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CG.p
02-25-2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Wanker
The only way Luxology can break into this is if they release a product that is so revolutionary that it will cause people to abandon their existing apps and switch.

I am not saying you are wrong, but the way I see it is that there are quite a few people that like modeling in Lightwave. If they can convince their boss/wife/parents/bank that they need to check out Modo, they have a chance on slipping into an existing market. There are things that everyone will admit that Lightwave can't do. Maya will do it but there is way too much extra baggage for everybody and their dog to just purchase it. If Luxology can produce a product that falls in the middle, or better yet, overlaps them both greatly, they might not need to break into the market because they could fill a void. But then again that is just my view, I have a different perspective on it than a big studio does.

Thanks for keeping the thread alive Wanker :thumbsup:

Beamtracer
02-25-2004, 11:01 AM
I disagree with CIM in that I think the Lightwave renderer was pretty decent when it came out. I think its lack of extensibility is why the major studios aren't using it, plus the fact that PR-Renderman and Mentalray are really excellent renderers.

Luxology seems to be addressing the extensibility issue. I think the only reason they would do this is to attract the major studios. Studios need to tweak that code and customize things.

But Brad dropped some hints that Luxology's software will be reasonably priced. That leads me to believe that they'll also be after mass unit-sales.

Most of the other apps (Maya, Max etc) really need the help of other rendering apps. It makes the whole package really high priced.

If Luxology can create a really excellent professional quality renderer (+Modo), they might be able to steal marketshare from the other high-priced apps.

Nemoid
02-25-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Wanker
Luxology has to be revolutionary.

There are a lot of 3D apps on the market. Expensive ones, cheap ones. Modelers, renderers. It's already a crowded market. The only way Luxology can break into this is if they release a product that is so revolutionary that it will cause people to abandon their existing apps and switch.

Either they go for the high-end, and charge a lot of money. Or (more likely) they go for mass sales.

They can still have a reasonably priced product that has high-end features and cost a lot of money in R&D to create, but they only way they'll succeed this way is to have lots of unit sales.

I wish them well. They have the talent to come out with a revolutionary product.

Well, from what Lux showed, Modo is not so revolutionary for now. surely there are a lot of things they dinn't show, at least i hope so, because for a modeler, new technologies are needed. For now its only a baby, but Z brush really shows a new modelling technology wich IMO will grow and grow in the future. it needs a good UI, and some other tool , but its there,and will show that modelling like a sculptor is possible.
for now we saw that modo can do things better than Lw modeler, with edges and ngons support; this is great but these aren't new technologies. its surely a good thing, but this isn't revolutionary.

the structure of the app seem revolutionary in some way though, because it allows alot of things to work together with other apps smoothly. this is surely great and a great foundation, but tools have to be better. i say : a structure like modo, coupled with the currently modelling workflow, plus new techniques similar to z brush could be revolutionary at all. otherwise there are modelers like Silo wich offers great things for a ridiculous price. :buttrock:


I am not saying you are wrong, but the way I see it is that there are quite a few people that like modeling in Lightwave. If they can convince their boss/wife/parents/bank that they need to check out Modo, they have a chance on slipping into an existing market. There are things that everyone will admit that Lightwave can't do. Maya will do it but there is way too much extra baggage for everybody and their dog to just purchase it. If Luxology can produce a product that falls in the middle, or better yet, overlaps them both greatly, they might not need to break into the market because they could fill a void. But then again that is just my view, I have a different perspective on it than a big studio does .

for now MODO seem to be an enhancement of Lw modelling tools and workflow . maybe this is enough to change app? this seems enough to add it to the pipeline, or sobstitute lw if you are only a modeler, but for an animator i think smth else is required. there are alot of modelling apps out there wich offers great tools. so what i hope is that Modo is way better than what Lux showed, and also that there are other modules like some other people suppose.

Also, i don't like so much this secrecy atmosphere. i think people like to know what a company like Lux is projecting, and like to see some progress too.

henning
02-25-2004, 04:54 PM
Luxology is Newtek's Lightwave 3D development group, much like the Yost Group is the 3ds max development arm of Discreet. (Well, except for the fact that Newtek seems to have taken over Lightwave 3D v8, and Luxology is going after the next generation.)

So, I assume Modo (and soon-to-come related components) will eventually replace Lightwave 3D. My question is: how obvious will that be? When it comes time to upgrade from Lightwave 8 to the next major version, will Modo be called Lightwave 9? If not, isn't Newtek risking people re-evaluating their choices and choosing something different instead? They say that one of the biggest mistakes IBM and Microsoft made with OS/2 was calling it OS/2 instead of MS-DOS 6 (or whatever the next-in-line version was at the time). People weren't ushered to the next OS seemlessly, so they didn't do it. Microsoft saw an opportunity for a Microsoft-only product (Windows) and the rest is history. Will Newtek have the same problem?

henning

jlinhart
02-25-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by henning
Luxology is Newtek's Lightwave 3D development group, much like the Yost Group is the 3ds max development arm of Discreet. (Well, except for the fact that Newtek seems to have taken over Lightwave 3D v8, and Luxology is going after the next generation.)
[cropped)


Not correct. Luxology is an independent company developing its own products. NewTek is the developer of LightWave 3D.

.jason
www.luxology.net

CG.p
02-25-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
Also, i don't like so much this secrecy atmosphere. i think people like to know what a company like Lux is projecting, and like to see some progress too.

This is what causes so much stink in the Lightwave forum. This secrecy isn't unique to Luxology. :)

kemijo
02-25-2004, 06:42 PM
When ppl. say "LW's renderer isnīt the best one", they seem never to have used LW.

I've used Lightwave for years. It's not the best renderer. :D

It is however, damn fast, damn good, and works well...with Lightwave. But there are many limitations that will prevent it from being picked up as a stand alone renderer by higher-end companies that want flexibility.

- No support for true curved surfaces, similar to Maya renderer (all geometry is tesselated).

- No support for a custom shading language.

- Surfaces, being all poly based, have no derivative/curvature information. This makes many shading effects unacheivable.

- No micropolygon displacement.

- Motion blur is limited...try rendering a very fast moving object close to camera at 2k.

Compare quality/features to any RenderMan renderer, Mental Ray, Mantra, Brazil, V-Ray, Final Render; and speed with Prman (without raytracing, with blur)...it isn't quite full featured enough for the high end stuff yet. Lightwave renderer is great for the market it's currently in, which is why it's there (quick and good), but releasing a stand-alone the way it is would likely not be an option for many film vfx studios.

Back on topic...Modo looks like it could be a really great app, as LW modeler has always been top notch, even with it's many limits. If it has many of the workflow features found in some of the new tools being released now (Mesh Surgery, Zbrush) it could be really nice. However, all I've seen from the videos is how to make it look like other apps, and one feature that was said to be "revolutionary and unique" and yet it was easily doable in Maya a long time ago. I keep waiting to see if Lux has something up their sleeve...it doesn't have to be "revolutionary" at all...just fast, full featured, and easy to use.Ater modeling in a few apps...doncha just hate "missing something" from one? Hoping Modo can (more or less) fix this. Either way, definitely gonna give it a go.

Nemoid
02-25-2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by CG.p
This is what causes so much stink in the Lightwave forum. This secrecy isn't unique to Luxology. :)

agree partially . Newtek thanx to Proton is posting alot of videos on the Lw 8 features, especially about new CA and rigging tools and modelling too. this seems to me not a secrecy atmosphere, even if the release date of the app remains a mistery!!!


I've used Lightwave for years. It's not the best renderer.

It is however, damn fast, damn good, and works well...with Lightwave. But there are many limitations that will prevent it from being picked up as a stand alone renderer by higher-end companies that want flexibility.

- No support for true curved surfaces, similar to Maya renderer (all geometry is tesselated).

- No support for a custom shading language.

- Surfaces, being all poly based, have no derivative/curvature information. This makes many shading effects unacheivable.

- No micropolygon displacement.

- Motion blur is limited...try rendering a very fast moving object close to camera at 2k.

Compare quality/features to any RenderMan renderer, Mental Ray, Mantra, Brazil, V-Ray, Final Render; and speed with Prman (without raytracing, with blur)...it isn't quite full featured enough for the high end stuff yet. Lightwave renderer is great for the market it's currently in, which is why it's there (quick and good), but releasing a stand-alone the way it is would likely not be an option for many film vfx studios.

Well. Lw has the best built .in renderer. compare that to Maya's native renderer or to other apps native engine and you can see a big difference in quality. I dunno why people compare always Lw renderer to Mentalray, or Prenderman. these 2 are high end renderers.Mray needs to be supported very well by the app(and XSI is the best here) while Prenderman needs agood translator (some studios Lw related have propietary translator for Prenderman and Dan Maas compiled one by himself). its clear that Lw renderer is inferior to Mray or prenderman for sure, but buy several licences of Mray and will see how much money you will spend. So,If you say. I want Lw allow third party rendering engines , especially Mray and i agree totally, but don't forget that with Lw renderer you can get film quality rendering and with unlimited render nodes.

Back on topic...Modo looks like it could be a really great app, as LW modeler has always been top notch, even with it's many limits. If it has many of the workflow features found in some of the new tools being released now (Mesh Surgery, Zbrush) it could be really nice. However, all I've seen from the videos is how to make it look like other apps, and one feature that was said to be "revolutionary and unique" and yet it was easily doable in Maya a long time ago. I keep waiting to see if Lux has something up their sleeve...it doesn't have to be "revolutionary" at all...just fast, full featured, and easy to use.Ater modeling in a few apps...doncha just hate "missing something" from one? Hoping Modo can (more or less) fix this. Either way, definitely gonna give it a go.

User friendly and powerfull are the goals new app must follow.

User friendly means that, since a 3d artist is an artist,he doesn't have necessarily to be a programmer to get the job done.
this requires first of all good and well thought tools, interactive and flexible. a fast workflow (the less clicks you have to do the better it is) and logic too.

powerfull means you can do alot and well in no time, so this involves sometimes new technologies or new ways to think. For example nodes structure were a new way to think when it first appeared. Z brush too is a new technology. I'm sure it will grow.

what i hope is an app wich puts together all these caracteristics, and especially in the rigging/animation side.

the fact that we have lot of rigging and animation tools made fby third party means there's alot to do in this field for sure.

a clever company would think to build an app considering the process for a complete work, from modelling to rigging, lighting, texturing animating and rendering. this process maybe considered as a flow, so that every step is connected to the other into a very logic way and also with alot of flexibility wich allows to correct errors in the way. the more smooth this process become, the better the app is. :)

gerardo
02-25-2004, 10:54 PM
Believe me, in the advertising area the render of LW is the best one; for me "best", mean: efficient (bigger and better result with smaller and better cost) Have you seen in Luxology site the article of the spot of Adidas that Digital Domain made? Do you believe that the same results had been achieved in the same time with PRenderman? I don't believe it. The most incredible thing is that isnīt real radiosity. "That LW doesn't have this and doesn't have the other thing", yes, but it also has infinity in ways to simulate this and the other thing that it doesn't have yet. Other render engines also have their own disadvantages, many times, much more expensive of solving.
Maybe in featured films won't be the best (but really which is it ?) is one of the best at least, if not, nobody would be speaking now of it. The render is the final result of an image, I think that to speak of the best render is not to speak of a software, but of the talent behind it and the capability of determining what application it is the best for each specific project. :)

CG.p
02-25-2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
agree partially . Newtek thanx to Proton is posting alot of videos on the Lw 8 features, especially about new CA and rigging tools and modelling too. this seems to me not a secrecy atmosphere, even if the release date of the app remains a mistery!!!


Yes, after over a year of everyone asking. :) AMost of the info is still one way though. Not a whole lot of qustions are answered just targeted marketing. That was my point, all companies do this to some degree.

CIM
02-26-2004, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
Well. Lw has the best built .in renderer. compare that to Maya's native renderer or to other apps native engine and you can see a big difference in quality. I dunno why people compare always Lw renderer to Mentalray, or Prenderman. these 2 are high end renderers.Mray needs to be supported very well by the app(and XSI is the best here) while Prenderman needs agood translator (some studios Lw related have propietary translator for Prenderman and Dan Maas compiled one by himself). its clear that Lw renderer is inferior to Mray or prenderman for sure, but buy several licences of Mray and will see how much money you will spend. So,If you say. I want Lw allow third party rendering engines , especially Mray and i agree totally, but don't forget that with Lw renderer you can get film quality rendering and with unlimited render nodes.

LW does NOT have the best built in renderer. Maya, XSI, and Max all have integrated mental ray, so that means they're "built in". Cinema 4D's renderer seems just as good as LW's renderer, too, if not better at raytracing and GI.

Comparing a renderers features and quality based on an artists work is simply stupid. I've seen great images coming out of the lowest-end renderers out there.

kemijo
02-26-2004, 02:44 AM
I agree that amazing images can come out of any renderer; that should be obvious to anyone. No is saying that "better" images come out of a particular renderer. Agreed that LW has many "fakes" that get the job done, and usually more efficiently than most other renderers. But I disagree that Prman could not have achieved quality and speed similar to the Adidas spot, especially at D1. Remember that Prman only recently included raytacing; but take a look at T2 and many other movies and tell me if you notice (well, don't look too hard :p ). Prman is absolutely unparralleled at motion blur...speed barely changes with blur off, or on full production film quality. Try that with another renderer, including Lightwave. With each sample, the time increases by almost 100%. I was doing a show with LW where we had an object flying by camera at a high speed at HD, and we could not get the antialiasing high enough to smooth out the stepping/artifacting. Plus curved geo (NURBS, Subdivs) are resolution independant.

I'm not saying LW is not a great renderer; quite the opposite - it has saved my hide many times, with great results. And film/high end is of course not be all and end all, as obviously there are many other (bigger) markets. The reason LW is dominant in the advert and TV market is cuz it delivers amazing quality, mimicking high end features with speed. But Lightwave's biggest strength is also the reason it isn't picked up in the cutting/bleeding edge - for most tasks, it gets you 90% there, 90% of the time. That extra 10% is always the hardest push, and it's where others shine, as they're extendable.

A great built in renderer that not too many know about is Mantra (Houdini Renderer). Unlimited render licences, and Prman performance (quality; not speed) with all of the features I listed above. It's custom shading language (VEX) even looks almost exactly like SL code, and the docs even suggest learning it by reading RenderMan tutorials/books. Not as fast as Lightwave or Prman...but hey, what is?

BTW, Houdini doesn't need a RenderMan converter/RIB exporter, as it has one built in. All you need is RenderMan itself, no *TOR/whatever needed.

Uhh...sorry for hijacking the thread...back to Modo! I keep looking at Mesh Surgery and drooling...I hope they have some neat workflows like that, not just LW modeler on steroids (well, even if it was only that, that's not so bad...but I'll still whine). Is vid number 5 the latest?

MarkCurtis
02-26-2004, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by CIM
Cinema 4D's renderer seems just as good as LW's renderer, too, if not better at raytracing and GI.


That's pretty funny and stupid at the same time. There went your credibility.

CG.p
02-26-2004, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by kemijo Is vid number 5 the latest?

What vid number 5?

Nemoid
02-26-2004, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by CIM
LW does NOT have the best built in renderer. Maya, XSI, and Max all have integrated mental ray, so that means they're "built in". Cinema 4D's renderer seems just as good as LW's renderer, too, if not better at raytracing and GI.

Comparing a renderers features and quality based on an artists work is simply stupid. I've seen great images coming out of the lowest-end renderers out there.

other apps "integrated" mental ray because it was the best and easy solution for them for rendering without re/compile their own rendering engine. while XSI was born around it, Maya and the others supported it afterwards.and into a worse way.
Lw rendering engine is native of Lw, and can compete with these other engines.
the main problem of Lw is that it have to support other rendering engines like Mental ray, wich users could buy separately if they want. this means flexibility. then there's the problem of speed of Lw rendering, but since Nt didn't focused developing on that for now, I'd not be so surprised if in the near future things change a little. :)
I never compared renderings from artists work. I read the great rendering article posted some time ago, as well as many others,and did tests and so on. So my opinion is that its better to have a enhanced Lw rendering plus support of third party renderers especially Mental Ray, than having Mray and no other renderer. this would increase money needed to complete good jobs.

and Modo? will it support other rendering engines like Mray or will they compile another propietary engine?

kemijo
02-26-2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by CG.p
What vid number 5?

Sorry...Modo demo video number 5. Haven't had a chance to watch one recently. I found the www.rendernode.com page with them all however, and video 5 is in deed the latest as fasr as I can tell. Thanks!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Modo has rendering or animation options at all; so far it's a stand alone modeler, isn't it? It supports textures and so on for UV editing and checking maps, but any shader info is going to be useless unless you are exporting to LW...for other apps it's modeling only AFAIK. For that matter, can you even setup lights, or are all shaders essentially a constant/surface shader/decal/luminous (insert app specific shader that doesn't react to light here)?

Thalaxis
02-26-2004, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by MarkCurtis
That's pretty funny and stupid at the same time. There went your credibility.

Been hiding under a rock lately?

MarkCurtis
02-27-2004, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Thalaxis
Been hiding under a rock lately?

no, but I am a software developer who does 3D graphics as a hobby. I'm still learning, so give me time!

CG.p
02-27-2004, 02:34 AM
Thalaxis was taking a jab at CIM not your knowledge of 3D.


play nice, can't afford to have this thread closed. :)

cryo
02-27-2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by jlinhart
Not correct. Luxology is an independent company developing its own products. NewTek is the developer of LightWave 3D.

.jason
www.luxology.net

Hey jason, any update on those videos the lux home page mentioned back in january? pretty please?

Thalaxis
02-27-2004, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by CG.p
Thalaxis was taking a jab at CIM not your knowledge of 3D.


No, it wasn't. It was directed at MarkCurtis. Go back and read
what he wrote... I was being nice.

I'm not claiming that Cinema's renderer toasts LightWave's or
anything like that, but it's no longer easy to say one has the edge
over the other without getting subjective, so I won't. I like them
both a lot.

What it means for Modo is simply that if they plan to get into the
renderer market as well, then they have quite a few competitors
there to contend with also, though that niche doesn't seem quite
as crowded yet as the modeller niche is right now.

Nemoid
02-27-2004, 09:58 AM
Sure!:)
they could do a great rendering engine with cool features indeed, similar or better than Mental Ray, as well as build a great translator for PRenderman (good market strategy this one )
when i see things like FPrime made from Worley, i wonder how about a new renderer compiled with such an ability...

However, we want to see some Modo movies soon! :buttrock:

henning
02-27-2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by jlinhart
Not correct. Luxology is an independent company developing its own products. NewTek is the developer of LightWave 3D.


I believe that Luxology is an independent company, but the idea I got from an interview I read was that it was developing the next version of 3D software for Newtek. This isn't true? So Newtek will release Lightwave 3D 9, 10, etc and Modo (and other components) will compete against them? Is that right?

henning
02-27-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
they could do a great rendering engine with cool features indeed, similar or better than Mental Ray, as well as build a great translator for PRenderman (good market strategy this one )


I think there are many great RenderMan renderers out there and Luxology should look at partnering with someone like Sitex Graphics or 3Delight for their rendering solution. IMHO there's no need to re-invent the wheel yet again when there's such good stuff out there. But then again I'm biased. :) (I'm currently making a 3ds max to RenderMan plugin. To be released any week now!!)

henning
www.archonus.com

Chaz
02-27-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by henning
I believe that Luxology is an independent company, but the idea I got from an interview I read was that it was developing the next version of 3D software for Newtek. This isn't true? So Newtek will release Lightwave 3D 9, 10, etc and Modo (and other components) will compete against them? Is that right?

Brad Peebler made that statement in an early interview after Luxology was formed, but later retracted it. Reading between the lines, I'd guess that the developers that formed Luxology had differing opinions on Lightwave's development roadmap and went off to do it better somewhere else. Given the apparent openess of the Modo/Nexus architecture versus the difficulty involved with working with the Lightwave SDK, I'd say that's what really went on between Newtek and Luxology.

After all, when Softimage went through the long transformation to XSI, users waited with bated breath, and SI began losing marketshare to Maya....maybe Newtek thought that they couldn't weather a major re-write with all the competition emerging.

Nexus has been shown with a speedy new renderer, but I'd bet my license of Lightwave that there are hooks to Renderman and perhaps even Mental Ray. ;)

Thalaxis
02-27-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Chaz

Nexus has been shown with a speedy new renderer, but I'd bet my license of Lightwave that there are hooks to Renderman and perhaps even Mental Ray. ;)

It would pretty funny if they launched it with FPrime or something
like that ;)

Hooks for RenderMan wouldn't be all that big a deal, as they'd
just have to spit out RIB files and be done with it, since that's
exactly what RenderMan is for. The hard part is the shaders.

MarkCurtis
02-27-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by Thalaxis
No, it wasn't. It was directed at MarkCurtis. Go back and read
what he wrote... I was being nice.

I'm not claiming that Cinema's renderer toasts LightWave's or
anything like that, but it's no longer easy to say one has the edge
over the other without getting subjective, so I won't. I like them
both a lot.

What it means for Modo is simply that if they plan to get into the
renderer market as well, then they have quite a few competitors
there to contend with also, though that niche doesn't seem quite
as crowded yet as the modeller niche is right now.

meh. Cinema's renderer looks crummy.

All this speculation about lux's render this and that is plainly premature ejaculation over nada. Ever funnier is that they can't even produce a decent set of videos to show off what they've got and leave it to those crappy old shots from way back.

CG.p
02-28-2004, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by MarkCurtis
meh. Cinema's renderer looks crummy.

All this speculation about lux's render this and that is plainly premature ejaculation over nada. Ever funnier is that they can't even produce a decent set of videos to show off what they've got and leave it to those crappy old shots from way back.

Luxology hasn't released any videos. The ones you might be talking about are the crap Cgchannel dribbled out.

MarkCurtis
02-28-2004, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by CG.p
Luxology hasn't released any videos. The ones you might be talking about are the crap Cgchannel dribbled out.

duh.

kemijo
02-28-2004, 01:08 AM
Is everyone positive that Modo can even talk to a renderer? Does it even have lights? If you can't animate, what's the point of a renderer? I thought the idea was Model/UV/Export.

LW RenderMan exporter from Newtek? I'll take that bet :) RIB is easy (and has been done already, although apparently not too well), shaders are another issue...and unless they create a way in the interface to create/attach shaders to objects like MTOR, you'll be editing RIB...also not a big deal, but I don't think they stand to gain much. Hey who knows, certainly could happen...but I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe a third party tool?

Thalaxis
02-28-2004, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by MarkCurtis
meh. Cinema's renderer looks crummy.


Ironic, coming from one who claimed that CIM lost his credibility
for stating the opposite, when in fact reality supports CIM's
assertion far better than it supports yours.

You ought to get out and watch more movies.

CG.p
02-28-2004, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Thalaxis
Ironic, coming from one who claimed that CIM lost his credibility
for stating the opposite, when in fact reality supports CIM's
assertion far better than it supports yours.

You ought to get out and watch more movies.

And he managed to go from zero to ass in just a few posts.

Thalaxis
02-28-2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by CG.p
And he managed to go from zero to ass in just a few posts.

Indeed... is there a prize for that? :wip:

MarkCurtis
02-28-2004, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by CG.p
And he managed to go from zero to ass in just a few posts.

Mad that I caught up with you so quickly?


And sure, I agree with you that Cim has no credibilty.

SheepFactory
02-28-2004, 03:42 AM
Guys I'll close this thread if it keeps going in this direction.

Nemoid
02-28-2004, 08:22 AM
I always look if Lux site has been updated, for more infos and this morning i saw....

a link to an article talking of Meni's "the Freak" :eek:

i have the maximum respect for people and their work, but Jeez, this seems to me smoke in the eyes.

they didn't unveil quite nothing about Modo so far , only its name , the UI and some features shown in the crappy CGchannel movies. they even didn't put a link on their site for the movies above, and last but not least, Ino returned to Nt developing, while he was in Lux before.

All the rest are only rumours, or things that people said they showed only to a restricted bunch of people. The name Nexus, itself was never shown on their site, nor discussed in any way by Lux people.

Hope that people wich says those things said the truth, though.

also, I don't like the Lw related misleading campaign with preset, Lw users as a community in the site, and announces about Lw. If Lux is another company wich develops another product, the Lw stuff should disappear from that pages.

Beamtracer
02-28-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
Guys I'll close this thread if it keeps going in this direction. Sheep Factory, please delete the posts of those who flame, rather than the entire thread. Otherwise it would spoil it for the people who don't flame.


Originally posted by Nemoid
i have the maximum respect for people and their work, but Jeez, this seems to me smoke in the eyes.

they didn't unveil quite nothing about Modo so far , only its name , the UI and some features shown in the crappy CGchannel movies.
Nemoid, I would also like to see Luxology release a bit more info. It makes it easier to plan ahead. It keeps people interested in what's going on.

On the other hand, Luxology has no obligation to show anything to their customers, mainly because they don't have any customers! (yet) It may also put them at a commercial disadvantage if they let competitors see what features they will have.

It's of enormous interest what Luxology does, mainly because of who they are. They developed the 3D program that I use now (LW3D) so I want to know what they will release next.

Thalaxis
02-28-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Wanker

It's of enormous interest what Luxology does, mainly because of who they are. They developed the 3D program that I use now (LW3D) so I want to know what they will release next.

While I wasn't pleased about their shenanigans in regards to
NewTek, I'm also very interested in what they are developing.
It's entirely possible that they'll do what Brad was talking about
a couple of years ago when he mentioned some of the plans for
the next version of LW; a major focus was openness and
integration (with 3rd party software).

CG.p
02-28-2004, 03:42 PM
i have the maximum respect for people and their work, but Jeez, this seems to me smoke in the eyes.

Do I have to point out the Lightwave forum again? :) They have people on both sides. The info shared is more than enough for some and not nearly enough for others

Ino returned to Nt developing, while he was in Lux before.

I don't rememeber hearing that he ever worked for Luxology.


also, I don't like the Lw related misleading campaign with preset, Lw users as a community in the site, and announces about Lw. If Lux is another company wich develops another product, the Lw stuff should disappear from that pages.

and CGTalk should delete anything not related to their products and just promote expose' 1 and 2. :) It isn't like they develop any of the software on their forums.

CG.p
02-28-2004, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Thalaxis
While I wasn't pleased about their shenanigans in regards to
NewTek, I'm also very interested in what they are developing.

I can't remember Luxology saying that NewTek sucked and then covered their office building in toilet paper. :) They just said they were developing the next generation of LightWave FOR NewTek. Since they were the original developers for the program it seemed like a good thing to the end users.

Beamtracer
02-28-2004, 10:59 PM
Luxology has always spoken about Lightwave with glowing praise. They never say a bad word about it.

I think it's fair enough that the guys who developed Lightwave (up until and including LW7.5) mention Lightwave on their website.

We don't know the details of why they left Newtek. I don't think we should paint them as villains when we haven't heard their side of the story. Alan Hastings was always the owner of Lightwave's Modeler (until LW8) so I think he had the right to take development in whatever direction he saw fit.

So the Lux guys felt that development should be taken in a different direction to what Newtek thought was best. I think that's OK. It will result in more choice.

Lightwave 8 is doing OK for Newtek. They've had lots of presales, so Newtek has been making money on it. Whatever Luxology develops will be released long after LW8, so people should not think that it is a major threat to LW8.

Mike RB
02-28-2004, 11:47 PM
Actually Modeler is the brainchild of Stuart Furgeson. Allen was the Layout/render part of LW.

Mike

Beamtracer
02-29-2004, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Mike RB
Actually Modeler is the brainchild of Stuart Furgeson. Allen was the Layout/render part of LW. That's what I meant to say! ;)
Modeler was Stuart's baby. I think it's fair enough that he makes a decision to take it in the direction that he sees fit. A lot of people who purchase the new LW8 renderer will probably want to use MODO as well, for their modeling needs.

Thalaxis
02-29-2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Wanker
That's what I meant to say! ;)
Modeler was Stuart's baby. I think it's fair enough that he makes a decision to take it in the direction that he sees fit. A lot of people who purchase the new LW8 renderer will probably want to use MODO as well, for their modeling needs.

Especially if Lux offers an enticing deal for LW8 users. :)

BTW, in response to your (and CG.p's) earlier post, all I meant
about Lux's shenanigans was their PR blunders. They got a bit
carried away with their enthusiasm.

Beamtracer
03-01-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Thalaxis
all I meant
about Lux's shenanigans was their PR blunders.About 2 years ago, there was that famous CGchannel interview with Brad Peebler, where he said Lightwave had "two mothers".

But about a year and a half ago, CGchannel promoted a different forthcoming interview where Aristomenis Tsirbas ("Menithings") would be talking with the guys from Luxology. That interview never made it online.

All is pretty quiet over at Luxology. I hope they say some more soon.

Nemoid
03-01-2004, 12:31 PM
Guys,

I think many people is really interested in what Lux is projecting and working. I am the first to be interested in new technologies, and very curious about Modo and other possible Lux products.

in fact, i'm not critiquing other people's work, and i also know that a company isn't obliged to show anything, but i am not so happy when i see the Lux campaign.

Luxology is not actually a Lightwave community, IMO.
Lightwave 3D is property of Newtek, and Luxology is another company. they are supposed to be working on a product wich works with Lw as well as many other apps, not working FOR Lightwave or Newtek in any way.

The fact of Lux owners being the original programmers of Lightwave 3D means that they are very good programmers. the proper word would be 3D pioneers, butnot that they are working for Lightwave.

There's no problem in making Lw positive advertisement if you are a forum, a user or other things. But when you are a competitor company, projecting a 3D app,well, things change a little IMO.
(incidentally, CGTalk is a general CG forum, so its fine to promote all the products. the more they are the best the resource is. they equally promote all the new apps and technologies and much more)

Lw have a good modeler yet currently. Modo is a modeler. a good one indeed. a competitor modeler though.so, while i have no prob to buy or be interested into another modeler, even a competitor one, is the Lw stuff on the website that makes me feel a bit upset.
For example : why promote only Lw? lets promote, Maya, XSI , Max and all the other apps. they're all great and deserve it.

on the other hand,
I'd be very pleased if Lux promote THEIR product better.

private
03-01-2004, 01:51 PM
Seems like Worley has come up with quite the product in Fprime. However, in a thread on the Newtek board, I mentioned how he's probably going to be making more money, as his products will probably also be available for Lux's products. My comment got deleted. Sucks.

Worley is listed as a company they will do business with, and that is a positive thing.

Thalaxis
03-01-2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Wanker

All is pretty quiet over at Luxology. I hope they say some more soon.

Same here. I'm very curious about it, and it's hard to be patient
when you're curious ;)

CG.p
03-01-2004, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid Lw have a good modeler yet currently. Modo is a modeler. a good one indeed. a competitor modeler though.so, while i have no prob to buy or be interested into another modeler, even a competitor one, is the Lw stuff on the website that makes me feel a bit upset.

So your demo reel consists of nothing done for another company?

Nemoid
03-01-2004, 07:28 PM
When will Ferrari make ads saying Porshe is great?

I think never!

this is simply my point. Why not advertising the product you sell and no others? it seems more... honest to me. this is what i'm talking about.
if you are happy with this, no prob. i'm only saying I am not so happy with this.

maybe this will change in some degree when Modo will ship, though.

Beamtracer
03-01-2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by private
Seems like Worley has come up with quite the product in Fprime. However, in a thread on the Newtek board, I mentioned how he's probably going to be making more money, as his products will probably also be available for Lux's products. My comment got deleted. Sucks. On Newtek's message boards they are very sensitive about discussion of competitor's products, especially any mention of Luxology. Mention of this gets deleted very quickly.

I guess that's fair enough from Newtek's perspective. They have their own corporate interests to look after, and they own their message boards.

That's why you come to this forum at CGTalk, so you can talk about 3D products freely without any software vendor deleting your post because it mentions a competitor.

I think it's a good thing that Luxology speaks very highly of Lightwave. After all, they designed it. They know more about what's inside Lightwave than Newtek does.

It sounds like some people would prefer if Luxology started speaking badly of Lightwave. I don't think that would be better.

CG.p
03-01-2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid
[B]When will Ferrari make ads saying Porshe is great?

I think never!

How many Porshes has Ferrari made in the past? Your point isn't being made by that argument. I'll go back to my question about demo reels.

Nemoid
03-02-2004, 08:03 AM
Demo reels are a way to show one artist's
personal skills. they're made for getting other jobs and can show
pieces made for different companies, just because you made the product FOR them. in some case you sell the rights to "publish" or use YOUR product, not the property itself, wich remains your own.

there are people wich can't show final pieces till the company they worked for allows them , for example not until that product isn't on the market. this depends from contracts.
Reels are not for sell in anyway.

As a company, Luxology never produced an app called Lightwave 3D.

henning
03-03-2004, 02:30 PM
If Luxology is going to sell us software that competes with Lightwave, why promote Lightwave? It doesn't make sense and is confusing. Who cares that the creators of Lightwave are also the founders of Luxology? It's irrelevant because this is a NEW company about to sell a NEW COMPETITIVE product. The only relevance is to show that Luxology's people are technically capable. But Luxology doesn't promote its Lightwave ties in that manner.

When I first heard of Luxology (before hearing about Modo) I went to their website and saw a bunch of Lightwave stuff. I couldn't figure out what they actually did, and I figured they must be making training videos or materials of some sort. When I heard of Modo, it made it all the more confusing. Is Modo a Lightwave plugin? Makes sense to me given their website....

yog
03-03-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by henning
If Luxology is going to sell us software that competes with Lightwave, why promote Lightwave?

The feeling I get is that Luxology was originally formed to protect intelectual property (when each release of LW was finished people got laid off and skills were lost) (a safe haven for programers if you like, and also in part to give certain people more influence in what direction future versions Lightwave was going to go, hence the "two moms" quote.
I don't think the original intent was to totally break away from LW, hence all the pro-LW comments and articles.

For whatever reason the powerplay didn't happen/work, so Luxology decided to go with thier own product instead.

Total speculation because the only people who really know aren't talking, but it does seem to fit the known facts.

Nemoid
03-03-2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by henning
Is Modo a Lightwave plugin? Makes sense to me given their website....

LOL! glad to see I'm not alone with this.

From the little we know, Modo is a good 3D modeler, with good features like ngons support, edge and related tools support, customizable UI, with the capability of save layouts and with the possibility to imitate other apps UI (presets?), construction history, tools similar to make live, uv tools, and more
...it will work with different apps like Maya, Max, XSI, .....Lw.

henning
03-03-2004, 08:21 PM
Nemoid: But do you get that info from their site? No. My point exactly.

yog: I'm not so sure a company can be sustainable if its purpose is to protect intelectual property. You need something to sell. No dough, no Modo.

Larrikin
03-03-2004, 09:24 PM
21 pages and counting!
That's a lot of talk about vaporware.

Beamtracer
03-05-2004, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Larrikin
That's a lot of talk about vaporware. Modo is every bit as much vaporware as Lightwave 8 is right now! There's a lot of talk about that, too! :)

I'd like to know what's happening between Worley and Luxology. On its website, Luxology refers to Worley Labs as one of its partners. I think the least we could assume from this is that Worley Labs will be making some or all of its products compatible with Nexus/Modo.

I'm interested in Worley Lab's new F-Prime software. I hope it is available for both Lightwave and Nexus/Modo. I hope they don't charge an extra crossgrade fee to make it work with both systems.

MarkCurtis
03-05-2004, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Wanker
Modo is every bit as much vaporware as Lightwave 8 is right now!


The LW8 videos are quite a bit better. Don't expect to see anything real this year from lux other than the old presets that made them famous.

Rigley
03-05-2004, 04:38 AM
The LW8 videos are quite a bit better. Don't expect to see anything real this year from lux other than the old presets that made them famous.

I think when Brad Peebler will release a modo demo video, it will be much better than the poor David Ikeda -tool demonstration videos from Newtek.
And i think that modo WILL be released this year. Lux. said that, and i trust them.

MarkCurtis
03-05-2004, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by Rigley
I think when Brad Peebler will release a modo demo video, it will be much better than the poor David Ikeda -tool demonstration videos from Newtek.
And i think that modo WILL be released this year. Lux. said that, and i trust them.

not likely. So far it's been nothing but talk and endless speculation in threads such as this.

Vaporware.

Nemoid
03-05-2004, 09:34 AM
Lux will release Modo.
When, they will announce, i hope.
It's not exactly a vaporware.
I'd call it lack of infos about their product,
for now.

CG.p
03-05-2004, 05:09 PM
Wow moderators don't delete flame bait but they get upset if you call someone an ass. How about keeping trolls out of the one thread Modo is allowed?

Xtrude
03-05-2004, 05:43 PM
not likely. So far it's been nothing but talk and endless speculation in threads such as this.

Pretty funny stuff :D

One has to seriously wonder just how much of the World is built upon speculation. I mean this thread is largely made up of just that. Speculation.

In the mean time it would also seem the LW is gaining a ton of publicity through this here MoDo thread. Funny how things work LMAO :D

Beamtracer
03-05-2004, 11:05 PM
From Luxology's website today:
http://www.luxology.net/index_d.aspx
demo modo _ 03.05.2004

Luxology is looking for talented modelers in the Bay Area/West Coast to participate as demonstration artists. If you would like to learn modo, earn some money and have an all around swell time send an email to careers@luxology.net. Please be prepared to send samples of your modeling work. Our first demo project will be at the Game Developers Conference in San Jose (game development experience is a bonus).

Chaz
03-05-2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by MarkCurtis
not likely. So far it's been nothing but talk and endless speculation in threads such as this.

Vaporware.
You obviously haven't seen it demoed yet then.

Beamtracer
03-06-2004, 02:49 AM
Quote from Luxology
Our first demo project will be at the Game Developers Conference in San Jose The Game Developers Conference that Modo will be demoed at begins on March 22, 2004. That's not far away.

I get the impression that Modo is at a mature stage in its development and may be ready for release soon.

But where's the renderer? What I really want is a renderer.

The advertisement for people to demo Modo gives me the impression that Luxology will first release a modeling-only application.

I get by quite well with Lightwave's current modeling tools. I don't know if I could justify buying another modeling app.

If I buy Modo when it is released, I assume I would then have to pay again to get the renderer when it is released later.

So it seem like people will then use Modo to model, and Lightwave to render. I'd prefer it to be the other way around!

Rigley
03-06-2004, 06:50 AM
The advertisement for people to demo Modo gives me the impression that Luxology will first release a modeling-only application.

Yes modo will be a modeler only application.

But where's the renderer? What I really want is a renderer.

A renderer / animating module will be released later.

(this is not a speculation)

Nemoid
03-06-2004, 08:08 AM
Hey Rigley, where did you get these infos ....? :D

CIM
03-06-2004, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
Hey Rigley, where did you get these infos ....? :D

Luxology showed the animation/rendering/whatever part last Siggraph to a small select group.

silvergun
03-06-2004, 11:49 AM
Was'nt it refered to as the whisper suite? I thought they also demoed a 3d animation software at the last apple wwdc.

Thalaxis
03-06-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by silvergun
Was'nt it refered to as the whisper suite? I thought they also demoed a 3d animation software at the last apple wwdc.

From what I understood, the Whisper Suite is a suite of rooms
that Lux used for a private demo.

Whether or not they actually have animation and/or rendering
tools in the works is an open question, and although I think that
theorizing that they DO has considerable merit, there is nothing
official to support that theory just yet.

Of course, the amount of evidence countering that theory is about
the same, so we can't debunk it with any credibility, either :)

Beamtracer
03-06-2004, 08:46 PM
What concerns me is if Luxology release the modeling-only package first, then the rendering part later, we have to pay twice.

In the future, when the whole package is completed, I'm sure people will be able to buy the whole bundle at a cheaper price than each component separately.

But now, we will only be able to buy each component separately, when each component is released.

Compounding that, the first buyers will not have the benefit of hindsight to see how Luxology's software works in the real world. The first buyers also won't have the benefit of hindsight to see how Luxology as a company works in the real world.

The first buyers will be purchasing "blind", with only some videos and demos at trade shows to judge it buy. To compensate for this, Luxology's software will need to be discounted massively in the beginning.

CG.p
03-07-2004, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Wanker
What concerns me is if Luxology release the modeling-only package first, then the rendering part later, we have to pay twice.

If Alias took out all Maya's animation stuff and sold it as a seperate module do you think it would be free? :)

What if Modo was priced low enough that buying another module wasn't too bad. Or better yet how about going with what Luxology has said and use Modo for modeling and something else for animation . Remember they have been pushing Modo as part of a pipeline not a complete pipeline replacement.

As for blind purchases, would it make you feel better if they threw in a compositing app? :)

Nemoid
03-07-2004, 02:46 PM
I'm positive enough to think they will say at least IF there will be other modules and what area they refer to.
They will have a demo of Modo as many other companies do,
and prices will be compared to the quality of the app.

Beamtracer
03-10-2004, 01:33 AM
The Worley Laboratories (http://www.worley.com/) FPrime release adds more issues to think about.

If we buy FPrime for Lightwave 8, will we have to pay again to buy it again for Nexus / Modo when that is released?


Will FPrime on Nexus be more functional than FPrime on Lightwave? I guess we won't know until we see it.

CG.p
03-10-2004, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by Wanker
If we buy FPrime for Lightwave 8, will we have to pay again to buy it again for Nexus / Modo when that is released?


No, one copy of FPrime will work with all your 3d software and you can run as many copies on as many computers as you want. :)

JK

Seriously, if you need it for LW now you need to buy it now. I can't imagine that if we see a Modo version of FPrime that it will be the same plugin function-wise. Did you report that Modo is fully open to 3rd party while Worley just announced that they are looking into opening the LW SDK a little more?

It will all be good. Just can't wait for more info after the gdc.

Beamtracer
03-10-2004, 09:27 PM
I've got no idea how long it will take Luxology to build a renderer. Newtek must be hoping it will be a very long time.

Luxology has been so much more secretive about the renderer than they have about the Modo modeler. Possibly they don't want to give competitors any closely held trade secrets.

If Luxology released a renderer that could run the FPrime plugin plus other shader plugins at the same time they would be on to a winner.

CG.p
03-10-2004, 09:49 PM
While Worley is one of the bets graphics programmers out there He is still working against Lightwave's SDK. Allen Hastings, another great graphics guy, doesn't have that limitation.

This is still speculation since they haven't officially announced a rendering app though. Modo might be giving enough info for a 3rd party render engine to be added on. Since Luxology is starting from the ground up I am sure that the existing partners haev input on what they would want for the SDK. I remember reading a press release that they had Beth L, from formerly of Entropy, as a consultant.

Beamtracer
03-12-2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by CG.p
While Worley is one of the bets graphics programmers out there He is still working against Lightwave's SDK. Allen Hastings, another great graphics guy, doesn't have that limitation. Now that Lightwave 8 is on the eve of being released, and the feature set is basically known, I feel a bit let down. Not personally, but LW8 doesn't have the improvements in the areas that I'm looking for.

I'm sure lots of people will love LW8 and its new character tools. For many, this will be what they need.

But for what I use it for, I was hoping for more rendering and workflow improvements which didn't come. And then there's the problems with the SDK which didn't get fixed.

To me, the renderer is the fundamental component. Images must be pristine. No flicker. No jagged edges on motion blur. I feel that these issues must be resolved before you can think about adding anything else.

So now I look with great interest to see whether Luxology will produce a renderer of high quality. And from Brad's interview at the start of this thread, it could be assumed that Luxology's SDK will solve all the problems plaguing Lightwave's one.

The only other alternative in software packages would be to buy one of the other high-priced 3D packages (which have even worse renderers) and team it with a stand alone renderer like Mental Ray or PRman. A very expensive solution that I still wouldn't feel comfortable with.

Originally posted by CG.p
This is still speculation since they [Luxology] haven't officially announced a rendering app though.Yeah, it is speculation, although Luxology displayed a rendering app to a select group of people at Siggraph last year. I wish I could have seen it. I would love to have given it a closer inspection.

Nemoid
03-12-2004, 11:13 AM
Quite agree about Lw, 8 can't be the solution of all Lw problems, just because the new team just started to work since a little time, to an app of wich they don't know completely the code.
they are working hard, and are a good team for sure, but lack of experience and complete knowledge of Lw problems (and there are alot) is a great obstacle for them. that's also why i always say that Nt should start a Lw rewrite on a separate pipeline.

I think an alternative solution to Modo/Nexus could be go with Maya, especially if ypu love scripting. After all complete is 2000$ and comes with Mray integrated.

Modo will surely be on the market soon, i think this year for sure. but other supposed modules could take more time to go on the market, and the whole app would be 1.0 version so a version not tested from a lot of users.

Beamtracer
03-15-2004, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
Quite agree about Lw, 8 can't be the solution of all Lw problems, just because the new team just started to work since a little time, to an app of wich they don't know completely the code. Hasn't it been over 2 years since all the Lightwave programmers walked out on Newtek? I don't know. I feel very disheartened at the lack of progress by Newtek on Lightwave. Looking down the LW8 feature list, I worry they've lost their direction. It means an alternative renderer from Luxology is needed now more than ever.

Originally posted by Nemoid
I think an alternative solution to Modo/Nexus could be go with Maya, especially if ypu love scripting. After all complete is 2000$ and comes with Mray integrated. You're right, Nemoid. I think the Maya/M-Ray combination would be the most obvious alternative for those who need a decent renderer and workflow. I'm keeping it in mind. It costs a lot less than I paid for Lightwave some years ago.

Originally posted by Nemoid
Modo will surely be on the market soon, i think this year for sure. but other supposed modules could take more time to go on the market, and the whole app would be 1.0 version so a version not tested from a lot of users. If Luxology is looking to employ people to do Modo demos it seems like Modo may be very close to release. I hope Stuart Ferguson is burning the midnight oil trying to get this thing done! ;) Some of the other Luxology people have claimed to be working "14 hours a day" coding these new apps.

Gwot
03-15-2004, 12:13 AM
I dunno, as a relatively new LW user I'm finding it difficult to put any stock in a product built by the people who literally abandoned the product I'm currently using. That's how I see it, and that doesn't instill any confidence at all for me in what they are working on now.

There's already a huge user base for LW, why would you just throw all that away? Then again, most of the problems I have with LW were created by the same team who dumped LW and are now making modo. Most of those problems appear to be getting addressed in 8 by the new team.

And yes, I'm speculating, based on the evidence I have before me. Not much else to do when there's no information.

Nemoid
03-15-2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Wanker
Hasn't it been over 2 years since all the Lightwave programmers walked out on Newtek? I don't know. I feel very disheartened at the lack of progress by Newtek on Lightwave. Looking down the LW8 feature list, I worry they've lost their direction. It means an alternative renderer from Luxology is needed now more than ever.

Well , i dunno exactly if they lost their direction. what i am saying is that they had a little time to work effectively on the app, and that the in some way lack some experiece. this doesn't mean they're not capable at all, since from what we can see from the feature list certain things required since years (when the original development time was there) have been addressed so, in one side i actually see the good intention to do a good work, surely the best they can. on the other side i clearly see it will be a process, wich will go ahead during the 8.x cycle, being 8.0 just the start. another thing maybe we'll know in some days will be the thoughts of nt team on development, just because Matt have to publish an interview with them. here my curiosity is about the general Lwstructure, if it will be updated and how and when.

You're right, Nemoid. I think the Maya/M-Ray combination would be the most obvious alternative for those who need a decent renderer and workflow. I'm keeping it in mind. It costs a lot less than I paid for Lightwave some years ago. yap. the only thing wich can give probs is unlimited render nodes lack for Mray. but as a money combination can be very good, and flexible at the same time for sure. after all, in Maya you have all the modelling tools you need, nurbs too, while the main task yo have is focusing on workflow speed. i think this can be addressed with mels you can find, as well as mel you can write. Nexus/Modo could have a huge good workflow too, but here we have to know more before buying it blindly. the main question is : why a Maya user would buy modo? to model faster? better?for now i could do this with Lw modeler, with not great probs, then import my mesh and refine it in maya. that's why here a thing like Modo should IMO be way better than other modelers, like lw modeler, but also Silo, etc. or a complete app just from the start. this can't be seen from the Lux declairations and on the site though.

If Luxology is looking to employ people to do Modo demos it seems like Modo may be very close to release. I hope Stuart Ferguson is burning the midnight oil trying to get this thing done! ;) Some of the other Luxology people have claimed to be working "14 hours a day" coding these new apps.
hehe :) yep i hope so. i'm very excited from this since i want to know more. maybe there will be some surprise too, about the tools and some revelation about Lux intentions.

kidcodea
03-15-2004, 11:24 AM
GO BRAD GO!!!!!!!! SHOW'EM HOW ITS DONE!

Beamtracer
03-17-2004, 11:39 PM
Is the legendary Lightwave 3D artist, Aristomenis Tsirbas, migrating to Luxology? On his Menithings (http://www.menithings.com/) website he carries a banner promoting Luxology. On Luxology's (http://www.luxology.net/) website they have a feature about Menithings. Cross promotion?

Menithings has been approached by a major Hollywood studio to transform his 'Freak' character into a feature length movie for mainstream cinema release. Last I heard he was deciding what equipment he would be using to create this major feature film.

* * * *

Next week (March 22) is the Game Developers Conference in San Jose. Luxology will be demonstrating Modo there. Anyone attending may like to post back here to let us all know how it was.

Nemoid
03-18-2004, 08:19 AM
Probably yes. I am a big fan of Meni's works, like i am a big fan of Taron's and Tajino works too.

Meni modelling and rendering skills are more than astonishing. unfortunately the same thing can't be said for character animation in his solo works like Freak. (Ray Tracey had a huge team instead)

i say this because i really hope a Lux animation module will come, and having great betetesters is always a goood thing.
for example an artist like Tim Albee !!!! he's currently making a short movie all alone with 2 pc and Lw!!!!! :bowdown:
astonishing quality too.

i'm really excited for the upcoming Modo demo, though hope to see more infos after that.

lwbob
03-24-2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Gwot
I dunno, as a relatively new LW user I'm finding it difficult to put any stock in a product built by the people who literally abandoned the product I'm currently using. That's how I see it, and that doesn't instill any confidence at all for me in what they are working on now.

You are right, and no one should have you do any work for them because you may have quit your job in the past. :)

lwbob
03-24-2004, 10:57 PM
The GDC starts today, anyone going? Modo is supposed to be demoed in a few booths there.

twidup
03-24-2004, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Gwot
I dunno, as a relatively new LW user I'm finding it difficult to put any stock in a product built by the people who literally abandoned the product I'm currently using. That's how I see it, and that doesn't instill any confidence at all for me in what they are working on now.

And yes, I'm speculating, based on the evidence I have before me. Not much else to do when there's no information.

hmmm, to me, both these statements are off. First off, no one, except NewTek and Luxology knows the whole truth as to why they left. I dont see them as dropping LW, I see them more as moving on to someplace where they have more of the final say in the product rather than a marketing team telling them what they can and cant do, as well as them retaining the profits for R&D as opposed to those profits funding other projects.

Also, most of the stuff I am seeing for LW 8 is basically newtek buying a bunch of 3rd party plugins, some that have been released, others that havent, and bundling them with LW.

We will just have to wait and see what actually comes out from both.

Rigley
03-25-2004, 04:56 AM
"If you're attending GDC 2004 (Game Developers Conference) in San Jose and would like to see modo in action, drop by the AMD or nVidia booths to get a demo.

AMD Booth: 11:30 - close each day
nVidia Booth: 11:30 - 1:30 each day"

info from luxology.net

i can't go, becouse i am in Europe, but i am really curious.

lwbob
03-25-2004, 05:00 AM
Not hearing much so far, just some pictures of X-box banners from NewTek.

SheepFactory
03-25-2004, 06:21 AM
I'll be at gdc tomorrow and friday , i'll let you guys know if there is anything new going on.

Nemoid
03-25-2004, 09:54 AM
thank you, Sheep Factory ! :thumbsup:

SheepFactory
03-25-2004, 11:54 PM
New info:


Modo will be priced at $690 and will be released q2 , around june-july



Thats what the demo person told me.

wrosado
03-26-2004, 01:28 AM
hmmm...$690...

were you able to sneak a peek at modo?

Didn't they have a demo set up?


Thanks for the update!

CIM
03-26-2004, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
New info:


Modo will be priced at $690 and will be released q2 , around june-july



Thats what the demo person told me.

Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:

Per-Anders
03-26-2004, 01:51 AM
it was being demoed, i played with it a bit this time. from the very brief play (got about as far as making a sphere) it feels very similar to lw modeler, only with some nice additional controls, gizmos and gadgets.

however like i said, i didn't have time to really explore, only time to get a cursory glance through some of the menus, and locate a few primitive tools, so it's just my innitial impression after about 2 minutes of playtime.

Beamtracer
03-26-2004, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
Modo will be priced at $690 and will be released q2 , around june-julyWow. Our intrepid reporter on the scene, Sheep Factory, has brought us the scoop again! You should wear a little sign on your hat that says "Press".

I think the release-date information should be regarded as a general estimate. I think Brad Peebler has been reluctant to give exact release dates, as projects usually take a bit longer than originally estimated. It's good to know that Modo is likely to be released in that time frame.

Is $690 the price for the general public, or is that the special price for existing Lightwavers? Will the special price be available to users of LW7.5, or must they upgrade to LW8 first before they can get the LW price for Modo?

Thanks, Sheep Factory, for your efforts!

SheepFactory
03-26-2004, 02:39 AM
thats the general price , he said there is nothing official about the special discount for lw users yet.


ps: i was wearing a press sign ;)

private
03-26-2004, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
Modo will be priced at $690 and will be released q2 , around june-july


At $690, the Silo guys must be loving this. With the improvements of Silo, and at the rate they are making them, that $690 just became less attractive. In addition, when Newtek evaluates what Lux addressed in Modo (what should have been done with Lightwave modeler earlier) I'm sure Newtek will also try to play catch up/copy cat, which again, makes the $690 less attractive...considering Modeler is bundled with an animation suite, dynamics and a renderer.

When Lux's suite does come together, at $690 x 3 (for the animation and SFX/Render modules), it stays pretty competitive to Maya and even more so to XSI. If they keep the upgrade route that they held while developing for Newtek, after the initial investment, many people could be really happy.

There are lots of options there right now. I'm just wondering when the shake up starts and who is left standing.

Zithen
03-26-2004, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
New info:


Modo will be priced at $690 and will be released q2 , around june-july

Wow. I have to wonder what has changed for Modo in the course of a year since I saw it at siggraph 03. Modo seemed pretty stable and complete then. What about the whole animation/render modules? That's what I really want to see.
I still don't see any compelling reason to get Modo, especially at $690. I think I'd only get Modo with the whole Nexus suite.
And it's kinda irking me that Lux have not marketed Modo with more information on their website as they said they would, especially if they intend to release it in a few months. They are coming across, right out of the gate, as a company that, though seemingly with a very innovative product, isn't a company I can fully trust...or take their words seriously. From the whole LW affair to saying they're not competitors with other 3d apps and/or not updating the website and adding more info on Modo. The hype is thinning for me. I feel I want them to put up.

From the looks of the 3d OS and UI of Modo, I feel (or want) Lux to have a very bright future. But I don't think their marketing is on the bullseye right now. What's the point of showing demos when most people in the world wonít be able to see it? Why not have demos on the website for everyone to see? I just don't get their marketing strategy, since my excitement over it has lessened a bit.

CIM
03-26-2004, 06:50 AM
And it's kinda irking me that Lux have not marketed Modo with more information on their website as they said they would, especially if they intend to release it in a few months.

Why would Luxology or any self-respecting company blab about an incomplete product? They're doing what's common: releasing bits and peices to create hype and/or anticipation. I'm sure they'll release enough information when they're sure they'll be shipping. Until then, be happy with what they give you. :rolleyes:

Zithen
03-26-2004, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by CIM
Why would Luxology or any self-respecting company blab about an incomplete product? They're doing what's common: releasing bits and peices to create hype and/or anticipation. I'm sure they'll release enough information when they're sure they'll be shipping. Until then, be happy with what they give you. :rolleyes:
I'm not happy. Now what? :rolleyes:

Nemoid
03-26-2004, 09:30 AM
$ 690 seems an expensive price compared to Silo's $109, but it all depends from what modelling tools Modo will have at its disposal, and from the structure of the app, very open IMO.

Everyone would like to know about other modules, even because for only a modelling app, the risk is big , with that price tag. in the opposite case this module could be a part of the whole app, you could buy separately if you want. but this is speculation.

I - incredible!- am with CIM about their policy. they surely will release more infos as the release date is closer. Obvious. :)

They quite promised some vids, though. but we never saw them.

thanx for the Infos , Sheep Factory!! you rock! :thumbsup:

CIM
03-26-2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Nemoid
$ 690 seems an expensive price compared to Silo's $109, but it all depends from what modelling tools Modo will have at its disposal, and from the structure of the app, very open IMO.

I think $690 is a fair price for Modo. Considering the information released so far, it'll more than likely be well worth it. Plus, if you think of it, if Newtek, Alias, or Softimage released standalone versions of their modeling toolsets, they'd be just as much if not more.

Nemoid
03-26-2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by CIM
I think $690 is a fair price for Modo. Considering the information released so far, it'll more than likely be well worth it. Plus, if you think of it, if Newtek, Alias, or Softimage released standalone versions of their modeling toolsets, they'd be just as much if not more.

I agree!! :beer: :eek:

tjnyc
03-26-2004, 12:47 PM
From what I saw from the videos of Modo back when I can't see $690 being justified, with that price you can get SILO + ZBrush 2.0, which is by far a killer combo than Modo. However, not much more info has been released, so I will reserve judgement, but like Vincent Vega said it better be the best mother*%$# $5 milk shake that I ever tasted.


Cheers,

Thalaxis
03-26-2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by tjnyc
From what I saw from the videos of Modo back when I can't see $690 being justified, with that price you can get SILO + ZBrush 2.0, which is by far a killer combo than Modo. However, not much more info has been released, so I will reserve judgement, but like Vincent Vega said it better be the best mother*%$# $5 milk shake that I ever tasted.


Exactly what I was thinking :)

And it seems that ZBrush is much closer to being revolutionary
than Modo.

:beer:

Zithen
03-26-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by Nemoid

I - incredible!- am with CIM about their policy. they surely will release more infos as the release date is closer. Obvious. :)

They quite promised some vids, though. but we never saw them.

I believe that was my point. Of course you'd release more info as you're closer to release. But didn't they say they would release more info or videos on modo many months ago? For a new company, I think it's important to show your words are firm in the beginning.
And I don't think $690 is unreasonable. It's just that the market for a stand-alone modeler has gotten pretty competitive recently. Modo would have to show some functionality that you couldn't get anywhere else for me to want to buy it. The 3d OS, UI and Open architecture are way more attractive to me if/when you have the animation and render modules as well. For the exception of brush style modeling and surface painting a la Zbrush, I think I have what I need as far as modeling. It's the animation and rendering tools that still have a long way to go.

Nemoid
03-26-2004, 02:55 PM
Well, i can model in Lw, even if i have nor edges, n gons and many other things. Modo will have them, but surely will have not only this. My personal opinion is that we didn't see everything. so maybe someone at GDC can tell us something more about the modo tools.??

this being said, I am excited for the new structure Modo has, and if some other module will come this structure will allow the app to be one of the best out there for sure.

You're right . Z brush is an excellent app, though. its really revolutionary in its concept, really a new way to model at all.
and its price is cheap.

can't wait for the Zbrush 2.0
But can't wait for Modo 1.0 as well. :drool:

lwbob
03-26-2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by private In addition, when Newtek evaluates what Lux addressed in Modo (what should have been done with Lightwave modeler earlier) I'm sure Newtek will also try to play catch up/copy cat, which again, makes the $690 less attractive

Yeah, especially how fast they caught up with Maya, Max and XSI.


When Lux's suite does come together, at $690 x 3 (for the animation and SFX/Render modules)

I must have missed the press release that announced that pricing. Thanks for clearing that up.

CIM
03-26-2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by tjnyc
From what I saw from the videos of Modo back when I can't see $690 being justified, with that price you can get SILO + ZBrush 2.0, which is by far a killer combo than Modo.

Modo 1.0 isn't out, nor is enough information about it, so don't even bother judging it yet. :rolleyes:

BazC
03-27-2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by tjnyc
From what I saw from the videos of Modo back when I can't see $690 being justified, with that price you can get SILO + ZBrush 2.0,

True, or you could get Cinema base app and Mesh Surgery, hell I've seen Lightwave on special offer for not much more than this! It better have something pretty special up it's sleeve! - Baz

JDex
03-27-2004, 08:57 AM
Wings3D... it's all you need. :p

CIM
03-27-2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by JDex
Wings3D... it's all you need. :p

Yeah, if all you model is low-polygon characters. :p

JDex
03-27-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by CIM
Yeah, if all you model is low-polygon characters. :p

Got a 37000 poly model open right now... no slugishness to report.

lwbob
03-27-2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by BazC
It better have something pretty special up it's sleeve! - Baz

Why would they have anything besides an average modeler in store?


Luxology Senior engineers:
Matthew Craig - Lightwave's graph and image editors.
Gregory Duquesne - Lightwave's volumetrics and surfacing.
Mark Brown - Lightwave's Non linear animation system.
Joe Angell - Lightwave's Spreadsheet.
Eric Soulvie - BESM/gMil and 3D tools for Matrix movies.
Arnie Cachelin - Master degree in Physics.




I hate to leave Jason off this list but he didn't fit in with my point, so I'll mention him here. Jason Linhart is their web and education material dude.

BazC
03-27-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by lwbob
Why would they have anything besides an average modeler in store?



I have no idea! $690 is an awful lot of cash for an average modeler though!

lwbob
03-27-2004, 11:45 AM
I have no idea! $690 is an awful lot of cash for an average modeler though!

Sorry, I didn't think I needed to point out the use of sarcasm in the post.

tjnyc
03-27-2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by CIM
Modo 1.0 isn't out, nor is enough information about it, so don't even bother judging it yet. :rolleyes:

Uh? That is why I wrote the next line for :rolleyes:


However, not much more info has been released, so I will reserve judgement, but like Vincent Vega said it better be the best mother*%$# $5 milk shake that I ever tasted.

Claymation
03-27-2004, 08:41 PM
They are coming out into some tight space when it comes to modelers.

Silo is already 3 updates in and has a completely customizable interface and is getting more powerful with each update. So I consider that the bottom floor of modelers. I hate to say it but Truespace a program I used a million years ago has now become a pretty good modeler and is in there with silo and wings in capability. Lets not forget zBrush.

Higher up is Lightwave and 3DSMax and Maya and Cinema4D so they are going to have to completely redefine modeling as we all know it for it to be worth that kind of money or at least have a number of 3rd party people making renderers and other features ready to plug in when it comes out.

On the horizon is Mirai and Clay, since they aren't out yet.

I Would consider $700 if it is an awesome modeler, UV texturing software and has endomorph/morph target creation AND can export directly to max, lightwave, and maya since they are the big ones. I would think at least maya and lightwave but the more the better.

Well that's my thougths until more info is released.

SheepFactory
03-27-2004, 10:10 PM
yeah the thing about modo is , you can import endomorphs and blendshapes and modify them non destructively in modo and export back.

the demo person told us that , if you have say a dynamics simulation\cloth simulation , you can import to modo , make changes and reexport to maya and you dont have to run the dynamics simulation again it keeps the changes.


Last day there was a big modo demo at the ati booth , they showed some nice workflow stuff such as history , repeat commands , easily changeable reference planes. when i write it here it doesnt sound like such a big deal so you have to see it to understand , luxology should release some new videos or info about it , they are already showing it at trade shows so i dont know whats taking them so long.


Whether or not $690 is justified remains to be seen.

ambient-whisper
03-27-2004, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Claymation
On the horizon is Mirai and Clay, since they aren't out yet.


Clay wont be out for years as far as i know. but he did tell me a while ago that there could be a more open beta sometime after 50-75%. but that will be a WHILE still.

Claymation
03-28-2004, 03:15 AM
That is why i put clay and mirai off on the horizon. There is no telling when either will be out. Mirai site is back and they will be doing betas but that is no indication of when it will be out or for sale and if they are in the $3-4000 range then they are not really part of the discussion.

Modo:
Does it export directly to maya, max and lightwave? or do we have to use kaydara. A history is a great thing to have and sounds pretty good.

will be interesting to see where this goes

lwbob
03-28-2004, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by Claymation
Modo:
Does it export directly to maya, max and lightwave? or do we have to use kaydara. A history is a great thing to have and sounds pretty good.


I can't imagine them trying to wedge themselves into a pipeline by needing another application to convert to and from itself to what you are trying to work with. Max is a tricky one to export/import from since it is procedural based and even converters need to be run from inside Max.

SheepFactory
03-28-2004, 04:12 AM
yes it does export directly to maya and lw , in fact it reads writes maya and lw file formats. Thats the whole selling point.

Gwot
03-28-2004, 04:23 AM
Does it have any bone deformation or setup tools? I'm not sure it's got enough to impress me with that price tag from what I've seen, but bone and morph support between it and LW might change that...

Zithen
03-28-2004, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
yes it does export directly to maya and lw , in fact it reads writes maya and lw file formats. Thats the whole selling point.
Hm, I'm not seeing the whole picture. I don't see how that's a selling point, as in something I just gotta have. Only when they have the animation and rendering modules, coupled with the 3d OS, UI etc is it a selling point for me. It's the whole system, not Modo by itself that attracts me. But I'd like to be shown otherwise.
Also, if Modo is supposed to come out in June/July, then I'm sure I'll have plenty of time to relax until the big Nexus. Like next year.

lwbob
03-28-2004, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by Gwot
Does it have any bone deformation or setup tools? I'm not sure it's got enough to impress me with that price tag from what I've seen, but bone and morph support between it and LW might change that...


Why would you want to do bone deformation and rigging in a modeler when the animation package you will be using will most likely deform it differently? And don't forget this is a modeler. Kinda like asking if the windows calculator has a spellchecker.

Gwot
03-28-2004, 06:59 AM
I didn't say rigging. Being able to test bone deformation shouldn't be limited to the rigging or animation process. It should be a major part of character creation from the start.

Modeler's skelegons would be a lot more useful if they behaved more like real bones. Setting up joint morphs and such is more of a geometry edit than a keyframing or rigging procedure. And what's wrong with being able to test your deformation as you build your mesh rather than having to wait till it's done? Or just being able to pose it? Or even create geometry from bones? Zbrush essentially does this with Zspheres, and Silo will have a feature like this soon enough.

http://www.nevercenter.com/index.php/Labs/381

Anyone who has had to do character setup in Lightwave for games knows that you have some tools in modeler and some in layout and that the two do not flow seamlessly from one to the other and back. So you can either move all of LWs setup tools over to layout and I'd be happy to do things there, or you can move them over to modeler and I'd be just as happy, if not more so. Or you can provide a 3rd party solution (like modo) that does the same thing.

If modo is supposed to be a great new modeling app I'd like it to measure up by providing some of the tools I think are necessary to do so for that price. Can anyone who's seen it demoed answer that? Seriously, I want to know.

I want tools that innovate and make my life as an artist easier. I'm willing to pay for that. But I'm not willing to pay for the same old crap in a prettier package.

Nemoid
03-28-2004, 08:37 AM
We'll know more about modo in time.

however, It could be a good companion modeler with other apps, both Lw and Maya with a good workflow and good import export. the tools described till now are surely enough to make it a good modeler, but maybe not so revolutionary as we thought at first. a good system to test model deformation is somewhat required IMO. if not you'll have to go back and forth from let's say Maya to modo and vice versa. not a good workflow at all. i'm happy for UV tools however, so maybe some tools for deformation will be there as well.

the open structure of the app is what i like the most for now, because allows great possibility for the app to add new features and be very flexible too. other eventual modules even made from 3rd party will integrate totally in this structure.

the initial Lux strategy is to provide a good companion modeler for other apps , with the most flexible and opened structure possible, and customizable too. then, maybe they will go further and directly add other modules to Modo, to complete it as a whole app. for example first an animation module, compatible with a third party solution, and at the end a Lux rendering solution. its a clever process IMO.even from marketing POV.
maybe every module could be compatible with other big apps around as well, so that you could buy modo, or the animation app separately, depending from your needs.

this would be something great .

another thing I'd like to see are some tools just like ZBrush but i think this will not happen, and why imitating something when you have the best yet?

Beamtracer
03-28-2004, 10:47 AM
So when you hit the "Save" button in Modo, you are presented with the option to save your model in either ".lwo" (Lightwave) or ".obj" (Maya) format. But was there a ".lux" format available?

Rigley
03-28-2004, 11:13 AM
I wonder if modo can save in *.mb or .ma (Maya binary or ascii) format. *.obj is not a big deal.
.lux ? :) maybe...

but if you watch the screengrabs from modo carefully, you can spot *.nxs
Probably nexus.

Labuzz
03-28-2004, 05:58 PM
I didn't say rigging. Being able to test bone deformation shouldn't be limited to the rigging or animation process. It should be a major part of character creation from the start. Modeler's skelegons would be a lot more useful if they behaved more like real bones. Setting up joint morphs and such is more of a geometry edit than a keyframing or rigging procedure. And what's wrong with being able to test your deformation as you build your mesh rather than having to wait till it's done? Or just being able to pose it? Or even create geometry from bones? Zbrush essentially does this with Zspheres, and Silo will have a feature like this soon enough. http://www.nevercenter.com/index.php/Labs/381 Anyone who has had to do character setup in Lightwave for games knows that you have some tools in modeler and some in layout and that the two do not flow seamlessly from one to the other and back. So you can either move all of LWs setup tools over to layout and I'd be happy to do things there, or you can move them over to modeler and I'd be just as happy, if not more so. Or you can provide a 3rd party solution (like modo) that does the same thing. If modo is supposed to be a great new modeling app I'd like it to measure up by providing some of the tools I think are necessary to do so for that price. Can anyone who's seen it demoed answer that? Seriously, I want to know. I want tools that innovate and make my life as an artist easier. I'm willing to pay for that. But I'm not willing to pay for the same old crap in a prettier package.
Yep can be very interesting to know, I would love to have a tool that combine the really flexable weighting solution that you have in lw ( bind, unbind,....is a pain in Maya ) with the Maya animation tools. I just want to add that messiah is also a tool to consider, currently there's no weighting solution ( point level access ) but this can happen in the future since there's some requests from users ( for 3d real time type of work ) .

lwbob
03-28-2004, 06:08 PM
messiah has a weighting system. Most of the time you don't need it though.

Gwot
03-28-2004, 06:25 PM
Yeah I gave Messiah a run after the big update, but it wasn't quite as quick nor elegant a solution for me. I'll probably check it out again if/when they add better support for weights and bones to/from LW. I really liked it as a setup and animation package but there's a few too many hoops to have to jump through just yet to get my animation back into LW and out to a game engine.

I mentioned it to the PMG awhile back that I'd like to be able to get my bone rotations (or even my entire Messiah skeleton preferably) from messiah back to LW as well, without having to do extra setup steps. This is why I use Motion Builder. There's no extra steps involved - just build the skeleton, let motion builder rig it (big bonus). Animate it, send it back to LW and export.

Labuzz
03-28-2004, 06:35 PM
I mentioned it to the PMG awhile back that I'd like to be able to get my bone rotations (or even my entire Messiah skeleton preferably) from messiah back to LW as well, without having to do extra setup steps. This is why I use Motion Builder. There's no extra steps involved - just build the skeleton, let motion builder rig it (big bonus). Animate it, send it back to LW and export.

Yep, the better solution is to be able to export the complete skeleton from messiah (with support of lw weight maps and a good component editor in messiah), I hope this will happen one day :)

lwbob
03-31-2004, 04:06 PM
Since there are Luxology employees following this thread, when are we going to get those videos?

pelos
04-06-2004, 09:16 PM
bad for me, no Nurbs suport, i guess they will be like in LW
once you set them the pach you do is not modify in real time, you have to delete the faces and redo all again

Beamtracer
04-06-2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
yes it does export directly to maya and lw , in fact it reads writes maya and lw file formats. Thats the whole selling point. I think it would be great to have this "universal" modeling package that can export to just about any format.

I can see they would have trouble exporting to 3DS Max, as Discreet keeps the Max file format a secret. I wonder if Luxology will find a way around this.

lwbob
04-06-2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by pelos
bad for me, no Nurbs suport, i guess they will be like in LW
once you set them the pach you do is not modify in real time, you have to delete the faces and redo all again

I guess you haven't kept up to date with the whole subdivision surface thing? It isn't like you are building your objects with bricks.

craiggulow
04-07-2004, 06:05 AM
I can see they would have trouble exporting to 3DS Max, as Discreet keeps the Max file format a secret. I wonder if Luxology will find a way around this. [/B]
The 3ds max file format is the scene file. And it's not a secret. Technically, max does not have a file format for models. Any model file would have to support the modifier stack and any 3rd party (plug-ins) modifiers would not work with such a format. To move models you use an importer/exporter.
From the P.O.V. of how max works internally, this makes sense. Personally, I don't think this is the best methodology for a production environment. It's possible that one of the original design limitations the Yost Group based their work upon was thinking that max would be all the 3d environment you would need. I doubt if they considered it a limitation at the time.
Still, it's been ten years since max was conceptualized. It's an old horse. Lightwave is even older. I think (I might remember the date wrong) Hastings was showing what would become the LW renderer in 1986.
And to tie this to Modo somehow... Go here:
History of Lightwave (http://personal.southern.edu/~dascott/lwhistory/)
Stuart Ferguson's Aegis Modeler shows a copyright date of 1987. In CG timescales, Modo is way overdue.

lwbob
04-07-2004, 03:56 PM
That sounds like the best spin on the Max format. :)

If you need to get an object into Max you would need to pull it in from a 3ds or obj format. The workflow problem comes from the Max end of that pipe.

Nemoid
04-07-2004, 04:18 PM
Well, Hastings and Ferguson were quite 2 pioneers when projecting a modeler and a renderer in these years. Lw suffers alot of being old, with an old structure and 2 separated apps working together through a third app. I dunno why they didn't project a uniform environment nor why they used C instead of C++ when making it (maybe it was good at the time, but i doubt it since C++ is 25 years old language)

this being said , their ideas of workflow at the time were quite good, but when apps like Maya were born, these apps really changed the way of making 3D allowing to the user mostly much more flexibility, the power to stratify better their job, and extending the possibility to build plugins wich integrate well in the app code and structure.

Now,with Lux, they had the possiibility to build a new environment, wich, with their experienceand skills can be even better than Maya's just because it seems to be very very open.

about the Modo toolset, maybe we don't know all, and maybe it will be extended after the app release. Nurbs would be good for sure, as well as some tool a la z brush for sure. ( z brush seems to have changed the way to model for 3d as well, though :scream: )

actually i think than, more than a plain modeler, Modo will be the base module of a new kind of environment working smoothly both with other apps and with other future modules as well.

liquidik
04-07-2004, 05:44 PM
Have read all the thread and followed what has been said. Being a user of both Maya and LW, I think that, even though Modo can be a godsend in the paper, what it lacks is timing.
Be onest and think...Maya is what it is for its architecture and all the good things that it can do, but what made it great is that it was the right application at the right time (think of what xsi could have been if released earlier, or project messiah). At the time of 1.0 in fact, softimage was still at 3.7/3.8, Max was at 2.5/3 and LW at 5.6. They all have evolved but the features that Maya gave to all where exactly what was needed at that time.
What I think is that XSI lives a life of his own, LW is very very late, and max seems to have lost focus on development. Maya still remains the one who drives industry, just because is "right for the time", right with features, right with price...
Modo at the moment is only a ghost, a promising one, but still a ghost...

My 2 cents...

lwbob
04-07-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by liquidik
[B]Maya is what it is for its architecture and all the good things that it can do, but what made it great is that it was the right application at the right time.

When Maya 1.0 came out all I heard was people bitching about how buggy it was. Marketing Maya is just as strong as it's toolset. When it falls short in one area the hype of the most powerful application makes up for it.

You make a good and obvious point that it isn't out yet. What if Modo is the 3d OS that eveyone that reports? That sounds like it could be as powerful as Maya. The right time is when the moeny people see what they ahve to spend to get the job done. Usually they go for cheaper faster over shiny, "someone else won an award with.." But there are plenty of big studio retards that think using the software that Pixar uses will make them as good as Pixar.

Basically it will really be hard to judge the benefits of Mod until it comes out.

liquidik
04-07-2004, 06:14 PM
Yep, in some part I agree. I really hope that Modo doesn't go the Messiah route...it really seems to have the opportunity to give the whole thing a great spin.

Let's see (Siggraph is not thet far, there will be surprises this year!!!)

annaleah
04-07-2004, 06:34 PM
*********just sits waiting for Maya Unlimited 6....and laughing********










Annaleah

Nemoid
04-07-2004, 06:58 PM
IMO every application can be at the right time, if 3 conditions verify :

1) it changes the way to work
2) it's adopded from the industry as a good tool
3) it's delivered to solo artists/small studios

the first condition means that if something is revolutionary enough to change the way to work, no matter what time it arrives it has great possibilities to be used and its innovations reflect also in other products.

the 2nd its equally important. if a tool is adopted from the industry its importance and power grow, because of its reputation, and also because industry looks at production times and asks better tools and gives the right imputs to the developers to create the right tools with the right workflow.

the 3rd, finally is important to grow the app success and to obtain, through the community requests an user friendly app. in fact often in the industry, apps, even those created in house aren't always user friendly just because who uses them doesn't need this as a primary point. this also ensures the success of the app in years.just like it happened to VHS against Betamax or other formats in video cassettes.price is also a good item to take into consideration.

so, this is to say : even Modo can come at the right time. if you analyze the conditions Maya had and have all of them, but no one can say that a new product can't do even better. Z brush, for example seems to be good too, and the only limitation is that its not an animation app for now.

the goodness that modo could bring in the future is that it could be just like a Lightwave into a very modern environment, with a simlar workflow, based on user friendly and funny approach but at the same time very powerful and flexible. indeed a modular structure is the best u can have right now,because it allows a great flexibility even for selling them separately and for the user eventually to buy only one of them just because he goes for a mixed pipeline. You could also have a Modo/Maya pipeline, as well as a Zbrush/ Lux animation module pipeline and so on.

Finally, modules are good also for developing. they will at first release modo, then hopefully some other module.
divide and conquer.

lwbob
04-07-2004, 07:49 PM
I'm just continuing this little chat not flaming.

The "You" mentioned is just the person on the other end of the argument not a specific person.

If it is important how an application impacts YOU what does it matter if the industry adopts it? Now I know that this excludes you from taking specific software skill to another job. If you are interested in working for someone else then application's benefits to YOU aren't that important.


As Nimoid pointed out adding Modules is open ended. There is nothing stopping Pixar from adding and then selling an animation package to connect. We could even see a Pixologic-zbrush extension to Modo for all the people that can't stand the zbrush UI.

Nemoid
04-08-2004, 10:54 AM
:) no prob about flaming : we are discussing kindly and politely.

Well, IMO the direction towards 3D app developing must go, is towards the solo user, that have to be able to go from modelling, to texturing, and animating and rendering as a flow.

this is also because becoming a specialized kinda artist is not so good for the industry as well in the long term. its good for organization, but if the app helps you to become a more well rounded user its way better. long experienced users are well rounded because they had to do everything of their 3D projects.

right now, making top notch works for small studios, lets say 3- 4 persons is really possible, but they have to be still a bit more experienced than usual, or at least having worked with very experienced users to learn better making 3D.

the reason is simple: not always the workflow of an app allows you to rule in every aspect of it. instead, if you do a very user friendly,intuitive but powerful app, no one can complain, nor the newbie or solo artist nor the huge studios.

an app adopted by the industry has a great future for sure. lets think to z brush and weta. weta gave a great imput on the developing of the app. surely enhanced 100% from the good starting point of the 1.55 release. why? they needed tools to sculpt in an intuitive way and sobstitute partially clay modelled maquettes. so, this is a direct example of how industry guide development.

a good thing i noticed about Modo is that lux is someway connected with the industry and good studios, and this can allow good features.

policarpo
04-08-2004, 02:25 PM
What the 3D industry needs is the equivalent of Photoshop. Photoshop is a tool used by Hobbyist and Pros and offers unlimited potential in the creation of their final work. The tool is flexible enough to allow you to do exactly what you want to do and can be mastered rather quickly.

When a company figures out how to bring that type of relationship to our 3D world, then we will have seen true innovation.

ZBrush is a step in this direction...I think the next three to five years will present us with a whole new suite of tools that are really focused on getting our ideas out faster and with higher quality results...lord knows that the market could use such innovations.

Nemoid
04-08-2004, 07:04 PM
Agree totally! :beer:

Beamtracer
04-29-2004, 02:29 AM
Milestone: We recently passed the 2 year anniversary when Stuart Ferguson, Alan Hastings and Brad Peebler left Newtek to form Luxology.

Time flies!

leuey
04-29-2004, 07:05 AM
So does that mean they've had enough time to put together a demo video? Because their competition is putting out new features left and right and they keep getting my money.

modo, where art thou?

-Greg

Originally posted by Wanker
Milestone: We recently passed the 2 year anniversary when Stuart Ferguson, Alan Hastings and Brad Peebler left Newtek to form Luxology.

Time flies!

Nemoid
04-29-2004, 09:51 AM
Maybe we will see something for Siggraph? :eek:

Chewey
04-29-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Wanker
Milestone: We recently passed the 2 year anniversary when Stuart Ferguson, Alan Hastings and Brad Peebler left Newtek to form Luxology.

Time flies!

that's quite noteworthy...

mrmartin100
04-29-2004, 12:49 PM
I haven't seen this posted before. But there's a short (10-15 minute) demo of Modo by Brad Peebler at the DV Garage site. Apparently, it was part of a local cable show in the Bay Area called Inside the Black Box.

From what I can tell, it was done either late last year or early this year, as it mentions a 1st quarter release of the product.

You can find it under the Lab section. Worth a watch, as it's fairly high quality (compared to the otther videos we've seen).

markdc
04-29-2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by mrmartin100
I haven't seen this posted before. But there's a short (10-15 minute) demo of Modo by Brad Peebler at the DV Garage site. Apparently, it was part of a local cable show in the Bay Area called Inside the Black Box.

From what I can tell, it was done either late last year or early this year, as it mentions a 1st quarter release of the product.

You can find it under the Lab section. Worth a watch, as it's fairly high quality (compared to the otther videos we've seen).

Thanks for the link. It is a good video. The first quarter has passed so hopefully we'll see something soon.

mbaldwin
04-29-2004, 09:56 PM
mr martin,

I missed seeing that one. It's re-peaked my interest in modo. thanks!

minus
04-30-2004, 03:52 AM
Nice!
That Video is named (03/29/04) or someting like that .... So I think it was made at the end of last month. And if he is still saying 1st Quarter then..... well..

:love:

I need to do some reverse speech on it yet to try and figure out what he was *really* saying.. ;)

minus
04-30-2004, 03:59 AM
Here is a SS of the video Name... Heh... wouldn't make a bad avatar.

http://www.opnotic.com/wip/sdfsf.jpg

Claymation
04-30-2004, 12:30 PM
nice video but still no movies of anyone doing any complex modeling in it. Still want to see what new tools or other things are there in the workflow.

version
04-30-2004, 01:51 PM
I hope they release some more details soon, it's looking like an interesting program.

mrmartin100
04-30-2004, 02:47 PM
God and a few other people deeply involved seem to be the only ones who know what caused the breach between Mr. Peebler, et al, and Newtek. But as an outside observer and longtime Lightwave hobbyist, I will be buying their modeling product and probably whatever else they produce.

I watch the Lux video and listen to other tidbits that leek out about Modo and Iím excited. And itís not the specifics about the program that get my adrenaline going. I donít need to hear about a lot of new toolsets or specific features because thereís clearly been a lot of thought and spark put in the program already.

The Lux group has had the luxury of starting over. And they sound like they are integrating the best and the coolest in designing the interface. And Iíve got to believe the features sets will follow in like manner.

In contrast, the earth has cooled considerably since LW 8 was announced. And from early reports, this constellation of compiled plug-ins seems marginal, at best.

Gone are the days when LW was implementing cutting edge tech, such as radiosity and HDRI. The program is becoming geriatric technology.

Frankly, LW started to bore me last year when the less than dazzling feature sets were announced. Then, as a Mac User, Newtek began to anger me. I was promised an upgrade premium comparable to DXF+. I waited to what seemed the eleventh hour to order it late last year Ė as it was supposed to ship by the end of 2003.

Not only can I not use the damn thing, but I canít even sell DXF unless I fork out another $100 for a dongle. But I bought it because a piece of useless software was better than no software and I wasnít sure if the upgrade price would be raised after Christmas.

Well, days after I get my DXF+, I get word that they finally have a Mac compatible offer that I canít take advantage of.

Then I hear that 8 isnít going to ship Fourth Quarter, but Iím still paying the interest on my Visa bill for it. After months of more waiting, we get word itís trickling out due to fulfillment problems. And now early reports also suggest that has been no Mac G5 optimization.

As a consumer, Iíve had it.

Like I said, I donít know what caused the Lux/Newtek splt. But it seems to me it was a management mistake to let it happen. And all that Iíve seen since from Newtek has been one blunder after another.

Iím not investing any more in Lightwave.
I'm really looking forward to what Luxology has to offer.

Claymation
04-30-2004, 03:52 PM
I didn't mean to say that modo can't be amazing, but that all the videos i've seen are just interface wows. they never show someone building a face or show any new tools. Look at silo with it I can just sketch new edges anywhere on a surface, a wow tool. zbrush has it's new zsphere technology.. a wow tool. so far the only wow going for modo is its interface. I was just hoping they have some wow tools to go along with their interface.

as for newtek/lux I didn't mean to start a war just noticed that yet another grtoup of disgruntled programmers has left newtek and we lightwave users have lost out again. the other group started up project messiah. imagine if messiah and modo where built into lightwave... that is what I am sad about. The best talent seems to leave with their best ideas.

Anyway looking forward to seeing what modo has to offer

Labuzz
04-30-2004, 04:08 PM
as for newtek/lux I didn't mean to start a war just noticed that yet another grtoup of disgruntled programmers has left newtek and we lightwave users have lost out again. the other group started up project messiah. imagine if messiah and modo where built into lightwave... that is what I am sad about. The best talent seems to leave with their best ideas. Anyway looking forward to seeing what modo has to offer

Agree completly....Really stupid in the end...

Anyway I can't wait to try for Modo!:), its about time guys

gfx-dude
04-30-2004, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Claymation
The only disturbing part of that video is when he says they were squirreling away technology for when they left newtek. Kinda sad.

I didn't hear that part of it, but then I don't wear a tinfoil hat while listening to Art Bell either. Could it be that you hear something and assumed they did that?

Claymation
04-30-2004, 07:22 PM
I am not trying to point fingers just saying that I wished things could of went better at newtek so all these great ideas wouldn't have left.

Where is this line? right at the beginning of the video, LOL impossible to miss:

at 40 sec in
Host: so all this time you been working though....
Brad: Very privately, secretely, ah squirreling away technology
Host: so what are...

there is NO mistaken what he just said.

gfx-dude
04-30-2004, 07:41 PM
No mistake in what he said, the problem is there seems to be a mistake in what was meant. See I took that as "all this time" meaning the past two years that Luxology existed. Not all this time that we have been at NewTek. Keep in mind also that Brad was an employee, Allan and Stuart were not, they were contractors and contractors usually don't have contracts that state all creations are owned by the company.


The tinfoil hat thing didn't come across as intended. :) It was mean as a joke about the conspiracy theories that have come up for the past two years.

This next part is not directed at anyone.

Has anyone thought that maybe Newtek isn't the group of angels that everyone makes them out to be in this? I'm not saying that they are all crooks or that they have slave children in the basement. Maybe JUST maybe the people that formed Luxology aren't the villians that the LW worshipers make them out to be.


Personally I am glad to see them break off. Have you been to the LW forum here lately? It has become a crap flinging contest since the split. I don't seen the social breakdown or the moderator bias in the Max and Maya groups. Now without being LW this product has a much larger gene pool to pull from for it's user base.

jlinhart
04-30-2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Claymation
Where is this line? right at the beginning of the video, LOL impossible to miss:

at 40 sec in
Host: so all this time you been working though....
Brad: Very privately, secretely, ah squirreling away technology
Host: so what are...

there is NO mistaken what he just said.

Nope, there's no mistaking what he just said,.......except when you make a mistake in listening to what he just said in response to Alex's comments & questions.

"Very privately, secretly, ah squirreling away technology" refers to what Luxology has been doing for the past 2 years. This would be 'after' the time he left NewTek.

.jason
www.luxology.net

Claymation
04-30-2004, 07:58 PM
sorry about that, I apologize.

Watch too many soap operas with my wife.

Claymation
04-30-2004, 08:00 PM
Yeah my interpretation was still tin headed. No offense taken.

As for ivory towered Newtek I didn't imply that either.

Anyway lets get back to talking about any more luxology videos hidden out there on the net.

gfx-dude
04-30-2004, 08:12 PM
sounds good. Since Jason is monitoring this thread when are we going to see the video mentioned on the website?

There is rumor he may even post a short demo video on this site after the show.

:bounce:

jlinhart
04-30-2004, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by gfx-dude
sounds good. Since Jason is monitoring this thread when are we going to see the video mentioned on the website?


I can't officially say when we're going to release more information. I'll post a message in this topic the second it's available.

.jason
www.luxology.net

mrmartin100
04-30-2004, 09:05 PM
My rant was not directed at anyone on this thread. My anger at Newtek surfaced only as I expressed my excitement at Luxology. And my anger at coming home another day and fining LW8 not in my mailbox. I'm beyond frustrated. And believe me, I was not this way five months ago. I read the flame wars about Lux and Newtek with passive indifference.

Not so anymore.

As to heroes and villians, few of us can be the judge as to what happened as we're not privy to the information. All I can talk about is what I see as a customer.

And that is before Brad, et al, left, LW seemed to keep up with adding cool things. In the last two years since they left, it's fallen behind -- greatly. At the same time, Luxology is rumbling around showing off some interesting things.

If management at Newtek made decisions that allowed or caused these guys to leave, then that's stupid and self-destructive to the long term strength of their product and company.

Having witnessed the Lux guys leaving, as well as the Messiah guys, I have to wonder about the corporate culture at Newtek. Why can't they hold these assets? Why do they treat their customers with near-sighted indifference?

There are dysfunctional companies that succeed in short term because they have a hot product they stumbled upon and exploit. They then wane and disappear as the market reveals their incompetence and competitors exceed them. Watching what has happened over the last year leads me to conclude that Newtek is this type of company.

gfx-dude
04-30-2004, 09:05 PM
That will do for now. Images are good to you know. :) Thanks Jason.

markdc
05-01-2004, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by jlinhart
I can't officially say when we're going to release more information. I'll post a message in this topic the second it's available.

.jason
www.luxology.net

Why all the secrecy? You have shown it at least 3 different conferences already (GDC, NAB, Siggraph), right?

Nemoid
05-01-2004, 07:05 PM
They surely will have some surprises to show to us after all this secrecy...hope they will be good :thumbsup:

policarpo
05-01-2004, 09:03 PM
Secrecy?

What secrecy?

They're just doing what any company would do with a new bit of technology.

Show it all off once it's released.

:-)

Can't wait for Siggraph 2004. :applause:

Nemoid
05-02-2004, 09:03 AM
Well, a statement like
Very privately, secretly, ah squirreling away technology
suggests at least a mysterious atmosphere around this new puppy...:)

However can't wait for Siggraph 2004 too.

angel
05-03-2004, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by gfx-dude
-snip-Keep in mind also that Brad was an employee, Allan and Stuart were not, they were contractors and contractors usually don't have contracts that state all creations are owned by the company.-snip-

I just droping here to make some of this statement a little clearer... Having done quite a bit of cotracting work myself I can tell you that this is somewhat incorrect. What I mean by "somewhat" is that if somebody is hired for contracting work, the work produced is owned by the employer UNLESS otherwised estipulated in a contract, that is the normal business practice. To go a bit further; after the assignment is completed you have to get permission (in writting to avoind problems my word against yours doesn't help you in court if necessary) in order to use it for promotional purposes.

I have no idea how familiar you are with the business aspect of our profession but I can tell you that nobody besides Allan, Stuart, Brad and Newtek know what kind of agreement they signed at the time of hire, so unless one of these parties tell you personally everything will be pure speculation.

gfx-dude
05-03-2004, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by SNoWs
I just droping here to make some of this statement a little clearer... Having done quite a bit of cotracting work myself I can tell you that this is somewhat incorrect. What I mean by "somewhat" is that if somebody is hired for contracting work, the work produced is owned by the employer UNLESS otherwised estipulated in a contract, that is the normal business practice. To go a bit further; after the assignment is completed you have to get permission (in writting to avoind problems my word against yours doesn't help you in court if necessary) in order to use it for promotional purposes.

I have no idea how familiar you are with the business aspect of our profession but I can tell you that nobody besides Allan, Stuart, Brad and Newtek know what kind of agreement they signed at the time of hire, so unless one of these parties tell you personally everything will be pure speculation.


No you are right, BUT, when someone is contracted for a company it is usually the work that they were contracted FOR that belongs to the company. If I am contracted by Discreet to develop a new render engine and I write a modering app in my spare time based off of my own stuff chances are good that Discreet wouldn't try to claim the modeler since I wasn't contracted for that.

angel
05-03-2004, 02:33 PM
yep, you are right, it all depends on how and what wasi in their contract and nobody knows that besides the parties involved.

Beamtracer
05-03-2004, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by mrmartin100
Like I said, I donít know what caused the Lux/Newtek splt. But it seems to me it was a management mistake to let it happen. And all that Iíve seen since from Newtek has been one blunder after another.

Exactly 2 years ago, when key engineers left Newtek and formed Luxology, there was a lot of negative feeling towards the new company. Many people were angry that these software gurus wanted to take things in a different direction to Newtek, and were "walking out".

In hindsight, I now believe it is the best thing that could have happened.

Lightwave 8's features where not what I was looking for. I don't agree with Newtek's roadmap for the future. But most of all it was the Newtekpro magazine debacle that recently made me feel like I don't want to deal with Newtek ever again. That one hit me hard.

I hope that the Luxology team can step in and provide a new technology roadmap to save me having to go to some other software like Maya. I think Lux can create something better than that.

gfx-dude
05-03-2004, 03:32 PM
Wanker I am feeling the same way. I have tried the PLE version of Maya and it always felt like I was dealing with the objects from across a room even while in modeling mode. One thing that I love about LW is that when you are modeling you always have an intimate interaction with the model. Zbrush seems to have this but they feel like it is stuck in you hands.

That video that was found on DV garage didn't show enogh :) The stuff they did show was nice though. I noticed there was a lot going on that is popping up in the current LW feature requests on the LW forum, here and on NewTeks boards.

Thalaxis
05-03-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Wanker
Exactly 2 years ago, when key engineers left Newtek and formed Luxology, there was a lot of negative feeling towards the new company.


I think that a lot of the negative feelings came from the fact that
Lux made some fallacious statements about being the people who
were developing the next LightWave, and the legal issues over
the ownership of LightWave.

It's a case of bad PR giving the company a bad rap.

gfx-dude
05-03-2004, 08:24 PM
But all that seemed to come with good intentions. The developers said they were going to keep developing LW. Newtek came in and started the lawyer stuff. It made sense that they were developing the next lightwave since they developed the previous ones.

--came from the fact that Lux made some fallacious statements about--

That is how the negative posts start.

Renderman_XSI
05-04-2004, 10:12 AM
anyone word on a demo release of Modo?
:shrug:

Beamtracer
05-04-2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by gfx-dude
It made sense that they were developing the next lightwave since they developed the previous ones. It's only a difference in name. Luxology is still developing the next generation of software for current Lightwave users. Only the name gets changed.

Originally posted by Renderman_XSI

XSI V 4.0 needs more modeling tools-__-* I can see why you are looking forward to Modo, so you can use it to model, and render in XSI. Probably a good combination.

Luxology has not given an exact release date for Modo. My guess is that it'll come out in July.

Thalaxis
05-04-2004, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Wanker
It's only a difference in name. Luxology is still developing the next generation of software for current Lightwave users. Only the name gets changed.


No, it's a new product, from a separate company, that will either
compete with or complement LightWave, not the next version of
LightWave. The distinction is quite clear.

They seem to have a pretty nice product in the works, but they
should have restrained themselves in the hype department and
let their product speak for itself.

shingo
05-04-2004, 10:05 PM
By the Way Renderman_XSI, what's withthe "XSI needs more modelling tools" signature? What's missing for you in v4.0? For that matter, so you actually know what's in 4?

Renderman_XSI
05-05-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by shingo
By the Way Renderman_XSI, what's withthe "XSI needs more modelling tools" signature? What's missing for you in v4.0? For that matter, so you actually know what's in 4?

Without re-writting everthing and taking away from this thread, you can this thread:


http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=11460

As wanker pointed out, im looking for a a solid modeling software for my design needs, Modo and Mirai 1.5 is which im lookin into.




:bounce:

JDex
05-05-2004, 12:26 AM
Again... at least until we see what this miracle Modo can do... I am profoundly happy with W3D.

XSI's modelling tools are great IMHO... but I still use W3D for more than 90% of my work. I haven't used XSI4 yet, but for me XSI is the animator/texturer/renderer. My druthers would be for SI to stop bothering w/ improved modeling features and focus on all those other thing they do oh-so-well... but I'm a crazy man.

Renderman_XSI
05-05-2004, 01:04 AM
JDex,

i dont get it, if XSI modeling tools are so great in your opinion, than why are you using Wings3D for your modeling? base on what you said, seems to me Wing3D is better for modeling..which i do agree.

IHMO, XSI modeling tools have a long way to go before catching up to: LW3D,3DSMAX, and Maya even Mirai/Wings3D. All of those apps can easy used to do much technicail modeling(product design,architectural design, etc)

Modo looks like a modeling software i can really get into and click with right away, thats why im looking forward to trying out the demo.



:beer:

JDex
05-05-2004, 01:16 AM
Well basically it boils down to this.

I can model anything in XSI that I can in W3D (or any other app for that matter). I use W3D because it is far more intuitive and makes me happier. I have done some modelling in Maya, Max5, Viz, LW and C4D. If W3D didn't exist, I would use XSI over all the others... firstly because it's modelling tools have done right by me in a more intuitive way than all the others, and secondly because it is my prefered app for all the other things I need/like to do.

There are some features that XSI (as of 3.01) lacks in the modelling department, but so do all of them, W3D included. From the basic stuff I have seen on V4's modelling improvements... I think they are doing a good job of moving forward. It may not yet be the perfect modeller, but in my mind they never will be w/ W3D out and about.

But like I said... I'm a crazy man :p

Renderman_XSI
05-05-2004, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by JDex
Well basically it boils down to this.

I can model anything in XSI that I can in W3D (or any other app for that matter). I use W3D because it is far more intuitive and makes me happier. I have done some modelling in Maya, Max5, Viz, LW and C4D. If W3D didn't exist, I would use XSI over all the others... firstly because it's modelling tools have done right by me in a more intuitive way than all the others, and secondly because it is my prefered app for all the other things I need/like to do.

There are some features that XSI (as of 3.01) lacks in the modelling department, but so do all of them, W3D included. From the basic stuff I have seen on V4's modelling improvements... I think they are doing a good job of moving forward. It may not yet be the perfect modeller, but in my mind they never will be w/ W3D out and about.

But like I said... I'm a crazy man :p

Being intuitive is a big deal to me,but also the controls in the tools have to be there..this is something that not in v. 4.0. Probably because i been spoiled by the amount of tools SolidWorks 2004 has.

Im doing some texturing work in the FXTREE right now..I propbably wont need photoshop for my texturing jobs anymore. :bowdown: matador is awesome..Im sure ED is happy about this also. :bounce:

MoodyB
05-05-2004, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by Renderman_XSI


As wanker pointed out, im looking for a a solid modeling software for my design needs, Modo and Mirai 1.5 is which im lookin into.



If its CSG solid modelling you're after, Realsoft4D might be worth a look ?

shingo
05-05-2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Renderman_XSI


IHMO, XSI modeling tools have a long way to go before catching up to: LW3D,3DSMAX, and Maya even Mirai/Wings3D. All of those apps can easy used to do much technicail modeling(product design,architectural design, etc)


3.01!!! Man, you have any idea how much things have changed since then??

FYI, v 4.0 has made a huge leap in terms of features. And there is a big diffrerence between lackjing modelling tools and intuitiveness. I don;t know how on eaht you can staew that poly /sub-d modelling in Maya is anywhere as complete and featured as the tools in XSI. That thread on XSI base doesn't explain anything. I mean, the knife tool has taken what everyone else has offered to the next level. The beveling functions are out of control.

I saw the Modo vids and played with Wings 3D and there is absolutely nothing either can do that I can't do (and do easily) in XSI 4.0.

Best you stick to making comments about what ytou know my friend.

gfx-dude
05-05-2004, 03:34 PM
Hey take it to the XSI forum. :) <-(you noticed the smiley right?)


Seriously since we are only allowed one modo thread and we are already pushing 30 pages----- :)

Renderman_XSI
05-06-2004, 12:20 AM
yeah shingo, take it to a XSI forum and talk about it in my thread there.

Im trying to get my modo fix here :) I expect the next post to be about the release of modo demo! check back later.

P.S you dont know what your talking about as far as modeling goes in v.4.0

Beamtracer
05-06-2004, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Renderman_XSI
I expect the next post to be about the release of modo demo! Sorry to disappoint you, but the next post was just me! :) I'm hoping Modo will be released by July. All hints point to around that time frame.

Remember the old days when talk about Modo would get deleted from this forum. Now people happily discuss it (the pros & cons), and people are generally very friendly to each other.

In fact, this Modo thread now gets more posts and hits than some other entire forum categories for lesser known software. I think the time has come for Luxology to get its own section in the CGTalk forum.

gfx-dude
05-06-2004, 12:39 AM
Not yet, there is no shipping product.

I've got a feeling there will be other support areas popping up as well when it does ship.

retinajoy
05-06-2004, 02:42 AM
Mmmmm. I wonder if Luxology will release a separate Animation/rendering module after the modelling one?

gfx-dude
05-27-2004, 04:04 PM
Any news on the Modo front? A bunch of people here are really pi55ed off because the copies of LW8 haven't shown up yet and when they do get someone at customer service they say they will find out and get back to them. So far two weeks and no gettin' back to.

Beamtracer
05-27-2004, 09:43 PM
Rumor has it that Modo will be released in June or July. I guess that means some time in the next 8-10 weeks.

There is an animation package also in the works, but I think that'll come later down the track. Nobody has put even a vague estimate when that will be released.

I think Luxology has done pretty well to get Modo near completion. It's taken them just over 2 years, which is not very long considering the amount of work that would go into it.

Rigley
06-10-2004, 05:44 PM
Any news ?

gfx-dude
06-10-2004, 07:14 PM
I think we lost a few posts during that we were hacked episode but nothing new.

T- minus ? and counting.

gustojunk
06-30-2004, 04:33 PM
still no news?

My theory is that they were ready to go and ship and were planing to ignore the whole micropolygon displacement and work on that for a next release. Then Zbrush came out and these guys had to go back to their desks and work on this stuff for a first release.

Of couse, I have no inside sources nor much idea of what I'm talking about. I'm just postinig something to see if somebody comes and tell us a bit about modo :)

chikega
07-02-2004, 05:56 PM
I believe they may time the release of MODO during Siggraph.

grafikimon
07-02-2004, 09:12 PM
When is siggraph?

At the rate they are going Silo will have had a pretty good lead on them. Hope they tell us soon what's going on.

StephanD
07-03-2004, 11:22 AM
When is siggraph?

At the rate they are going Silo will have had a pretty good lead on them. Hope they tell us soon what's going on.

It's in August...and btw I'm not sure what you mean by silo having a lead,but from what I've seen of Modo,it's better not to talk yet. ;)

gustojunk
07-03-2004, 01:17 PM
It's in August...and btw I'm not sure what you mean by silo having a lead,but from what I've seen of Modo,it's better not to talk yet. ;)
I think a lead meaning, they are out there, their software is VERY good, still in its infancy so there are a lot of features missing but it's the best subD modeler out there for many purpouses. For instance I bought Silo already and I'm using it quite a bit. To go ahead and switch to Modo now it would have to ve MUCH better. But hey, this is all good for us users, competition down to a 'modelling only' engine is one of the best things can happen to us users. So I say Modo, Mirai, Clay, etc, bring them on! :scream:

grafikimon
07-04-2004, 03:43 AM
exactly.
They have many lightwave tools. a completely customizable interface and shortcuts. Then they have a zbrush like deformation tool and animation tools they are working on. They added almost every wings3D tool people requested in the first few months of their existance, so they are quick to implement user requests.

Now Modo has to better them or show great potential for them to be worth purchasing. Layers endomorphs(Vertex Maps) and UV editing are the only thing that Modo seems to have on Silo at the present.

I'll wait till we start seeing demos though to pass judgement.

lwbob
07-05-2004, 08:08 PM
exactly.

Now Modo has to better them or show great potential for them to be worth purchasing. Layers endomorphs(Vertex Maps) and UV editing are the only thing that Modo seems to have on Silo at the present.
So how long have you been using Modo? :)

retinajoy
07-06-2004, 01:04 PM
Their site does not seem to have been updated since March. Not much activity. Are they hard at work getting ready for a major annoucement/release at Siggraph I wonder?

grafikimon
07-06-2004, 04:54 PM
Me?

I'm just speculating. :)

That's about all we can do until they annouce something.

I'm just looking at the range of modelers out there and wondering what they are going to pull off to make modo stand out from the crowd.

StephanD
07-06-2004, 05:47 PM
Well I'm speculating there, ;) but I'm pretty sure Modo will have a solid integration with some of the high-end Rendering/Animation softwares out there.

I hope they don't make something like that though... :curious:

http://nevercenter.com/index.php/Compare/524

lwbob
07-06-2004, 08:02 PM
Me?

I'm just speculating. :)

That's about all we can do until they annouce something.

I'm just looking at the range of modelers out there and wondering what they are going to pull off to make modo stand out from the crowd.

I know, from what I've seen on the few videos out ther as well as the iamges it looks like Modo and the underlying system even might outshine XSI for the ability to configure it. I understand what you are saying but after looking at the past notes from people that saw it last year I'm still excited about it.

Cyberdigitus
07-21-2004, 12:33 AM
Check out the big banner on the Luxology (http://www.luxology.com) site... Looks like they will finally release more information soon!

jlinhart
07-21-2004, 12:46 AM
Thanks for the plug, but please don't hotlink (ie link directly to images).

The best route would have been to just link to the page on the site.

.jason
www.luxology.com (http://www.luxology.com)

Nemoid
07-21-2004, 06:36 PM
hey! some telepatic power got me in Lux website today after a lot of time i didn't visit it!! really funny thing! :eek:

hope to see seme infos about this puppy soon... :buttrock:

jlinhart
07-21-2004, 06:38 PM
hope to see seme infos about this puppy soon... :buttrock: You will.

.jason
www.luxology.com (http://www.luxology.com)

Cyberdigitus
07-22-2004, 08:28 AM
please don't hotlink
Whoops, sorry. Wasn't sure i'd get away with it, but i thought it would bring some color in this thread. I'l remove it, people can check out the site, where they will hopefully find out more soon. :)

Heh, you sure were fast with the reply weren't you?

Now release Modo asap! :bounce:

CIM
07-22-2004, 09:38 AM
Looking forward to new info. :thumbsup:

Nemoid
07-22-2004, 02:05 PM
You will.

.jason
www.luxology.com (http://www.luxology.com)
:drool::drool::drool::drool:

retinajoy
07-22-2004, 02:16 PM
Looking forward to reading about the details/features and for what price. If I like what I read and see, will there:

1. Be a demo version to try out?
2. Discounts for LW users?

Nemoid
07-22-2004, 07:40 PM
Siggraph is near so i think we will not have to wait SO much fortunately

also i notice a cool thing. lux.com link under jason signature. to me it means Lux will go.com soon as they will be ready to ship :) right?

jlinhart
07-22-2004, 07:56 PM
to me it means Lux will go.com soon as they will be ready to ship :) right?
right

.jason
www.luxology.com

Nemoid
07-23-2004, 02:55 PM
hehe :thumbsup:

minus23
07-27-2004, 01:11 AM
Getting Psyched!

fr3drik
07-27-2004, 07:52 AM
This thread is simply just too big. I'm gonna get lazy and ask the obvious; academic discount?

mrmartin100
07-29-2004, 11:30 PM
Things must be getting close. The Modo banner at the Lux site is now a little more active.

Beamtracer
07-29-2004, 11:41 PM
Only days to go before Modo is released at Siggraph. It will be the most anticipated release at the convention. We've waited over 2 years for this moment. Now only days to go!

Rigley
07-30-2004, 07:34 AM
Is it official that modo will be released at Sig. ? I think not, but i hope it will be soon :thumbsup:

WoOoW !! Transparent UI panels rule !!

domo domo modo

retinajoy
07-30-2004, 10:32 AM
If they don't release at Sig, then they will probably announce a date. Apart for showing Modo (will they keep that name?), I wonder if they will give us a glimpse of their future plans. Maybe they might demo a prototype of their new animation package. :)

Nemoid
07-30-2004, 01:35 PM
Mmmmmhhhh!! can't wait to know more!:drool:

some glimpse of the animation package would be really cool as well.

mrmartin100
08-02-2004, 09:04 PM
At the Lux site, they're announcing an exclusive, invitation only demo of some "super secret new technology" at Siggraph. Makes me wish I was going myself.

The way it's worded, though, makes me wonder if modo will bew released at the conference.

zen jehad
08-02-2004, 10:52 PM
I really hope they not only announce it, but mention a release date too. Been dying to hear lots more about Modo.

Beamtracer
08-03-2004, 01:24 AM
This is the first update to the text of Luxology's website since March. They've been really quiet, beavering away at their new app.

Demo of "Super Secret New Technology" = The Nexus renderer.

Hopefully anyone making a video of this rendering demonstration will take a tripod, as that will make the Quicktime download size smaller. (Last year we had shakeycam vision which added to the video's file size).

Maybe SheepFactory should interview Luxology President Brad Peebler again at Siggraph. It's telling that 3D luminaries Stuart Ferguson and Alan Hastings will be there for the big moment.

Nemoid
08-03-2004, 11:44 AM
Wow these are great news for sure! Super Secret New Technology.. :drool:

Only thing I hope we will not have to wait so much to see some Lux product :really I can't wait!!
Oh, and as said : some cool video , pls!! :)

policarpo
08-03-2004, 02:39 PM
MMMMMM......sounds juicy.
:deal:

retinajoy
08-03-2004, 04:00 PM
Hopefully someone will spill the beans for the rest of us after the secret presentation. :)

Ejecta
08-03-2004, 08:28 PM
They have posted the booths that it will be showing in. Looks like they dont have thier own booth. Wierd. I would think if it was going to ship around Sig they would have thier own booth but I could be wrong. :shrug:

mrmartin100
08-03-2004, 09:06 PM
They might not be releasing it at Siggraph. But then no one exected Brad Peebler, et al, to release Lightwave 7 at Siggraph three years ago (or was it 4?). It just appeared at a Newtek party with little prior buzz or promise. But they were handing out boxes of 7 that night.

Hopefully, they'll repeat the same stunt.

Anubis
08-04-2004, 06:00 AM
I'm no genius, and I haven't been following this as much as I should, but I have made a few observations from the Luxology website:

1) They do have a renderer, because there is a shaded object in one of their images; and it is apparently a radiosity render.

2) Their renderer FINALLY supports subpatch wireframe-shaded renders, as you can see in the small image. I actually wrote the turntabler.ls Lscript/Plugin to allow us modelers to export wireframe-shaded turntables; it looks like that will be a thing of tha past.

3) Apparently you can select edgeloops, as shown in one of the other UI images.

I see that the nomenclature of 'band' has been replaced with 'loop', I just hope it can do these things:

1) Artisan-like sculpting
2) PointNormalMove
3) Evaluate a LW subd mesh, and convert (tweak its points to align the surfaces) it to a standard catmull-clark subd; because I hate 're-tweaking' LW subd cages just because they can no longer open up and edit the core to adhere to industry standards.

Nemoid
08-04-2004, 09:43 AM
Yap i noticed the same things !:)

1) Brad stated there will be some artisan -like tool, i dunno how powerfull, but there will be something for sure.
2) i hope so
3) i can't completely understand this point : do Lw subpatches are really not standard? could you elaborate more?
however : I read that Modo has its own subpatch algorithm, but it has the cool possibility to support any algorithm you want even one written by you if u want. Now this is way cool.

p.s. thanx for the cooll turntable plug!! :)

BinarySoup
08-04-2004, 03:05 PM
personally, I care very little for 'super secret special features' at this time, I'd just like to see modo released with the initial features that once caught my fancy, such as the ability to mimic an existing workflow (in my case lightwave) but then being able to tweak it so that it conforms to my particular workflow, add to that ngons, a (I hope) great uv editor, and what I hope will be subd speed atleast somewhere near that of xsi, then I'd be happy. well, unless the price sets it beyond my grasp that is, I passed up on lw8 saving my pennies for modo (not a hard choice thought, since it was very little in 8 that were interesting to me), so I'm really hoping I won't see a price tag that sets modo beyond my reach.