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View Full Version : ATI 9800 PRO vs. Nvidia 5900???


Kman3d
12-21-2003, 12:59 AM
Helloaaa guy's,

I'm new here and I was wondering if you can help me out…
I work Mainly on MAYA 5 and a bit on Max 6.
I also work with video editing and composing (Vegas, DF, CS)
and of course with Photoshop (8).
I'm buying a new PC, and I have a limited budget so I cant afford to buy an expansive Proffecional DCC card (i.e. quadro)...

So I was wondering which card to buy: the Geforce FX 5900 (128MB) VIVO ver. or the ATI 9800 PRO (128MB).

I base my selection on couple of things:
Speed (Mainly in OPENGL env.), Stability,Drivers, features and cost.

I tend to go with GeforceFX salution as it works good with Maya's OpenGL (from what I've heard) plus the VIVO option allows to capture Video.
on the other hand I know they have big problems with DirectX (9 mainly),
(not to good cuz I also use a bit of MAX and other DX apps... pluse play games :) )

ATI offers a very solid DirectX 9 support, but I have no Idea about it's OpenGL performance (specifically in MAYA...) or stability of Drivers and the card it's self!
And that's why the big dilemma...(I also heard they have problems with Drivers, is it true?)

I saw this review of DCC professional Video cards benchmarking in Maya 5 (http://darkcrow.co.kr/Review/Review_Content.asp?board_idx=174&contentpage=1).
They also added a Radeon 9800XT pro and Geforce FX 5950 Ultra... and the Geforce performed better! - specially in Hardware rendering where Ati cards took 47 min to render against a 17 min that took to FX to render the same scene...
but the Ati's quality I think was a bit better...
Unfortunately that review is in Korean, So all I saw was result's without explanations or comments...

I also should mention that the Geforce solution is cheaper then ATI's...

That's it! Now I would like to hear what you think is better, maybe some personal experience with ATI's or Nvidia's cards (in Maya MAX or in any thing else :) )...

Thanks!

allawy
12-21-2003, 03:27 AM
Well, Take it from someone who actually own Radeon 9800 pro, get the FX, Radeon are totally non-stable with 3D application, and ATI is not doing anything about all the bug reports we submit, yes, Radeons are good with games, actually, they are wonderful with games, I finished Max II with it @1600x1200 full AA, and it was cool, hi-frame rate and all, but if I just dare to open XSI, I can't select, I can't use FX tree, I can't, I can't I can't!!!

On the other hand, FX have no problem with 3D applications, and you still can enjoy your games, so what if it 10FPS less than a radeon, or the smoke in radeon is cooler or so, you can use everything fast and stable.

My next Vcard, which as I see I will have to buy soon will be FX one, why? well I want to use XSI, and Radeons are not good for it (nor for Maya), and I don't want to pay 800 USD for FireGL (actually over 1000 USD where I live).

One last thing, I would wait, 2-3 months from now, new serious are going to be out, both technologies, and I bet Nvidia has learned the lesson now, so I am.

Sieb
12-21-2003, 04:57 AM
I haven't run into any problems yet in Maya or Max on my 9800. Game wise, a 9800 wins hands down, app wise, if I was going to be serious, I would look into the Quadro line which you can get for the same price (via PNY) as a 5900 with full on app support (yes, it will play your games fine). I try to steer away from the FX series since Nvidia is getting annoying with their dismal re-release of a higher clock speed card that still fails to beat the 9800. Yes, there is SoftQuadro, but its still technically not the same as a real one. If you search the forum, you will see we have gone over these debates a few times now.

yinako
12-21-2003, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by allawy
Well, Take it from someone who actually own Radeon 9800 pro, get the FX, Radeon are totally non-stable with 3D application, and ATI is not doing anything about all the bug reports we submit, yes, Radeons are good with games, actually, they are wonderful with games, I finished Max II with it @1600x1200 full AA, and it was cool, hi-frame rate and all, but if I just dare to open XSI, I can't select, I can't use FX tree, I can't, I can't I can't!!!

On the other hand, FX have no problem with 3D applications, and you still can enjoy your games, so what if it 10FPS less than a radeon, or the smoke in radeon is cooler or so, you can use everything fast and stable.

My next Vcard, which as I see I will have to buy soon will be FX one, why? well I want to use XSI, and Radeons are not good for it (nor for Maya), and I don't want to pay 800 USD for FireGL (actually over 1000 USD where I live).

One last thing, I would wait, 2-3 months from now, new serious are going to be out, both technologies, and I bet Nvidia has learned the lesson now, so I am.

Did u try softGL you card to a fireGL2?

Kman3d
12-21-2003, 08:50 AM
O.K thanks for the replays...
sieb: as I said I cant afford a quadro (well only the quadro 750 XGL).
I too heard a lot about ATI's hardware troubles in 3D apps.
Also X-bit did a Review a while ago with the FX and the ATI cards, any way in the final conclusion he added that ATI is better for games and FX for Pro 3D software. (a great review including both the 9800 PRO and the FX 5900 but if only he added Max and Maya Benchmarks...)

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/graphics-cards-2003.html
___________________________________________________
last page:

This way, we can conclude that graphics adapters based on NVIDIA GPUs are more suitable for:

Professional gamers caring more about high fps rates rather than image quality;
Those who are not interested in the next generation games;
NVIDIA products fans :)
Those who work with professional 3D applications.

The graphics solutions based on VPUs from ATI Technologies are more suitable for:

Those who want to play with the highest image quality;
Those who are following the progress in the computer games industry;
Those who value the quietness.
___________________________________________________

allawy: when are the new models to arrive? the problem is that I have to buy this PC till the end of this year, and as I expect they wont be out till then. plus they will cost a fortune where I live, and a month till they actually get here...
the good thing about the new models release is the price drop on the other models... (BUT I CANT WAIT :( )
Also should I buy the 256MB (and sacrifice an 19" Flatron Monitor) or the 128MB. (as I heard for games it's not a big deal for now, but in 3D (large textures) would it make a difference ?)
___________________________________________________

This is what I cameup with by the way...:
CPU : Intel Pentium IV 3.0C GHz HT 512K 800MHz Socket 478 CPU BOX [ ¤ 1675.07 ] x 1
Motherboards for Intel : Asus P4P800 Deluxe Intel 865PE Motherboard (HT,FSB800,S-ATA,RAID,1394,5.1 Sound,3Com G-LAN,USB 2) [ ¤ 821.1 ] x 1
Memory : DDR-RAM 512MB 3200 Hynix Original Memory [ ¤ 514.07 ] x 2
Hard Discs : Western Digital 80GB 7200 rpm 8MB Buffer ATA100 HDD [ ¤ 495.17 ] x 1
Video Cards : Albatron Geforce FX 5900EPV 128MB DDR Retail Video Card [ ¤ 1659.32 ] x 1
Floppy : Teac / Alps / Mitsumi 1.44MB 3,5" Floppy Drive [ ¤ 51.98 ] x 1
CD-ROM / DVD-ROM : CD-ROM Asus x 52 [ ¤ 118.15 ] x 1
Monitors : 19" LG Flatron F900B NEW Flatron Monitor + USB Hub [ ¤ 1627.18 ] x 1
Keyboards : Genius KB-10X PS2 Eng/Heb/Russian Keyboard + Pad [ ¤ 38.07 ] x 1
Mouse : Microsoft Optical Trekker Mouse OEM PS2 | USB [ ¤ 64.85 ] x 1
Cases : Super Midi Tower Case USB Front ATX 300 Watt [ ¤ 205.21 ] x 1
Service : Computer Assembly [ ¤ 152.28 ] x 1


Subtotal : ¤ 7936.51
Discount : ¤ -158.73
Delivery Mode : NO DELIVERY Delivery : ¤ 0.00
Total Price ¤ 7777.77 (thats 1772.7376339183952587189423296102 $ exactly! :) )
Payment Mode : CASH
Each Payment ¤ Payments: 1 Payments Fee : ¤ 0

*1$ = 4.3870 nis (new isrealy sheqel)
___________________________________________________

again thanks.

CgFX
12-22-2003, 04:53 PM
"Those who are following the progress in the computer games industry"

OMG, what a bunch of religeous crap. Ignore that article in its entirety. The fact that they even use the term VPU shows where their bias is.

The NV3x GPU is vastly more advanced than the R3x0 GPU family. That does not always translate to pure FPS and there are some key issues wth the NV3x GPU family that worked out both good and bad for NV but to suggest that ATI is somehow leading the industry shows a complete lack of understanding on what is going on in GPU hardware and with game developers.

3Dfx_Sage
12-22-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by CgFX
"Those who are following the progress in the computer games industry"

OMG, what a bunch of religeous crap. Ignore that article in its entirety. The fact that they even use the term VPU shows where their bias is.

The NV3x GPU is vastly more advanced than the R3x0 GPU family. That does not always translate to pure FPS and there are some key issues wth the NV3x GPU family that worked out both good and bad for NV but to suggest that ATI is somehow leading the industry shows a complete lack of understanding on what is going on in GPU hardware and with game developers. as is the lack of understanding here.... it is true that the NV3x is greatly superior in design, however the implementation does not hold true to the design.

As for VPU vs GPU, both meaningless buzzwords- ATi calls theirs VPU's, nVidia calls theirs GPU's, but they both do the same thing :rolleyes:

For Pro work, get the nVidia- ATi's work just fine.... sometimes. I would strongly reccomend getting a cheaper quadro over a nicer GeForce. The problem is that nVidia is doing lots of things in their drivers that don't render the scene mathematically equivalent to what the app calls for in an effort to get the most speed they can out of the NV3x. For games, this means that effects can become broken, you get blurrier textures, etc. But, for Pro work, it could mean inexcusable graphical errors. So, get the Quadro, for the sole reason of accuracy and app support. You'll be glad you did.

And please, please, please give me recent statements from top game developers in which they show a preference for the FX. I personally know a fair number who often make statements quite to the contrary. Please, what game devs do you know?

CgFX
12-22-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
it is true that the NV3x is greatly superior in design
Here here.

3Dfx_Sage
12-22-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
however the implementation does not hold true to the design.
not that it will matter too much longer anyhow, PS/VS 3.0 are almost upon us and a chance for those designs to make it into better implementations.

nVidia does have a very strong edge over ATi because of some of the choices that they made with their base design that makes it very scalable (remnants of 3dfx :D ) but their corporate culture is very much "shoot first, sort the bodies later" which leads to, rather than getting their mistakes fixed, everyone covering up their mistakes. Jensun is very hotheaded and noone has the balls to tell him what's going on with the company. I think that he is actually under the impression that nVidia is still uncontested. The only way that nVidia can turn around is to either boot him or for someone to stand up and risk their neck to tell him how it is... and he has to listen.

CgFX
12-22-2003, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
Jensun is very hotheaded and noone has the balls to tell him what's going on with the company. I think that he is actually under the impression that nVidia is still uncontested.
You are speaking out of place.

3Dfx_Sage
12-22-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by CgFX
You are speaking out of place. bwahahahaha, then please explin to me what is my place? And, please, what is your place?

CgFX
12-22-2003, 07:28 PM
It is not your place (nor mine) to speak about the work relationships within NVIDIA. Let's stick to what we know or even remotely have an idea on.

3Dfx_Sage
12-22-2003, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by CgFX
It is not your place (nor mine) to speak about the work relationships within NVIDIA. Let's stick to what we know or even remotely have an idea on. But, it would be appropriate for someone who worked for nVidia to speak about the work relationships within nVidia, wouldn't it? Would it not then be appropriate for me to repeat that information? You see, I do know, so I will stick to it. You admittedly don't, so you, by your own rules, have no buisiness contradicting me.

CgFX
12-22-2003, 08:38 PM
Your comments are admittedly based on hearsay. Hearsay from one of 2,000 employees no less. Nobody that would have a line to Jen-Hsun would have such a conversation with you. Such comments just aren't appropriate or necessary, IMHO.

3Dfx_Sage
12-22-2003, 09:00 PM
no, this is the consensus of many employees that work in many different parts on nVidia. You make far too many asumptions about who I do and don't know. And you still have yet to offer anything that disputess what I have said. You have no information and are making blind assumptions, whereas I have real information from numerous discussions with numerous nVidia employees. Obviously, I am not going to give you names because even the management whom I know have bosses.

nVidia's corporate culture is that noone has to take responcibility for their mistakes. this works really well when you're just a small team fighting to make a big name for yourselves, it keeps a feeling of unity by not singling anyone out. However, nVidia has grown too fast for their culture to adapt and it is now causing them problems. Things need to change inside nVidia. I will admit that I don't know how things have been the past coupple of months, but (and here is where I begin speculating... speculation based on real data and not on personal bias, unlike some people do...) my guess is that NV40 will be a contender, but will ultimately be deemed another good try. But, nVidia is not counting on NV40, they can survive another loss because their master project is NV50 (this is something I do know, not speculation). I think, and hope, that NV40 will force a wakeup call in time for nVidia to change gears and let NV50 be everything that it is capable of. They have the talent and the resources.

and now I'm goin g to have christmas with my two best friends.

siftingsand
12-23-2003, 05:05 AM
I cant comment on the 5900 but I have an ati 9800 pro. If you use the regular catalyst drivers there are some problems to note. If you use maya you will notice things like paint effects crawls or doesnt work at all...when modeling nurbs, inserting isoparms, the screen goes all red when moving the lines on an object. I was considering selling my ati 9800 because of these problems.. but I have found a fix. The Softfiregl, (find out more on guru3d.com/forum/ under rivatuner. ) When using the Patched drivers ( faking it into a pro card, driver hack) the problems with Paint effects are gone! fixed.. and the problem with modeling is also fixed. So far i would tell anyone who has a 9800 card to try this out. see for yourself how it works.. Sure its not as good owning a pro level card but it works. there is a site online that has a patched set of drivers. ATI RADEON 9800@FireGL X2


http://www.iron.ru/files/FreeFireGL_6343.exe

just install rivatuner first then give these a try.

Novakog
12-23-2003, 05:48 AM
To oppose CgFX (once again...), nVidia's simply cannot compete wiht ATIs in DX9 games. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. I have never, ever seen any benchmarks that stated otherwise, except perhaps the ones given by nVidia themself (which is sure to be biased). And to say "You're speaking out of place" is ridiculous. It sounds like you think you're a king and the world revolves around you and he's your servant. We have no idea what he knows, although in fact I've heard the same thing that he has from some nVidia employees I know. Also, 3dfx, what you said about the NV40 is pretty good speculation. I suspect it will be more powerful than a 9800 XT in DX9 games (and certainly better in Maya, which is probably why I'll buy it), but not a huge leap for nVidia. The NV50 will be their gem.

But more to the thread, I would go with the FX. Radeons simply cannot perform in Maya (dunno about Max, with the DX GUI), they are filled with bugs and often slow to a single frame every few seconds.

3Dfx_Sage
12-23-2003, 05:53 AM
just to show how much making assumptions about people online can have you way off...
We have no idea what he knows
would be more correct if stated this way:

We have no idea what she knows well... most days, at least... :hmm:

Novakog
12-23-2003, 06:25 AM
Excellent point. Sorry about that, I just say he when I don't know (which I think is technically correct). Whatever, my bad. :shrug:

Kman3d
12-23-2003, 10:40 AM
O.K thanks again for help...
I've decided to go with the FX... and due to a raise in my budget I can afford the more expansive FX cards...
And here is the funny thing:

A Leadtek cards (FX5900 Ultra and the 5950 Ultra - both VIVO) costs less then all of the other company's lower model cards...
For instance – Asus / Gainward / MSI - Geforce FX 5900 ULTRA (some VIVO some not) cost around 740$ where I live... (I know that that's F**** expansive... :) )
But the leadtek 5950 Ultra 256MB VIVO costs only 600$...
(Same thing about gigabyte - but I don't like it's heatsink)!
Very strange! it makes me wondering if there's something wrong with Leadtek cards... so I checked and it's all good (same memory speeds, core speeds...)
So, My question is to those that have or had experience with Leadtek FX 5900 Ultra or 5950 Ultra cards, also if you know something I doont know about those cards,
please share...

(B.T.W I prefer the leadtek's 5950 Ultra over the 5900 Ultra because it doesn't have an enormous heatsink covering the whole card… (and the price is only 50$ higher...)
Again Thanks…

P.S – Why is it takes like 24 hours till my msg get posted?

3Dfx_Sage
12-24-2003, 05:34 PM
for that much money you could order yourself a Quadro 980XGL... actually it would save you $100.

matty429
12-24-2003, 06:58 PM
You are quite Close in price to This (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=322981)

allawy
12-25-2003, 03:42 PM
@psy_parasite

How do you install this thing? steps are in rusian if I'm not wrong, and did you try the other driver they provide?

dvornik
12-25-2003, 04:54 PM
[edit] never mind...

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