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RobertoOrtiz
01-24-2004, 02:50 AM
Quote:
"Twenty years ago, on January 24, 1984, Apple Computer launched the Macintosh. It contained virtually unknown features, including simple icons, and an odd little attachment called a mouse.

Many newspaper stories at the time had to include a definition. Silicon Valley's newspaper The San Jose (California) Mercury News, for example, described the mouse as "a handheld device that, when slid across a table top, moves the cursor on the Mac's screen."

Apple co-founder Steve Jobs dubbed the Macintosh "the people's computer." Jobs and business partner Steve Wozniak -- a math and computer junkie -- had sold their first computer, the Apple I, in 1976. They had put it together in a garage.

">>link<< (http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/01/23/mac.birthday/index.html)
-R

midknight3
01-24-2004, 03:20 AM
Happy anniversary Apple! Maybe they'll release something special tommorrow.

Jonnyp
01-24-2004, 04:41 AM
maybe they'll release something good tomorrow. The only thing I can personally say they have going good - is their OS, and final cut pro - otherwise - gimme a PC for 1/3 the price that will kick the crap outta the mac.

(though I have to say - if you're doing direct to print - the mac with mac monitors is extremely handy because you don't get any color calibration problems!!!)

OKAY - credit where credit is due - they brought to us graphics on the computer - they brought to us a point and click type interface - so happy B-day macintosh! :bounce:

parallax
01-24-2004, 09:44 AM
Everybody seems to forget that the point & click interface was brought to you by Xerox, and the people of Xerox Parc.

Ms & Apple did not invent the GUI.

chadtheartist
01-24-2004, 03:22 PM
Well, they didn't invent the GUI, but they were the first to expose it to the masses. How many Xerox machines have you seen that use a icon based desktop? Not many.

Here's hoping the G5 brings about a great change with their hardware! WoOT! And Jonnyp, I doubt you'll find a PC machine that is as capable as a DP G5 for 1/3 the price.

TiGER
01-24-2004, 04:11 PM
As the manager of the Mac computer lab at university I attend, I've come to appreciate the advantages of the Mac... as well as the shortfalls.
I run Windows based PCs at home, but I do plan on getting a Mac of my own eventually. 80% of the layout/print world is Mac based, so it would be nice to have the added compatibility.

Happy B-Day Mac! :beer:

js33
01-25-2004, 05:23 AM
Happy Birthday Mac.

"80% of the layout/print world is Mac based, so it would be nice to have the added compatibility."

Yes but the print industry is dying.
Don't any Mac "design" studios get this? Oh sure it will be around for sometime but things are increasingly being published electronically PDF files, websites, CD-ROMs instead of being printed on paper. Also think of all those computer books and magazines printed over the last 25 years. Hopefully alot of it was recycled but I'm sure a lot of it is sitting in the landfills across the world. Paper is wasteful for timely information that can be archieved electronically. Daily newspapers are dying and will be the first to be totally phased out as soon as there is a cheap electronic reusable paper. Magazines are wasteful as they are usually 4 color and their paper can't be recycled as well as white paper (books and newspapers).

Ok you get the idea.

Apple didn't invent the GUI or the mouse or anything really but they were the first one to make a viable product using it and got it out to the masses (well to 5% or so anyway).

Cheers,
JS

deepinspace
01-25-2004, 01:50 PM
[i]
Yes but the print industry is dying.
[/B]

whatever .......at least not for another 20 years, me thinks.:surprised

silvergun
01-25-2004, 03:56 PM
You can find a pc for a 1/3 of the price that beats the mac? Find me 1 that cost the same that can actually beat it and don't give me these sad pathetic benchmarks run by crappy pc magazines that use half arsed applications like microsoft word and premier. Enough of your trolling, begone you dullards. Again just look atthe worlds fastest machines and youll notice the Xeons and Opterons in 4th and 6th place

Ikarus
01-25-2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by js33
Yes but the print industry is dying
LOL, sorry but that's the most ridiculus thing I've heard. How can you say that the print industry is dying. You probably don't realize just how big the print industry is. Probably more than 3/4 of the things you see on a daily basis comes from print ie: All package designs(food, drinks, candy bars, everything in the supermarket that has a label, etc.), newspapers, magazines, billboards, subway ads, train schedules, flyers, posters, books(Expose 1), etc. the list goes on and on. Just look around your house anything that has pictures, labels, writing, etc, whether printed on card board, plastic or labels came from "Print".

Sure we have the net, PDFs, CD-ROMs, but they are not replacing the print world. Some things like publising information to the web are far cheaper than printing, but that's not to say you can accomplish everything on the digital medium. Without "Print" everything you buy would have a generic box, no pretty pictures, no written instructions, no nothing, just a plain old box. I'm sure you'd like your DVD collection like that, how about your yearbook, or Expose 25 as a PDF only.

Even 100 years from now you'll still be having the print industry around. It might not be as big, but you'll still have the same designers who worked on print doing in it on what ever medium is being used at that time.

BiTMAP
01-25-2004, 11:08 PM
go mac, woop woop!

however, as far as the whole "print media dieing" ... hehe yeah sure.. YOu realise that your going to reach WAY more people with flyers then you EVER will with PDF's? Sure they're "big" but TONS of people still don't know what they are, and with all this virus crap, they won't know becuase they won't see it. They need to have TV adds about PDF's telling people what they are and how good they are, BEFORE they start to really gain ground.

Also, I do NOT see billboard dieing out anytime soon, or Logo emblems on shirts, or hats or ect.. See the point?

mushroomgod
01-25-2004, 11:29 PM
Yes but the print industry is dying.

I agree with Ikarus....silly thing to say

js33
01-26-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by BiTMAP
go mac, woop woop!

however, as far as the whole "print media dieing" ... hehe yeah sure.. YOu realise that your going to reach WAY more people with flyers then you EVER will with PDF's? Sure they're "big" but TONS of people still don't know what they are, and with all this virus crap, they won't know becuase they won't see it. They need to have TV adds about PDF's telling people what they are and how good they are, BEFORE they start to really gain ground.

Also, I do NOT see billboard dieing out anytime soon, or Logo emblems on shirts, or hats or ect.. See the point?

Adobe does have a TV add about PDFs.
Well I didn't mean everything printed is dying but alot of it is.
I used to work at the biggest printing company in central Texas and they went out of business in 2000. I left the company in 1995. They started printing computer books and manuals in 1992 and thought they were set. Then about 1994 alot of what they were printing went to PDFs and CD-ROMs and the remaining products they had were not enough to carry the company anymore.

Cheers,
JS

ironbooker
01-26-2004, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by silvergun
You can find a pc for a 1/3 of the price that beats the mac? Find me 1 that cost the same that can actually beat it and don't give me these sad pathetic benchmarks run by crappy pc magazines that use half arsed applications like microsoft word and premier. Enough of your trolling, begone you dullards. Again just look atthe worlds fastest machines and youll notice the Xeons and Opterons in 4th and 6th place



well im not going to get in a battle I personally like both of them, but just to clarify that benchmark you are telling it was made by Macworld. no a pc magazine.

Lockstar
01-26-2004, 09:27 AM
Benchmarking the G5 at the moment is ridiculous.

The G5 is currently lying dorment, crippled by legacy code, or code which has not been optimised and tuned specifically. Hardly suprising though, simple economics dictate that a 3% user base barely justifies a port in the first place, nevermind an actual thorough job. Hopefully as Apple continues to release more desirable products XCode, XGrid etc, it's user base will expand and consequently it's 3rd party software will improve.

Why do you think Apple snaps up software houses and their wares? to spite a userbase? no. This is probably the only way Apple can ensure a decent display of it's hardware, purchase the company and re-write the code specifically. Alternatively, they can rely upon some half arsed windows port. Unfortunately this seems to piss off a lot of software vendors (Adobe), but it's the thin line that Apple must walk, in order prevent it's remaining user base migrating to Wintel.

Only last week, (nearly six months after the PPC970's release) IBM released new compilers. Some sources have seen up to 40% increase in efficiency. (browse the ArsTechnica forums)

Once again, look to Virginia Tech to see what fine tuning can achieve.

Apple have had a 2 year set back with the Motorolla fiasco, Now It's time to watch IBM catch up very rapidly with x86 (and not by just extending pipelines) ;) The PPC roadmap is looking very impressive, OS X just keeps getting better.

Happy Birthday. :beer:

Tait
01-26-2004, 04:28 PM
happy birthday apple.

shame people have to ruin it with the usual mac-bashing that apple news stories always brings.

:shrug:

deepcgi
01-26-2004, 08:39 PM
And one more bit of history that critics forget to remember....

Apple PAID Xerox for a variety of R&D projects, several Xerox employees were also contracting with Apple, and Apple had a mouse driven interface project already in the works before the first visit to Xerox.

Happy birthday Apple!

Saurus
01-26-2004, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Tait
happy birthday apple.

shame people have to ruin it with the usual mac-bashing that apple news stories always brings.

:shrug:

Yeah...It's a shame everytime there's a Mac news it's ruined by mac-bashing.

Did you hear Bill Gates is to recieve the knighthood by Queen Elizabeth! Congrad Bill! :bounce: :bounce:

http://www.inq7.net/brk/2004/jan/25/brkinf_1-1.htm

Saurus

Lockstar
01-27-2004, 09:43 AM
Hopefully she'll aim a little higher with the sword.

parallax
01-27-2004, 09:52 AM
I'm a PC user, and i'm glad to say that a G5 running FCP is hard to beat:thumbsup:
No Mac bashing here.

PC has it strengths and weaknesses, and so has Apple.

Now carry on.:rolleyes:

maxx10
01-27-2004, 10:22 AM
just to shed some light on the apple/xerox gui debate...


This essay was written by Bruce in 1996, and is reprinted here with his permission. Bruce was one of the main designers of the Macintosh software, and he worked at Xerox for years before that, so he's uniquely qualified to discuss their relationship.



Where It All Began

For more than a decade now, I've listened to the debate about where the Macintosh user interface came from. Most people assume it came directly from Xerox, after Steve Jobs went to visit Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). This "fact" is reported over and over, by people who don't know better (and also by people who should!). Unfortunately, it just isn't true - there are some similarities between the Apple interface and the various interfaces on Xerox systems, but the differences are substantial.

Steve did see Smalltalk when he visited PARC. He saw the Smalltalk integrated programming environment, with the mouse selecting text, pop-up menus, windows, and so on. The Lisa group at Apple built a system based on their own ideas combined with what they could remember from the Smalltalk demo, and the Mac folks built yet another system. There is a significant difference between using the Mac and Smalltalk.

Smalltalk has no Finder, and no need for one, really. Drag-and- drop file manipulation came from the Mac group, along with many other unique concepts: resources and dual-fork files for storing layout and international information apart from code; definition procedures; drag-and-drop system extension and configuration; types and creators for files; direct manipulation editing of document, disk, and application names; redundant typed data for the clipboard; multiple views of the file system; desk accessories; and control panels, among others. The Lisa group invented some fundamental concepts as well: pull down menus, the imaging and windowing models based on QuickDraw, the clipboard, and cleanly internationalizable software.

Smalltalk had a three-button mouse and pop-up menus, in contrast to the Mac's menu bar and one-button mouse. Smalltalk didn't even have self-repairing windows - you had to click in them to get them to repaint, and programs couldn't draw into partially obscured windows. Bill Atkinson did not know this, so he invented regions as the basis of QuickDraw and the Window Manager so that he could quickly draw in covered windows and repaint portions of windows brought to the front. One Macintosh feature identical to a Smalltalk feature is selection-based modeless text editing with cut and paste, which was created by Larry Tesler for his Gypsy editor at PARC.

As you may be gathering, the difference between the Xerox system architectures and Macintosh architecture is huge; much bigger than the difference between the Mac and Windows. It's not surprising, since Microsoft saw quite a bit of the Macintosh design (API's,sample code, etc.) during the Mac's development from 1981 to 1984; the intention was to help them write applications for the Mac, and it also gave their system designers a template from which to design Windows. In contrast, the Mac and Lisa designers had to invent their own architectures. Of course, there were some ex- Xerox people in the Lisa and Mac groups, but the design point for these machines was so different that we didn't leverage our knowledge of the Xerox systems as much as some people think.

The hardware itself was an amazing step forward as well. It offered an all-in-one design, four-voice sound, small footprint, clock, auto-eject floppies, serial ports, and so on. The small, portable, appealing case was a serious departure from the ugly- box-on-an-ugly-box PC world, thanks to Jerry Manock and his crew. Even the packaging showed amazing creativity and passion - do any of you remember unpacking an original 128K Mac? The Mac, the unpacking instructions, the profusely-illustrated and beautifully- written manuals, and the animated practice program with audio cassette were tastefully packaged in a cardboard box with Picasso- style graphics on the side.

Looking Back

In my opinion, the software architectures developed at Xerox for Smalltalk and the Xerox Star were significantly more advanced than either the Mac or Windows. The Star was a tremendous accomplishment, with features that current systems haven't even started to implement, though I see OpenDoc as a strong advance past the Xerox systems. I have great respect for the amazing computer scientists at Xerox PARC, who led the way with innovations we all take for granted now, and from whom I learned a tremendous amount about software design.

Apple could have developed a more complex, sophisticated system rivaling the Xerox architectures. But the Mac had to ship, and it had to be relatively inexpensive - we couldn't afford the time or expense of the "best possible" design. As a "little brother" to the Lisa, the Macintosh didn't have multitasking or protection - we didn't have space for the extra code or stack required. The original Macintosh had extremely tight memory and disk constraints; for example, the Resource Manager took up less than 3,000 bytes of code in the ROM, and the Finder was only 46K on disk. We made _many_ design decisions that we regretted to some extent - even at the time some of us felt disappointed at the compromises we had to make - but if we had done it differently, would we have shipped at all?

The Past and Future

In many ways, the computing world has made remarkably small advances since 1976, and we continually reinvent the wheel. Smalltalk had a nice bytecoded multi-platform virtual machine long before Java. Object oriented programming is the hot thing now, and it's almost 30 years old (see the Simula-67 language). Environments have not progressed much either: I feel the Smalltalk environments from the late 1970's are the most pleasant, cleanest, fastest, and smoothest programming environments I have ever used. Although CodeWarrior is reasonably good for C++ development, I haven't seen anything that compares favorably to the Smalltalk systems I used almost 20 years ago. The Smalltalk systems of today aren't as clean, easy to use, or well- designed as the originals, in my opinion.

We are not even _close_ to the ultimate computing-information- communication device. We have much more work to do on system architectures and user interfaces. In particular, user interface design must be driven by deep architectural issues and not just new graphical appearances; interfaces are structure, not image. Neither Copland nor Windows 95 (nor NT, for that matter) represent the last word on operating systems. Unfortunately, market forces are slowing the development of the next revolution. Still, I think you can count on Apple being the company bringing these improvements to next generation systems.

I'm sure some things I remember as having originated at Apple were independently developed elsewhere. But the Mac brought them to the world.

Telemaco
01-27-2004, 11:55 AM
Maybe in the US it's a smart idea to have a Mac, but not in Europe.

:shrug:

Here the battle is lost.

parallax
01-27-2004, 12:43 PM
Well, even with all this background info i still think its safe to say Xerox at least pioneered the idea.
I mean, the GuI didn't just appeared out of thin air, we went from command line to GUI, not GUI to GUI you simply can't deny that. I guess Apple evolved the GUI 'concept' pioneered by Xerox.

After all, planes and cars were also derived from past revolutionary ideas, that doesn't make Ford the inventor of the car. (wich he obviously isn't)

maxx10
01-27-2004, 12:53 PM
If you're interested check out the work of Douglas Engelbart, he is the inventor of the mouse, pioneer of human-computer interaction, including graphical user interface, hypertext, and networked computers. Basically the concepts of modern computing were laid down at Stanford by this man in the sixties... everything from there on is just an improvement on his work, either it be xerox, apple, AT&T and all the others.....


And Telemaco why would you say that in Europe the mac isn't a viable choice??

parallax
01-27-2004, 02:56 PM
I'll check it out, sounds mighty interesting

maxx10
01-27-2004, 03:06 PM
you can start here:

About Douglas Engelbart (http://livinginternet.com/w/wi_engelbart.htm)

Telemaco
01-27-2004, 04:25 PM
Cos we have 40 PCs at work running windows, all my friends use windows, cibercofees, banks, museums, university, schools, everybody. I've heard about one guy that has a mac, but I've never seen one in somebody's home...

I use to go to computer partys, maybe 1% are macs.


Telemaco

beaker
01-27-2004, 08:27 PM
ahh yes, the "I've never seen anyone use one in the part of the world I live, so of course no one in all of europe could possibly be using them" syndrome.

Ikarus
01-27-2004, 11:49 PM
Although I'm a PC user you have to respect the fact that Apple has come up with some innovative ideas and products. But in this day and age you know it isn't who came up with the idea first, cause sooner or later you'll see everybody jumping in and trying to get a piece of the pie (ie: Apple iTunes). It goes both wasy as Apple had sone it's share of using innovations and ideas from other people as well.

By the way anybody ever seen "Pirates of Silicon Valley".

kromekat
01-28-2004, 12:23 AM
Yes but the print industry is dying.


:applause: Classic!:rolleyes:

kromekat
01-28-2004, 12:28 AM
{ahh yes, the "I've never seen anyone use one in the part of the world I live, so of course no one in all of europe could possibly be using them" syndrome.}

Yes, it is rumoured that they have one in the next village from here, over the fiery mountain, and beyond the ancient forest , but obviously no one has ever seen it to confirm or deny, or if they have, they never returned to tell the tale..... the truth is out there folks...!

:beer:

Lockstar
01-28-2004, 01:50 PM
I once heard of a macintosh that had escaped from a reseller in London and has been roaming the countryside in Kent. There have been numerous sightings by terrorized locals, who have had to stop booting their PC's after 7.00PM, until it's been caught.

When I see it, I will shoot it. and hang it's motherboard on my wall.

;)

ps. What the hell is a computer party?

maxx10
01-28-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Lockstar

ps. What the hell is a computer party?

a LAN party probably??

anyway I'd like to give my adress to all those roaming and homeless macintoshes... they're all welcome... if G5s the better....


for those interested here you can read the story behind the creation of the macintosh in 70 chapters.... it's a cool read

The Original Macintosh by Andy Hertzfeld (http://www.folklore.org/ProjectView.py?name=Macintosh&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date)

kromekat
01-28-2004, 02:33 PM
ps. What the hell is a computer party?

The nerd* equivalent of a sex toy party maybe!? :buttrock:

Party Animal 1: "Oh yes, if you wanna please that man, buy him this super high speed 1 nanosec RAM!"
Party Animal 2: "Ohh that's so cool! - does it clean up easily afterwards?"
Party Animal 1: "er....?"

:rolleyes:

* No offence to nerdkind meant! :cool:

Lockstar
01-28-2004, 03:28 PM
I was considering a wandering refurb G5 (Virginia Tech has 1100 up for grabs)

Have decided to wait for RevB G5 (aka PPC970FX) Dual 2.4/2.6GHz tower. My credit card hand is getting twitchy.

I'd love to take my ZX Spectrum to a computer party. Hopefully some of that Clive Sinclair sex appeal will rub off on me.

Actually, 48K would be a quite a good name for a geek aftershave. must ring Calvin K

:)

Saurus
01-28-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by kromekat
The nerd* equivalent of a sex toy party maybe!? :buttrock:


* No offence to nerdkind meant! :cool:

Whoa, dude! Nerd! It’s like an elementary school playground here. Those so-called nerd is why you have a machine in front of your face and able to run program like Poser so you can do your pretty little characters. They help us lower IQ guys with Mels and scripts, so we don’t need to think too hard and get head aches. Some of the biggest nerds in the industry are also some of the richest and biggest player in the industry…Bill Gates and Steve Job. Just sitting in front of a computer would had considered you a nerd 20 years ago. Get on with the times dude.

Saurus

Telemaco
01-28-2004, 06:09 PM
Kromekat, take it easy...

:surprised


My PC is not as cool as your Mac, but it's cheaper, has more programs ...and I like it.




:beer:

kromekat
01-28-2004, 06:32 PM
* No offence to nerdkind meant!

Er...!? - did you miss the above guys? :rolleyes:

twas a joke.. some humour in a humourless debate!!? - surely you can handle that?

Being member of nerdkind myself technically, I obviously meant no offence (see above again!)

Kromekat, take it easy...

lol! - ahem - don't turn this into something it isnt! - just a lighthearted stab at the thread!!.. sheesh!

My PC is not as cool as your Mac

True, not by a long shot! ;)

but it's cheaper

Depends what you buy of course - they work about the same for comparable specs.

has more programs

Now you are just being argumentative! - that statement is almost as silly as 'the print industry is dying'! - ok, so what can a PC do that a Mac can't hmm?...cmon....yawn! :D

...and I like it.

That's the main thing wouldn't you say!?:thumbsup:

kromekat
01-28-2004, 06:34 PM
lol! - sorry, couldnt resist!

Disclaimer: I want no part of any juvenile Mac vs PC debate, so please don't provoke me to join in! :bounce:

Lockstar
01-28-2004, 06:35 PM
They help us lower IQ guys
Sufficient enough to look up irony in the dictionary?.

We're just having some light hearted fun.

Widler
01-28-2004, 06:49 PM
Happy B day Apple!~

I personally have used both mac and pc quite a lot in the past, however i'm currently using a pc at home, and mostly for 3D work more than anything.

We know that mac's are used more for print, and in regards to what a PC can do that a mac can't? ...Just wondering what u people think about 3d on the Mac vs the PC. I myself have been using 3ds max myself so trying to work on the Mac obviously isn't an option, unless i spend time in a different Mac compaticble 3d package. Anyway just wondering what you all though about 3D performance on a Mac vs PC?

kromekat
01-28-2004, 07:06 PM
Anyway just wondering what you all though about 3D performance on a Mac vs PC?

Until the G5, the PC's had the edge by a long shot in terms of rendering speed, but now the Dual 2Ghz G5 renders faster than Xeons at about Dual 2.4Ghz from the bench marks I have seen using Cinebench. OpenGL support is still slower than the PC's using the same graphics cards, and its about time Apple sorted that out! - it is worth noting that a similarly specce Xeon sytem with all the other Apple standard features added works out about the same price btw!

Having said that, I have been doing 3D professionally for nearly 6 years using Macs, and sure I could use faster rendering (current G4 owner), but I wouldn't trade the Mac OS for Windows unless I really had to! :)

Obviously Macs don't have Max, but I don't consider that a loss when they have Cinema, Lightwave and Maya.

Widler
01-28-2004, 07:47 PM
Thanks for the rendering info regarding Mac vs PC.
Personally i don't see the big difference between the
Mac and Pc interface myself!

js33
01-30-2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Ikarus
Originally posted by js33
Yes but the print industry is dying!

LOL, sorry but that's the most ridiculus thing I've heard. How can you say that the print industry is dying. You probably don't realize just how big the print industry is. Probably more than 3/4 of the things you see on a daily basis comes from print ie: All package designs(food, drinks, candy bars, everything in the supermarket that has a label, etc.), newspapers, magazines, billboards, subway ads, train schedules, flyers, posters, books(Expose 1), etc. the list goes on and on. Just look around your house anything that has pictures, labels, writing, etc, whether printed on card board, plastic or labels came from "Print".

Sure we have the net, PDFs, CD-ROMs, but they are not replacing the print world. Some things like publising information to the web are far cheaper than printing, but that's not to say you can accomplish everything on the digital medium. Without "Print" everything you buy would have a generic box, no pretty pictures, no written instructions, no nothing, just a plain old box. I'm sure you'd like your DVD collection like that, how about your yearbook, or Expose 25 as a PDF only.

Even 100 years from now you'll still be having the print industry around. It might not be as big, but you'll still have the same designers who worked on print doing in it on what ever medium is being used at that time.

The print world is dying! Look at this. (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118530)

Oh sure the designers will still be around but the printing on paper for books and magazines will come to end soon.
Now we will have electronic books and magazines. :thumbsup:

Cheers,
JS

Lockstar
01-30-2004, 11:20 AM
Oh sure the designers will still be around but the printing on paper for books and magazines will come to end soon.
Now we will have electronic books and magazines.
This would be correct if economics and demand didn't play any part in dictating the viability of something.

Much like the car industry has had fossil fuel alternatives for the last few decades.
Do you see anyone driving around in Hydrogen and battery powered cars.

I don't think so.

js33
01-30-2004, 11:38 AM
Hydrogen fuel cel and battery cars will catch on. The only reason they haven't caught on yet is becuase of the oil mafia keeping them down. But eventually they won't have an more oil.

Cheers,
JS

Lockstar
01-30-2004, 12:05 PM
Tree mafia are a lot more ruthless than the oil mafia.

;)

js33
01-30-2004, 12:19 PM
Tree mafia? :eek: I guess it takes all kinds. :applause:

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