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View Full Version : Adobe secretly adds anti-counterfieting technology into its software


googlo
01-11-2004, 12:08 PM
Adobe revealed it added the technology after a customer complained in an online support forum about mysterious behavior by the new $649 "Photoshop CS" software when opening an image of a U.S. $20 bill.

The link (http://www.hardwaregeeks.com/comments.php?id=1597&catid=4)

"The average consumer is never going to encounter this in their daily use," Mr. Connor said. "It just didn't seem like something meaningful to communicate."

:rolleyes:

dvornik
01-11-2004, 03:59 PM
Yeah, there's already a long discussion on the subject:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114118

There's also a 650-posts long thread on Adobe forums full of angry customers.

halo
01-11-2004, 04:31 PM
and so there should be.

peachstapler
01-11-2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by halo
and so there should be.

Quoted for pure and unadultered truth.

BiTMAP
01-12-2004, 05:49 AM
it pisses me off that "They" think we'll simply be okay with these HUGE sweeping changes there making.. BAH and i do hope that this either changes adobe or ruins them. No corperation should EVER think they can do this type of stuff and get away with it.

Fasty
01-12-2004, 06:04 AM
Thankfully unlike Windows, there are viable alternatives to Photoshop out there. Time to rediscover the wonders of Paint Shop Pro, me thinks!

Refracted
01-12-2004, 06:12 AM
Paintshop Pro version 8 has the same limitations :)

Jackdeth
01-12-2004, 06:41 AM
Whats wrong with you people. How does this ruin all of your lives? Don't even try telling me that scaning a new 20 bill is going to destroy your workflow...

Maybe if this world had a lot less assholes there wouldn't be any copy-protection of anykind... but the fact is people in general suck... and sucky people do shitty things.

Grow up and deal with it. Counterfitting is a huge problem, and some people who are using it to make money are terrorists. Anything that can be done to stop this problem is okay in my book.

Lets all get together and be mad when its something like "photoshop can't save images any more." That would be a ligit issue to fight over....not scanning a dam 20 dollar bill.....

Fasty
01-12-2004, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Refracted
Paintshop Pro version 8 has the same limitations :)

Oh well, at least it doesn't have product activation :beer:

Lorecanth
01-12-2004, 07:27 AM
principle jackdeath,
what happens if adobe starts to turn the same technology towards any other form of "unapproved" artistic endeavor ?

"Rarely do we find men who willingly to engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-68),

Adobe as with most companies is and was looking for an easier solution than to fight off a lawsuit. They were looking at the bottom line, trust me not for the good of the nation "to not fund terrorism".

Jackdeth
01-12-2004, 07:38 AM
Counterfiting isn't an artistic endeavor. It's quite clear in the laws that it is a crime.

The principle here is that evil people keep using technology for bad things... and because of that, companies have to install safety features.

Until this ACTUALLY effects any of your "artistic endeavors," I see this as a bunch of wasted debate.

Per-Anders
01-12-2004, 07:52 AM
well... it affects most people working in the corporate and news fields. i've frequently had to scan in money for financial presentations, videos, stings, bg gfx etc so i fully expect to be impacted because of this at some future date.

essentially this is inexcusable, the idea that people are forging money on an inkjet printer and normal stock is frankly laughable. only a child could be fooled.

seeing as photoshop is meant to be a profesional solution this is becoming more and more of a joke. imagine if when the disney corporation needed some more mickey mouse dollars (or whatever theyr'e called) for their theme parks they went to a large scale printers to do the job, that profesional printer then printed only to find that their "profesional" press printed out directions to some fraud website because what was being printed contained elements common to currency, that would be totally unacceptable (yet isn't it strange how they would stand a far better chance of making a decent quality forgery with a good press than anyone with a modern inkjet or laser printer)... now adobe try and tell me once again that the software you're selling is a "profesional" solution.

Jackdeth
01-12-2004, 08:12 AM
Thats a pretty weak argument. Isn't it ture that the Treasury web site is offering legit clip art to use for digital work?

Also, I doubt this effects any of the exisiting clip art out there that still can be used.

I mean come on...

And like I said before, I don't mind people getting mad over stuff, but this seems really petty.

BiTMAP
01-12-2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Jackdeth
Counterfiting isn't an artistic endeavor. It's quite clear in the laws that it is a crime.

The principle here is that evil people keep using technology for bad things... and because of that, companies have to install safety features.

Until this ACTUALLY effects any of your "artistic endeavors," I see this as a bunch of wasted debate.


The problem isn't that its already illeagle and the program limits that... it could be ANYTHING like that and it was limited. Its the start of something, all major changes start small. Communism worked at first, but they just kept changing things till wam, you realise wait this isn't what we wanted.

THe fact is that its still a choice to break the law, whats the point of the law if it cannot be broken once and a while to be tested? People where given free choice by nature, why will we let other MEN (no one any better then ourselves) force us to do what they deem right. yeah sure the law says its what they want, but the law is still just by another guy or woman like yourself. If they can write it, then you have the right to break it. I actualy encourage anyone to once and a while do something that is "wrong" and unnacceptible, make someone angry becuase you didn't do what they wanted. Why? becuase if everyone does it once and a while (withing some moderation) then you slow down the inivitible fact that one day we will ALL be drones. Mind you there are still us few who one, and we'll be the major ass cog in the machine of "civilization" but I REALLY don't care about corperations.

Jackdeth
01-12-2004, 08:24 AM
Give me a break. This isn't the beginning of the end. You guys are really throwing yourselves on the stake over nothing.

If maya had a limit where you couldn't model a Lexus because of copyright limits... then fine... lets all get mad and burn them at the stake.

But this is totally different. This is like being mad at having metal detectors at the entrance to a concert. Do they invade your privacy?...yes. But do they help stop bad people from doing bad things?...yes again.

I'll cry you a river when that big job comes in and you HAVE to have the new 20 bill in it and you get screwed. Until then.... relax and let this go...

There are much bigger fish to fry...

BiTMAP
01-12-2004, 08:28 AM
okay so we'll secretly add a cemical to your milk so that if you mix it with the wrong type of coccoa powder it will taste REALLY REALLY bad and not work.

Or if you mix your paint on someone elses brand palled it won't mix right. Or if you start to design an idea thats really need and original, it'll send it to my company so that we can get the patent before you.

Basicly its BECUASE they did it secretly, had they NOT, they would have been praised becuase its a neat technoligy and its good at fighting crime, but they decided it wasn't worth TELLING anyone... becuase people DO legaly scan money all the time.

Jackdeth
01-12-2004, 08:50 AM
Thats funny.. I didn't coco powder or house paint was a Federal crime?

But I think counterfitting is....


Again, you only provide more illrevlent and baseless arguments in you pursuit to to fight a non-issuse.

Atwooki
01-12-2004, 09:04 AM
JackDeth:
I'm with you totally on this one - haven't people got better/more cretive things to do with their time?

Somebody needs a 'presentation' of a banknote?
Just include this typed passage in the relevant copy:

'Example: $20 dollar bill'

Anybody able to read should be able to conjure up an image of the printed article, or at least know what your describing.

BITMAP:
In your other recent thread, you say that you 'hate' money - so I'd have thought you'd appreciate JackDeth's sentiments here?

Atwooki

holosynthetic
01-12-2004, 09:20 AM
only thing i noticed that would make me a bit mad besides not telling customers, is that they say it also slows the program down a bit..even if its only a little, a little goes a long way

BazC
01-12-2004, 09:51 AM
I have no idea whether proffessional counterfeiters would use Photoshop or not. If they do they'll just use version 7! This will have NO effect on their activities.

talos72
01-12-2004, 10:16 AM
Sorry, but a software company has no jurisdiction in my work place by telling me what I can or can not scan into the program-- including a bill. Neither it is Adobe's place to teach everyone about the evils of counterfeiting. Should the Xerox, HP and Epson corporations start installing weird devices to keep track on what you are printing?

What smells of rat is how companies want us to buy their products, but also start telling us how to use them afterwords. Leave it to the law enforcement and the FBI to do their job, as for the software developers just worry about working out the bugs and making money of your programs.

If someone is using Photoshop to print counterfeit bills, then they should have the book thrown at them. On the other hand, don't treat all your customers as "potential criminals".

Of course Adobe would want to keep the lid on this thing, because it is bad P.R. for them...and it apparently has become one.

BazC
01-12-2004, 10:54 AM
"Should the Xerox, HP and Epson corporations start installing weird devices to keep track on what you are printing?"

From what I've read they already have!

halo
01-12-2004, 01:22 PM
i can see how some people may think this isnt a problem, after all it probably doesnt affect them and they think its backing the right direction in stamping out counterfeiting. So whats the big deal?

Well, for starters, if you obey the rules, its not illegal to reproduce currency.

I have produced probably 1-2 images a year for financial and editorial clients that use money. The currency varies, but usually its the big players, £, euro, $. To date its only the $ that has any digital backup (and even then that limits your potential use), the others dont seem to be supported by any digital reproduction even if you follow all the links like rulesofuse.org and money(whatever).com. So immediately there is a problem. It means any scans or photo's I have of that the affect currency are useless as well. Perhaps even some stock photography as well.

So ok im stuffed in CS.....but probably like the counterfeiters i'll use PS7...

So essentially this harms my legitimate workflow or at least disturbs it, whilst offering no protection against conterfeiting.

It seems there is a general skewing of stats to suit peoples ends. Jackdeth seems concerned by the terrorism link rather than the 75% of casual counterfeiting that the relevant links quote. But do we really think either of this will end with CS? You can link anything to anything, and having endured terrorism for 30 years before the US even woke up to it, i find that argument distracting, over inflated and, if slightly legitimate, disturbing. Disturbing, because it seems another 1/2 baked idea, raises paranoia, yet is ineffetive, but restricts legitimate life.

On a larger aspect, is it right that adobe should implement at some cost of time or money, a feature that niether in its legitimate users interests or even illegal in the first place, that doesnt really do much to stop the problem, by a commercial interest group who expressly asked that the feature be hidden? Remember, the government didnt ask them, its not law either....So why harm the legit user?

I would also appreciate if people thought about things outside their own borders. Even if it did become illegal in your country, why should another country be bound by those laws? Why do we have to suffer this policy outside the US? Let the US suffer it, and we can get on with the rest of our lives....if the US note has to be locked down then so be it, we'll just use the old $20's instead. But i cant use old £20's or euros because there arent any.

Adobe has stated that this technology is being looked at for its entire range, so i guess all the media might think about that when they cant edit currency in video.

Put it this way, if Adobe turned around and said you cant use logo's or copyrighted material in their applications, would you think any different.
Because it does or is highly likely to affect me from my POV it isnt a great deal of difference, its limiting me in a legitimate use and goes no realistic length to actually stop what is supposed to.

flipnap
01-12-2004, 01:28 PM
well, first off, which i dont know if anyone has addressed here, but this code affects photoshops performance.. thats one of the reasons it was noticed in the first place.. so lets say in a year they have implemented an entire range of art works that will be denied if scanned (scan a monet, and its denied...etc) why not, isnt that counterfeiting? or lets say any other peice of ID, drivers license, passport, etc.. now you need a database with all that embeded.. now youve got a nightmare, bloated program with underthe hood code bogging it all down, all because of legislation, etc.. the point is, politics have no place in software of this sort. I totally agree that counterfeiting is at an all time high but im not sure this mover is entirely good.. anyway, why doesnt the printer companies just implement it into their printing chips.. guess we are on shaky grounds these days..

Mr_Smee
01-12-2004, 02:09 PM
Very well said Halo.

As he said it is LEGAL to reproduce money in the U.S. as long as you follow the rules. Adobe has chosen to decide for us what is legal and what is not.

AIPh Pretzel
01-12-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Mr_Smee
Very well said Halo.

As he said it is LEGAL to reproduce money in the U.S. as long as you follow the rules. Adobe has chosen to decide for us what is legal and what is not.

A worthy response, Mr. Smee.

Jackdeth, your rebuttal?

kwshipman
01-12-2004, 04:09 PM
LOL I think that hell just froze over because I agree with Jackdeth

if you read Adobe's responce in the other thread, you will see that this want Adobe's idea, but a request by different government agencies. I doubt that adobe will be the only to implement these measures. I am sure if you people keep emailing Adobe as I am sure you already have, they will find a better way of implementing anti counterfitting measures.

BUT YOU HAVE TO EMAIL THEM OTHERWISE ALL THIS COMPLAINING IF WORTHLESS!

jwmoebius
01-12-2004, 04:36 PM
what i find distracting about it is that this limitation is (afaik) powered by those tiny dots in a certain pattern on the money bills. soon you won't be able to scan a silly cartoon and send it to your mom anymore because everyone will start using these patterns to protect their oh so precious artwork.
<salty rant>
why must the rest of the world always suffer from us paranoia?
</salty rant>

Mr_Smee
01-12-2004, 04:51 PM
It won't scan Euros or Pounds also.

I think there are more governments, banks etc. to blame besides the U.S.

Originally posted by jwmoebius

<salty rant>
why must the rest of the world always suffer from us paranoia?
</salty rant>

FloydBishop
01-12-2004, 05:00 PM
http://images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10001000/10001899.jpg

Per-Anders
01-12-2004, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Jackdeth
Thats a pretty weak argument. Isn't it ture that the Treasury web site is offering legit clip art to use for digital work?

Also, I doubt this effects any of the exisiting clip art out there that still can be used.

I mean come on...

And like I said before, I don't mind people getting mad over stuff, but this seems really petty.

this is far from a weak argument. maybe in the world of vfx and cg you've never had to have a client sitting right on your shoulder while you work on site away from net connection and office (and i do mean right behind you all day and all night) though i find that hard to believe. having errors come up and time wasted, their time that they're paying quite a lot for in fact, is unnacceptable.

and of course this affects currently available stock art. after all it's only work produced in ps7 like any other work.

furthermore the treasury website only supplies american currency, from what i hear it's hit and miss if that works too... i.e. there are complaints on adobes website stating that it's not allowing them to load in treasury clip art, and even old peices of work produced in r7 and before.

essentially i think it's a very strong argument that photoshop is no longer a profesional package. you do not pay $650 for a limited peice of 2d image editing software that markets itself as profesional. you cannot seriously tell me that you think this is acceptable. imagine if a camera blanked out every time there was money in view, would that be profesional? saying you should get mint clip art for each shot you wanted to have money in is that acceptable?

so i still fail to see any weakness in my argument, it's based on real life experience, you wanted to know if it would affect any of us directly, well it affects me and many others i know, because it doesn't affect you means if anything that you should give foundation to your arguments first rather than poo-pooing the response because it wasn't to your liking.

igorstshirts
01-12-2004, 08:35 PM
Everyone knows that scanning a personal check and swapping out the name and bank acc. number in Illustrator is the way to go. Sheeesh... Don't you guys know anything?:D

Jackdeth
01-12-2004, 09:55 PM
Okay, everyone ready.... Lets all throw ourselves over the cliff to our deaths because photoshop can no longer deal with new $20 bills. The world has ended... and there is no reason to live anymore. Its software for amatures only now because all of our entire workflow pipelines have been runied. Lets run to the moutains and live off of the land...

But seriously. The Mint will provide clip art, so whats the horrible problem? Of course its a little lame because it slows things down, but I don't see any real issues that would render Photoshop into an un-useable tool anymore. Thats a really ignorant thing to even suggest.

But hey, if this really ruins all of your lives sooooooooo badly.... Then use something different because I could really give a rats ass. This isn't that big of a deal. Really.

I'll be making money off of mine, even if you can't scan money with yours....

flipnap
01-12-2004, 10:04 PM
as with everything like this, its not about the actual event. i mean, the real problem here isnt what happened with adobe and the money.. its what it could lead to.. jackdeath and other here are missing the crucial fear.. yeah, there is the issue of the current event with photoshop and the money.. yeah its slack and stupid and if it was an isolated case with nothing else to say, I wouldnt waste my time even respnding.. problem is, this is a pre-cursor of things to come.. you need to understand that the government buried this one right under your nose.. you say, "yeah well who cares, good for them.. counterfeiting is a problem and i dont do it so let it be".. problem is, this will go beyond the government implementing counterfeit protection.. once they get in.. you wont get them out.. you need to see this for the bigger picture, thats what the problem is.. not that you cant scan a 20 on your epson.. its that one day you might have to scan your eye ball just to log on... you have to understand that..

mushroomgod
01-12-2004, 10:07 PM
But seriously. The Mint will provide clip art, so whats the horrible problem? Of course its a little lame because it slows things down, but I don't see any real issues that would render Photoshop into an un-useable tool anymore. Thats a really ignorant thing to even suggest.

No...whats ignorant is that you belive that because you dont need the ability to use bank notes in photoshop that no one else does.

But hey, if this really ruins all of your lives sooooooooo badly.... Then use something different because I could really give a rats ass. This isn't that big of a deal. Really.

If you could'nt give a rats ass about it then why post exactly?

dvornik
01-12-2004, 10:22 PM
It doesn't matter if anyone NEEDS to scan money. It's a matter of personal freedom and civil liberties. Commercial companies shouldn't restrict the rights of their customers to protect the interests of governments and large financial institutions. If a company chooses to use technology that restricts it's customers rights it has to notify their customers in advance so they can make informed purchasing decisions.

As it was mentioned before scanning money is legal in the US.

halo
01-12-2004, 10:41 PM
perhaps it would help to know jack , that even though the swedish mint supply notes for this purpose, that they cant be used because this "feature" stops them.

But as you dont give a rats arse, the i suppose your attitude is "im alright jack" until some feature pops up that you dont like or monkeys with your workflow for whatever reason, in which case i would think it would be a short thread.

Jackdeth
01-12-2004, 10:50 PM
Everything has some sort of copyprotection built into it. From Nike shoes, to DVDs, to popular music.. there are laws that prevent you from stealing thier ideas, designs, or melodies. Look at napster. They were a technology that was being used to steal and distribute copyrighted songs. They had to change, and now they don't do that any more. So is everyone now going to boycott Napster because it is legit? Is that infringing on all of yourcivil liberties because it only has legal music on it now?

There are legals ways around this. They are providing clip art... So this is not a show stopper. The computer on your car has special locks in it so you can't go in there in modify the way the ABS works. There are millions of limits on everything that we use everyday. To act like this is a HUGE infringement on all of you "civil liberties" is the over-statement of the century. Unless you live in a cave with only photoshop and all you do is scan in mew money for your job...fine...maybe you are screwed then. But this isn't runing anyones life.

And what I didn't give a rats ass about is mnde_sadie claiming that Photoshop is no longer a useable professional program anymore. Thats the biggest overstatement..

But does this limit suck... of course it sucks. But thats also life, and we have to move on. When its a show stopper, then lets all band together. I understand all of your compliants, so don't think I'm just being an asshole. I'm just trying to be more relaxed about it. I'm not ready to light the torches and burn them down just yet...

dvornik
01-12-2004, 11:02 PM
It is a very serious infringement on liberties. Not because it makes inconvenient for people to get images of money, but because the mainstream image editing software they've bought (not only Photoshop) controls what kind of images they can edit. Even when it's perfectly legal for them to do so. Without any kind of warning.

moujot
01-12-2004, 11:38 PM
Hey,
what really bugs me here, apart from the fact i won't be able to counterfeit money anymore : ) , and more seriously apart from the fact it slows down the app, is really that they should not decide what can and what cannot be used as art material.
the "just didn't seem like something meaningful to communicate" is quite scary somehow.

mouj

pgp_protector
01-12-2004, 11:41 PM
Just rember Counterfiting is illegal, and so is child porn.

So when you are sent to the fbi site for opening a photo of your kid taking a bath. Dont complain, there doing it for your protection.

dvornik
01-13-2004, 12:21 AM
Scanning money is NOT illegal.

But you know - it's not too far-fetched. People got sued for using Kazaa after RIAA matched their IPs with their names and addresses. So technically without a firewall Photoshop could send your IP to whoever wrote the CDS code and then they know who you are and keep an eye on you.

moujot
01-13-2004, 12:25 AM
Well maybe i'm off topic a bit, and maybe i'm wrong, but wasn't there such a story about the AOM.exe, (adobe online manager) a soft that runs whenever you start an adobe app, and that you can't stop or it will make your app crash or something, and that was supposedly a spyware ?
(but i might be wrong there, i just seem to recall something like that..)

mouj

dmonk
01-13-2004, 12:36 AM
"It ain't what you do, it's how you do it."

Why all the secrecy.

dvornik
01-13-2004, 12:36 AM
Yes, AOM... Spyware in a sense that it contacts Adobe and transmits some sort of information. Without it Help would crash or something like that.

holosynthetic
01-13-2004, 02:10 AM
I don't own Photoshop CS, only version 7, but am intersted if anyone is going to try and get a refund because of this incident?

I would think that because they didn't let the customer know about the limiting software to let them make a purchase based on facts it would be the customers right to get a full refund?

Lorecanth
01-13-2004, 04:38 AM
Jackdeth,
Say I'm a freelancer doing a layout for a financial instituition that wants an artistic arangement of cash (something where the idea of using "clipart" is repulsive). Whether I get paid or not depends on my paint app being able to manipulate the image of cash.

Adobe just essentially ruined me.

Thats what it comes down to, a company that has built up a brand that people earn their living off of. Digital Image manipulation and "photoshopping" are synonomous. It has even gotten to the point where if a client learns you don't use photoshop, he/she will sometimes walk.

I love creating original imagery, and truly for 90 % of the cgtalk community, this doesn't matter because they use photoshop for other purposes.

It's a starting point, it always has to start somewhere.

thethule
01-13-2004, 05:54 AM
Im with you on this one Jackdeth, i find it laughable and ridiculous that people are getting their panties ina twist because of this. Go outside all of you and breath in deeply.....


Marc

dvornik
01-13-2004, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by thethule
Go outside all of you and breath in deeply.....

You're forgetting which forum you're on.

Jackdeth
01-13-2004, 06:17 AM
Thats it. I'm stating a new company that only deals in CG money clip art, and I'll spearhead the movement to repeal this evil act. We'll leave no stone unturned as we track down each programmer at Adobe...

WHOS WITH ME!!!!!



:beer:

dvornik
01-13-2004, 06:24 AM
You can just join some upcoming class suit. There's no way Adobe can withstand both Safecast/c-dilla controversy and this thing.

talos72
01-13-2004, 10:15 AM
What is this business with Adobe and c-dilla and a lawsuit? I am curious.

J.Svard
01-13-2004, 10:36 AM
I'm actually using Photoshop to do all our graphics at an on-line gambling site that's very large... I HAVE to be able to scan and manipulate money...
This is a strange thing to incorporate inside PS.

P_T
01-13-2004, 11:34 AM
nearly all counterfeit currency in Canada is now created with personal computers and ink-jet printers.

"We've seen a shift of what would normally be highly skilled counterfeiters using elaborate equipment to basically counterfeiters who need to know how to use a PC," Wall said.

is it really that easy to fake money in Canada or anywhere else? and is this the best solution they can come up with?

Aussie dollars are made of some sort of plastic, can't rip it and sure as hell can't fake it using ink-jets. lol :cool:

staticneuron
01-13-2004, 03:50 PM
What I want to know is how many people started using Photoshop CS already. I think if sales on CS stopped and people mailed back thier version of CS adobe would get the message.

leigh
01-13-2004, 05:20 PM
I own a license of CS and frankly this doesn't bother me in the slightest.

halo
01-13-2004, 05:46 PM
i own 4 licenses of photoshop, and quite a few multiples of their other apps. This pisses me off. (probably because i actually work with money....but to be honest even if i didnt i can see why how it could affect others and would be concerned about that)

would i send it back? No, because in adobe's EULA people have discovered that you also have to send back all your other previous versions in order for a refund. And anyway, apart from that its a worthy application, which makes the stink even more profound.

mushroomgod
01-13-2004, 05:52 PM
I own a license of CS and frankly this doesn't bother me in the slightest

thats fine then

as for the countless graphic designers and illustrators who work for say....newspapers (financial section or otherwize), corporate magazines and puplications or like J.Svard work on a online gambling site are now unable to use photoshop cs?


I can understand people on this board not getting upset by this, but this is cgtalk and 90% of its users are not working in fields that this might cause them problems....lets face it, its not going to get in the ways of painting youre newest specular map:hmm:

Iain McFadzen
01-13-2004, 06:11 PM
I'm not worried about it on its own merits, I am worried about the principle, and the dangerous precedent Adobe have set.

Adobe have taken it upon themselves to restrict a perfectly legal process (scanning banknotes is not illegal by any definition, nor is opening files containing images of banknotes), without any law requiring them to do so, at the request (implicit or explicit) of a third party (a banking consortium, or the US government, or both). What next? Perhaps the next third party will be Disney, attempting to stop any reproductions of Mickey being scanned in?

That is besides the performance considerations of having to 'check' every document opened or copy/pasted to determine whether or not you are 'allowed' to view it.

"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.... There is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such a twilight that we must be most aware of change in the air -- however slight -- lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
-- William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court Justice from 1939-1975

Jackdeth
01-13-2004, 06:13 PM
Wait a minute.. It is the other way around. I bet less than half of 1% of all CS users will be limited by that feature. Think about how many seats of software they have WORLD WIDE. Then divided that by ligit people who CAN'T use clip art (bought abroad or from the Feds), and I bet you will only have a very, very, very small group of people that got screwed. There are work arounds, but I think people like complaining more than they like problem solving. You are all smart people, use something else, or find a work around. You'll be fine.

Nothing will happen until mainstream users get effected.


Also, in a free market economy, you can all boycott them until they change it. That is your right... just as it is thier right to modify THIER software anyway they see fit.

MCGrund
01-13-2004, 08:06 PM
Strange how some "professionals" around this forum only see their own interests and not the large scale of given situation. Maybe you don't have to scan money (neither do I) but even as a not professional working person (I'm just a lousy student) I can see why some people might have to do so (legaly) to make a living. If you read all posts of this thread you should also realize that this is the case.
So what if you were a freelancer, bought photoshop and loose a client because the professional app you bought has a secret program installed that renders it impossible for you to make your job. What are you going to say:"Thank you Adobe!" or "F*ck you, I got children to feed"!

Originally posted by Leigh
I own a license of CS and frankly this doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Sorry, but that's a very short-sighted (or near-sighted :shrug: ) statement. What if you had to do a high-res texture of a dollar-bill someday. What do you think is faster scanning and optimizing it or painting it from scratch :p

@Jackdeth: Maybe you should try to not only see your own point but also the reasonable points other people in this thread make.


And like some people already pointed out everything starts small.

eevilmouse
01-13-2004, 09:39 PM
More than anything else what worries me about this is "where does it Stop?" True, not being able to scan money into Photoshop will not affect the majority of users. I have only scanned money once... and that was in PS7 (which I now will never upgrade) but what truly worries me is... Money is bad because itís a Federal Crime... What about Porn? What about Copyright infringement? Suddenly the next version of Photoshop is designed to detect if you have a Penis/exposed Breast on your Picture, and Bans that scan. How many people would be pissed if they could no longer use women in their pictures??

It all boils down to the Right of the user to Choose. Counterfeiting is bad... and if you do it, you should go to Jail. They already incorporated more anti-counterfeiting technology in the new 20 to make it so Ink jets & scanners can only fool the Stoned 15 year old working at 7-11. Why bother with all this?? Prelude to more perhaps?

Jackdeth
01-13-2004, 09:49 PM
"Where does it stop" is a valid point. "Not being able to scan money will ruin my career" is not.

I'm not saying I don't see you side of the argument. I'm just saying that less than 1% off all of the world wide users will be hurt by this.

I'm still flaming mad about "warp lights" not being in Maya from PowerAnimator. REALLY MAD. It did hurt my workflow a lot (much more so than scaning money could ever have hurt any of you), but I surived. I could have thrown a fit and claimed Maya "isn't a tool for professionals," but I took the more relaxed approach of just dealing with it. I can't make them change it, so why be mad about it forever and boycott them? How does that help me? Problem solve...

Instead, I suck it up, and move on... I hope you all can do the same too. Life will throw you some punches.... don't let them crush you.

Per-Anders
01-13-2004, 10:34 PM
Jackdeth seeing as you like to use my posts as reference, before you continue with your highly entertaining slander please could you let me know where i stated or insinuated this was an end of the world situation, or indeed any more than unnacceptable.

Also i would like to know where the insuation came that boycotting would come into it? Logically i may be forced into a situation where i may need to seek an alternative image editing solution for certain situations, but nothing more.

What are you basing your 1% statistic on? Does that include all the 14 year olds with cracked copies of photoshop? Or maybe sum total of photoshop users including non profesionals?

MCGrund
01-13-2004, 10:38 PM
@Jackdeth: Of course there are always reasons why people aren't 100% happy with new application releases because "they didn't include that long sought function or dropped an old very dear tool (like "warp lights"), or so. So, as you said we have to move on and adapt, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But in my opinion there is a big difference between changing the toolset and secretly installing a component that makes a very substanial (as scanning still is in some fields I guess) part of 2d work not impossible but constraints it in a very doubtful manner.
"Where does it stop" is a valid point but so is "Where does it start". That's why people are discussing this issue cause it could lead to even more constraints.
And I don't know why you're exaggerating so much. Of course some people are pissed off but I don't recall anybody having said anything about being mad forever. Forever is a damn long time. :cool:

thethule
01-13-2004, 10:41 PM
Does anyone know if its actually legal to scan money in? Cos as far as i know, it isnt. The mint have very set rules on using images of money. So maybe thats why adobe has included this "feature". And lets not forget that Canon colour copiers have had chips in em for years that stop you photocopying money.
So i dont think its short sighted for us to think that its ridiculous that people are up in arms over this matter. If you need to scan money in, chances are that its illegal to do so anyway whatever purpose you are using it for and the mint give you other options, i.e: using images of currency they have approved and provide.

Sorry eevilmouse, your arguments are paper thin. Where does it stop? Porn? What are you on about? This is MONEY not images of girls. People are so paranoid these days..."My god they wont let us do this..." "Freedom of choice! Freedom of choice!" Like was mentioned before, has no one considered that people who counterfit money may be terrorist organisations? But who cares right? Freedom of choice!! Do you really think this will lead to adobe banning scans of flesh tones? or anything more sinister? Get real, its just one feature that they put in to protect YOUR country. Man, i dont even live there and i get it. And dont forget, you DO have freedom of choice. If you dont like it use another product. Simple as that. No one is holding a gun to your head mate.

Regards,

Marc

Per-Anders
01-13-2004, 11:03 PM
it is perfectly legal to scan money in. in the uk there are laws regarding the queens image which affect which side of the note is allowed to be reproduced in printed form. in the US legally you may not reproduce paper currency at 1:1 scale and i believe similar rule is in effect in the UK

in the us:

http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:IaE0oVue3OIJ:www.piasc.org/PDF_files/CurrencyRepro.pdf+law+image+currency&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

i would have thought you'd know this marc, didn't you wonder what we were doing when we kept asking to borrow your cash :D

i agree the argument this is the start, is ridiculous and completely paranoid conspiracy theory stuff.

MCGrund
01-13-2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by thethule
...People are so paranoid these days...

Which is ecxactly the reason for this "additional" software. Take cover, terrorists are everywhere!!!

googlo
01-13-2004, 11:10 PM
Well, I don't think the real issue about all of this is loss of some funtionality but more so the principle of what is happening more and more these days and that's freedom being taken away from the individual.

That is something that doesn't get better with time.

It is simply wrong.

I think people in the art community are especially sensitive to this kind of thing because their craft tends to be one of expression and any kind of hampering of that feels very threatening.

What I don't like is how kids and even young adults of today are somewhat accepting of this kind of thing because they have been born into it and don't know any better and so just accept it or treat it very lightly.

MCGrund
01-13-2004, 11:23 PM
@googlo: Very well said :love:

thethule
01-13-2004, 11:41 PM
Yeah, i knew you were doing that Per, but since i scanned mine in PS7 and printed it on my desktop bubblejet, you could have simply asked me for the PSD :p
Joking aside, i think you are wrong about the laws in the UK mate. I saw a program on it where they mentioned ,among other things that i cant quite remember and am too lazy to google out now, that its illegal to have ANY banknote in any advertisment of any sort flat on. That the note has to be bent, folded, whatever. That special permission has to be granted to have a flat note printed and that it would have to be heavily modified. Also, it is true that canon colour scanners have been chipped for ages to not allow you to photocopy notes, so i dunno.... im gonna have to disagree with you there.....just like in the good old days!

Marc

thethule
01-13-2004, 11:44 PM
And Googlo, they are doing it to safeguard YOUR money and YOUR country. Why would you be against that? Now, on the other hand, if some parents in the USA suggested we insert ships in kids teeth to keep track of em at all times....oh, wait. Now THAT has me up in arms.

Marc

Per-Anders
01-13-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by thethule
Yeah, i knew you were doing that Per, but since i scanned mine in PS7 and printed it on my desktop bubblejet, you could have simply asked me for the PSD :p
Joking aside, i think you are wrong about the laws in the UK mate. I saw a program on it where they mentioned ,among other things that i cant quite remember and am too lazy to google out now, that its illegal to have ANY banknote in any advertisment of any sort flat on. That the note has to be bent, folded, whatever. That special permission has to be granted to have a flat note printed and that it would have to be heavily modified. Also, it is true that canon colour scanners have been chipped for ages to not allow you to photocopy notes, so i dunno.... im gonna have to disagree with you there.....just like in the good old days!

Marc

yes, you're right you do have to manipulate the image before reproduction in the uk too, i forgot that. however i still stand by what i say. it's perfectly legal to scan in money. what's not legal is to reproduce money.

i would have loved to have your ps7 scanned money... sadly cs can't actually open old or stock imagery of money either, even when it's been manipulated apparently... allegedly even when it's from a legitimate source (the treasury) and is meant to work with the new technology... but apparently agian doesn't. I think this is one of the the real sticking points, not being able to open up older images even.

of course if you were to give me the bubblejet printout... i'm sure even photoshop wouldn't be fooled by that, so that would be perfectly safe :D

mushroomgod
01-14-2004, 12:07 AM
And Googlo, they are doing it to safeguard YOUR money and YOUR country. Why would you be against that?

thats a fairly short sighted veiw of things.. you could argure that it would be a good thing to ban dvd/cd writers or even photocopyers because if one person can do illigal things by copying then everyone can. And if everyone can then we should ban it?

Jackdeth, you may be compleatly correct with youre 1% figure (who knows anyway), but if you take the time to read this thread or even head over to the adobe forums you will see hundreds of professional complaining and very few saying what a great idea....1% of the professional photoshop user base could be 1000s of people anyway:D

"Where does it stop" is a valid point. "Not being able to scan money will ruin my career" is not.
who said its going to ruin there career? there are alot of people who are pissed off by this, but I dont think theres a single person who feels there career is somhow ruined. like yourself and warp lights im a little pissed off

DirtySkillet
01-14-2004, 12:19 AM
Dosn't seem to bother photoshop elements....

It came in fine! Well, I dunno. It works fine for me, maybe elements is the retarded version, and can't pick it up.

halo
01-14-2004, 12:30 AM
yes, to date its only PS CS, but Adobe have said they'll look to complete product range inclusion in the future. Perhaps they wanted to hit any reaction head on. Perhaps they'll leave it as is, but i doubt that. What I doubt even less, is any user consultation.

leigh
01-14-2004, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by twisted-ankle
Sorry, but that's a very short-sighted (or near-sighted :shrug: ) statement. What if you had to do a high-res texture of a dollar-bill someday. What do you think is faster scanning and optimizing it or painting it from scratch :p

Photoshop is not the only image editing program I own, so it really doesn't bother me. I think that people are far too quick to scream about "censorship" in cases like this. Sure, it's a little surprising that it was "snuck" in there, but I think people are perhaps getting a little too upset over it.

Jackdeth
01-14-2004, 02:17 AM
I agree. First they run around as if they are on fire... and now they claim only to be a little mad. Which is it?

Heres the deal. It okay to be mad at them because they stuck it in. Fine. But this is no reason to get all pissy about. This is no reason to claim that photoshop isn't "preofessional." It sucks...but that is all.

Its a bummer... oh well. We will live and prosper regardless.

DigiLusionist
01-14-2004, 05:07 AM
People are pissed cause they can't use PS to open up currency files? How often is that necessary for CG artists? Now, for counterfeiters, I can see the inconvenience. For anyone else, get over it...

halo
01-14-2004, 01:18 PM
this is a post at the adobe forums....it probably sums it up better than i could

"your missing the point ...im not trying to make counterfeit notes...i perhaps need to manipulate a note so it looks like a pile of currency for instance. The obvious starting point is a note, rather than recreating the whole thing. There is a plentitude of reasons why you would need to work with currency.

http://www.encoreillustration.com/Search2.asp?ARTIST_NAME=Peter+Crowther+Associates

and if you think futher about the casino image perhaps it would be possible that a client would ask for a pile of cash next to the chips?

or perhaps your producing websites with currency

http://www.shakespeare.org.uk/main/1/16

(noticed the reproduced with kind permission of the Bank of England...)

or perhaps you would like to photograph or retouch currency in a creative manner...getty images seems to think theres a significant market for it

http://creative.gettyimages.com/source/search/resultsmain.asp?source=quickSearch&brand=allbrands&selImageType=7&chkLicensed=on&chkRoyaltyFree=on&txtSearch=pound+note&UQR=oeqcij

if that link doesn't work do a search for paper currency or britich currency...should bring up only about 200 images...

so are you trying to say that any of that work is illegitimate or un commercial or pointless? This is my point and others.

So, yes theres ways around it, we can use older or other software, so can the counterfeiters...where does it get us exactly? Do you think that counterfeiters would not persevere, and why is it legitimate users have to when everything is above board and legal, permission included? "

but then if it doesnt affect you, and you couldnt care less about other peoples problems, and you cant still see that people need to work with currency legitimately and that their worklflows are spolied, which is why they're upset then i guess the points made will always be lost on people who are just uninterested.

halo
01-14-2004, 01:22 PM
at the end of the day, i dont want to spend my time complaining about the people who are just complaining about the people who have complaints.

DigiLusionist
01-14-2004, 04:04 PM
Again, how often do any of you guys REALLY do this? And, no, I'm not going to raise up the banner of outrage over such safeguards to counterfeiting. The problem is a real one, and the world economy is much higher on my list of concerns than casino-oriented graphics production...

thethule
01-14-2004, 04:24 PM
I think we should lay this to rest now. We had a good time, we laughed, we cried, we had fun, we despaired. But now, a new topic is upon us.
Who here will bring one forward?!?

halo
01-14-2004, 04:37 PM
DigiLusionist - go back and read my posts, that should answer your question

googlo
01-14-2004, 05:10 PM
Digi,

That's the problem though. Does this kind of imposing action REALLY do anything to stop counterfeiting? You think the people out there who are causing this kind of problem that make nations take notice over the integrity and safety of their money supply are going to be stopped because they can't open an image of some country's bank note in the new photoshop?!

My guess is no and in the end all that this has created is another encroachment onto the freedoms of the individual for the sake of some larger mass control mechanism that can't get at the individuals it really needs so it targets ALL individuals.

I've heard people say that it's for the protection of the individual.

It is not. It's for the protection of the large organizations that care less for the individual and more for themselves. It comes at the individuals expense really.

Honestly, if it were for the individual then why is it assumed the individual is doing something wrong by copying a bank note and hence preventing it as if the activity is criminal in the first place?!

Can't people admit that it is actually somethign that is wrong but maybe necessary simply because there isn't a better way at the moment or cheaper way?

I think a lot of people won't admit that because then they would have to agree that it's really wrong in the first place.

Also,


I asked myself why people who use photoshop would be upset about this kind of think putting aside issues of practicality like functionality or making images of money.

I think people who are bothered by this are so much so because photoshop is used as a tool for creativity and expression, communication of ideas, like painting, or sculpting, or writing, etc..

ADobe may look at their software like it's just some kind of program, but to it's users it's more of a medium for communication.

Suddenly droppin some kind of limiting schema on for the sake of controlling empires feels like a form of limiting of free speech (realistically that's what it is regardless of the security reasons for it).

How is that good? Even if it does protect people from casual counterfeitters, does that make it ok then, from a philosophical perspective?

No, it doesn't.

I don't understand how people can look at this and think it's nothing at all, or just an inconvience. What is symoblizes, in my opinion, is something very bad.

How can people argue against that?

thethule
01-14-2004, 05:21 PM
Googlo,


Ummmm....

It is not. It's for the protection of the large organizations that care less for the individual and more for themselves. It comes at the individuals expense really.

What organisations are being protected by this other than the US Mint obviously? Whos being protected here?

I don't understand how people can look at this and think it's nothing at all, or just an inconvience. What is symoblizes, in my opinion, is something very bad.

Something bad eh? So whats next Googlo? What are the adobe repressors going to do next? Im seriously asking. If this is a symbol of something bad to come, tell us like what.

I know i said we should put this to rest, but this last post is NUTS


Regards,


Marc

Mr_Smee
01-14-2004, 05:35 PM
The British mint, the Canadian mint, the Japan mint and the Euro mint etc. The CDS software was created by the Central Bank Counterfeit Deterrence Group which is a group of banks from around the WORLD. This is not something created by just the U.S. government.

The world is not coming to an end because of this of course. But because it doesn't alter your space on the planet you and some other people don't care. There are other people here that it DOES effect.

Originally posted by thethule
Googlo,


Ummmm....



What organisations are being protected by this other than the US Mint obviously? Whos being protected here?

googlo
01-14-2004, 05:46 PM
Thule,
What organisations are being protected by this other than the US Mint obviously? Whos being protected here?

In the article it was stated that "Adobe Systems Inc. acknowledged on Friday it quietly added technology to the world's best-known graphics software at the request of government regulators and international bankers to prevent consumers from making copies of the world's major currencies."

I wonder if most people are thinking that this is just a United STates thing?

Something bad eh? So whats next Googlo? What are the adobe repressors going to do next? Im seriously asking. If this is a symbol of something bad to come, tell us like what.

I don't think Adobe even designed the program within their program, I doubt they know it's inner workings in full.

It's not about what happens next, it's just about what is happening now. And I don't think it's nuts at all discussing this kind of thing and it's philosophical implications.

People are doing this kind of thing at this site ALL THE TIME via the pictures they render and movies they critique and talk about. It is the basis for this kind of industry.

Edit:

Awe you got in before me :)

zandoria
01-14-2004, 09:14 PM
First I heard of this was in this thread. So we immediately put some money into the scanner . We have PhotoshopCS in our department at work.

There was no message, the scan came in just like any other image would... So if it really is an anti counterfeiting measure it isn't working :shrug:

halo
01-14-2004, 09:30 PM
it only works with some new notes

and FEI here, someone at adobeforums has got written permssion from the Bank of England to reproduce notes for a design, he is authorised to do whatever he likes within their rules.
The Bank of England has also stated that in NO WAY DO THEY DISTRIBUTE SUBSTITUTE NOTES FOR REPRODUCTION, they expect people to simply use a normal note.
They said they would not send out such a note as well (as it would be easy to compare and see where the trigger features on the note are i suspect).

Adobe UK say there is no way of disabling the protection and they have been quoted as saying they have no control over it.

dvornik
01-14-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by googlo
It's not about what happens next, it's just about what is happening now.

Damn right. I can't believe some people who call themselves artists can be so indifferent to freedom of expression. It's like saying that you don't care about freedom of assembly cause you never go to demonstrations.

halo
01-15-2004, 11:43 PM
http://theregister.co.uk/content/4/34916.html

:)

Layer01
01-16-2004, 11:37 AM
well i agree with those of you who think this is a problem. in its self its not the end of the world...its annoying for some, but not terminal. what is UNACCEPTABLE is the people who say "sure whatever, i dont mind, as soon as it does become serious THEN i'll act"
now this doesnt mean that you should burn down adobe HQ, but it does mean OPEN YOUR EYES, SMELL THE ROSES however you wish to say it. this is just the tip of the iceberg, if you honestly think that you can sit back and just wait for the time when it does bother you, and then take action. then your seriously deluded.
you say "they just want our protection" HA! protection my ass! if they wanted your protection then they would outlaw guns. and dont even think about giveing me any of this "people kill peole, guns dont kill people" BS. you say, oh haveing metal detectors at schools is normal, its inconvenient, but its ok....HELLO....WAKE UP! no one else in the world (well maybe some other places :P ) has to under go rigourous background checks just to get to class.

your saying what the hell has this got to do with PS CS? well directly nothing. but its just another part of a picture so big you cant even see it. your "freedom" is so fake its not even funny anymore. they want to put chips in PC's soon ( http://209.157.64.200/focus/news/707684/posts) so that they can stop "piracy" "The OS will only boot if nothing is "amiss", that means no "unauthorized components or content" ok great now we are safe all we need to do now is let them choose what is "unauthorized or not" phew..you know for a minute there i was worried.

now i realize that this is not PS CS related but it just fits right in there with what they are doing...controling what you do. sure counterfiting money is bad...but so is smokeing and are they trying to stop you from doing that? "yes they are, they stopped advertiseing it in magazines etc.." WAKE UP! turn on you TV (better still turn it off) and choose a show chances are poeple smoke there asses off in it. now which do you think is more likely to affect children, magazines adds or their favorite TV characters? see its not "real" adds but it works the same way for the companys, and its no accident that there is so much of it.

now those are just a FEW things to get you thinking. see now where you precious freedom is? your safe from the baddies world? your uncle sam is really a big soft teddy bear there to protect me brain washed dribble?

try thinking with YOUR head for a change...look beyound your narrow views.

thethule
01-16-2004, 11:56 AM
....but it does mean OPEN YOUR EYES, SMELL THE ROSES however you wish to say it. this is just the tip of the iceberg...

Ok, i dont get this. No one has clarified this for me. WHAT is just the tip of the iceberg? WHAT happens from here? WHAT does this have to do with the government controlling you? HOW is this a big brother act. Stop claiming this is stopping freedom of expression, stop saying we should get mad about this and explain why? Maybe im the one who is deluded but i just dont see how this will move on from here to something more sinister? Is adobe going to inset a small program in photoshop 2008 that will send back any image you create to the central world archive so that george bush and his cowboys can look for al queda clues? Will they stop you scanning porno like someone mentioned? Oh god....maybe they will not let photoshop save anything you create thats not worth saving.
By all means get mad at REAL big brother acts. get mad at spyware software that gets installed onto your machine. Get mad at microsoft for spying on you for their own gain. But i just dont see how this is sinister. I just dont see WHO is profiting from this? The mint? They make the damn money, they should be allowed to protect it. Adobe? Whos benefiting financially from this?
Its just a lot of flapping of the arms for no reason, in my opinion.

Regards,

Marc

Iain McFadzen
01-16-2004, 12:29 PM
The question you should be asking yourself is:

Is it Adobe's place to be policing its customers, above and beyond what the law requires of them?

I particularly like this quote, taken from a user on Adobe's own forum:

I believe that the most important perspective from this event is that governments, and not just the US government, are being slowly replaced by a defacto government consisting of major corporate interests, who do not have to answer to any voters or bound by the Bill of Rights.

That corporate entities can and did usurp legitimate government regulation of reproduction rights to it's own currency can and must be seen for what it is: the intent of corporate domination of our lives, down to the tiniest detail, so far as technology is capable. It must also be seen as the wholesale desertion of the duties and obligations of certainly two, if not all three, arms of American government to the American people.

It might well be raving paranoia, but it might not. The point is though, if we believe the latter and turn out to be wrong, we've lost nothing. On the other hand, if we believe the former and turn out to be wrong, and this is the thin edge of a dangarous wedge, then we're in trouble.

MCGrund
01-16-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by thethule
HOW is this a big brother act.
Well, it's a big brother act, cause big brother Adobe (and other companies) tells you what you're allowed to do and what not (even though it isn't illegal by law). That's not their business there are constitutions and laws for these things.
All this terrorism stuff is pretty Big Brother like, too (of course on a different scale). Terrorists here, terrorists there who cares about his rights as long as he is safe, haha. But I don't want to get political here (wrong forum).

Originally posted by thethule
i just dont see how this will move on from here to something more sinister?...
Get mad at microsoft for spying on you for their own gain. But i just dont see how this is sinister. I just dont see WHO is profiting from this?
Well, in my opinion you pretty much much answered your first question by yourself. Because several years ago with Windows 3.1 or so. Who had thought that a company would implement spyware and get away with this as easily as Microsoft did. You never know what's going to happen. And as long as people have this "I don't give a $hit!" attitude and let everything pass things are getting worse for sure.
As for the profit side, that's not so important imo because when they take away my given rights they take away my given rights, whether someone profits or not doesn't change anything about this. But you can be sure that someone is profitting by this. Money makes the world go round and nothing comes for free.

googlo
01-16-2004, 05:14 PM
By all means get mad at REAL big brother acts. get mad at spyware software that gets installed onto your machine.

How is that any different than what Adobe has done?! They basically installed software with their own software that they didn't create for the purpose of a third entity to check exactly what it is that is being opened up in photoshop one's computer..

ANd WITHOUT TELLING THEIR CUSTOMERS!

That's EXACTLY like spyware..

I just dont see WHO is profiting from this? The mint? They make the damn money, they should be allowed to protect it. Adobe? Whos benefiting financially from this?

Not everything is about profitting, sometimes it's just about control.

Is adobe going to inset a small program in photoshop 2008 that will send back any image you create to the central world archive so that george bush and his cowboys can look for al queda clues? Will they stop you scanning porno like someone mentioned? Oh god....maybe they will not let photoshop save anything you create thats not worth saving.

Why not? If it's to protect people or enforce laws why should people care? That's exactly what has happened with the counterfeiting idea.

googlo
01-16-2004, 05:20 PM
Thethule,

I should also point out that I don't think your questions are bad at all or that you are, I actually like it. People NEED to discuss these kind of things and honestly debate them in my opinion, pro and con.

thethule
01-16-2004, 05:38 PM
Absolutely. Thats what the forum is for. I dont totally dissagree with you either Googlo, i see where you are coming from, but i just dont see this instance as that big a deal that's all.


Twisted ankle. Do we know for a fact that its legal to scan notes in? No we dont. Because its illegal to photocopy them, see http://www.faqs.org/faqs/coin-collecting/paper-money-faq/section-43.html , and i am willing to bet that its also illegal to scan them in. If thats so, then i believe they are perfectly in their right to do not allow you to do it.

I get angry when i find out a program is reporting to its boss about me without me knowing and i either not allow it do so with my firewall or i uninstall it. THAT is spyware. This is not. Its stopping you from doing something that you shoudnt be doing anyway. Lots of programs have lots of features installed in them that are not mentioned in the manual or faqs online.

Marc

Mr_Smee
01-16-2004, 05:53 PM
Again, here is the link telling you what you can do:

http://www.secretservice.gov/money_illustrations.shtml

Please read that instead of quoting something that is not true.

Again. It is legal to reproduce money if you follow those guidelines. Pretty simple.

So it is legal to copy, scan, alter etc. as long as you follow the guidelines.


Originally posted by thethule
Absolutely. Thats what the forum is for. I dont totally dissagree with you either Googlo, i see where you are coming from, but i just dont see this instance as that big a deal that's all.


Twisted ankle. Do we know for a fact that its legal to scan notes in? No we dont. Because its illegal to photocopy them, see http://www.faqs.org/faqs/coin-collecting/paper-money-faq/section-43.html , and i am willing to bet that its also illegal to scan them in. If thats so, then i believe they are perfectly in their right to do not allow you to do it.

I get angry when i find out a program is reporting to its boss about me without me knowing and i either not allow it do so with my firewall or i uninstall it. THAT is spyware. This is not. Its stopping you from doing something that you shoudnt be doing anyway. Lots of programs have lots of features installed in them that are not mentioned in the manual or faqs online.

Marc

googlo
01-16-2004, 06:00 PM
Lots of programs have lots of features installed in them that are not mentioned in the manual or faqs online.

Yes buy how many of them are designed to actively inspect what you are doing to make sure it complies with an international consortium of governments and their laws? And if what you are doing doesn't comply, even if it's legal, interferes or in some cases stops what you are doing? Or worse assumes what you are doing IS for illegal reasons?

Personally, I think we are going to be seeing more and more of this kind of thing until enough people start speaking out about it.

thethule
01-16-2004, 06:03 PM
I stand corrected. But also stand by my opinion on this matter. :)


Marc

Mr_Smee
01-16-2004, 06:17 PM
I always welcome anyones opinion. We may not agree but that is o.k. :beer:

It just gets annoying seeing misinformation on this subject. Plus I'm a little grumpy this morning!

Have a good day.

Originally posted by thethule
I stand corrected. But also stand by my opinion on this matter. :)


Marc

JohnD
01-16-2004, 11:34 PM
Why the hell would anyone be upset over this? Grow up.

eevilmouse
01-16-2004, 11:37 PM
Most of you seem to be missing the Central point of the outrage.. Or at least from your posts it seams that way.

thethule- It seems that everytime someones Rights are Squished in this country latley they Use the Excuse "were Rooting out Terrisim" well tell you what.. Homelad security Might as well be Named Big Brother, Or the SS. Hell for you Sci Fi Fans out there it IS KnightWatch (ever compaired their Posters?) Not to Rant, but Protect me with out ****ing me.. the "its for your own good ploy" dosnt work on me.

Fact is Adobe added it without telling, and tried to snowball people. What will they ad in covertly Next?

The fact that "it only slows the Program a little" dosnt seem to worry anyone else, I find that a little odd.

JohnD
01-16-2004, 11:44 PM
Mouse,
Can you please tell me which of your rights have been stripped from you?

dvornik
01-17-2004, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by JohnD
Can you please tell me which of your rights have been stripped from you?
To be able to manipulate any images you damn please on your own computer. Not only this - manipulate images that are perfectly legal for you to open and edit.

Layer01
01-17-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by JohnD
Why the hell would anyone be upset over this? Grow up.

dude this has nothing to do with growng up. and all you people who dont seem to get this, most of us wont be affected in some way or another by this adobe issue....and the adobe syware, whatever you want to call it is NOT THE POINT! hear that NOT THE P-O-I-N-T! as in it in its self is not going to harmfully affect most of us. but its what they are doing that IS the point.

imagine this, a PC is fitted with a small spyware app that lets them know what you are doing...nothing personal, just specs of your pc etc..."ok thats fine they can see my specs"....now after getting that in they make it a bit more active in the next release, so now it sends out a list of what your most used apps are and your specs, again nothing personal...."still ok with me, i will but up with this even though it irritates me a bit".....now they upgrade it some more now it lets em know where you surf, what music you listen to, what movies you watch, what apps you use, when you used them and fot how long...."a little bit invasive but i guess i will live with it, it sucks but hey thats life right?".....now it doesnt let you instal "unauthorized" software, suddenly you have a serious breach of your oh so precious "freedom"...."but hey i dont use pirate stuff"...ok fine..but it goes beyond that because the thing is in place now you'll never getrid of it, what are you going to do not buy a PC? they will be able to choose what you can and cant do entirely....maybe then you'll make a fuss....but it'll be too late.


just a hypothetical situation to illustrate how a small thing can soon becom a BIG thing....like they say


Give em an inch and they will take a Mile..

so if you dont protest when the warning signs are going off, what do you think they will do? stop..because they have what they want.? or maybe milk out every bit of control they can get little by little.

JohnD
01-17-2004, 02:32 AM
Dvnorik,
Can you give me an example of how this has drasitically changed your life in some way. Were you not able to to perform your job or lost a freelance opportunity. An example would validate your statement.

I'm really flabergasted by the stuff I read on this website sometimes. I'll tell you...I'm a conservative. I'm all for limiting the power the government has and the less it's involved in my life, the happier I am. But you really have to use your head and some common sense. Instead of going off the "X-Files" deep end and into "1984" conspericies and putting a software company through the ringer just because under the suggestion of government officials, they now make their software rendered useless to potential counterfieters, maybe you should be more upset about the millions upon millions of your tax dollars that go toward needless government funded programs.

Everyone is entitled to their gripes, but I have yet to see any legit ones. Can one person please give me an example of how this impacted their lives in a hurtful way. Lost money. Lost employment opportunities.....or just lost currency copying capablilties.

JohnD
01-17-2004, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by twisted-ankle
Which is ecxactly the reason for this "additional" software. Take cover, terrorists are everywhere!!!


Hey Twisted,
Let me know when a couple of your buildings are blown down by some suicide terrorists. We'll trace the money back and see if counterfieted Marks were used for some of the funding.

slaughters
01-17-2004, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by JohnD
Everyone is entitled to their gripes, but I have yet to see any legit ones. Can one person please give me an example of how this impacted their lives in a hurtful way. Lost money. Lost employment opportunities.....or just lost currency copying capablilties. I'm definitly not paranoid. There is no big government conspiracy. Adobe was just doing a CYA to prevent some idiot from suing them in the future when they get arrested for forgery (it's not my fault, Adobe made the tools, I'm just a victim)

Adobe has a right to do this, BUT they did it in the poorest way possible, lying by ommission to their customers. They have put their customers in the position of thinking, "If they lied about this, why not about other things?"

P.S. JohnD - Here are just a few things I 've heard about how this "impacted" the life of others. I'm sure you have read and heard simular things.

1) I've heard one person say that they were contracted to make a comercial with dollars blowing across the screen (one of those powerball/lotto commercals). I guess he can do it if he does not have PhotoShop CS.

2) People who sell texture CD's with hi-rez images for print ad manipulate have now had some of their textures invalidated if their customers own PhotoShop CS. This will increase their support calls from angry customers, which in turn reflects a higher cost for their business.

3) In my job I have made fake money by replacing the portrait of Jackson with the photo of a boss, or co-worker. I guess if I had owned PhotoShop CS I would not have been able to.

4) I ran across a web site which posts rare dollar bill mis-prints. Their business is showing the mis-print in the clearist possible way to their customers. They do have examples of the new $20.00. They had to scan it in with something besides PhotoShop CS. They were glad they had not upgraded yet. They have no plans of doing so in the future.

ACFred
01-17-2004, 05:18 AM
Well, it sounds like a good idea to me. As far as I'm concerned, whatever protections they add to keep people from doing something illegal is OK by me. I think it's cool that they didn't tell anyone and I'm very glad they don't divulge what exactly is being used to identify the scanning of money.

In fact, I wish they'd do the same thing with DVDs. I think it would be great if the DVD duplication software sent an e-mail to the feds and studio lawyers whenever a DVD was duplicated or ripped, complete with IP address (assuming the computer is hooked up to the net somehow). Any buffer to keep jackasses from stealing that which should not be stolen.

Don't tread on my rights, but tread the hell all over the rights of criminals and intended criminals. (OK, a little harsh, but the point is made.)

It may or not be a slippery slope. What is done in the name of Homeland Security is definitely a steep incline covered with motor oil, so let's pay attention to the offenses that actually impact our daily lives and not the rare money dealer or counterfeiter. Spending too much time on this tiny stuff might make you miss the big, intrusive laws later.

Alec

JohnD
01-17-2004, 06:31 AM
Thanks Slaughters. That's exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. I wasn't hoping that no one would come back with examples...i really wanted some. I myself had a freelance job a year ago where I needed to make falling money. If that came around today, well, I guess just one job down. No biggie. Not the end of the world. I'm pretty sure this will not effect the vast majority of people who use this software, and for the ones that do, I can't imagine it taking down any businesses. And as Jack has said, there is clip art of currency that can be purchased.

dvornik
01-17-2004, 07:04 AM
Alright, so what's your point?

You don't want to hear about people who are actually affected. You think that people who are not affected but object to the restrictions imposed on their freedom of expression are a bunch of immature crybabies...

Whatever man. No it won't take down any businesses. So what. Noone was conerned about the negative impact it's going to have on the world economy in the first place.

Mudvin
01-17-2004, 07:07 AM
There's no law that deny me to open and edit any image. And i want to do this. For making "funny money", for example, with another face instead of Linkoln, for example.

And...i don't understand - are they really want to stop counterfeiting this way? Seriously? What about the Gimp then? Corel Photo-Paint? Shake or AfterFX at last? Lol...what a stupid men...again they doing things from the wrong end...

MCGrund
01-17-2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by JohnD
Hey Twisted,
Let me know when a couple of your buildings are blown down by some suicide terrorists. We'll trace the money back and see if counterfieted Marks were used for some of the funding.
Hi John, it is really sad what happened that day and I was very shocked when I saw this incident on TV and of course terrorism has to be stopped. I didn't want to hurt any feelings, maybe I just expressed myself in the wrong manner. Sorry bout this.
I just have the feeling that terrorism might be (and I guess already has been) used as an excuse for bad and dumb actions. And that's a danger, too.
And come on, you don't really think that this Photoshop "upgrade" will stop any terrorist from forging money. Imo that's pretty a pretty weak reasoning for implementing this software.

@ACFred: Yeah, stopping people from doing illegal things is OK but I think you miss the point as scanning money and manipulating it isn't illegal.

@JohnD: As far as I understand opening clip art of currency is also not possible.

I think Adobe should have informed their customers about this implementation, so that people relying on have to scan money once in a while wouldn't have to go through all this hassle.

Layer01
01-18-2004, 01:33 AM
Originally posted by JohnD
Hey Twisted,
Let me know when a couple of your buildings are blown down by some suicide terrorists. We'll trace the money back and see if counterfieted Marks were used for some of the funding.

you dont honestly think that terrorists will be useing counterfit money printed useing photoshop do you?

and you know your not the only ones who get attacked, so stop useing it as your all access exuse to do anything and everything. it has nothing to do with adobe and what they are doing.

"JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Shai Shapiro, a Jerusalem paramedic for five years, has stopped counting the number of terrorist attacks he has worked.
He guesses it's about 20. "

JohnD
01-18-2004, 05:26 AM
Hey Twisted,
You didn't hurt any feelings so no apologies.

Layer 01, sorry, but your statement is very assinine. It definitely has alot to do with terrorism. The last thing I think Adobe wants on it records is if funding was tracked and happened to show that their product was used to make some phoney bills. That's the main reason they did this and i think someone mentioned it early. They don't want to be sued. I can't say that I blame them.

And how many other topics have I talked about using this as an excuse to do anything? What the hell are you talking about?

Layer01
01-18-2004, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by JohnD
Hey Twisted,


Layer 01, sorry, but your statement is very assinine.

And how many other topics have I talked about using this as an excuse to do anything? What the hell are you talking about?

assinine...interesting word. though its asinine.
think about what your saying
there are so many more things that you could potentially sue adobe over, that if they were doing this to "cover their tracks" then they would have to do it to so many other functions of the program too....rendering it useless.

and i guess it was not put in the best way. i know you havent used it as an example in any other of your examples. but i get REALLY sick and tired of hearing terrorism this terrorism that...it has nothing to do with terrorism, or any other event for that matter. its just stupid thats all...its politics makeing its way into arts.

BiTMAP
01-18-2004, 07:44 AM
when you used a paintbrush there was no way to stop you from painting what you wanted ;)


and here's an idea of how this could wreck someones work. Your client gives you a picture to work with that they need something done with or too, you try to open it in photoshop, only to find out you can't, and you get this error message. You scratch your head and after several wasted hours you realise that there is a $20 bill somewhere in the fotograph (just laying somewhere or perhaps in someones hand). The watermark still clear enough to stop adobe Photoshop CS from opening it, but not even near useful enough of an image of money to use it for ileagle purposes.

Well now your screwed up the creak becuase the photographer had no clue that there was a $20 bill in the shot and they cannot go and reshoot the photograph.

But besides that, (which is btw, digging quite deap, but just came to me.) The real problem is that it IS stopping you from doing something, if its legal or not. The law is there to stop you, the police, the jail terms. If those things are not enough to stop you then there is other serious problems with the society, and resolving to limit in ANY way an artists creative flow is WRONG.

I have a drama teacher at school who wants to be directing our student made plays. she gets all pissed off becuase we want to hear what the other students have to say and often listen to their suggestions instead of hers. Frankly, she is 1. person, and there are 30 other kids in the room, all of them equaly able to tell us what sux. It is limiting when you have one person telling you what you can and cannot do. It is Limiting to our creativity when she stands around telling us what to do, and not letting us just do. Its just as limiting to have a software to start telling you that you can't do things legal or not. Becuase sometimes artistic statements are NOT legal. Becuase sometimes the things we NEED to say ARE against the law, and against the government. Becuase sadly the Government ISN'T Always right. I think this forum SHOULD have alot of policital debateing, however IT should be like this. It shouldn't be about any one country or group. Simply becuase of the international Nature of the forum, it would create problems. However becuase we are ABLE to (at least so far) in this thread leave specific countries out, its still open.

Anyways, another thing to back up what i'm saying, In 1984, there is the thought police, its wrong to love... Now, that sounds rediculous, the government wouldn't EVER go that far, they'd NEVER do that type of thing...
... Did you realise that when that book came out, if it had not come out, it would have come true? The same thing is happening once again. I believe its time for our government systems to fall and new ones to rise up simply becuase things like this can happen. Things like this are encouraged. Things like the RIAA sending out "swat like" teams to bully around people, is also accepted and encouraged. Just not cool that people who are supposidly artists don't see it!

JohnD
01-18-2004, 04:01 PM
LOL. Well, thanks for the spelling correction there Layer. Sometimes I type so fast I don't know what the hell I'm putting down.
I can definitely see the other side of the arguement, and I agree with most of you that Adobe should have made a public statement that they were doing this. But I guess I just don't see it as such a big deal as most of you. If Adobe had made it public, would all of you still be as upset?

halo
01-18-2004, 06:19 PM
well a statement would suggest some forethought, which could be an opening for discussion...it would also aleviate the fears about another corp sticking their code in and telling adobe to keep quiet.

Still there would have been the reaction from those that still need to work with currency...but perhaps it could have opened dialogue and moeved to a solution that perhaps kept all the sides happier rather than just dumping it on their customers.

JohnD
01-18-2004, 06:24 PM
I was compelled to do a little research on this subject instead of just speculating.

http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/2003/05-13-3.htm
Take careful note about the percentage of digital counterfeiting that has increased from 1995 to today.

http://www.jaani.net/view/188/
Another interesting read. Note that this new technology doesn't seem to work all that well anyway.

Finally,
http://www.techtv.com/news/culture/story/0,24195,3374433,00.html
Some quotes from state's attorney and secret service.

dvornik
01-18-2004, 09:04 PM
Hey, jaani.net link to an image that I host. It's not my image - I got it off Adobe's forum.

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