort of "hanging around with cg-guys (and gals??) " sort of thing.
Sharing/trying to come up with different ideas and solutions for a certain problem or challenge, exchanging "expertise", and generally have a good time/laugh. Every participant has his/her own interpretation of the original idea, and is given the possibility to show his work. Also, the development of the characters was a very interesting thing to see IMO.
It has very much the characteristics of spending an evening with your friends, playing a board game.
If you turn it into a contest, all this will be lost. Web contests often create "i only enter to win" atmosphere, and you can forget about WIP's. Although winning is often seen as the goal of a contest, its the people interacting with eachother wich makes the challenge far more fun.
If there will be contest chapter on this site, i think it would be a good idea if it were not to run at the same time/duration as the challenge. As stated earlier, i think it would be a good idea to make the challenge 6 weekly, and eventually a contest 6monthly for example.
If you run them in exactly the same timeframe, people will probably enter OR the challenge OR the contest, destroying the 'equality' in this forum.
Im a regular visitor on this board, and i'm beginning to like this board much more than the other boards i visit, mainly because of the people/fun aspect. I'd hate to see it dissappear.

About the bandwidth problem, i think the thumbnails option is a good idea. Let users who want a gallery spot, share their resources( if possible) to make this place even better.

fellipe
01-26-2002, 10:22 AM
let the man work, he'll come up with a good solution i bet.
and i guess, participating in the challenge with a prize in mind (may it be only the "best work" prize) is a good thing, ppl will work harder on their works. truth

parallax
01-26-2002, 11:09 AM
Sure, people work harder if there's a possibility to win a prize.
I think getting respect and feedback from artists that have 'proven' their worth to the community is already a prize.
My point is, a lot of people would rather look at very high quality art, done by well known artists, than look at work done by people who haven't really had the change to show their work.
Why change something thats good?

fellipe
01-26-2002, 11:35 AM
the law of the jungle

el gatto
01-26-2002, 03:08 PM
I think it should stay as it is. If you make levels of expertice who cares about the "ant" when they can go look at the elephants.

I totally agree with you Dmonk,whatever we decide to do, I really don't think we should devide this challenge into levels... and the more I think of it the more I like the Idea of leaving it the way it is right now and put enteries in a gallery or something at the end of the challenge...

As far as voting goes... well I don't mind voting or not voting, the only reason that's makes voting interesting is that it can be motivating, If I finished 20th on this challenge and 18th on the next challenge it just motivates me to do better and better... but after all I don't need voting to do that 'cause I know I can always do better ;)

Anyways, I hope they'll make the right decision with this challenge thing, 'cause it's been really cool, and I hope I'll have the chance to participate in something similar in a near future.

fellipe
01-26-2002, 04:27 PM
lets catalog then.
put then tags with their levels, distribute prizes. the better the prize, the bigger the number of entries. there will be millions and millions of hits each month, wich will be the publicity offer come in abnormal levels, money will flow like rivers. embrace you future , its only natural with the humans, to prosper in life.

CGTalk Moderation
01-13-2006, 01:39 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.