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dmeyer
01-05-2004, 04:36 PM
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-05-2004/0002082963&EDATE=

SAN FRANCISCO, Macworld 2004, Jan. 5 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Discreet, a
division of Autodesk, Inc. (Nasdaq: ADSK), today introduced combustion(R) 3
for Apple(R) Macintosh(R), the latest version of its award-winning visual
effects and 3D compositing desktop software. combustion 3 for the Mac(R) will
deliver industry-leading features benefiting customers who produce Web content
and professional video motion graphics, repurpose video content for the web,
and create effects for independent feature films and HDTV content.
With combustion 3 software, Mac users will be able to experience increased
productivity, flexibility and improved workflow through such enhancements as
customizable brushes, savable presets, timeline markers, and DV capture and
output. Discreet will also continue to work directly with plug-in developers
to assure advanced support for numerous plug-ins including superior
integration with various Adobe(R) After Effects(R) and Photoshop(R) plug-ins.

New Features
-- Editing Operator -- combustion 3 is the first visual effects
application with integrated editing, removing the need for the user to
spend time mastering non-linear editing software (NLE) for simple
editing tasks. Now users will be able to assemble video with
transitions directly in combustion software without having to use an
NLE.
-- Expressions -- The JavaScript-based expressions will allow combustion
artists to easily create complex animations -- eliminating tedious
repetitive work.
-- Flash Output -- Artists will be able to utilize the vector paint and
animation interface tools in combustion 3 software to create and output
Flash animations, extending the range of options they can offer to
their clients.

For a complete list of combustion 3 software's new features go to:
http://www.discreet.com/combustion3 .
"combustion was the first desktop software that put powerful,
resolution-independent, vector paint, animation and compositing solutions in
the hands of graphic designers, animators, visual effects artists and
videographers working on Macs or PCs, and version 3 will push the boundaries
even further for our Macintosh customers," said Paul Lypaczewski, general
manager, Discreet and executive vice president, Autodesk.

Pricing and Availability
combustion 3 is expected to begin shipping for the Apple Macintosh in
early 2004. Suggested price for combustion 3 software is US $995. Upgrade
price from combustion 2 or combustion 2.1 is US $199. For distribution or more
product information, please visit http://www.discreet.com.

Signal2Noise
01-05-2004, 06:12 PM
Cool. All the more reason to buy a dual G5! :thumbsup:

alphatron
01-05-2004, 06:17 PM
I'd wait for some reviews first, as the previous Combustion for Mac was a lot buggier and slower than the PC version.

onlooker
01-05-2004, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by alphatron
I'd wait for some reviews first, as the previous Combustion for Mac was a lot buggier and slower than the PC version.

I thought the 2.1 update fixed that?

beaker
01-05-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by alphatron
I'd wait for some reviews first, as the previous Combustion for Mac was a lot buggier and slower than the PC version.
Thats pretty sad since Combustion on the PC is one of the buggiest software packages I've ever used.

alphatron
01-05-2004, 07:00 PM
Yes, Combustion on the PC has always been buggy, but I've never seen such a sloppy Mac port. Even with the 2.1 update a lot of problems weren't fixed. And it didn't fix the excrutiatingly slow performace. It was almost twice as slow on our Macs than on our equivalent PC boxes.

Combustion's lack of stability (and speed) is one of the reasons we've switched to Digital Fusion. I'm not sure if v.3 is better in this regard.

Signal2Noise
01-05-2004, 07:39 PM
I've got Digital Fusion (DFX+). *sigh* If only DF was available on the Mac. I'm really looking for an excuse to buy a G5. Methinks I'll still be waiting then.:hmm:

chadtheartist
01-05-2004, 07:47 PM
Isn't Shake comparable to Digital Fusion/Combustion? Why not go that route if you will be using it professionally?

Signal2Noise
01-05-2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by chadtheartist
Isn't Shake comparable to Digital Fusion/Combustion? Why not go that route if you will be using it professionally?

Isn't Shake mondo expensive?

chadtheartist
01-05-2004, 08:01 PM
$5,000 for the Mac version. $3,000 if you own Maya on the Mac or Windows.

I don't use these programs though, so I was just asking. I didn't mean to sound patronizing.

DePingus
01-05-2004, 08:41 PM
Digital Fusion costs $5000 as well. You can get DFX+ for $1000 to $2500 (restricted to 8-bit). I think Combustion is more comparable to AfterEffects (Production Bundle) than DF or Shake.

zanian
01-05-2004, 11:22 PM
Combustion has some nice tools but I have never really liked the interface. It has too many menus that can be hidden--meaning you can never work with everything right in front of you.

Everyone seems to gush over the interface but it annoys me. I also have found that it is not very stable.

I prefer a straight out node based package like Shake or Nuke or for more time-based stuff the supposed "toy" compositing app After Effects. I have not used DF.

But yes it can all get pricey.

moovieboy
01-06-2004, 01:45 AM
I just wish Shake had some kind of academic pricing like... everything else does! Can't see why students couldn't get it for, say, the same amount Combustion* was with an education discount (when the professional version was $4,500 US): $700!

Even $1,000 or so wouldn't be too bad. Come on, Apple! It'd be a good opprotunity to bring over people looking at other compositing apps...

Sigh, it's nice to dream :D

-Tom

P.S. Whoo-hoo! 600 posts! :D

parallax
01-06-2004, 04:05 PM
Well, if Shake had any educational pricing scheme, you would still have to shell out muchos $$$ for the G5 wouldn't you?

As far as i'm concerned, there's no such thing for macs.
The student discount probably only acounts for the packaging.:shrug:

moovieboy
01-06-2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by parallax
Well, if Shake had any educational pricing scheme, you would still have to shell out muchos $$$ for the G5 wouldn't you?

As far as i'm concerned, there's no such thing for macs.
The student discount probably only acounts for the packaging.:shrug:


Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say $300 off a G5 for educators/students as nothing... but perhaps you do, so no biggie there. I also don't consider paying $2,699 for a dual 2GHz G5 to be "mucho $$$" but that's a matter of opinion too. :D

However, I do think Apple should have either a tryout/demo version or educational pricing for Shake. Final Cut Pro is helped by the existance of iMovie and Final Cut Express and DVD Studio Pro by iDVD... and now Soundtrack by Garage Band! Shake needs something to bring the curious in without the $5,000 - $10,000 cover charge.

-Tom

dmeyer
01-06-2004, 08:41 PM
last i heard there was an EDU license available for $400.

Try contacting the Shake sales department or your local reseller.

There is also a 30 day unrestricted license available in the Apple Shake Pro Training book.

parallax
01-06-2004, 08:48 PM
That $300 discount doesn't apply for us in Holland, at least not for our school. Add to that the fact that the $2499 model isn't exactly specced out the way i'd want it, you should add at least another $1000, IMO.
$500+ for a proper display, and it isn't that cheap anymore.

moovieboy
01-06-2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by dmeyer
last i heard there was an EDU license available for $400.

Try contacting the Shake sales department or your local reseller.

There is also a 30 day unrestricted license available in the Apple Shake Pro Training book.

If all that's true, that's great news dmeyer! Danke!:thumbsup:

And Parallax, adding $1,500 in options to say the G5 is expensive is a little off target. That's like saying a Honda Civic is mucho $$$ because the one I'd want would have a $10,000 stereo/DVD/PS2 system added to it.

Hell, my perfect G5 workstation needs at least $50,000 in extras to do what I need... but that's not a reflection on the computer, just my needs :D

-Tom

StefanA
01-06-2004, 10:13 PM
In terms of Shake vs Combustion with EDU licenses I would recommend all students to go with Shake. If you look at job postings there are almost none looking for Combustion.

In London for instance there is a HUGE demand right now for Shake compositors. And in Los Angeles it's the same. Shake has become the "standard" film compositing tool these days. And it has also rub off to commercials and the music video market.

just my $0.02

stefan andersson

zanian
01-06-2004, 10:36 PM
There is a demand for experienced compositors period. Just learning how to press buttons in Shake will not lead to a job.

Most bigger houses use their own software anyway and if you are good enough they will train you.


cheers

dmeyer
01-06-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by zanian
There is a demand for experienced compositors period. Just learning how to press buttons in Shake will not lead to a job.

Most bigger houses use their own software anyway and if you are good enough they will train you.


cheers

Exactly. If you know the basics of compositing and whats going on inside the various composite operations, you can be up and running in Shake in very short order.

StefanA
01-06-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by zanian
Most bigger houses use their own software anyway and if you are good enough they will train you.

cheers

True and not true. These days a minority uses their own compositing software. In the old days they would have they own compositing software. Today most of them use Shake or Flame/Inferno. Not all of them, but most of them.

I can't name a single company that I know that will give you training in a compositing software like Shake/Flame/Inferno. This is a myth which mostly applys to 3D animation software (where a lot of inhouse tools are used).
Shake is so widely used today among users that if you don't know it (and it says in the job ad that you need to know it), they will pick the guy who knows it.

This is also because a limited companys are today offering permanent positions. Before they would give you training since it was an investment for them. Now everything is mostly project based, and you are out after the project/feature/commercials are done (or you have a contract that states how many months you will work).

Combustion might be good for the "one man show", but if you are a student I recommend you to learn Shake and get that extra edge in your job application.
Even if I to some extent agree to the "if you are good enough compositor... blablabal..." doesn't mean that you should ignore what the damand in the business are. The truth is that you will have an easier time getting that compositing job if you know Shake.
Right now I don't see any companys that wants Combustion. And to be honest there aren't that many companys even considering Combustion at this point.

These are just my reflections of the business...

best regards

/stefan andersson

zanian
01-06-2004, 11:56 PM
I am directing my post at people who believe if they learn a certain software they will get a job. Shake is a safe bet at the moment but these things change every few years.

They need to learn the fundamentals: problem solving, color theory, film grain, timing, 3D space, tracking, keying, multi-pass composition, etc.. This then can then translate to other software packages.

If you know one node-based compositing package they are not very different from eachother. (and I too am not a fan of Combustion)

Learning to use a hammer will not teach you how to build a house.

Sony, DD, ILM, R&H all use thir own proprietary software.

cheers

parallax
01-07-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by moovieboy
If all that's true, that's great news dmeyer! Danke!:thumbsup:

And Parallax, adding $1,500 in options to say the G5 is expensive is a little off target. That's like saying a Honda Civic is mucho $$$ because the one I'd want would have a $10,000 stereo/DVD/PS2 system added to it.

Hell, my perfect G5 workstation needs at least $50,000 in extras to do what I need... but that's not a reflection on the computer, just my needs :D

-Tom

I don't really agree on that point. Even though the base model isn't that expensive compared to some PC workstations, i'd hardly call the base model a high-end workstation (apart from the dual G5)
You're comparing luxary items with workflow enhancing 'products'
The DVD player in your Civic doesn't really speed up your workflow does it? The 2Gigs of RAM does. So does the extra HDD's, the Dual display and the Wacom.

You really NEED the 1.5/2 gigs of RAM and at least 1 extra harddrive to run your compositor. Believe me, 512mb of RAM does not cut it. Add a monitor, because who can work without one, and your up a few grand.

Its not off target at all, its a waste of money to buy the base model.

pwhitlock
01-07-2004, 03:34 PM
Yeah but remember the basic rule when buying a mac. Don't buy memory or monitors from Apple if money is an issue. They massively overcharge for memory, and you can get decent monitors elsewhere for a lot cheaper as well. Sorry but I don't NEED that 23 inch LCD monitor to do my work. I use 1 19 inch and 1 17inch CRT and both combined they cost less than the smallest Apple lcd.

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