Question: Rigging -- CS, CAT, HumanIK...

[lukx]

so here how it works
1 You got character
2 create bones for it
3 create envelopes for him (so when you move bone arm will deform properly)
4 animate it

with plugs like character studio, CAT or HIK you got skeleton with proper IK and now you can just skin it to your character and you will just start your animation faster than creating all bones and creating IK for them by yourself.

[Ashe Tie'skar]

Ahh, great, thank you for the reply!

Is it better to do everything yourself? Or do most professionals use CS, CAT, or HIK and stuff?

[lukx]

well it depends if company bought CAT or CS
also some creatures with wings, 10 legs and so on need special bone structure and it's faster to build it by yourself.
CAT, CS and HIK simplify process of rigging. I'm quite new to rigging and animation and saying the truth for my first animation I will probably use CS or CAT so I can focus on proper animation. I think it's good to learn all different things about CG rogging, texturing, lighting but hey! you're just a man and sometimes it's better to be really good in one thing. Just like everybody in this industry will tell you that in CG work you will be doing probably just one thing and in this thing you have to be good if you don't want to loose job. If you want to be an animator, focus on proper timing, curves and so on.

[Ashe Tie'skar]

OK...

Is there something to be aware of when rigging for a game character?

What is exactly is biped?

I have a HI solver between my upper arm and the terminator piece at the end of the arm chain. When i move the IK goal that is at the wrist of my character inwards towards the body of my character, the "elbow joint" moves down instead of back(which i would think it would move back) I have the front fin facing foward, any idea what the problem is, or if this is a problem?

I "think" i have my character with bones in all the right places and they fit my mesh. Should all the bones be linked?

One question i do have, is what do people mean about "making the orientation correct"? How do i check orientation?

My next step after creating the bones is to put "controls" in for it... These "controls" are IK Chains? For instances i use HI Solver and click on the "root" bone of my arm and then on the arms "end" bone and it puts a "IK Goal" at the wrist of my model? Then I use a helper point? What is the purpose of a helper point?

Once i do this for the arms, my character has a snake tail so should i put IK chains for each bone in the tail so it can bend at each pivot point?


Thanks for the help!

[Ashe Tie'skar]

I could really use some help if anyone is willing to offer some.

Here is a pic of my character and his bones i have made.

I am not to sure where to go from here... I have posted some questions alittle bit higher in this post, and i still am looking for the answers to those questions...

Help would be GREATLY appericiated.

Thanks,

http://www.shadyvale.net/kaledorn/bones.jpg

[Solve]

I'm not a Max user but, it sounds like you plunged into rigging without understanding the basics.

Try reading up on some beginner tutorials. You can't learn this stuff in a few days..or week(s).

[Ashe Tie'skar]

Well,

When you are trying to rig a character for a game, is there some things to be aware of? Is there a certain amount of bone you can use or a certain way to rig or anything?

I think i have the arms setup, and now i am working on the tail and spine. Anyone have any ideas how i should set it up?

Thanks!

[Ashe Tie'skar]

Well,

Here is a pic i have so far.

I used a spline IK with helpers for the tail part of him. I have HI IK solvers for the arms. Should i use Spline IK with helpers for the spine and neck/head?

Is there anything i need to be aware of when creating a rig for a game?

Thanks,

http://www.shadyvale.net/kaledorn/Rig.JPG

[DreiGrasheir]

since you dont have legs to rig and the tail will be slithering around (i'd assume...) youll probably want to throw a few more bones in that tail so it move more fluidly.

[Ashe Tie'skar]

If it is for a game is there can i use as many bones as i want?

Also, i don't understand what i am doing really, heh (imagine that, hehe) Anyway...


What exactly am i trying to accomplish when rigging a character?

I am trying to create bones that will move the mesh, correct? Once the bones are created, I am adding things and linking them to the bones, that will move the joints of my bones so that i can easily animate it. I should be using IK solvers for the arms and feet and tails and such, correct? Then i use FK for spine, hands, feet, neck, and head, correct? I believe i have the IK for the arms and tail correct, but i am unsure how how to use FK. What do i do when using FK? Is it basically just linking a helper point to a bone that you want to move?

I really have tried reading and doing tutorials, but i can't find anything that explain what i am trying to do and how everything works.

Anyways, thanks for the help in advance.

Thanks,

[dgainous]

Basics of Rigging a Character

Simply you are trying to create objects that a mesh and bind to that will cause it to deform properly.

I am not a game expert, but spline IK is memory intensive and it doesnt seem like that would work in a typical game engine.

1.Basically you want to take your model and line all the bones up inside of your character.

2.Once you have your bones lined up correctly, your gonna add a SKIN modifier to the model, not the bones.

** VERY IMPORTANT **

When creating bones in 3ds max, make sure that the pivots are aligned to the world coordinates found in the Hierarchy tab. > Affect Pivot > Align to World

If the bones are not aligned to the world you will surely discover many problems when it comes to animating

**

3. In the skin modifier, there is a button that says add, which will allow you to select all of the objects / bones that you want to use to deform your mesh. Typically, exclude the nubs at the end of bone chains and dont include things like helper objects, as they are used to control the bones not the mesh directly.

4. In the Skin modifer, click on Edit Envelopes, this will allow you to select the bones off your rig, and you will get envelopes that surround the bone and define what vertices will be deformed with the movement of that bone.

5. Adjust the sizing of the envelopes, for example clicking on a spine link, adjust the size of the envelope so that it surrounds the area of the mesh you want that bone to deform and nothing more. Envelopes of bones that reside next to each other should overlap some so that when the bone rotates, the is a smooth bend in the mesh.

You can you the help files to learn more about other methods like painting weights and vertex. For beginners, i would avoid using other modifiers like flex and physique.

Just as a note,

Flex can slow your machine down greatly and isnt really necessary in most cases. If wanted a belly of a character to bounce or something similar, you could easily use a bone for that area and animate that for the jiggle.

Physique is a more advance version of skin that allows muscle bulges and well as some other features, but i recommend learning with skin before moving on.

Plugins like CAT, Biped, and Motionbuilder are great, but I strongly recommend going through the process of creating your own rigs and get a firm understand of how a rig works. Yes the plugins can be great time savers, but will ultimately be a major headache if you dont master the most basic riggs first. I used custom riggs for a long time, and ive recently started using Biped for most of my characters.

I would recommend checking out Michael Comet's site, for those who do not know, he is a rigger for Blue Sky studios.

www.comet-cartoons.com

I learned some tricks there when i was getting started.

_________________________

www.3dfury.com

I can help more if you need assistance, feel free to send an email

[Ashe Tie'skar]

when i align the pivot points to the world... it screws up my bones... how do i fix this... I use 3d studio max.

Thanks.

[dgainous]

well there are couple ways to solve this

1.the method i use is to build boxes and manually link them for my bones, but the pivots need to be aligned to the world before you link them up, it will be the easiest way to save from headaches.

2.second, build you bones in the perspective view, its a pain to do so try it at your own risk and frustration

3. Dont worry about the pivots being off of the work coords., and animate with the Local coordinate system rather than View or World

[fandalis]

I have a HI solver between my upper arm and the terminator piece at the end of the arm chain. When i move the IK goal that is at the wrist of my character inwards towards the body of my character, the "elbow joint" moves down instead of back(which i would think it would move back) I have the front fin facing foward, any idea what the problem is, or if this is a problem?

I "think" i have my character with bones in all the right places and they fit my mesh. Should all the bones be linked?

One question i do have, is what do people mean about "making the orientation correct"? How do i check orientation?
I am also having problems with making proper bone orientation in 3ds max. I have tried biped using character studio but rigging with bones is harder. Could someone help me with the "PROPER WAY TO START A GOOD RIG WITH A PROPER ORIENTATION?" I'm also following some online tutorials but could'nt find the solutions with the problems i'm encountering. An example of this is; the tutorial told me to start making the bone for the spine in the front view port and make sure that the front fins infront. When i make the bones in this viewport the front fins faces on the side. so, i rotate all the spine bones to make its front fins infront but when i add a HI Solver the bones bends the wrong way... Can someone help me with this one? thanks.

[dgainous]

The easiest fix for this is to select the IK Goal / Terminator and go into the Motion Tab. There will be an option for swivel angle. Adjusting this in 90 degree increments will solve your issue. This basically tells the IK solver to bend in what direction. Hope this helps you out.

[fandalis]

ok thanks, this will probably fix my problem. summarizing this... is the orientation of placing bones that important meaning front fins must be placed infront or will i just adjust the swivel angles in the motion tab. What's the best practice for this one?

[eek]

Hi Ashe Tie 'skar,

Coming from the games industry i can give you a heads-up in bones, rigging and skinning. This is specific max stuff.

The process,

1. Model the character

2. add bones:

Now this is important DO NOT as dgainous said align your bones to the world. Bones naturally in max use the system world coardinates, and therefore by building them in the right orientation should be fine. The general rule i stick to is:- Build you bones in the viewport that there joint uses eg. spine generally rotates in X so you build it in the left view. Where X in the predominant axis.

In the properties menu of a bone you can set a bones key access to. Its very important to build it in the right view as its F-curve wont show up properly eg when you rotate it in Y you get and X curve movement in the Graph editor. This is due to the bone fighting with the system coardinates and eventually your'll get gimbal lock.

So i build the bones like this:

(fandalis this works)

feet+legs+hip+spine+chest+neck+head: left viewport

shoulders: front viewport

Arms: top and front viewport

Hands, finger: front viewport

By asigning an align to world to a bone your gunna get problems in later life.
As for using the swivel angle control, this can solve issues but general if you build the bones correctly you wont get a problem. The swivel angle is used in rigging. (also know as a pole vector in maya)

fandalis: I have an exellent technique of how to align bones properly, using a combination of this techniques and one on my site im making.

About Gimbal Lock:

Gimbal lock occurs, when one axis' rotation affect the other two eventually overlaping, this causes flipping 180 degrees. It the bane of a riggers life, and other than good setup theres nothing much you can do. The only technique i know is pose the character in a neutral poses i.e davinci pose- arms 45 degrees etc. Select the bones which your gunna animate without rigging e.g. fk arms and "freeze transform" on them. This fixes a lot of the bugs with gimbal lock. Your still get a few problems but this is best i know to fix it.

2. Skin the character

Right, this technique i use is very simple and taught to me by a great guy.(thx neil)

Dont use the evelopes, there nice to start of but for accurate control do it by hand: Turn on show vertices in the skinning menu select you bone and select all the vertices you want with it. Wieght them to 100% then press control select your next bone and with the weight spinner take some of the weighting off onto it. So you end up with 50/50%. I could explain about this more.

**Just to mention in max anything can be a bone, we regulary use point as bones. Just go into the properties menu and select "turn on bone" , remember to turn stretch off.

3.Rigging the character

Right, THIS IS A BIG SUBJECT!

If you planning to use this rig for a showreel or to work. Do not use character studio, CAT,HumanIK. They great for learning . But Studios use propiertary tools and custom rigs. At our studio we addemantly dont use plugins.

There are so many ways to rig a character. The key is a good mixture of manual and automatic controls, and the ability to do both. eg. Finger curl control and individual joint control.

Heres a few ideas, reverse foot, point knee control, hip, chest control, torso and upper body control. Head, neck, shoulder control. Fk/ik arm. 4 Bone shoulder/arm control. IF you need a rig i can happily send you one.

So heres the process:

1: model character + texture
2:bones added (important)
3: skin
4: add rig(setup no animation)
5: add puppets (animation controls)

Right a little about puppets,(this is a good analogy) Think of gepeto and pinoccio:

Pinoccio is the model, the strings are the rig, and the wooden handle is the puppets. The animator(gepetor) only needs to move and rotate the handle to give control to pinoccio.

Puppets are the shapes, objects, points etc the animator grabs to give life to the character. And their KEY!

Right that about covers it, there so much more eg, muscle deformation, facial setup etc etc. But this covers the basics.

If you need any more help, or are stuck dont hesitate to contact me.

eek

[dgainous]

Your best best is to not have to adjust anything like pivots or swivel angles. Yes the front fin would be another indication that the bones are correctly oriented.

Certainally Eek is right with the creation of the bones...creating the bones in the correct orientation is a key step that I failed to properly talk about before. It was definately a mistake to recommend that sort of solution to realigning bones, but I have used it as a fix if its too late to go back. That is what I learned back in school, and sometimes its habit to recommend doing the same, even thought I would strongly recommend having not to do so. I apologize for the problems you experienced. Taking proper steps to ensure that you build bones in the correct viewport to ensure that max get the alignment right to begin with, is the best bet.

There are many ways to go about rigging...finding the rig that works for you is always important. Everyone has their own take on the subject. I know of game companies who used Biped and those who do not anything...but like i said before, learn how to rig from scratch, then you will be fine with anything you are asked to use later on in your career. Any time you deal with plugins your dealing with software that was not written as part of the core architecture of the 3d package and therefore can give you stability problems at any stage of the game.

[eek]

Bang on the money there dgainous!, learn from scratch. Its what i did and many of the best people i know!- coming up 7 years now in max. Because once you know it, you can bend it to what every you want it to do. Its just a tool in the end.

And also take your time, dont rush on the stages. I spend about half a day putting in the bones so there perfect, and anatomically correct for skin movement. And a about a day to rig - i work out exactly what the character needs to do from the designers eg. does it need to twist 180 degrees, can it walk on its arms? etc etc. It saves me from putting in things i dont need!

Be prepared for the rig to change through the shots/animations. I regulary change arms from ik to fk, add new controls, as it may need to do new things. Rigs evolve, and theres no such thing as the perfect rig.

Its so key in my book to know your tools, because people what you to change stuff on the fly; add this, change that etc etc. You dont want to be a hinderance because this industry is really fast and getting faster all the time!

eek

[fandalis]

Thanks a lot for your informative reply! actually, this is my friends model and we plan to enter it in a graphics expo competition here in our country but unfortunately we did not have enough time to complete this project so we'll just use it as our showreel or include it in our portfolio. i've been on the web design and development for some years now but i'm very much inspired with the 3D and VFX industry (in movies, commercials, ect.). IMHO, i think this industry is now being realized in our country and will make a boom in the few years to come. And that would be a very great course to be with if my practise will acquire its requirements. Will definitely use your instructions and thanks for offering me your sample rig. Can you send it at fandalis@hotmail.com . will use this as our reference. It will be very great to learn from you all!

[skull_leader]

Hi Eek

Can you please send me the sample rig as well. I am always curious about and wanted to learn from people's rigs. My email is at pete@ziggystudio.com. (does the rig work in 3ds MAX 5.0?)

If you don't mind, can you also please explain the skinning technique you mentioned in step 3, in detail since I am quite interested because I prefer that exact approach (working with vertices instead of envelop) myself. I am just curious how you go about in that step in detail.

Thanks in advance.

[eek]

ok, ill send you both the rig. Its basically a production ready rig we use at work. Since i designed it, i can send it. Ive got a few tweaks fk/ik arms etc etc. And should get to you both sometime this week, prob wednesday or thursday.

it will work in max 5.

As for our skinning aproach, i wish i could explain more , its more the case of showing you rather than explaining so ill try and come up with a quick vid grab of the aproach.

eek

[skellybobbly]

Hi Eek,

Hows it going?

Whats happening with you these days, whats happening to Warhammer now?

Can you send me that rig too please?


Cheers


Jon

[eek]

yep ill send it to ya, working on a nice fk/ik switch.

[eek]

Just finished the IK/FK switch - works really well. Just having two buttons "ik on" "fk on" thats its. Took the idea from the Lowman rig. The blend is also seamless, so when you want ik you just hit the button, when you want fk bingo!. Ill finish this rig for you guys tonight.

eek

[skellybobbly]

Hi Eek,

That sounds sweet. Look forward to giving it a blast.

Have you checked out the puppetshop setup that Kees Rijnen is doing..thats got some damn fine features in it.

Check it here if you haven't seen it..

http://www.puppetshop.com/

Cheers


Jon

[eek]

That guy is crazy! ive been following his stuff too, he seems to use a lot of expressions in his rigs. I tried out one of his rigs but it exploded!, ill have to give puppet shop ago. My rigs will eventually go down the line of customization so you just set what you want and click go. But thats when i get better at maxscript.

Im just trying to get really good rig setups for the animator, ive pretty much covered everything and this was the last herdle. I might add pinnable hands and feet?

eek
p.s this rig might take a little longer,soz for the delay.

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.