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proton
12-26-2003, 01:05 AM
Happy Holidays from William , Addie (My wife), and Jack (my puppy). I thought I would record a demo of the expression Editor as a gift from the Vaughen Family to the LW community. Recorded at my house on a very inexpensive mic so excuse the audio :)


If the audio passes then I will try and sneak in some more time in the laboratory. :)


Back to the Fam.....hope you enjoy.


Expression Editor example-
ftp://ftp.newtek.com/multimedia/LW8Demos/expressioneditor.avi

Had a ruff time uploading so I didn't get a chance to Dl on my weak Wireless card....can someone confirm that it downloads ok?

Thanx and have a great weekend!

CTRL+X
12-26-2003, 01:16 AM
Thanks Mr Proton

Thanks NT

Happy Holidays to you and everyone here

LW is looking great!!!!

Good Luck with the release and may 2004 bring LW the respect it deserves and NT the prosperity from a job well done.


Downloads great....that editor looks great.....looks like us expression-challenged will be able to learn more with that graphical interface.

Monty
12-26-2003, 01:21 AM
Download went okay. Thanks for the sneak peak Proton. Looking good. So the expression editor is applied thru a generic layout plug-in.

Is it correct that the particles are inaccesible thru this editor?

Happy holidays to you and your family too.

Cheers.

- monty

anieves
12-26-2003, 01:21 AM
downloaded just fine:thumbsup:

paulselhi
12-26-2003, 01:42 AM
downloaded fine but the expression editor now reminds me too much of cinema 4d's xrpesso which is just so confusing that it is one of the main reasons why i prefer LW ( as well as the fact that C4D's SLA shaders are just as arcane)

I mean to get something as basic as a particle to collide with a wall and spawn other particles which drip down the wall takes a node setup that would have einstein gibbering !!!!

Saying that C4D relies heavily on node based xpresso tools to do just about anything of interest with it's thinking particle system and as LW's particle system ( collisions, spawning etc) does not rely on expressions i suppose that the node based system in LW may turn out to be less off putting

anieves
12-26-2003, 02:06 AM
well, expressions have always been kinda intimidating for me but after watching how the new editor works I might just be using them more, I feell like I'll be more comfortable using the editor.

proton
12-26-2003, 02:23 AM
The cool thing in LW8 when it comes to expressions is that you now have many options.....Write expressions...use expression builder ....or use Expression Editor....you choose what works best for u.....

Mattoo
12-26-2003, 02:24 AM
Oh yes, this looks very nice. I haven't commented on any of the other previews because I kind of don't believe they'll work quite as simply as the demos show in production. Plus I can't imagine I'd use them a whole lot. They're cool to have for when you need em but on a daily basis they're not much use.

But this is something I can see myself using much more frequently than the showy physics stuff.

Great stuff, thanks!

HowardM
12-26-2003, 02:25 AM
Thats really cool!
But why do you have to Add Element for one node, then make a red dot, and then click Multiply for another node (but not Add Element like you just did for the 1st element?), and then just click Value but not even Add Element for the last one? Why cant you just drag each Multiply, Value, Element Node into the right node window?
Wouldnt that be so much easier and faster than click click click click click?!?

Its the extra steps in LW that need to be gone!

How many times does the Cam props need to be opened? or the Objs? why must they close and reopen over and over?
Dont you think its a waste of time?

Who is testing this stuff?!
:hmm:

proton
12-26-2003, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by HowardM
How many times does the Cam props need to be opened? or the Objs? why must they close and reopen over and over?
Dont you think its a waste of time?

:hmm:


I dont open/close them when I'm working...but for demos that require me to shrink my workspace to something that I haven't used since Photoshop 1.5 days I try to show the workspace which is almost hidden by the panel......

Sounds like I might be better off just demoing LW at shows and not creating small videos....


signing off till Monday...I'm going to take advantage of my time off as I should have done from day one....

HowardM
12-26-2003, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by proton
I dont open/close them when I'm working...but for demos that require me to shrink my workspace to something that I haven't used since Photoshop 1.5 days I try to show the workspace which is almost hidden by the panel......

Sounds like I might be better off just demoing LW at shows and not creating small videos....


signing off till Monday...I'm going to take advantage of my time off as I should have done from day one....

Proton, you know thats not what Im talking about. Im not an idiot talking about your demo size!

I mean when working in LW, there is no need to have to pop open the camera properties, then have to CLOSE it basically becuase youve opened a Lights Properties, and then of course If I want Motion Properties, I have to get rid of whatever I just had opened, be it objs, camera, lights, plugins, etc....
I am asking for floating panels, multiple panels, that the USER controls.

And please, Im sure youre not happy with my methods, but please take into account what I just said about DRAGGING elements in the editor! It would speed up workflow!

CIM
12-26-2003, 02:58 AM
But why do you have to Add Element for one node, then make a red dot, and then click Multiply for another node (but not Add Element like you just did for the 1st element?), and then just click Value but not even Add Element for the last one? Why cant you just drag each Multiply, Value, Element Node into the right node window?

Because LW's architecture doesn't support that sort of thing.

Kid-Mesh
12-26-2003, 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by Proton Sounds like I might be better off just demoing LW at shows and not creating small videos....


Hey Proton, your efforts are much appreciated man. Especially now ;)

You cant please everybody but most of us are very greatful and look forward to the downloads. Dont go out of your way, but post more when you can. Thanks again for the other ones so far!


Cheers,

-KM

phlio
12-26-2003, 04:14 AM
Thanks for the xmas gift Proton, much appreciated! I haven't delved into expressions much yet but it looks like 8 will make it fun when I do. Take care and happy holidays!
:thumbsup:

edit: obviously no problems with the download and the sound was just fine. Things worked like a charm! I'm with Kid, I love this stuff. Spend time with the family but we'll take as much as you wanna spare of these. :)

Phlio

studiomiguel
12-26-2003, 07:17 AM
Cool! I had heard some stuff about node based editors and wasn't too crazy about it (I've never gotten comfortable with texturing in Maya). But seeing this is changing my attitude!

Thanks my good man!

As far as the different methods you used to add elements, I assumed you were just showing us that we could add them in different ways, NOT that we have to follow the precise pattern of addition.

m

hrgiger
12-26-2003, 07:45 AM
Looking cool Proton. Thanks for putting forth the effort.

I like the red dot idea. From what I can tell in the video, it doesn't look like you have to use it if you don't want but it's nice for having control over where the nodes will appear.

Kvaalen
12-26-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by miguel446
As far as the different methods you used to add elements, I assumed you were just showing us that we could add them in different ways, NOT that we have to follow the precise pattern of addition.


That was also the impression I got. But I agree with Howard, it would be better if you could just click and drag. And it is not true that LightWaves' architecture doesn't support that sort of thing.

As cool as it looks, it still seems to me to be easier to just write them out, but then I have yet to try/see it on a more complexe example.

Emmanuel
12-26-2003, 10:56 AM
I am not accustomed to nodes, could someone please tell me if it is standard to add a multiplier (like the 5 in the example) as an
external node ?
In my understanding, the five would be an element right between
the two other nodes, getting input from the right node and leading to the
node to the left.
I dont understand why it inputs the left node separatly...

Like:

A--->5*---->B

Instead:

A---->B<----5 as the example suggests...

Thanks...

Kvaalen
12-26-2003, 11:04 AM
That is just the way nodes are. You connect the two nodes that you want to multiply and attach them to the input of the multiply node. Then you can attach the output of the multiply node to waht ever you want (if you want).

It's very simple to understand once you try it out.

telamon
12-26-2003, 11:48 AM
Thanks proton for the wishes. I wish you a happy new year and many success for the future.

Thanks proton for sharing that.

The node-based expression editor seems to work fine, I have noticed that there are a lot of functions and I will not need to go to the manual anymore because this seems so intuitive and user-friendly.

The only remark I have is that I would replace the "apply to button" by a node (like the saver node in DFX+). This should increase workflow tremendously.

I give you an example :

Imagine a car with 6 wheels, the central wheels are fixed and the four rear and front wheels are directional. The car follows a trajectory linked to a master null and the wheels rotate depending on the heading of the master null.

You could build an overall expression for the directional wheel rotation (masternull.rotation.h*0.5 for instance) and have four savers as follows

http://www.ifrance.com/telamon01/CGTalk/NodeExpression.jpg

the two last boxes on the right are 'savers'.

This would help to fine tune the value of "0.5" IMO

minus
12-26-2003, 09:00 PM
Great video!
I haven't gotten into expressions much before. But from the example shown here... it doesn't seem as daunting as I made it out to be.... at least not given the new LW8 tools. Definately something I'll play around with. My fear before was mainly based on the absolute rigid way expressions had to be written out.

I wonder if there would be a way to export / import expression nodes. That way... we could have people on the net who discover some complex expressions... save it out to a file..that you could then import. Maybe with a requester box asking you simple things like "What objects bank / velocity / or "Y factor" would you like to use... " and so on.

studiomiguel
12-26-2003, 09:41 PM
Kvaalen,

I like the drag-n-drop feature idea as well... as far as writing expressions goes, I'm certain battle-hardened TD's will completely bypass this feature, this might however temp some users to try their hand at expressions... it just seems less daunting.

Although, there is the whole node-based concept thing, still coming to grips with that myself in Maya.

Minus, expression libraries can import/export now, I don't see why this would be any different... although placement of your nodes would probably get screwed in the process. Truth be told, 90% of my expression usage comes from a library I got from a buddy; I just have to assign what drives the expression and apply!

Bytehawk
12-26-2003, 09:57 PM
kewl stuff !!

will be able to use this a lot !

enjoy yer holiday.

m.d.
12-27-2003, 12:45 AM
Thanks Proton...:)

Auger
12-27-2003, 06:31 PM
Proton,

Many of us really do appreciate your demos. Don't let the outspoken, crabby people get to you. Most Lightwavers are dying to see the videos and new features of LW8 and, like me, are sitting back enjoying the show, even if we don't post replies.

Thanks a lot,

Jon

:buttrock:

gathering
12-27-2003, 07:22 PM
Cool stuff Proton! Keep us updated!

Thanks!

willog
12-27-2003, 10:37 PM
Thanks Proton

DL was good and the video n sound also good.

I appreciate your efforts at this holiday time to keep us up to date with version 8's features. All I can say is not many companies would do what your doing at this time of year.

Thanks again and you go and enjoy the rest of the hols with your family.

Carm3D
12-28-2003, 12:14 AM
It looks to me like it would take longer to set up an expression using the visual editor. Thankfully, it's simply building an expression that is typed out like they are now. I'll probably stick to simply typing out expressions. Once you've done this enough it almost becomes second nature.

I am EAGERLY awaiting LW8..

Proton, I have a question about Expressions..

One feature I was hoping to find in LW8 are expression groups that can be turned on and off without having to turn off expressions one at a time. This way, if I am animating the body, I can turn off the "facial expressions" group. This would be any expressions I have for eye tracking, jaw fan bones, etc.. With only the expressions I need on at any given time, Lightwave's interface will stay as snappy as possible. Manually turning off clusters of expressions one at a time can be cumbersome, however. If any expression can be tied to a group name, and that group turn on or off... Cake city.

Sorry if I sound like I am talking in circles.. I am operating on very little sleep right now.

Thanks!

cgman27
12-28-2003, 07:17 PM
While its nice NT tried to add some node functionality, Amelie is definately the king in this area.

Dodger_
12-28-2003, 07:45 PM
One thing I didn't notice in this video is the ability to go in reverse. To build the node hierarchy out of an existing expression. Is this possible? I didn't see any buttons to do this in the video.

NanoGator
12-28-2003, 11:16 PM
Hey Proton,

Got a couple of comments to make and a wishlist feature here:

1.) I had to go to your previous video thread to get the codec. (On a different computer than from the last time I saw your vids.) Just wanted to suggest that down the road could ya post a link to the codec too? (Although I guess I was the only one bitten by it, hehehe.)

2.) One of my niggling issues of expressions in <7.5 was in not really knowing ALL that there was to do with them. It would appear as though the node-based expression editor reveals quite a few things you can do here. Would you say it fairly thoroughly covers the operations expressions can do? Does it come with examples like Expression Builder does? (Like for doing velocity?)

3.) This is just a wish-list comment. (I think HowardM brought this up in the previous thread.) I have a dual monitor setup and like to keep windows open on the opposite screen. Today with 7.5, If I open the object properties window, then I open the light properties window, the second will replace the first. I'd really like to keep an object, camera, and light properties window open. Is LW8 different in this functionality? Were any other dual-monitor niceties implemented?

thorn3d
12-29-2003, 01:12 AM
No, you aren't the only one bitten... um... what codec is it?

thorn

phlio
12-29-2003, 02:37 AM
You need the TSCC codecs for these. You can get em at:

PC Codec: http://www.techsmith.com/products/studio/codec.asp

Mac Codec: http://www.techsmith.com/download/ensharpendecoder.asp


Cheers! :beer:

Phlio

Remi
12-29-2003, 02:40 AM
Thanks Proton......Happy New Year to you and the Newtek gang:)

faulknermano
12-29-2003, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by CIM
Because LW's architecture doesn't support that sort of thing.

are you sure about that? and how so?

G3D
12-29-2003, 04:21 PM
...please encode your videos with something most users would have. I agree that there may be too many complainers, whiners and naysayers in these forums, but asking your customers to hunt around for codecs does not help. The Mac codec provided on the Techsmith site does not work on my system, a G4 OS 10.2.5, Quicktime Pro 6.5. I'm looking forward to the release of LW8 and would like to see the videos.

:shrug:

proton
12-29-2003, 04:49 PM
The codec works great for all the other Mac guys....have you reboot your system.

G3D
12-29-2003, 05:18 PM
Ok...my post was made at 9:21 your reply was at 9:49. Could you really have confered with "all the the other Mac guys"? :shrug:

Yes, I did reboot. That is not the problem. But all of that is besides the point. You really should not make your customers go though extra effort like that. And I don't want to start trouble; I just want to see the video.


__________________
George Krauter

www.G-3D.com

"A nickel aint worth a dime anymore."-Yogi Berra

proton
12-29-2003, 05:32 PM
Over the last 3-5 days Mac users have downloaded 5 videos and viewd them without a problem. I don't call having to download a codec jumping thru hoops. No matter what codec I choose someone will end up downloading a codec.

This format works on both Mac and PC....we tested it and many Mac/PC users have viewed the videos with no problem...Sounds like you should contact tech support for either your system or your player and see what the problem may be.

DigitalDeuce
12-29-2003, 05:39 PM
All of our Mac testers haven't had any problem that they couldn't solve -- that is what Proton is referencing.

Those that did have an issue was solved by rebooting the mac.

LittleFenris
12-29-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by G3D
The Mac codec provided on the Techsmith site does not work on my system, a G4 OS 10.2.5, Quicktime Pro 6.5. :shrug:

I am on that exact same setup (G4, etc..) and the codec works perfectly.

proton, this is the only link that works for me to download the codec for the MAC: http://wcarchive.cdrom.com/pub/bws/bws_48/ensharpen_macosx.dmg All the others just download "transfer.asp". I know this isn't your fault (its Techsmiths), just thought you should know. :thumbsup:

proton
12-29-2003, 06:42 PM
Thanx for the heads up....I will use that link from now on!

Scottorama
12-29-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by G3D
...please encode your videos with something most users would have. I agree that there may be too many complainers, whiners and naysayers in these forums, but asking your customers to hunt around for codecs does not help. The Mac codec provided on the Techsmith site does not work on my system, a G4 OS 10.2.5, Quicktime Pro 6.5. I'm looking forward to the release of LW8 and would like to see the videos.

:shrug:

I have tried it on 10.2.8 single and dual processor machines, 10.3.1 & 10.3.2 single and dual processor machines, QT 6.1 - QT 6.5 Mac and Windows, they all work just fine. Just had to reboot after installing the codecs. And it worked best to download the clips to the hard drive ... while these codecs aren't 'standard' QT codecs, they produce the best file sizes for the quality with the least amount of software changes for people's systems - both Mac AND Windows. The other codecs degrade the quality of the video too much, or double the size of the file. So they are not practical. This way, it also makes it so Proton can use a tool to get the information out ASAP.

Sorry to hear you are having problems, the videos are great! Maybe there is a 10.2.5 issue, there are new video drivers for many cards in the 10.2.6/7/8 patches - 10.2.5 is quite old now. Not to mention a bunch of stability and a a few security patches. Try those, maybe they will get you going. Probably would fix some other things as well.

Good luck!

LittleFenris
12-29-2003, 07:07 PM
no problem at all proton. :thumbsup:

OT question here... How much will LW[8] upgrade with a CD and paper manual be? I hope the same $400 it has been in the past. Thanks! If not I guess I'll just have to burn it on a CD myself, and print out the manual at work on our laser printer. :)

G3D
12-29-2003, 07:21 PM
"All the others just download "transfer.asp"."

That is exactly what happened on my end. And thank you, Tornado.
:thumbsup:
At this point I've only seen the expression editor video and it looks impressive.
Does this mean purchasing Amelie or Relativity would be redundant?
I like the retro look; its much easier on the eyes. Hopefully some of the colors are customizeable, especially selected polygons in Modeler and selected Objects in Layout.

Personally,I would rather wait another 6 months for a version of LW 8 that is stable. I haven't forgotten the Mac LW v7.0 that could not correctly render UV bump maps...self sufficient Mac beta testers notwithstanding.:shrug:

CIM
12-29-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by faulknermano
are you sure about that? and how so?

Well, I can't recall seeing it anywhere in the LScript or SDK docs., and LW doesn't use drag 'n' drop anywhere that I recall.

Kvaalen
12-29-2003, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by CIM
Well, I can't recall seeing it anywhere in the LScript or SDK docs., and LW doesn't use drag 'n' drop anywhere that I recall.

The scene editor uses drag and drop. Also while editing the menu or the keyboard shortcuts you can drag and drop. These two are right of the top of my head. If I think a while I could probably come up with others.

BTW, I love your new avatar! :)

telamon
12-29-2003, 10:23 PM
The Graph Editor also uses drag and drop from the list of channels to the bin.

There are many D&D tools in LW... This means that the architecture can handle it :D

CIM
12-30-2003, 12:35 AM
I wasn't referring to simple list drag 'n drop. I guess most LW users don't really know what drag 'n drop is. :shrug:

telamon
12-30-2003, 12:38 AM
lol

LittleFenris
12-30-2003, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by CIM
I wasn't referring to simple list drag 'n drop. I guess most LW users don't really know what drag 'n drop is. :shrug:

Wanna give an example of what DnD you mean then? Like maybe a different type of app that has what you mean. (something besides Maya or MAX if they have it cause I have only seen them a couple times).

cgman27
12-30-2003, 03:43 AM
Drag and drop means that one container can be selected and dragged to another container. Containers include all gui elements; windows, buttons, lists, combobox, etc etc...

Basically those GUI elements then have to be told what to do with incomming events, i.e. drag and drop, and how to handle them. LW seems to only have the list control programmed for such a purpose.

Now, you could use the SDK to make a new opengl window and program a whole new GUI to do some kool stuff like drag and drop, but that is a lot of work.

The actual panel support via the SDK for things like a new drag and drop feature don't exist, and given its event-hating coding style, won't be in the future. As it stands you can not even add new controls to a panel runtime, you actually have to destroy the old panel, and make a new panel with the added buttons. Very crude.