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toddy333
12-18-2003, 07:58 AM
I am very interested in getting a new computer system but I am low on money. I will be using it primarily for 3d animation/rendering. I have been researching for several days and wanted to share my findings with my fellow comrades. I have found the dual AMD Opteron system to be the best choice for the budget shopper! (ONLY $446.00 for a cpu/MB combo!!!) Please read on!

Why Opteron you may ask?

The biggest and most important reason is scalability. Everyone knows that 64 bit processing is the next technology, even though there isn't a Windows OS to handle it yet. Also it is a must that you have a dual cpu setup for rendering.

So I will build the computer myself. Because I am low on money, I will start with only 1 cpu and upgrade when I get more cash (This is how us broke people do it).

Why not anything else?

Dual Xeon is nice but still expensive without the 64 bit processing possibility. It definitely will out beat the single Opteron 240 (1.4Ghz) but once you have extra money you can buy 2 Opteron 248 (2.2ghz) and by the time you do that a new OS will be out and then you will kick the crap out of the Xeons. And your system will not be outdated. Dual Athlon MPs are the next best choice and not as expensive as the Dual Xeon if you want something fast right now to render. But I feel in the long run you will also be left behind in the dust (no AGP 8x support-except at alienware.com).

On pricewatch I found a motherboard/ 1 cpu combo costs $446.00: (Do a search in www.pricewatch.com for "msi opteron" in motherboard combos) This setup only contains a Opteron 240 (1.4ghz) and a MB (MSI K8T Master2-FAR http://www.msicomputer.com/product/detail_spec/product_detail.asp?model=K8T_Master2-FAR). However, the MB can handle the Athlon 64 FX51 (2.20GHz) and 2 Opteron 248 (2.2ghz) (for rendering!!!). You also get the 8x AGP support (unlike the dual Athlon MPs).

Other Prices I found "for budget shoppers that can't afford the newest, but need the best for their money and scalability for when you have money to upgrade":

The Opteron Choice:
MSI K8T Master2-FAR Motherboard $214
Chip $979 - Opteron 248 2.2
Chip $766 - Opteron 246 2.0
Chip $441 - Opteron 244 1.8
Chip $307 - Opteron 242 1.6
Chip $191 - Opteron 240 1.4ghz
TYAN Motherboard $450 (S2885) that runs the dual Opteron (the too expensive choice).

The Xeon Choice:
The Best MB for the money to run dual Xeons Iwill DPL533 $183.00
$471 - Xeon 3.0GHz 533FSB
$299 - Xeon 2.8GHz 533FSB
$265 - Xeon 2.66GHz 533FSB
$202 - Xeon 2.4GHz 533FSB
-mb/cpu combo w/ fan- Xeon single 2.6=$474 2.8=$524

The Athlon MP Choice:
$200 - Athlon MP 2800
$147 - Athlon MP 2600
$123 - Athlon MP 2400
$117 - Athlon MP 2200
MB between $174 - $189
-mb/cpu combo w/ fan- athlon mp single 2600 amd 760 mpx chipset up to 4gb 266mhz ddr only ?4x pro=$345 2800=$394

The Pentium P4 (single) Choice:
The best P4 system I found contains Abit IC7 875P MB 2.6GHz 800Mhz 8x AGP (no OS) with 256mb ram $356.
-mb/cpu combo w/ fan- p4 2.6 800mhz=$212 (2.8 w/o HT $216)

So to summarize,

(1)System, (2)Price, (3)Current Speed, (4)Scalable, (5)Speed Compared to the Rest (in a few months)

(1)Single Opteron 240 8xAGP, = (2)~$600, (3)moderate, (4)Super!, (5)Super!
Single Xeon 2.4ghz 533 8xAGP, = ~$650, Faster, great, Avg
Single Athlon Mp 2600 4xAGP, = ~$550, Fast, good, Avg
P4 2.6ghz 800 8xAGP + other, = ~$550, Fastest, litttle, Below AVG.

(Price includes motherboard, cpu and + $200 for good quality 1gig of ram.)

All prices found on www.pricewatch.com beat prices found on compared prices sites like www.majorgeek.com.

I am sure that there will be dual Zeons w/ 64 bit processing power in the future. Because In the Past and even now dual Athlons cost less than dual Xeons with little performance differences I believe this will be the same case again with dual Opterons costing less than dual Zeons w/ 64 bit processing power.

But what will you do with the Opteron 240 once you replace it with the 2 Opteron 248s? The answer is Ebay. Most people will say I am a big advocate of AMD but in the past I only have used Pentium. My findings on the net have converted me. I have to admit that the 64 bit technology is a mystery. I wonder how the 64 bit processing will affect rendering (ie. in 3dsmax) once the OS is out and 3dsmax becomes 64 bit compliant! I admit I am biased somewhat to the AMD Opteron because I have high hopes for 64 bit processing power. I will greatly appreciate responses, advice and anyone to challenge my views so hopefully I will learn from it. I hope I have helped someone out there.

toddy333
12-18-2003, 08:43 AM
Computer hardware pricing follow a parabolic curve (http://www.chartcenter.com/parabolic_curve.html). The bottom of the curve includes old cpu's like the older P4's. Their price is low and not very changing. As the curve goes from left to right (bottom to top) it slowly picks up height but once it gets to a curtain point it goes very high. On the top of the parabolic curve sit the P4 extreme edition and the Athlon64 FX 51 CPUs. There prices are to high for the average Joe to reach. When I was researching the cpu prices from the previous thread I was concentrating on the prices that were just starting to go up (or rather prices that just dropped). For example: The prices of Athlon MP chips are as follow:

$200 - Athlon MP 2800
$147 - Athlon MP 2600
$123 - Athlon MP 2400
$117 - Athlon MP 2200

I would spend $24 extra to get the 2600 instead of the 2400. But I would not spend $53 extra to get the 2800 instead of the 2600. But this is much more exaggerated in the P4 extreme edition and the Athlon64 FX 51 CPUs. I am sure everyone probably knows this. I guess I just like rambling today:)

oxyg3n
12-18-2003, 08:51 AM
Hello,

I am also building my own computer at the moment and have everything but the cpu/mb and ram.

I know that I want dual opterons and I have looked at the tyan mb that you mentioned. It is the thunder k8w. Tyan also makes another version of this board, the tiger k8w and it is only about 250$ on pricewatch.

The only difference that I can see between them is that the thunder lets you use up to 16 gigs of ram, has pci-x and requires a different type of power supply, ssb < I think that is what it is called>

The tiger lets you use 8 gigs of ram, only had pci and is compatable with atx power supplies. This is the board that I am thinking I will get.

I want to get the opteron 246, but since the 248 just came out I think that it will push the price down closer to 400$ shortly after xmas. At least this is what I am hoping.

There is also a new article on anandtech.anandtech xeon vs opteron (http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1935)

singularity2006
12-18-2003, 12:29 PM
Question, when u mean start w/ 1 CPU and upgrade, do you mean to 2 CPU's, or just a faster CPU? I was somehow under the impression that a dual board requires two CPU's off the boot. Anyhow, still too rich for my blood. I'll be happy just to get a Barton 3000.

MattClary
12-18-2003, 01:01 PM
No, a dual board can boot with 1 cpu.

In my opinion, it's a bad idea to get a dual board with 1 cpu. I've done it in the past, and you usually wind up never buying that second cpu. If you want a dual system, get one you can afford, if you can't afford it, you're better off pumping the extra cash you would spend on a dual board into a single cpu setup.

toddy333
12-18-2003, 03:49 PM
oxyg3n
You are correct, there are two Tyan Thunder K8W Boards that support Opteron processors. The Thunder K8W (S2885) and the Tiger K8WS (S2875S). The S2885 supports 2 Opterons but the S2875S supports only 1. This is the reason why the 2nd board is so much cheaper! Make sure you really research the boards before you buy. The Tyan Opteron MBs are here (http://www.tyan.com/products/html/opteron.html). The pricewatch.com descriptions are not totally complete, be careful.

singularity2006
Yes, absolutely you can run only a single processor with a dual processor compatible MB that was my whole point of the thread. This is still expensive but look at the alternatives at www.boxxtech.com or www.alienware.com (too too expensive). The P4 is another good choice for you than! I will be looking up some info about the Barton 3000 now.

MattClary
I will definitely be buying the second CPU. What works for some may not work for all.

Thanks for your replies!

oxyg3n
12-18-2003, 04:54 PM
@toddy333

There is also a tyan tiger k8w that supports dual processors. Youll notice that the single cpu one has a place on it ready for the second cpu.

You can find it on this page:

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/tigerk8w.html

Its model number is: S2875ANRF


And do a search on price watch for S2875ANRF and it will show up. Only a few places carry it.

You can buy it at monarchcomputer: Tyan tiger k8w dual cpu (http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=110259). I am planning on getting this one.

3Dfx_Sage
12-18-2003, 05:46 PM
a) 64-bit computing is not going to magically make things much faster, just allow you to do a whole lot more things you can do. There is, however, a giant indirect speed advantage- you can use more than 4GB of memory! With memory getting cheaper and cheaper you will likely soon find yourself limited because you can only use 4GB if you g with AthalonXP/MP or a P4.

b) AGP 8x makes little to no difference, PCI Express (aka 3GIO), however, likely will

c) my personal experience with MSI has been nothing but the absolute worst. I had a P4 mobo that wouldn't work quite right with WinXP and it took me about a year to find that out from them... I've had other very bad experiences with other MSI mobo's, never a good one.

toddy333
12-18-2003, 06:30 PM
I guess I should be the one to look more carefully :) I did not see that one. Your choice, Tiger K8W (S2875), only supports 8GB of Registered DDR no ECC. $209.00

However, the Thunder K8W (S2885) $450.00 supports 16GB of Registered DDR with ECC. Also the S2885 has a AGP 8X Pro110W slot which the S2875 does not. Look at the specs sheets for the two MBs.

The MSI K8T Master2-FAR MB $222.00 has the AGP 8X Pro110W slot with 8GB registered DDR with ECC. But 3Dfx_Sage is telling us to not go with the MSI board. I personally would go with the MSI because it has more features than the K8W S2875. I would take my chances for the better 8X slot and better memory possibilities. Hopefully MSI has their act together by now. If I had the money, I would more carefully listen to people’s opinion and buy the best board based on people's experiences. But thanks for the advise anyway. It is greatly appreciated.


3Dfx_Sage
When you said
"b) AGP 8x makes little to no difference, PCI Express (aka 3GIO), however, likely will"
I don't know too much about PCI Express. Is this a graphics card port? And if it is, is this better than 8x AGP and 64-bit PCI-X buses? Also is PCI Express out yet?

It sounds like you are saying that this new 64 bit processing is only to get more sticks of RAM into the motherboard? Is this true? Please enlighten me.

kex
12-18-2003, 06:42 PM
i cant see the point if your using 3dsmax,

as thiers not a port of it for linux,

you can run 32bit appz on 64bit processors but i would rather run a 64bit os with 64bit apps on a 64bit processor, i can see your investment blowing away in the wind.


as intel are making faster chips and amd are migrating to 64bit and also getting quicker. your mobo will prob not take chips that will actually be worth the large price for perforance against a: p4 , xeon mp, or xp.

i would wait for the 64bit market to become stabler as its unclear what might happen next or atleast wait for windows 64bit if your using max

toddy333
12-18-2003, 06:57 PM
kex

I also heard there is a 64 bit OS from linux. I read on the net that there will be a 64bit Windows Q1 of next year. And I am sure that Max will have a 64 bit version of the software as well to be competitive. This is just the way business works.

I do not think my investment will blow away in the wind. Based on the Past (dual Xeons vs. dual Athlon MPs were close in performance and Athlons costing less) I feel that AMD will prove again to be competitive with Intel's 64 bit competition. The worst case scenario is Intel coming out with some awesome technology sending AMD to bankruptcy. But this will never happen because Intel will charge too much and everyone needs some competition in the industry anyway right?

How will the dual 64 bit processing compare to the best single P4 or the best dual Xeons once the Windows 64 bit OS come out? I think there is going to be some serious kick @$$ going down.

Are there any Linux 64 bit Users out there with dual or single Opterons? Please confirm this for me!!!

bluemagicuk
12-18-2003, 08:28 PM
Anyone have first hand experience that could shed some light
on why the intel xeons are like $700 more than the amd
athlon mp processors?

Is there a considerable difference for that extra cash?

toddy333
12-18-2003, 08:44 PM
If you are paying $700 for a Xeon, you are getting ripped off. A Xeon 3.0GHz w/ 533FSB costs $471. Unless if you are speaking of a Xeon chip that recently came out. There is a somewhat increase in price of the Xeon from the Athlon MP because 1) there is a slight performance increase and 2) you are paying for the “Intel Inside” name.

Read some of the previous threads in this post for more info.

dvornik
12-18-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by toddy333
Because I am low on money, I will start with only 1 cpu and upgrade when I get more cash (This is how us broke people do it).


It doesn't make sense in my experience. Just spend less money on single-CPU components and upgrade to a new system sooner. By the time you "get more cash" chances are your whole system will be close to becoming obsolete.

As a reminder to budget-minded people many components can be bought for way below the market price if you keep an eye on current deals:

http://www.bensbargains.net/
http://www.hot-deals.org/
http://www.slickdeals.net/
http://techbargains.com/

Check that TDK 4X DVD+-RW for $90...

MadMax
12-18-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by kex

you can run 32bit appz on 64bit processors but i would rather run a 64bit os with 64bit apps on a 64bit processor, i can see your investment blowing away in the wind.

Very incorrect.

This CPU runs 32 bit and 64 bit OS's equally well. As a 32 bit processor, the Opteron is top of the line in performance.

There are a number of benefits from 64 bit OS other than just more than 4gb of memory. The misinformation around here is astounding sometimes.

For the record, I have more than one of the Tyan K8W's, runing 246's and Windows 64 which I got at Siggraph from M$.

Promise and Silicon Image have both released their 64 bit drivers for SATA.

And a number of apps have announced or released betas of 64 bit apps. (Nero beta is out)

It makes a very nice difference.


Originally posted by kex
i would wait for the 64bit market to become stabler as its unclear what might happen next or atleast wait for windows 64bit if your using max

That seems to be a common fallacy.

There is nothing unstable or unclear about the 64 bit market. Anyone who claims there is is misinformed.

AMD's plans are quite stable and clear. One only needs to actually make a minimal effort to look.

Opterons are smoking Xeons by as much as 47% in some tests, look at Anandtech. Most graphics apps are on a par or better on Opteron, only minimal differences occur in apps that absolutely require raw clock speed, and even then the difference is so minimal as to be measured in numbers too smal to detect with the human eye.

No reason not to buy 64 bit right now, none at all.

nobrain
12-18-2003, 10:09 PM
I agree about finding good deals, I paid full price for every component in my pc, but the tech at our company got me a server pc dual pIII xeon 1 ghz and 1.5gb ram with scsi hard drive and 64 mg fire gl2 video card from a dell refurbished servers place for $350. No lie. Not only does is it a 1/4 of the price of my personal p4 system at home but it also runs circles around it in terms of render time and overall stability.

I definetly say before you go out and blow your hard earned cash on brand new equipment try looking for surplus outlets, refurbished suppliers, wholesalers - that sort of thing.

For the price I paid for my system, I could have had myself a mini render farm.

toddy333
12-18-2003, 10:16 PM
Thank you MadMax for giving me the reassurance I was looking for. There is no doubt in my mind now! Opteron is the way to go.

PixelVampire
12-18-2003, 10:35 PM
tod 333 which mobo are you getting finally for your Opteron?

toddy333
12-18-2003, 10:56 PM
The MSI K8T Master2-FAR Motherboard. I think it is the best deal for the price.

MadMax
12-18-2003, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by toddy333
The MSI K8T Master2-FAR Motherboard. I think it is the best deal for the price.

Just allow me to piss on your plans for a second.......

That MSI board is based on a VIA chipset.

For the average joe who does nothing but browse the web, VIA is fine.

Where VIA will run into problems is if you intend to add something like a DPS Reality card, Video Toaster 3 or similar NLE system. They don't work. Don't know why the problem with VIA, but nForce and AMD chipsets work just fine.

VIA was largely responsible for most of the bad rap AMD got early on in it's Athlon line.

However your alternative is adding another 200.00 to the price. If all you are going to do is software based, and you do not intend to add specialty hardware later, you should be fine.

toddy333
12-18-2003, 11:30 PM
MadMax
What are "DPS Reality card, Video Toaster 3 or similar NLE systems".

MadMax
12-19-2003, 12:03 AM
Non Linear Editing System (NLE)

Professional gear for editing film or video. Usually has some type of hardware encoding.

They allow you to edit and combine 3D graphics, effects and various clips and cuts on a timeline or flow area.

I bring it up because some people do consider these things when purchasing a system. Obviously not everyone does, but better have all the knowledge going into it that you can before you buy.

3Dfx_Sage
12-19-2003, 01:11 AM
as for PCI Express, it is not available yet. It will completely replace AGP and PCI slots. The faster slots (x16) will give you 16Gbps whereas AGP 8x gives you about 2.5Gbps.

As for the 64bit version of Windows... hate to burtst your bubble, but look more towards Q2 or even Q3 of 2004. MS is going to wait for Intel to announce their 64bit plans. However, MS has said that they will only support one 64bit standard for the PC, which means that Intel's 64-bit x86 CPU's had better well be able to run AMD64 code if Intel wants any marketspace. The 64-bit market is very stable, just don't expect to get a 64bit version of Windows really soon.

64-bit will make a lot of difference other than stuffing more memory into your computer. it will allow you to do things that you could never do before (with reasonable speed, that it) but will not, alone, make existing things faster. What will make existing things faster is simply the Opteron is a very efficient chip.

MadMax
12-19-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
As for the 64bit version of Windows... hate to burtst your bubble, but look more towards Q2 or even Q3 of 2004. MS is going to wait for Intel to announce their 64bit plans.


I wouldn't quote stories on the Inquirer as being gospel. They have as bad a track record as Tom's hardware.

The current prediction is April.

3Dfx_Sage
12-19-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by MadMax
I wouldn't quote stories on the Inquirer as being gospel. They have as bad a track record as Tom's hardware.

The current prediction is April. what makes you assume I got the info from the Inquirer, rather than the opposite? Or perhaps we both know sme of the same people...

MadMax
12-19-2003, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
what makes you assume I got the info from the Inquirer, rather than the opposite? Or perhaps we both know sme of the same people...

Are you saying you didn't?

Your first mention of this is coincidentally AFTER the Inquirer posts it.

either way, the presumption sound illogical anyway and doesn't make a lot of sense for more reasons than I can get into.

3Dfx_Sage
12-19-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by MadMax
Are you saying you didn't?

Your first mention of this is coincidentally AFTER the Inquirer posts it.

either way, the presumption sound illogical anyway and doesn't make a lot of sense for more reasons than I can get into. you're right, I did pick up the "waiting for Intel" bit from the Inq. but the delay I about heard from elsewhere. And it is purely coincidental that I posted this after they did, I wasn't even paying attention to this thread until after I got home today. And, I don't know who told them that, but the person I heard it from has a pretty good track record.

But, now I am hearing early-mid Q2 as a release date. That could coincide with Intel's announcement, but I will admit that it is purely speculation (at least on my part it is, it's very possible that someone else knows more than I.)

MadMax
12-19-2003, 03:25 AM
If there was any truth to the rumor that they were waiting for Intel to catch up, XP64 wouldn't be available for another year.

Intel may announce, but they are not going to get x86-64 in their Prescott chips anytime soon, they can't even get those out as they are.

So like other Inq. rumors, you can chalk this off as another attempt to generate hits for their site.

Most likely the rumor about SP2 and XP problems is the cause.

3Dfx_Sage
12-19-2003, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by MadMax
If there was any truth to the rumor that they were waiting for Intel to catch up, XP64 wouldn't be available for another year.

Intel may announce, but they are not going to get x86-64 in their Prescott chips anytime soon, they can't even get those out as they are.

So like other Inq. rumors, you can chalk this off as another attempt to generate hits for their site.

Most likely the rumor about SP2 and XP problems is the cause. I didn't think that the statement was that they were waiting for Intel to release a chip, but just announce it. Everyone that I have talked to still believes that Prescot will have some 64-bit abilities, just they will not be enabled until a respin. I'm quite positive that there will be no 64bit functionality enabled for the socket versions.

MadMax
12-19-2003, 04:15 AM
Yeah but I don't see waiting for Intel to make an announcement really sounds all that logical.

M$ is goign to impeded their own sales that they could have NOW, for a paper announcement for some support at a future date?

Just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

oxyg3n
12-19-2003, 04:22 AM
@madmax

How do you like your tyan k8w mbs? I am seriously considering purchasing the dual tyan tiger in the next few weeks.

And do you think that the cost of the opteron 246 will go down soon since the 248 came out?

MadMax
12-19-2003, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by oxyg3n
@madmax

How do you like your tyan k8w mbs? I am seriously considering purchasing the dual tyan tiger in the next few weeks.

And do you think that the cost of the opteron 246 will go down soon since the 248 came out?


I can say I absolutely love it. It is probably the best system I have ever had. Even better than my dual Dec Alpha's.

Very stable, reliable and fast. I use one as a workstation and it is pretty loaded.

I also have 2 of the early Newisys systems, plus a few additional K8W's and some SK8N's.

Not as thrilled with the SK8N's, but it isn't a big deal. I have FX chips on those.

For Maya, Opteron is absolutely the fastest processor available. Lightwave is pretty evenly matched with the P4's and Xeons so no complaints there.

As for price drops, I doubt it. If they do it won't be by much, at least for awhile. 248's may be the top dog for a bit.

But stranger things have happened.

glitterboy
12-19-2003, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by MadMax
Very incorrect.

This CPU runs 32 bit and 64 bit OS's equally well. As a 32 bit processor, the Opteron is top of the line in performance.

There are a number of benefits from 64 bit OS other than just more than 4gb of memory. The misinformation around here is astounding sometimes.

For the record, I have more than one of the Tyan K8W's, runing 246's and Windows 64 which I got at Siggraph from M$.

Promise and Silicon Image have both released their 64 bit drivers for SATA.

And a number of apps have announced or released betas of 64 bit apps. (Nero beta is out)

It makes a very nice difference.




That seems to be a common fallacy.

There is nothing unstable or unclear about the 64 bit market. Anyone who claims there is is misinformed.

AMD's plans are quite stable and clear. One only needs to actually make a minimal effort to look.

Opterons are smoking Xeons by as much as 47% in some tests, look at Anandtech. Most graphics apps are on a par or better on Opteron, only minimal differences occur in apps that absolutely require raw clock speed, and even then the difference is so minimal as to be measured in numbers too smal to detect with the human eye.

No reason not to buy 64 bit right now, none at all.

hold hold the mayo! no reason? how about you hand me 1600 bucks for the A64fx-51? :D the cost doesn't justify the performance increase - at the moment. Not to many of us can fork out moola for a duallie. since i'm from the north, its never cheap here. :(

A single Opteron 244 is still getting whipped in the 3D benches by the P4c 3ghz. Overall, nothing exciting nor to cream my pants over. :D My special 2.4c sl6z3 stepping - OC - would perform concordantly to the 3ghz.

there's plenty of reason to wait until the A64 matures - same with the chipsets - like VIA. *shivers

47%: ?? on what benches? its all enterprise and server benching. Whats that got to do with DCC? when theres a review on duallies tested on DCC benches, I'll pay attention.

MadMax
12-19-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by glitterboy
hold hold the mayo! no reason? how about you hand me 1600 bucks for the A64fx-51? :D the cost doesn't justify the performance increase - at the moment.

Hmmmm....... It would probably be a good idea to know what one is talking about before posting an obvious mistake.

FX is just barely over 700.00 USD, interestingly enough it out performs the Intel P4EE by a fair amount and is over 300.00 less, give or take a few dollars.

Athlon64 starts in at just over 200.00

So please tell us where you get 1600.00 from?


Not to many of us can fork out moola for a duallie. since i'm from the north, its never cheap here. :(

I'm sorry, how do your personal finances have an effect on what people should buy?

On the extreme high end, AMD is substantially cheaper than Intel, and is 64 bit.

On the lower end of the scale, at 200.00 it is competitive pricewise with Intel there also, and is faster than all but the very top P4's, and is 64 bit.


A single Opteron 244 is still getting whipped in the 3D benches by the P4c 3ghz. Overall, nothing exciting nor to cream my pants over.


Then I guess you need to pay better attention to the posted benchmarks and reviews. On the very few instances where Opteron is second place, the difference is negligible. nano seconds don't qualify as whipped.

Opteron is the fastest platform for Maya. Opteron scores are a virtual tie with anything Intel has. The only wins for Intel ae those applications where clock speed is preferred over all else, and even then only marginally and often within the possible +/- variance of errors in tests.

And it gains additional speed points, even though minimally on Win64.


there's plenty of reason to wait until the A64 matures - same with the chipsets - like VIA. *shivers


Really? give one.

This maturity claim is completely false. Both the CPU's and chipsets are more than ready for primetime. AS for VIA, the only reason I can see for your comment is trolling.



when theres a review on duallies tested on DCC benches, I'll pay attention.


For some reason I seriosuly doubt that.

erazal
12-20-2003, 07:26 PM
MadMax, i believe the $1600 he's talking about is the CAD price equivalent of the USD prices you mentioned.

If you look at it from our point of view (Canada), everything that's been mentioned about the Opterons would cost us pretty much all our beer, and we arent exactly willing to give that up so easily.

It's agreed that the Opterons are starting the 64bit revolution, and many will follow suit in the coming years, but this is just a start, the beginning.

Basically your saying the 64bit technology is stable, safe and what have you. That may be great for your taste, but i wont be satisfied until i see everything PC progress to 64bit technology. And i mean EVERYTHING, basically when 32bit technology is totally obsolete.

No reason not to buy 64 bit right now, none at all.

Try telling that to the general public.

IMO, i can name a few reasons....It will be too expensive at the start. Intel hasnt even crossed that line, and when they do, i can imagine it'll be WAY expensive to even consider....at least for people on a budget. Also, the Opterons are pretty expensive right now too in it's early stages.
Sure, competition can drive these costs to be a lot cheaper, which leads me to my next reason.....

32bit still exists. There's no doubt that the new processors will (hell SHOULD) be able to run both 32bit and 64bit applications, but in terms of the processors themselves, i really dont see a lot of general consumers forking out the extra moolah for 64bit processors right now when they can simply get 32bit processors for a lot cheaper. Hell, most general consumers dont know the difference. That would contribute to the prolonging of the 64bit technology maturing. Now maybe WHEN the local Best Buy and other stores starts selling computers with 64bit processors in them (and i'm talking ALL the computers in the Best Buy and everywhere), then that would make all the difference since consumers would have no choice but to buy the 64bit processors (especially if the 32bit processors are being sold at a minimal rate). Of course by then, that would mean the 64bit technology would have matured now would it, Possibly within a year or within two years from now.

One can argue that if you go ahead with the 64bit technology now, you can be ready for what the future holds. That point is indeed valid, but wouldnt it be a whole lot better for one to wait until 64bit technology is at it's peak, it's golden age as it were? My point is, why only be READY for what the future holds by owning one now, when you can purchase the very best 64bit technology when it finally matures to that stage? Makes sense no? The Opterons now will be overpowered and shadowed by the Opterons later on, especially when the 64bit technology takes control.....AND at the same, or even a much cheaper price range since the competition will make it so.

Opteron is the fastest platform for Maya. Opteron scores are a virtual tie with anything Intel has. The only wins for Intel ae those applications where clock speed is preferred over all else, and even then only marginally and often within the possible +/- variance of errors in tests.

Thats all well and good. Even though the Opteron can run these faster, it surely doesnt mean that nothing else can run these programs. Sure getting the Opteron if you can afford it would be great, but there is nothing wrong with getting a single P4 or even anything less than an Opteron to do the same job.

IMO, If you have a lot of cash to spend and can afford the Opterons, more power to you. If your on a budget, i suggest you get yourself something that isnt as expensive, but power intensive, and then wait until the 64bit technology takes hold in the industry, THEN make your 64bit purchase. That way you save money and get the best 64bit processor available to you at the time.

MadMax
12-20-2003, 07:42 PM
Yeah but the point is, the guy was asking about Opterons because that is what he wanted.

Later a comment was made about getting Athlon64 instead if he was going to do a single to get started.

As for me saying no reason not to buy it now, that is easily supportable. It isn't like he was going to buy a Dec Alpha which had fairly limited capability where software was concerned.

Any of the AMD 64's run just fine as a 32 bit processor. In fact if you look at it from that perspective, you are not buying on the future of what 64 bit will do later, you are buying a state of the art, very powerful 32 processor.

Considering the introductory prices, some of the Athlon64's are cheaper than the high end of the AthlonXP line and yet have features far beyond those of the XP.

So even skipping the 64 bit issue, you are getting a very powerful, very stable processor at a very competitive price.

The comments I objected to were from someone taking things way out in left field. I'm tellign the original poster about a 200.00 chip, and this guy comes storming in about the FX being 700.00

This would be the same if someone were asking about a 300.00 Xeon, and I charged into the conversation compaining that he shouldn't buy Intel because the P4EE is over 1,000.00
It didn't make any rational sense.

So my comment about there being no reason not to get one stands very well in this issue.

erazal
12-20-2003, 08:25 PM
Make sure when you say there's no reason not to get one, it's directed to the original poster and not stated as a general fact. Just sounded like it was the solution for everyone.

But no worries, i hear you. There's really no point in arguing this anyways seeing as the original poster WANTS to buy the Opterons anyway.

Buying PC's are never easy, a lot of research goes into it and by the time your done researching everything, something else comes out that you have to take into consideration.

All in all, whatever gets the job done is all you need.

glitterboy
12-20-2003, 11:06 PM
it may be so with the maya benches but it still doesn't justify buying it since it still can't beat that P4. 64bit tech is still new. I figure why buy now when it'll decrease in price and the batches mature that you can get one that'll OC like the jiuhb/auihb editions.

Really? give one.

This maturity claim is completely false. Both the CPU's and chipsets are more than ready for primetime. AS for VIA, the only reason I can see for your comment is trolling.

i just gave you my reason! VIA has always sucked lemons from the early chipsets of kt133. I hardly put much emphasis on reviews but more on user experience. generally, it always been problematic with VIA chipsets. If i were to gamble on the VIA, I'd wait for user feedback and see how the chipset matures - for all of them brands. nforce3 isn't doing much better either.

the old AMD mpx chipsets wasn't that stellar either. so i reserve my opinion until i see how the users fair with the a64 chipsets.

calling me trolling is equivalent to saying that opteron smoking the xeon by 47% when you never specify which benches they were. all of them were server ends, nothing to do with DCC.

it may be so with the maya benches but it still doesn't justify buying it since it still can't beat that P4. 64bit tech is still new and we only seen a glimpse of its capability. I figure why buy now when it'll decrease in price and the batches mature that you can get one that'll OC like the jiuhb/auihb editions at a substantially cheaper price.

Really? give one.

This maturity claim is completely false. Both the CPU's and chipsets are more than ready for primetime. AS for VIA, the only reason I can see for your comment is trolling.

i just gave you my reason. VIA has always sucked lemons from the early chipsets of kt133. I hardly put much emphasis on reviews but more on user experience. generally, it always been problematic with VIA chipsets. If i were to gamble on the VIA, I'd wait for user feedback and see how the chipset matures - for all of them brands.

calling me trolling is equivalent to saying that opteron smoking the xeon by 47% when you never specify which benches they were. all of them were server ends, nothing to do with DCC.

about the finances and duallie: excuse my msidirection. i meant to mean in canada, any two-cpu board is damn pricey. anyhow, if i were to buy a two cpu mobo, i skip the non-server boards. what's the point being high-end when your PCI is the slowest pipe? 133mb/sec isn't going to have the zip like a RAID scsi (which can be bought very cheaply on ebay) with 66/100mhz PCI-X or 3GIO busses (533mb/sec).


so my argument is I'd wait (for me).

MadMax
12-21-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by glitterboy
it may be so with the maya benches but it still doesn't justify buying it since it still can't beat that P4. 64bit tech is still new. I figure why buy now when it'll decrease in price and the batches mature that you can get one that'll OC like the jiuhb/auihb editions.


What do you mena it can't beat that P4? that is nonsense.

The only benches that P4 has any advantage in are ones that dependant on raw clock speed, and those are very few and Intel's wins are very minimal.

You keep commenting on DCC, and yet Opteron beats P4 hands down on Maya, and matches it in Lightwave, and I say match since AMD only wind by a few seconds.

Sorry don't know about Max.

Reviews on Tom's Crapware and Anandtech had FX winning on Cinebench and POV, Rhino.

Not sure about XSI but I would presume simialr results.

So your comments about getting whipped just don't mesh with real world results.

i just gave you my reason! VIA has always sucked lemons from the early chipsets of kt133. I hardly put much emphasis on reviews but more on user experience. generally, it always been problematic with VIA chipsets. If i were to gamble on the VIA, I'd wait for user feedback and see how the chipset matures - for all of them brands. nforce3 isn't doing much better either.


And yet you are conveniently ignoring other chipsets. Check any other thread on the subject of chipsets and you'll hear me say VIA sucks. Using your argument, then people shouldn't buy an Intel processor because of how crappy VIA is.

Judging by your comments it is clear you have little to no knowledge of the subject and are just tossign out wild comments that have no basis in reality.

nForce3 not faring very well? Either back up your commetns or stop making them. For the record, nForce3 is just fine. In fact, Anadtech just did a comparative review between nForce3 and VIA.

The main complaint from people whining about nForce is that it doesn't include the Soundstorm Audio which everyone liked in nForce2, and some boards do not have the ability to lock the PCI and AGP busses, which is a bios only issue since some of them do lock. This would only be of concern if you are overclocking, and I wouldn't suggest that to someone building a working system.


about the finances and duallie: excuse my msidirection. i meant to mean in canada, any two-cpu board is damn pricey. anyhow, if i were to buy a two cpu mobo, i skip the non-server boards. what's the point being high-end when your PCI is the slowest pipe? 133mb/sec isn't going to have the zip like a RAID scsi (which can be bought very cheaply on ebay) with 66/100mhz PCI-X or 3GIO busses (533mb/sec).


Not sure what relevance this last part has to this discussion at all.

First you have a problem with 64 bit, which seems to be based soley on no experience with it and limited finances, even though it was shown that the intro price is only 213.00 USD. Which puts it less that many of the 32 bit chips, and considerably more powerful.

Fact is, very few motherboards, AMD or Intel have PCI-X. Whats your point?

You can buy and use a decently fast SCSI raid controller for any motherboard. The Tyan Opteron board has several PCI-X slots.

So what exactly is your point?

anoe_nomus
12-21-2003, 09:15 PM
can we speak english pls.:applause:
so after reading this seemingly verbose thread and inane quarrel over intel and amd, Your fanBoyIsm knowledge have led me to beleive this:
-opteron is better than P4 (for maya, which i use)
-PCI-X slots r a good thing.. i guess
-if u will not be doing rendering, go with the single chipset mobo with more juice than a duallie
-most ppl do not know the difference between 64 and 32 bit chipset... (i read an article about 64 bit somewhere, so i'm totally oblivious to the difference btwn the 2)
-FX cards are too expensive.... anyways MAYA and LW alswas score dead last in benchmarks in those benchmark garbage comparisons
-Canada not only sucks, it is expensive... JK, canada rocks :buttrock: kinda....
:hmm:
-so after reading this thread, i gather there are some pretty savvy hardware geeks outhere, and i will keep my dual PIII 1.ghz and lousy pc 133 ram for now, and wait until the next 3 mo b4 i decide on what to buy. although the choice is clear.... opteron and a good mobo or is it intel :blush:
+ whatever i can scavange for my meager $1700 USD budget (ram disk etc) ...
so a dual opteron is what to get right??? i thought P4 with HyperThreading was the best thing outthere (32 bit wise), and imagine a dual P4 3.2 Xeon with HT... would that not beat the opteron
--------------------------------------------------------------------
thanx to all for making the choice even more convoluted to the non-hardware knowledgeable guys like myself...
P.S. canada does suck heh!

Tan
12-23-2003, 01:07 AM
Look what I found, dual opteron vs dual xeon for DCC:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1402709,00.asp

MadMax
12-23-2003, 01:39 AM
good article.

mbatten
01-02-2004, 12:29 AM
For a thorough review of the Tyan Tiger K8W Motherboard that even tests 3DS Max benchmarks, check out "Dual Opterons With a Twist : Tyan’s Tiger K8W Motherboard (http://www.hardwareseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rlid=68739)".

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