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View Full Version : New Zealand bans Rockstar's 'Manhunt'


Array
12-13-2003, 03:16 AM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3539142&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Things arent looking good for this company, are they? Cant wait for the next iteration of GTA though....

BillB
12-13-2003, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by Array
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3539142&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Things arent looking good for this company, are they? Cant wait for the next iteration of GTA though....

Makes me proud to be a Kiwi :thumbsup:

NUKE-CG
12-13-2003, 03:34 AM
Is it banned anywhere else?
NZ isn't really that hard on content, well.. in comparison to others, Australia has a few games banned which NZ has as M.. and R18.

I saw something about it on ABC News, I'd expect the US to have it banned within this year, if it hasn't already.

It does look a little excessive.. plastic bags.. grotting ;\

chadtheartist
12-13-2003, 03:40 AM
You're telling me that's an actual game? Unbelievable. GTA is one thing, but this is really sick. Killing someone by suffocation, on purpose, even in a game, takes a sick mind to think up, and even act upon it. I'm sorry but Rockstar needs some moral help. I mean seriously, who thinks that this game is fun?

I fear for our species sometimes.

:cry:

swardson
12-13-2003, 04:24 AM
I second that chadtheartist. I so much wish our country had more morals with things like this. While loving games and CG movies, I really fear the creative "sick" minds that will use technology in 3D graphics to create things like this.

PhilOsirus
12-13-2003, 05:31 AM
From the moment Manhunt was announced I knew I would not rent it. GTA is fun on various levels, comical, satirical, but Manhunt is just passing violence under the pretex of story-telling. Just like State of Emergency (which sucked ass) Rockstar definitly put ideas over content this time. Unlike a game like the ninja-simulator Tenchu, in which you have various ways to kill your enemies but isn't the focus of the game, the violence is logical within the context of the game, just like violence in a war-related story. Manhunt is an invented story used as a pretex for putting violent content.

The story is about someone given the death penalty, but instead of being killed is actually just put to sleep and transported to some city filled with nutcase criminals, all for the purpose of making a movie. The whole city is controlled by a "Director" whom is constantly watching over you. Your goal is of course to escape, but violence is necessary to achieve this.

This is much like the Japanese movie where a bunch of school kids are brought to an island and are forced to take part of a game where all must kill each other or be killed.

The story is defendable, but the spin put on it cannot be ignored. And when you make a game like Manhunt, you MUST take responsibilities and wonder if it is worth making at all. Even if the game is not aimed at kids, a game where everything revolves around murder is just ridiculous. It's too bad, don't expect the good games they made to be protected when they also produce crap like this game. Max Payne and GTA are great games that are somewhat balanced in content (Max Payne more than GTA), Manhunt is almost insulting.

But the problem for me is that games like Driver (the third one is about to be released), which are definitly unlike the games above, much more in line with what Hollywood has been making, may suffer because of more radical games. When people will have seen enough of Manhunt-like crap, they won't bother to study each and every case to see if the game goes overboard or not, they'll put them all in the same bag.

I would actually like to hear gaming companies release a unified statement on the matter and also in which they express their condemnation of irresponsible gaming content which hurts them all. If Rockstar must take the fall then so be it, but so far 99% of gaming companies have been responsible in the creation of their games, I don't want them to bend over because of 1%.

P_T
12-13-2003, 08:20 AM
this isn't a CRIME sim like GTA. this is a MURDER SIM. methinks Rockstar gone a bit too far with their violent games...

problem is this game's gonna be like "the forbidden fruit". teenagers, kids probably gonna want it real bad.

heh, i can almost see the possible headlines if this game's production is not stopped... "Teen arrested for school garrotting", "Teen stabbed neighbour with broken bottle" etc etc.

banning games is almost pointless in this internet age. most effective method is probably recalling the games before it hits the market coz once it's out there... well... u get my point.

NUKE-CG
12-13-2003, 03:34 PM
Could someone who has seen some footage of it (general footage.. not hyped up media scenes where it is the extreme footage only) compare it to your average horror movie/FPS/TV ?

I understand the interactive side of gaming, how that could increasingly drive a more violent mentality more than viewing a movie, but is there anything on Par with this which is not banned?

jipe
12-13-2003, 03:47 PM
I find this ironic considering that New Zealand is the home of Peter Jackson's Bad Taste and Dead Alive, the latter of which is one of the goriest movies ever made..

Dennik
12-13-2003, 04:28 PM
I think game developers should be judged for the content of their games, before they start production, or during production. Definitely before they throw their product in the market where its too late to back up and ban it.
I'm afraid those people are taking advantage of the lack of laws in many nations, regarding game content.
Making murder sims is unthinkable to me. If it was in my hand, i would shut this company down.

PhilOsirus
12-13-2003, 05:16 PM
I understand the interactive side of gaming, how that could increasingly drive a more violent mentality more than viewing a movie, but is there anything on Par with this which is not banned?

No there is nothing that even comes close, and here's why:

Games like GTA, Tenchu (Ninja simulator) or Medal of Honor contain violence, but those games are based on existing "worlds". GTA is about organized crime with a satirical take on the absurdity of it all. Tenchu is about Ninjas that protect the innocent and try to save their land from crazy demon worshiping lords (it contains violence when you kill enemies as you have various ways to kill them, but ninjas do that anyway). Medal of Honor is a game based on World War 2, hence contains a lot of war-like violence such as guns and tanks, it's normal as well.

There are also games that contain violence and that are not based on reality, such as Silent Hill. But games like Silent Hill are horror games in which the goal is to scare the player as one would do in a horror movie or book. There might be weird creatues and bleeding walls, but it is justfiable within the context of the game.

Manhunt centers around murder and killing. Even if all your enemies are other psychopathic gangs, the game was built around the idea of utmost violent content. That is what makes it extremely irresponsible as Rockstar knew very well the consequences of making such a game and they could have put their creative energy to develop something more responsible as they have done in the past without limiting their freedom.

This is why Rockstar must be condemned and other companies must release an immediate unified statement in which they all ask the government to enforce the rating system so as to protect themselves from the unslaught that will come because of Rockstar's Manhunt. It will enable them to distance themselves from Rockstar's game, which is really the only one that has went overboard, and demonstrate their integrity facing their own products, the general public and gamers as well.

I sent a simillar letter to a few companies before, I hope others who share the same view will do as well. If companies do not release a unified statement on the matter the rating system will not be enforced in time and all videogame companies will -greatly- suffer from this.

Array
12-13-2003, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
No there is nothing that even comes close, and here's why:

Games like GTA, Tenchu (Ninja simulator) or Medal of Honor contain violence, but those games are based on existing "worlds". GTA is about organized crime with a satirical take on the absurdity of it all. Tenchu is about Ninjas that protect the innocent and try to save their land from crazy demon worshiping lords (it contains violence when you kill enemies as you have various ways to kill them, but ninjas do that anyway). Medal of Honor is a game based on World War 2, hence contains a lot of war-like violence such as guns and tanks, it's normal as well.

There are also games that contain violence and that are not based on reality, such as Silent Hill. But games like Silent Hill are horror games in which the goal is to scare the player as one would do in a horror movie or book. There might be weird creatues and bleeding walls, but it is justfiable within the context of the game.

Manhunt centers around murder and killing. Even if all your enemies are other psychopathic gangs, the game was built around the idea of utmost violent content. That is what makes it extremely irresponsible as Rockstar knew very well the consequences of making such a game and they could have put their creative energy to develop something more responsible as they have done in the past without limiting their freedom.

This is why Rockstar must be condemned and other companies must release an immediate unified statement in which they all ask the government to enforce the rating system so as to protect themselves from the unslaught that will come because of Rockstar's Manhunt. It will enable them to distance themselves from Rockstar's game, which is really the only one that has went overboard, and demonstrate their integrity facing their own products, the general public and gamers as well.

I sent a simillar letter to a few companies before, I hope others who share the same view will do as well. If companies do not release a unified statement on the matter the rating system will not be enforced in time and all videogame companies will -greatly- suffer from this.

Have you played the game though? I haven't had a chance to play it myself, but I cant imagine it being any worse than some othe games I've played.

chadtheartist
12-13-2003, 05:46 PM
Have you played the game though? I haven't had a chance to play it myself, but I cant imagine it being any worse than some othe games I've played.

It's not a game. That's my whole point. It's designed to encourage people to think of more "creative" ways to go about killing someone. Then to top it off you can "Watch" it over again as if to sensationalize your actions. That to me doesn't constitute in any way that this is a game. A game is supposed to fun, in my book, but this is horrific.

As far as my opinion on this and GTA, they are the same. IMO, there is no need to add reckless violence in any game, especially when you can "simulate" real life situations. How many kids do you think tried to pick up a prostitute in GTA Vice City, just to see what happens? I think they could have left it out entirely and the gameplay would have been just as good. But I seem to hold a minority opinion on that. I just hope Rockstar is ready for what's about to come. Because I'm sure a lot of people are going to be complaining about this "game" in the near future.

Array
12-13-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by chadtheartist
It's not a game. That's my whole point. It's designed to encourage people to think of more "creative" ways to go about killing someone. Then to top it off you can "Watch" it over again as if to sensationalize your actions. That to me doesn't constitute in any way that this is a game. A game is supposed to fun, in my book, but this is horrific.

As far as my opinion on this and GTA, they are the same. IMO, there is no need to add reckless violence in any game, especially when you can "simulate" real life situations. How many kids do you think tried to pick up a prostitute in GTA Vice City, just to see what happens? I think they could have left it out entirely and the gameplay would have been just as good. But I seem to hold a minority opinion on that. I just hope Rockstar is ready for what's about to come. Because I'm sure a lot of people are going to be complaining about this "game" in the near future.

These games are NOT designed for kids in mind. The IDSA gave GTA and Manhunt mature ratings. It's up to the retailers and parents to enforce these.

froggyplat
12-13-2003, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by chadtheartist
IMO, there is no need to add reckless violence in any game, especially when you can "simulate" real life situations. How many kids do you think tried to pick up a prostitute in GTA Vice City, just to see what happens?

how is picking up a prostitute reckless violence? i'd be more concerned about the part where you run over people!

actually, that part is pretty fun, now that i think about it.

Neil
12-13-2003, 06:51 PM
My point about this game the whole time has been, it's a violence revolving with a story thrown in, when it should be a story with some violence thrown in.

They were obviously banking on hype and word of mouth making quick sales, because after people have played it and reviewed it, it wasn't gonna bring in long term sales.

and to your question of ever playing a game that is ultra violent, the only one that sticks out for me is THRILL KILL.
http://www.js-productions.com/thrillkill/gallery.php
4 fighters (that you chose) were thrown in a ring and then you had to cut them with knifes, jab wood sticks into them, choke them..etc. Then once one of the characters is near death, you hear "thrill kill...thrill kill... thrill kill.. " keeps sayign it till you kill them. Very odd. hehe. The game never got officially released. It's banned.

http://www.js-productions.com/thrillkill/images/tk02.jpg

beatloafer
12-13-2003, 06:55 PM
Gimme a break! You guys want to censor gaming! Do you know what you're saying? They already have ratings, what more do you want? I think its up to the consumer to tell the game developers whats acceptable or not... meaning... if you don't think a game like Manhunt should be made, then don't buy it.

Neil
12-13-2003, 07:03 PM
One more snip on banning videogames:

"There are many other companies out there who would happily market it." Historically, discontinuing games due to violent content has resulted in an angry response from gamers. This is the first time a company has discontinued a completed fighting game that it inherited through a business acquisition, but it is not the first time that a company has decided against releasing games because of violent content.


In 1993, Nintendo had Acclaim Entertainment remove some of brutal moves from the Super NES version of "Mortal Kombat." As a result, the Sega Genesis version of the game outsold the Nintendo version by a factor of more than three-to-one. It also resulted in bushels of angry letters from players of all ages and even a couple of irate parents.


According to Becker, EA has also received angry letters and telephone calls concerning the decision to cancel "Thrill Kill."

chadtheartist
12-13-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by froggyplat
how is picking up a prostitute reckless violence? i'd be more concerned about the part where you run over people!

actually, that part is pretty fun, now that i think about it.

Prostitution is a violent sexual act. It involoves predators who use money to get their jollies, basically dehumanizing the "prostitute". So to me, it's a violent act.

I guess I should have broken that last paragraph up into two though. One dealing with violence, and the other dealing with just one type of situation in the game.

These games are NOT designed for kids in mind. The IDSA gave GTA and Manhunt mature ratings. It's up to the retailers and parents to enforce these.

My brother works in the Electronics department at Wal-Mart. He's probably the only person there who adamantly tells parents what's in these games, and wouldn't you know it, Parents still buy them for their kids. Why is that you ask? Because the kids want them. Giving a game a mature rating means nothing. If kids want to play a game, they will play it. And from the sales of games like GTA, I can only assume that many of those millions of games are being placed in kids hands, regardless of the M rating. Which in my opinion should be changed to IM, for immature. Promiscuous Sex, Violence, Drugs, etc... do not make a game mature.

Placing the decision in the hands of retailers or parents to decide wether or not a game is acceptable for kids is doomed to failure. Basically, retailers want the money, so they don't truly care, and parents are naive, and don't recognize the potential obscenities in games, regardless of the rating. Now if parents were forced to play the game, that would be a different story, but that isn't a requirement, and the little M is all they have to judge a game by.

Array
12-13-2003, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by chadtheartist
Prostitution is a violent sexual act. It involoves predators who use money to get their jollies, basically dehumanizing the "prostitute". So to me, it's a violent act.

I guess I should have broken that last paragraph up into two though. One dealing with violence, and the other dealing with just one type of situation in the game.



My brother works in the Electronics department at Wal-Mart. He's probably the only person there who adamantly tells parents what's in these games, and wouldn't you know it, Parents still buy them for their kids. Why is that you ask? Because the kids want them. Giving a game a mature rating means nothing. If kids want to play a game, they will play it. And from the sales of games like GTA, I can only assume that many of those millions of games are being placed in kids hands, regardless of the M rating. Which in my opinion should be changed to IM, for immature. Promiscuous Sex, Violence, Drugs, etc... do not make a game mature.

Placing the decision in the hands of retailers or parents to decide wether or not a game is acceptable for kids is doomed to failure. Basically, retailers want the money, so they don't truly care, and parents are naive, and don't recognize the potential obscenities in games, regardless of the rating. Now if parents were forced to play the game, that would be a different story, but that isn't a requirement, and the little M is all they have to judge a game by.

I hardly see how it is the game developer's fault in this case. If parents and retailers can keep kids from EASILY getting access to porn and liquor, they should be able to do the same with a game intended for an adult audience.

If anything, I think most parents dont care, and it's just a few loud mouths making all of the ruckus.

chadtheartist
12-13-2003, 07:28 PM
If anything, I think most parents don't care, and it's just a few loud mouths making all of the ruckus.

I guess I'm a loud mouth then. :buttrock:

If games were controlled like liquor is in the US, there would be rioting in the streets. I can see it now, " What, I can't buy Slaughter all the Babies 6 until I'm 21!!!?" :eek:

MCronin
12-13-2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Neil
The game never got officially released. It's banned.

http://www.js-productions.com/thrillkill/images/tk02.jpg

This game was pretty sick, like Manhunt it was nothing but a murder simulator, It wasn't just gore and violence either, the characters could do things like urinate on each other. The game was never banned, what happened was Virgin interactive was producing it, then Virgin was shut down and sold off to EA. EA decided this was not the sort of game they wanted in their library and shelved it permanently. The game was a piece of junk, it had no redeeming value what-so-ever.

I hardly see how it is the game developer's fault in this case. If parents and retailers can keep kids from EASILY getting access to porn and liquor, they should be able to do the same with a game intended for an adult audience.

If anything, I think most parents dont care, and it's just a few loud mouths making all of the ruckus.

The difference is Porn and Liquor are regulated by Federal and Local governemnts. There is no law regarding how these games can be marketed and who they can be sold to; just a meaningless self imposed by the industry ratings system, that game companies are in no way obligated to. Rockstar is the one company in the industry that proves with every game they release that they have no regard for their own social responsibility, and will do whatever it takes to turn a buck. I don't understand why anyone bothers defending them. If they get sued and lose 250 million dollars, I can't say it won't be deserved on some karmic level.

I've said this before, I don't think the government should ban these games, but they clealrly need to start placing restrictions on their sale and marketing as the retailers and producers are doing a piss poor job of regulating themselves. Just last week my 10 year old nephew got a flyer in the mail addressed to him advertising the GTA Platinum Pack for Xbox. A kid shouldn't be able to walk into Toys R Us or Wlamart or Blockbuster and see this game sitting on the shelf staring him in the face, and he certainly shouldn't be getting solicitations for these games through the mail from the publishers.

Neil
12-13-2003, 08:13 PM
Well by banned, i meant that EA banned it from going any further. People who have it on ebay, get taken off, and people who have websites get shut down.

recklessronin
12-13-2003, 08:34 PM
Sorry.. I just think banning anything is wrong. Even though personally Manhunt isn't a game that I would get, it's wrong to ban it. Besides, though the content may be sick to some, it's a much better alternative than doing it real life. I can imagine if I had a rough day a game of Manhunt would be quite nice :thumbsup:

froggyplat
12-13-2003, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by chadtheartist
Prostitution is a violent sexual act. It involoves predators who use money to get their jollies, basically dehumanizing the "prostitute". So to me, it's a violent act.

No, rape is a violent sexual act.....seems to me that prostitutes are willing to take sex for money. That's not violence...it's commerce.

If Rockstar had the main character raping a prostitute or any other person in GTA then I would agree with you. But, as it is (to those of us who have actually played the game) it's all very cheeky...it's satire.

PhilOsirus
12-13-2003, 10:11 PM
I am asking for videogames companies to send a message directly to the government and ask them to enforce the rating system or make one of their own. I didn't ask anyone to ban games. But in the end, makers of games like Thrill Kill deserve to be kicked in the groins, hard. They are insulting the video game scene. Give me Soul Calibur or Virtua Fighter, not a game where you can choke someone to death or piss on their heads. If you like video games so much you would try to protect the scene from such crap. Other companies will suffer because of junk like this.

Edit: And no I have not played Manhunt but read ample reviews from video game websites to know I would hate it.

alphatron
12-13-2003, 10:31 PM
I've never seen so many pro-censorship artists in one place .

jipe
12-13-2003, 11:48 PM
I've never seen so many pro-censorship artists in one place .
Or maybe the minority is the most vocal - you know, the whole "silent majority" thing. While I probably wouldn't play Manhunt, I see nothing wrong with the game itself. If adults want to buy it and play it, they should be able to. I certainly wouldn't let any children play it, or even watch someone play it, but a mature adult who can distinguish perfectly well from reality and fantasy should have the right to buy and play the game if he wants to.

rotaryman
12-14-2003, 12:44 AM
Alright I figure I might as well throw my two cents in. I have to admit I never played Manhunt nor have I seen much about the game. But from what people are saying on this thread, I don't think I'd want to. With that being said I still don't approve of the idea of banning or censorship of such things, nor do I believe in having it federally regulated. But some form of control must be attained. Yes its not a game for kids and kids should not play it, but no it should not be censored. its bad enough that 40 years worth of civil liberties went down the toliet in the past 4 years here in the states because we've too glued to the tv watching us blow up other countries. Now you want to take away even more liberties??? WTF? I'm 24 years old and I grew up on games, sure I liked playing games with cute and fuzzy characters, not to mention fat itailian plumbers, but hell I am older now, my taste has changed but my thirst for games hasn't. So when ever someone makes an assumption that games are for kids, it really mifs the crap out of me! Not all games are for kids plain and simple! But I am not gonna sit here quietly because some parent got all pissed off because thier 49.95$ babysitter showed their child the difference when you shoot someone in the body as opposed to a head shot. I wouldn't mind at all if retailers kept the games behind counter and out of site so you have to aske for it. So long as my right to play such games is not removed.

As far as rockstar, to me, they are pulling a Marylin Manson. hell its in the name even, they do it for shock value, I am sure they intended all this publicity to happen and use it to drive their sales. A shallow tactic but what isn't in the world of free trade. I am a fan of the GTA series but I do think they are getting ahead of themselves. But what gets me even more is that Sony let them. I have a lot of friends that work on games, and I have learned that for the most part all the console based companies have certain guidlines to what is put in their games. Sony is by far the mosed laxed with their guidlines, so its odd that no one has pointed a finger at them yet because they have the final heresay in what gets published on their system.

well that ended up being to fat pennies
:D

swardson
12-14-2003, 12:58 AM
I wonder of all of the rockstar (GTA - Manhunt) supporters, how many have kids themselves. It would be interesting to see.

PhilOsirus
12-14-2003, 01:11 AM
Sony is no different than any other company. GTA is available now on the X-Box and so is Manhunt.

The gaming industry needs to demonstrate themselves that there is a need for an enforced rating system that prevents underage kids from getting products that have a rating that labels the game as not appropriate for them. If it doesn't come from companies they will remain a target in the future and labeled money-starved monsters.

DCHAD
12-14-2003, 01:13 AM
Will you people please take a step back and relax. This game is for adults. It is built around stealth like that of recent hits Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid. Is it's premise sick? Yes..yes it is. But so were the cult classic movies 10,000 maniacs and Bloodsucking Freaks! Is it for everyone? No. But the game is well done and the real issue here is enforcing the sales to adults only. It should be that simple.

If a kid gets his hands on this and then decides to go to school and murder 10 people is has everything to do with his upbringing and nothing to do with the games or movies he is exposed to. I am sick of this tired old BS about the material causing the problems in this world. If that's the case we might as well restructure how all the major media companies (CNN, FOX and all the other vultures) produce their content since they are kings of tastelessness.

The negative effect that people seem to think these games have has no foundation. You can take every incedent of mindless murder in this country and trace it back to a mish mash of neglectful ignorant parents or guardians screwing them up in one way or another. Let's start @ the parents and not the material that little maniacal Jimmy is somehow getting into his grubby little hands. What an adult does on his own free time while not hurting anyone is there own business even if it includes trying to stay alive in a 'Running Man' style video game for a few hours of their life. Let's get a grip people.

-DCHAD

Icarus
12-14-2003, 01:24 AM
Hmm.. in a real picky subject just as this, for me (in my opinion) i believe that these games, GTA/Manhunt only act out and play on normal everyday human behaviour, Please tell me you havent thought about killing someone?.. Maybe Watching an armoured Van pull up to a bank, Ever had the urge to ... kill?

Everyone had thought about this one time or another, and its only that...

Its human nature to want to kill anything and everything... get over it.

*edit*,
Originally posted by Array
These games are NOT designed for kids in mind. The IDSA gave GTA and Manhunt mature ratings. It's up to the retailers and parents to enforce these.
I agree
*/edit*

Array
12-14-2003, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
Sony is no different than any other company. GTA is available now on the X-Box and so is Manhunt.

The gaming industry needs to demonstrate themselves that there is a need for an enforced rating system that prevents underage kids from getting products that have a rating that labels the game as not appropriate for them. If it doesn't come from companies they will remain a target in the future and labeled money-starved monsters.

There is no Manhunt for Xbox. What else do you want the video game companies to do? There allready IS a ratings label on every game you buy, whether it is for a console or for a PC. You should be emailing department stores, not game companies.

I also think you should actually PLAY manhunt before you take such a vocal stance against it, and such a vocal stance for cencorship. This game sounds interesting to me, not because of the way it puts a focus on the aural sense. I play with synths when I'm not coding or learning about CG, and sound art interests me just as much as the visual arts.

P_T
12-14-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by jipe
Or maybe the minority is the most vocal - you know, the whole "silent majority" thing. While I probably wouldn't play Manhunt, I see nothing wrong with the game itself. If adults want to buy it and play it, they should be able to. I certainly wouldn't let any children play it, or even watch someone play it, but a mature adult who can distinguish perfectly well from reality and fantasy should have the right to buy and play the game if he wants to.

You and i and majority of people might be able to distinguish reality and fantasy but from the news revolving around GTA, there are obviously people who can't. If this game don't get banned, i guess we'll see wat effects this game has on those who can't and their possible victims. :shrug:

i just thought prevention is better than damage control later on.

Array
12-14-2003, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by P_T
You and i and majority of people might be able to distinguish reality and fantasy but from the news revolving around GTA, there are obviously people who can't. If this game don't get banned, i guess we'll see wat effects this game has on those who can't and their possible victims. :shrug:

i just thought prevention is better than damage control later on.

People who allegedly kill because of something they saw in a video game have much deeper issues to deal with than deciding which game they should or should not play. Chances are, if games are banned and censored, they'll find some other excuse.

froggyplat
12-14-2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by musicraker
I wonder of all of the rockstar (GTA - Manhunt) supporters, how many have kids themselves. It would be interesting to see.

i think support for the game (Manhunt) is weak....but, i think most feel they should be able to make decisions on their own regarding their personal entertainment.

PhilOsirus
12-14-2003, 02:11 AM
True Manhunt is not available on the XBox, I thought it was, but it's not because MS doesn't want to.

And yes I can take a vocal stance on the game even without having played it. If I can make the decision to buy a game after reading a few reviews on some video game websites, I can pass the same judgement over the content of a game based on the same reviews.

Regardless, the letters I did send to the companies was about asking for an enforced rating system, not ban. And I repeat it must come from them, not retailers or anyone else, because their image is at stake and it is a good way to defend it and avoid future problems.

At the same time I believe a game like Manhunt will bring much harm to the videogame industry, and as I gamer I wish to protect it. I own both GTA:VC and Tenchu, two violent games. But I will not sit by until games involving rapes appears. It seems that thanks to Rockstar's careless stance on the kind of products it can make such games are bound to soon appear. How difficult will it then be for the avarage company to release any game containing a justifiable presence of violence/blood?

I prefer that such games don't come into existence and leave the video game industry in good health instead.

Array
12-14-2003, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
True Manhunt is not available on the XBox, I thought it was, but it's not because MS doesn't want to.

And yes I can take a vocal stance on the game even without having played it. If I can make the decision to buy a game after reading a few reviews on some video game websites, I can pass the same judgement over the content of a game based on the same reviews.

Regardless, the letters I did send to the companies was about asking for an enforced rating system, not ban. And I repeat it must come from them, not retailers or anyone else, because their image is at stake and it is a good way to defend it and avoid future problems.

At the same time I believe a game like Manhunt will bring much harm to the videogame industry, and as I gamer I wish to protect it. I own both GTA:VC and Tenchu, two violent games. But I will not sit by until games involving rapes appears. It seems that thanks to Rockstar's careless stance on the kind of products it can make such games are bound to soon appear. How difficult will it then be for the avarage company to release any game containing a justifiable presence of violence/blood?

I prefer that such games don't come into existence and leave the video game industry in good health instead.

No....you are making a choice not to play the game based on the negative stigma given to it by the popular media (psssst! the same people who glamorize trash like Britney Speares!), not based on what IGN or Gamespot say.

You missed the rape bandwagon a while ago too. 'Custard's Last Stand' for the atari 2600 featured a pixelated Colonal Custard raping native American women.

Furthermore, you never came up with a good way for the video game industry to enforce it's own ratings system. I'm going to sound a lot like repeating myself here, but what more can they possibly do on their end? They allready put lables on their games. RETAILERS have to enforce them, much like movie theaters wont let you into a movie unless you are of appropriate age. I dont see any representatives from Sony pictures checking ID's at the theater, and I dont expect to see any at the video game store either.

froggyplat
12-14-2003, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by Array
I dont see any representatives from Sony pictures checking ID's at the theater, and I dont expect to see any at the video game store either.

my thoughts exactly. the ratings system can only be enforced through stiff fines to retailers who sell inappropriate product to minors. if the punishment far exceeds the potential profit then retailers will abide. the market will decide whether or not games like these continue to get published, not some bureaucrat. if people don't buy them, no one will make them. if they do buy them, well....

innervision961
12-14-2003, 03:46 AM
Well i'll jump in here and put in my 2 cents. Me and a friend rented manhunt last weekend, we played it for about 30 minutes and were so bored with it i could have pulled my hair out. The game is disturbing, and the premise is really lame. They did build a story around violence. I'm not pro censorship, but this game shouldn't be on shelves, simply because it sucks. Its clearly a mindless killer simulator, and i've never actually wanted to play a killer simulator. GTA is a fun game, and is comical in its approach at violence really, manhunt however takes it self to seriously... This game really isn't worth all the fuss, but after 30 minutes i popped in ratchet and clank, and played it all night :) ....

Chadtheartist? are you the same chadtheartist i know? (its me logan :beer: ) hows it going man?

PhilOsirus
12-14-2003, 05:08 AM
No....you are making a choice not to play the game based on the negative stigma given to it by the popular media

I think I know which reviews I read. The game was released last month, I had already red plenty of previews and news stories on IGN and Gamespot and finally their reviews of it. It is based on THOSE articles that I made my decision, not what the media has said or else I wouldn't own a copy of GTA:VC.

And again I repeat, just to make sure I am clear: I am asking game companies to send a unified statement to the government asking for the government to make sure the rating system is enforced and no minors are allowed to play games intended for a M-rated audience. Right now even with the current rating system in place I can sell an M-rated game to a 7 years old. And I repeat that it is the gaming-related companies that must ask the government to get involved and enforce it in order to let the general public know that they respect consumers, gamers, and their own industry.

When that will happen the gaming industry will no longer be allowed to suffer a different treatment than that of the movie industry, and at the same time it will prevent companies from using a hole in the system to create games that generate their sales based on irresponsible content such as the one found in Manhunt, unlike the one found in GTA (for the reasons mentioned in my other posts). It is for the best of the gaming community. I like games like Medal of Honor, Tenchu, Hitman, etc, but there must be a certain level of balance in them between their possible violent content and the premise of the game itself.

That way I won't have to wait for inspections to be done before I can enjoy playing my censored Super Mario Brothers 7, Final Fantasy XIV, or King of Fighters (which probably would not have been censored if it wasn't for all the media attention brought toward the violent content of recent games.

Emmortal1
12-14-2003, 06:01 AM
I'm sorry, but banning a game is just wrong. I don't necesarily believe that Manhunt is a great game, don't get me wrong, I do however get chills up and down my spine when I read posts such as these that cry out for government intervention and banning and censorship. It's a pretty simple solution, if you don't like it then don't buy it. Don't let your children play it, do your job and be a parent, stop putting the responsibility off on someone else.

I think they have every right to make whatever games they so choose, does that mean I agree with it? No. Games are not the cause of problems with kids today, crap Parenting is. And you aren't going to say otherwise because that's a straight, hard fact. It's parents responsibility to not let their kids get ahold of a game like this, not the government.

And I'm sorry, but the government will never completely stop kids from getting ahold of this game. Look at the drug situation, it's a lot easier for kids to buy illegal drugs than it is for them to buy cigarrettes. That's pathetic. So all they've done is stopped them from getting hooked on one so called "legal" drug and just point them in the direction of getting hooked on illegal substances. Pretty ironic if you ask me.

If the US bans this game, then we're just one step closer to becoming a totalitarian state. Next thing you know, we won't be able to express our opinions on message boards...

Emmortal

NickDW
12-14-2003, 08:32 AM
I'm stradling the line on this one.

I admit Manhunt is allot about the violence in the game. And while you are killing other people that are members of different violent gangs who are willingly participating, it still doesn't send a good message out about games. I mean we are already under the magnifying glass because so many idiots decided to commit violent acts and blame it on games so I don't think is helping the gamers cause any.

BUT (there's always a but isn't there ;) ), the game does have a storlyine that drives the violence and not vice versa.
The easiest way I can think to describe the games story is by comparing it to the movie "(The) Running Man" with Arnold Schwazennager (sp?), where as he is put through a "Maze" so to speak where he is being hunted by several different "hunters as it were and to keep his life he has to make it through alive, or in other words Kill or be killed. Manhunt is based on the same idea, Survival.

I can think of some other games that fit into the storyline wrapped in Violence category allot better.

Soldier of Fortune (I and II) anyone? This game IS all about the different things you can do to your enemy and different places he can take damage.

Kingpin - This one is about what again? Oh yeah killing people and getting a gang together, that's right.

I won't even get into the subject of the different "Violence Simulators", as someone called it earlier, that are games like Street Fighter, Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat (which happens to be one of the best fis into the disscussion).

Like I mentioned above though, this is deffinately going to hurt Gamers and the Gameing industry as a whole. It will really put us down more when somebody suffocates a victim with a plastic bag, not because they played Manhunt (or any video games for that matter) but because that was the closest thing they could find.
I also agree that Rockstar should have been more responsible with the idea behind this game for the reasons I mentioned.

Overall I don't think the game is any worse than previous titles that have been released on any platform that no one mad the slightest fuss about, or some of the crap they're putting on TV and calling entertainment or "Reality TV".

As for the govenment policing video game ratings I think that is a very bad idea, I do think game companies (not just Rockstar) should take more responsiblility with what they release and should take more of a role in getting the appropriate rating applied.


Nick

P.S. Sorry for the long rant....

powerwave3d
12-14-2003, 01:44 PM
I'm totally against censorship.
To sit there and say music or a game is going to make someone carry out some violent act is a cop out. And I'm with Array on they have much deeper issues to begin with. This entire world needs to start raising their children rather than having the TV or some underpaid day care worker.
Face it people, there are weak-minded people out there that will maybe fall into a false sense of reality trap and do something bad. YOU will NEVER stop that. Are you going to ban all religious services next? Cause more people have done horrorible acts in the name of religion than some game ever.

PhilOsirus
12-14-2003, 03:27 PM
But what you all don't seem to understand is that there IS en enforced rating system related to movies, hence the -same- must be applied to video games in order to protect this industry. It has nothing to do with censorship, nothing to do with banning games.

And I keep hearing the same double standar. "Parents are the ones responsible" and when they are we hear "It's pointless to prevent a kid from playing X game cause forbiding him will only make him want to play it even more!".

You might want to allow kids the right to rent pornographic movies, but I think there has to be a line at some point as it has been established in various other entertainment forms.

Dennik
12-14-2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Tyrinid
... Please tell me you havent thought about killing someone?.. Maybe Watching an armoured Van pull up to a bank, Ever had the urge to ... kill?

Everyone had thought about this one time or another, and its only that...

Its human nature to want to kill anything and everything... get over it.


:surprised :surprised :surprised
If thats human nature, then i'm an alien monkey.

eliseu gouveia
12-14-2003, 07:52 PM
Make that two.


<- Certified alien monkey

AlanW
12-14-2003, 08:02 PM
I just think people should play the game before they assume the worst. It never hurts to try things first hand before relying on second hand information. (ie, articles)

The game isn't for kids, but you know some are always going to go to the lengths necessary to obtain it, and honestly I don't think video games contribute to criminal activity. Careless parents are to blame.

SaucyJack
12-15-2003, 12:27 PM
For chirsts sake its a video game! You sound like the people who tried to ban Marilyn Manson for corrupting childrens minds. If you don't like it don't buy it.

I don't need a bunch of left wingers dictating what games i should and should not play. I applaud Rockstar for pushing the boundaries of video games.

And Marilyn Manson sucks but he has just as much right to put out music as anyone else.

:thumbsup:

P_T
12-15-2003, 12:53 PM
bunching people into "bad parents" is not really fair either... wat about low-middle class single parents who have to works their ass off make ends meet and not having much time with their kids? it's not like they have much choice...

besides... just like everything else, free choice, free speech etc need some moderation, that's why recreation drugs like weed is still illegal (at least in majority of places) despite a lot of protest and petition to make it legal.

I applaud Rockstar for pushing the boundaries of video games.

wat next? racist game? technically they have the right to make games about it too considering racist groups do exists and coz of that free speech thing, they have been allowed to spread their hate message.

just because u can make a game about something, doesn't always mean it should be made.

chadtheartist
12-15-2003, 01:03 PM
just because u can make a game about something, doesn't always mean it should be made.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :D

Chadtheartist? are you the same chadtheartist i know? (its me logan ) hows it going man?

Yup, that's me. Nice to see you around! I'm doing pretty good. How about you?

papillon
12-15-2003, 02:20 PM
honestly, all this seems absurd to me. its a videogame rated 18. i agree that its not a product for childs, but thats whats the ratings are for. a porn film is rated 18 too, so if a parent buys one for his children, he is completely stupid and must be prosecuted.
but why a gobernment or any other can stop me, and adult, from playing a game? im stupid or what? i dont have a brain to know what is good or bad? im i going to go out and kill everyone i see after playing this game? cmon...
its all about censorship, and i dont like censorship.
and about the "violence", i see much more violence in 5 minutes of daily tv than in any other place, and with one diference: many of the violence you see in tv is REAL. a videogame is FICTION. how about those tv programs whose only argument is to show accidents and tragedies? (its nice to see real dramas on tv when youre not the star, uh?) oh, but i forgot that these are "entertainment".
this is crazy, all the day listening things like "we live in democracy, we have freedom...". and we believe it. HAHAHA. the trick is not to say the magic word: CENSORSHIP. and we all live happy.
anyway im not going to play this game, its not the kind of game i like, but who am i to say anyother not to play it? respect to be respected...

sorry for my english, i hope ive explain my point of view. :)

PhilOsirus
12-15-2003, 04:40 PM
But there is a law that prevents the sale/rent of 18+ movies to 18-! Not with videogames! Why shouldn't it be the same for games? It would leaves the gaming industry wide open for attacks. There's no banning involved, so let's not bring that part up again. It's about having a unified enforcement of the rating system in all forms of entertainement which will protect the video game industry and at least help prevent kids from getting games they are not supposed to as easilly as they would without that enforcement.

FloydBishop
12-15-2003, 04:56 PM
How is a video game's content any worse or different than a song lyric, book, television show, or feature film?

Was anyone calling for the head of the screen writer of the movie "Seven"? There was some pretty screwed up stuff in that movie. How about TV shows like Law & Order SVU? Should those people be held to a different standard because it's a tv show?

If you do not like the games, do not buy them, and do not let your children play them. Very simple. I don't need a panel of people I don't know telling me what's in my best interest.

That being said, this isn't the type of game I would play I don't think. However, Rockstar has all the right in the world to make a game like this and market it to the appropriate age groups as outlined by the ESRB. New Zeland can do whatever they want as well. If this game was banned in the USA, I'd have a much longer post.

mattregnier
12-15-2003, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"


This is much like the Japanese movie where a bunch of school kids are brought to an island and are forced to take part of a game where all must kill each other or be killed.


ROCK someone else who LOVES BATTLE ROYALE!! :)

ppself
12-15-2003, 06:22 PM
how come everybody complains about these "violent games" its plain and simple, if your child is under the age of 18 then dont buy the game for them in christmas or whenever. i blame the parents for this isanity towards games because thier the ones buying 12 year olds a rated M video game thinking it will be all inocent like and cheerful to play. it seems like the parents are the kids now and kids are the parents making the rules. i would sue the parents or discipline them for letting the games into thier childs bedroom and on thier console or PC.

elam
12-15-2003, 06:29 PM
But what you all don't seem to understand is that there IS en enforced rating system related to movies,
Maybe in Canada.

In America, there are no federal laws pertaining to minors and movie ratings.
A six year old can go to a rated R movie if the theatre will let them in. It's all voluntary. http://www.mpaa.org/movieratings/about/index.htm

So, it's the same as games.

Making the ratings system laws would:

Be unenforcable.
Cost lots of money.
Piss a lot of parents off if they got jail time or a ticket.


Bottom line is, it's the parents responsibility.

wat about low-middle class single parents who have to works their ass off make ends meet and not having much time with their kids? it's not like they have much choice...

All parents have choices. They can choose to have kids, and if so, choose to be responsible for them.

Furthermore, there's no conclusive link between violent content and real-life violence. People who do commit violence after exposure to violent content are almost always not stable to begin with.

And ya'll need to stop with your moral relativism. How you can justify something like GTA or Medal of Honor and then want to *ban* Manhunt smacks me as hypocritcal. .

Why don't we all play Mario Kart and the worlds problems will go away. :thumbsup: You're all so smart.

t-man152
12-15-2003, 07:33 PM
I think banning is stupid.

personally I need my dayly share of killing and it's better it be in a pixelated world than in real life. if you say that this game encourages killing you can say that racing games encourage speeding wich has a much higher death toll than brutal murders.

It seems that a bunch of people are out to destroy any video game that's any fun (usually the more people you kill the funner it is). those people probably were playing dungeons and dragons as kids and since they could not finish the game they decided to spend the rest of their lives trying to destry video games.

t-man152
12-15-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by P_T
bunching people into "bad parents" is not really fair either... wat about low-middle class single parents who have to works their ass off make ends meet and not having much time with their kids? it's not like they have much choice...

besides... just like everything else, free choice, free speech etc need some moderation, that's why recreation drugs like weed is still illegal (at least in majority of places) despite a lot of protest and petition to make it legal.



wat next? racist game? technically they have the right to make games about it too considering racist groups do exists and coz of that free speech thing, they have been allowed to spread their hate message.

just because u can make a game about something, doesn't always mean it should be made.

actually you can have freedom of speech but you can't say anything ment to desrupt a crowd (such as messages of hate.)

sure they can try to make a racist video game but whoever publishes it is basically comiting managerial suicide. whatever company releases that game will not only get bad publicity for the rest of that companys short life, they will also get sued for many different reasons and whoever in that company decided to greenlight the project will be lucky if he can find a job at MCdonalds.

pseudoE
12-15-2003, 10:07 PM
Parents, Game Companies, Retailers?

maybe what drives the desire to limit access and to censure content is the fear of a general "desensitization" to the generally accepted moral standards of a society.

Not to get too nutzo here, but I for one like to believe that those around me in my community respect some loose guidelines of existence. This gives me comfort. Some guy stole my mail last night. Then he got into my car, took my wife's purse and my digital cam. (damn, I was going to get off the couch and bring them in.) I get the same uneasy feeling from that as I do when I hear people pushing off morality and respect onto others instead of taking some on themselves.

But I'm getting off track.

Simply: Don't censure, but show me SOMEHOW that you understand and respect the peaceful intentions of others in this world in your attempt to keep us skinbags entertained~


e.

t-man152
12-15-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by pseudoE
Parents, Game Companies, Retailers?

maybe what drives the desire to limit access and to censure content is the fear of a general "desensitization" to the generally accepted moral standards of a society.

Not to get too nutzo here, but I for one like to believe that those around me in my community respect some loose guidelines of existence. This gives me comfort. Some guy stole my mail last night. Then he got into my car, took my wife's purse and my digital cam. (damn, I was going to get off the couch and bring them in.) I get the same uneasy feeling from that as I do when I hear people pushing off morality and respect onto others instead of taking some on themselves.

But I'm getting off track.

Simply: Don't censure, but show me SOMEHOW that you understand and respect the peaceful intentions of others in this world in your attempt to keep us skinbags entertained~


e.

if you ever catch the person who did this ask that person if he or she did it because he played a video game. my guess is he will say no.

I agree with what you said. (take care of yourself. stop thinking that you have to dictate what I can and can't do in my life.)

pseudoE
12-15-2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by t-man152
if you ever catch the person who did this ask that person if he or she did it because he played a video game. my guess is he will say no.

I agree with what you said. (take care of yourself. stop thinking that you have to dictate what I can and can't do in my life.)

Who needs video games when you've got a sweet digicam???:cry:

NanoGator
12-15-2003, 10:54 PM
:rolleyes:

Lotsa people saying how I will or won't react. Yeesh.

eirenicon
12-15-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
This is much like the Japanese movie where a bunch of school kids are brought to an island and are forced to take part of a game where all must kill each other or be killed.

Of course, on the one hand Battle Royale has been critically acclaimed as a superb example of film-making. It has tons of violence involving minors, plenty of gratuous gore, but that's acceptable in the context of film. But a game? God forbid it pushes any kind of boundaries. You can't have murder in a game.

Funny, though, because I thought murder was already in plenty of games. Seems like just yesterday I was shooting Half-Life scientists in the head or bludgeoning their bodies with a crowbar. So Manhunt involves gruesome methods performed on bad dudes? Big deal, many games have violence that's perfectly acceptable because it's in a different context. The game's set in a war? Fine, go ahead and pump rounds into bystanders. You're a ninja? Oh, then it's historically correct to cut people's throats while they sleep.

I backstabbed civilians all the time in Baldur's Gate, often causing them to explode in a shower of flesh and blood, but that's ok, because it's just a nice fantasy roleplaying game. The game didn't focus on killing innocent people in brutal ways, so it's acceptable.

There's a clear double standard here. On one hand, we can't have a "murder simulator", but on the other, you can include as much murder as you want so long as it isn't the focus. Just doesn't make sense to me.

MCronin
12-16-2003, 12:34 AM
WARNING: This post contains offensive content only because it is required in discussing the contents of this game




I think if you want to defend the game you really need to play it. I
have and here's what I think.

Content aside the game is total crap, there's really nothing to it except repetitvely stalking gang members so you can collect better weapons for more gruesome deaths. The is no skill involved in even fighting in this game. You've got two strikes, hard and not so hard, so if you do get into a fight it's a total button masher. Fighting is not the focus of the game though, and you actually don't want to get into fights. The core of the game is just sneak up behind people, hold a button down as long as you can, let it go, and watch a gruesome death scene. That's it, it'not even fun. It's a gorey Metal Gear VR mission with no point other than killing guards.

Anyone who refers to this game as being for adults needs their head examined. There is nothing adult about this game.

What's wrong with the game besides not being fun... plenty. Violence, it's ridiculously violent. You can remove people's heads with piano wire or machettes, carry the heads around with you to use as a diversion, shoot people with nail guns, splatter their brains all over the walls with baseball bats, tear out their larynx with the claw end of a crowbar... and the worst part of it, the guy controling your fate eggs you on the whole time. He gets mad if you take too long to get a kill, orders you to "Slaughter that pussy!", and says thing like "You're getting me really hot!" or "I'm all Flustered!" with a hint of sexual gratification after a particularly "good" kill. You cannot compare this game to any game that has come before it, or even horror movies for that matter. It's the equivalent of an interactive Gheto Boys' song that goes on for hours.


The other thing is the cussing. I'm no prude, but there's plenty of cussing in this game everywhere you look and in the dialogue and it's very childish and insulting. They've taken every opportunity to work expletives into the game to the point where there's guys actually walking around with the word "****er" written on their jacket "**** off" painted on their torso and "Shit stinks!" spray painted on the wall. The game is also full of racism. Your character is of an undertiminable race (he looks like Vin Disel a bit) and throughout the "White Trash" levels of the game, your "opponents" make racial comments about "mutts" and "half breeds", accusing immigrants of stealing jobs from the white man and "forcing their mongrel seed" into white women. I'm pretty sure one of the gang members refered to my character as a "nigger" but it was hard to understand what he was saying.

The ESRB completely failed on this game, it should have been an "AO".

This game is a total piece of crap on every level. Rockstar needs to be condemmed by everyone, including the game industry at large, for releasing it. They gave the entire industry a black eye. Just wait until after Christmas when thousands of kids get this piece of crap under their tree. Parents are going to be livid. I can guarantee there is going to be government regulation in the game's industry in the near future and you all have the socially irresponsible idiots at Rockstar games to thank.

P_T
12-16-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by t-man152
actually you can have freedom of speech but you can't say anything ment to desrupt a crowd (such as messages of hate.)

sure they can try to make a racist video game but whoever publishes it is basically comiting managerial suicide. whatever company releases that game will not only get bad publicity for the rest of that companys short life, they will also get sued for many different reasons and whoever in that company decided to greenlight the project will be lucky if he can find a job at MCdonalds.

well from MCronin post, it seems that some people from Rockstar need to start looking for jobs. ;)

eirenicon
12-16-2003, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by MCronin
They gave the entire industry a black eye. Just wait until after Christmas when thousands of kids get this piece of crap under their tree. Parents are going to be livid. I can guarantee there is going to be government regulation in the game's industry in the near future and you all have the socially irresponsible idiots at Rockstar games to thank.

You won't have Rockstar to blame, but the idiots who blow things like this way out of proportion. Manhunt was hardly hyped, I didn't hear about it until a day or two before it was released (and I'm pretty up on video games). If it wasn't for censors and media and "scientists" blathering on about how corrupting and evil Manhunt is, it would have been a low-profile release with a niche audience. Instead, everyone is going to ask for the game they read about in the paper or saw in the news.

All this outrage does is sell more copies of Manhunt.

Dirtystimpy
12-16-2003, 02:18 AM
"As far as rockstar, to me, they are pulling a Marylin Manson"

"You won't have Rockstar to blame, but the idiots who blow things like this way out of proportion. Manhunt was hardly hyped, I didn't hear about it until a day or two before it was released (and I'm pretty up on video games). If it wasn't for censors and media and "scientists" blathering on about how corrupting and evil Manhunt is, it would have been a low-profile release with a niche audience. Instead, everyone is going to ask for the game they read about in the paper or saw in the news."


This is exactly what I think. bad press is good press. WE have a ratings systems in effect, no need to talk about censorship. If people would learn to ignore crap, then people would realize theres no money in crap.

In my opinion, its no different then the media attacking Manson and Emimnem, there have been tons of worse artists or "shock artists" and they fade away, but when you put their picture on the cover of the newspaper everyday, that just makes them bigger and they make more money.

I guess my point is I saw reviews of manhunt on game sites, read them, it didn't interest me. Then, I see this post w/ 4 plus pages so I wanted to see what the attention is about.

elam
12-16-2003, 03:01 AM
I can guarantee there is going to be government regulation in the game's industry in the near future and you all have the socially irresponsible idiots at Rockstar games to thank.

You can't guarantee anything, other than that you were disgusted by the game.

Music and movies are all self regulated and at some point have had controversies similar to this, for content just as heinous.
It's all been done, man.

Your offended by cussing? Are you serious?

I think if you want to defend the game you really need to play it.

lmao. You heard such bad things about the game you had to try it.
Congrates McCronin, you've proved the theory that bad press generates business.

SheepFactory
12-16-2003, 03:36 AM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2003/20031215l.gif

eirenicon
12-16-2003, 03:50 AM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/1999/19990414l.jpg
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2002/20021015l.gif
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/1999/19991213l.jpg

digital_rhino
12-16-2003, 06:35 PM
I let my 10 yr old son play Manhunt all the time. His favorite move is the plastic bag over the head. So what its just a game, and I dont think it affects him negatively at all. Course I caught him trying to put the cat in our microwave the other day...but I dont think thats in any way related to the game.:surprised

I'm just kidding guys..geesh. I dont even have any kids.

The fact is, violence is abundant in our lives. Does that make it ok? Of course not. Are we "desensitized"? Sure we are. To a degree we have to be. If we weren't we wouldn't want to make it through the day. I for one would be a blubbering idiot when I watch the news, if I werent desensitized to a level.

You can't avoid violence. You can't shelter your kids from it either. But you can teach them right from wrong, and avoid promoting their use of things like Manhunt. In reality it really is up to the parents. The game companies are a money machine like any other industry. They will produce what will sell. Those parents who get angry with the retailers for not selling their kids the game, are the irresponsible parents that will do anything to keep their whinny kids from bitching.

Anyone who is old enough, and has a desire to play a game like Manhunt, have every right to.

Banning any game is not the answer. Personal responsability is.
:thumbsup:

NanoGator
12-16-2003, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by digital_rhino
Banning any game is not the answer. Personal responsability is.
:thumbsup:

I have mixed feelings here. When I looked at it in the light of "they're banning it because parents are generally not doing enough supervision", I don't get so uptight about it. Then again, from what I understand, it's for the Playstation 2. If it were for PC, I'd be mad as hell.

I'm not a fan of banning video games. I haven't been presented with any proof that they're causing kids to misbehave. If kids actually had to be violent to play these games, as opposed to calmly pressing buttons, I *might* actually start to be a little concerned. Frankly, though, I think sports encourage more violence than video games. (We recently had a massive fight after a football game at a local highschool, just so you understand where I'm coming from.)

KingMob
12-16-2003, 07:00 PM
I havent played the game so I dont know the context of the violence.

that being said, I basically think I would not ever want to play the game from what i read...doesnt sound fun to me. In GTA you feel you have a reason to be doing this stuff (most of it) the Actual bad stuff is PLAYER CHOICE (not all of it tho)

Anyways, back to Manhunt. While I have no desire to play it..and really thik that letting kids play it sounds bad, I also dont think any government should censor it.

I honestly think someones comment about being 21 for certain games..or at least 18 and enforcing it as oen would any liquor or porn, would be a great thing.

The other problem is just reading that NZ banned it makes me want to check it out and see what the fuss is about...I can only imagine a 12 year old kid hearing this.... I bet rockstar put them up to it., the game will sell like hot cakes!

(joking about rockstar putting them up to it btw)

PhilOsirus
12-17-2003, 12:55 AM
You won't have Rockstar to blame, but the idiots who blow things like this way out of proportion.

Well THAT will be extremely productive won't it? And I suppose YOU will do something about it afterward in order to remove the regulations? You know what I think? I think you won't, and you'll just complain about the regulations with "parents are the ones responsible" and "if you prevent kids from playing the games they'll want it even more!".

Go and tell the avarage single-mother to be more responsible and simply not allow her kid to get his hands on porn, alcohol, drugs, cigarettes and extremely violent videogames. Oh wait, I heard you say they can get their hands on drugs, alcohol, cigarettes and porn anyway! So the solution is? Deregulate? Make everything legal?

How about THIS! Do as we do here in Canada (at least it is this way in Montreal movie theaters): If the game is rated 18+, they don't allow you in if you you are not 18+! It simply requires the retailers to be vigilent in the same way that vendors must be when a young person asks for cigarettes or wants to buy alcohol. Canada should apply this very law to games as well since it does with movies.

Unless you want everything to be legal and up to the responsible citizens that I am sure you all are, support this law in order to protect the videogame industry and prevent companies like Rockstar from using a wrong opportunity to make a lot of money, so that next time they may actually create good games because you want to know what? According to GameFAQS Manhunt is already off the charts.

GameFAQS Top 10 viewed FAQS is the best way to know what games are the most played on consoles as long as the game as a good deal of unlockable features and such. GTA:VC is still in the top 10 since its release, Manhunt is not even there anymore. I would like to see a sales chart for it as well. I bet all the sales were made in the first two weeks and since then it must have been a downhill spiral, a lot like Rockstar's State of Emergency. It just demonstrates where all the money went when they made this games.

t-man152
12-17-2003, 01:51 AM
guys you don't need video games to take out your violence

its much funner in real life. and with all the money im saving with all those games the government won't let me play I can buy real guns and real amunition. and one thing I couldnt kill in the gta series that I can in real life are kids. thats super hey guys want to join me in a game of counter-strike. I was thinking of a nice big map lets say JFK airport and we only get 1 life. J/k

my point is out of 50 kids who freak out and want to shoot up their school 49 don't go through with it because they have video games to take out all their hate and all the crap they go through every day. if you take away this escape from them well they'r either going to find a new escape (gangs, drugs, ect) or their going to shoot up their school.

in fact for a little bit of info allot of people blamed the Columbine incident on Marilyn Manson. Why did they not blame it on video games. I will tell you why, because the kids who did those acts didn't play video games. :rolleyes: hmmm I wonder what would have happened if they had shot over 900 rounds of amunition in Liberty City (gta 3) instead of shooting 900 rounds of amunition in columbine high school ( real world)

now im not saying that video games would have stoped those boys from doing what they did but maybe just maybe it could have releived the anger and there might have been s chance that it might have stoped them.

in my eyes video games are do more good than bad.

eirenicon
12-17-2003, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
How about THIS! Do as we do here in Canada (at least it is this way in Montreal movie theaters): If the game is rated 18+, they don't allow you in if you you are not 18+! It simply requires the retailers to be vigilent in the same way that vendors must be when a young person asks for cigarettes or wants to buy alcohol. Canada should apply this very law to games as well since it does with movies.

I agree, that is precisely what should be done. Here in Ontario you must also be a certain age to see certain movies - 13 for PG-13 17 for NC-17, 18 for R. Aren't old enough, you don't see it. Games need to adopt the same system as movies, I think - a rating system parents are familiar with.

Splashing headlines over the news about censoring and violence and games isn't going to help. It'll just drum up more publicity for the game designers. What will help is serious laws that control who gets these games. Sure, the law will always be broken and games will be bootlegged - but banning it will not change that. Lay down some laws to control mature content and you won't have to worry about the media picking up a censorship case and running amok with it.

Keiyentai
12-17-2003, 07:09 AM
:rolleyes: ......my god.....this is making me laugh and giving me a head ache at the same time litterly. So ManHunt is a violent game. BIG FREAKEN DEAL. So was MOrtal Kombat when it came out. Oh wait it still is! But I dont see people complaining about Mortal Kombat: Deadly Allience now do I....no. So what if it has foul language. I got a game at Wal-Mart called Rock Manager no violence what so ever but has the most cussing I have heard in a game. Funny as hell though hehe. Personaly I wish I still had my PS2 just so I could play ManHunt. I want to get Thrill Kill to. Many ways t get it online. It all comes down to the parents really. If they want there child to play it fine if not then they might have a battle on there hands. just do what my mom did make sure the child knows the difference between reality and fiction before letting them play it. As soon as my son is old enough to play games I'm goign to let him play any game he wants. Wheather it be SimCity 4k or Halo. Hell Postal II even. He was watching me play that and was laughing up a storm when I knocked a guys head off. I thought it was cute :D Violence on games is fine with me :D I liek violent games. They help me get my anger out. THere is nothing better then having a pissy day and then go home and play GTA3 or Postal II or something. Seriously.

I want more violent games made. WE NEED MORE GAMES THAT ARENT CENSORED. :D ehehe and yes I know I am twisted and a bit messed up in the head. BUt I love it heheheh.

P_T
12-17-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Keiyentai
:rolleyes: ......my god.....this is making me laugh and giving me a head ache at the same time litterly. So ManHunt is a violent game. BIG FREAKEN DEAL...

u forgot to mention anything about the racism in the game as mentioned in MCronin's post... does racism in a game make u laugh as well? is it not a big deal to you?

MCronin
12-17-2003, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by P_T
u forgot to mention anything about the racism in the game as mentioned in MCronin's post... does racism in a game make u laugh as well? is it not a big deal to you?

Honestly the racism and the running commentary from the director, the implied sexual gratification after gruesome kills, and the blaspheming is what bothered me more than anything else about this game. If you've played this game and can honestly say you weren't the least bit bothered by it you really should be ashamed of yourself. It's pretty reprehensible and I think Rockstar, Take Two and this game aren't worthy of being defended. This game also calls into question the entire ratings system because by the ESRB's own guideline's this game should have deffinitely been an "AO".

Keep in mind, I'm not advocating banning this game or censoring any developer who wants to put out this sort of crap. If someone wants to make and sell a game like this or worse they should be able to in the United States of America. What I think, is that a game like this easily qualifies as obscene material by all Federal and State standards. There is no free speech protection for obscene material, and games like this should be regulated just like pornography because that's really what this is.

FYI to the people who have mentioned it, the game sold 75,000 copies in it's first 11 days of release.

PhilOsirus
12-17-2003, 05:57 PM
I was about to mention the sales numbers from the new report. 75 000 copies is very low, especially for such a "high-profile" game. And now the sales can only drop.

BTW how about this feature that has not been mentioned yet: In the game the character has an earplug device in which the Director makes his almost-sexual comments on your kills. If you have the PS2 headset (use for stealth tactical games like Soccom and probably some other games) you hear him speak directly in your hear. It's even mentioned as being a "feature". It's dumb.

Check the reviews on Amazon.com. 99% of those that liked the game only repeat how you can kill, how there is a lot of blood and gore, etc. Those that gave it bad reviews actually take into account the gameplay/story/graphics etc.

Will_Long
12-17-2003, 08:51 PM
I'm probably getting in this a little late but here it goes:

Unfortunately real life is not black and white (unlike video games which you usely can determin the good from the bad). So when you begin to say what is okay and what isn't with censorship you are forceing your morality on others, So all must take a firm stance with what they think are absolutes.

With games you have to look at the content and not how it is represented. Murder is Murder people and it doesn't matter if its satire or not. Anyone will be hard pressed to say why its okay to kill in GTA3 and not in Manhunt. That is why rateings are their to help inform parents whats in the game without them haveing to play it but these are guidlines not absolutes.

So when it comes to censorship it comes down to shall we censor all games with violent content or have free speach, there can be no middle ground or we will end in a never ending spiral of suppresion. First manhunt, then the next metal gear, then Soulcalibure then so on.

I'm not saying itll happen over night but we are opening the door.


Censorship is bad just use your mind and decide what you yourself want to see not what other people should.

I personally probably wont play this game but I dont mind if my neighbor does he just might have different taste. Ijust want to have the option to play any type of games that companies are brave enough to produce.

sorry about the length of the post and if this not clear enough.

(that ended up being more then 2 cents huh?)

elam
12-18-2003, 03:15 AM
What I think, is that a game like this easily qualifies as obscene material by all Federal and State standards.There is no free speech protection for obscene material, and games like this should be regulated just like pornography because that's really what this is. Pornography is only regulated on the airwaves. It's not in cable, print, or the Internet.

The US Supreme court recently struck down a law banning virtual child porn, because no actual children were involved and because it violates the First Amendment. (http://law.indiana.edu/fclj/pubs/v55/no1/mota.pdf).

Obsenity laws are determinded by a 3 prong test (http://courses.cs.vt.edu/~cs3604/lib/Censorship/3-prong-test.html). The Supreme Court defined a category of speech, called "obscenity," as unprotected by the Constitution. Speech is obscene if it is patently offensive, aimed at prurient interests, and without redeeming social value. 'Patently offensive' is determined by the local community. So in practical terms, there are no Federal obscene standards. What's obscene is Gary, Indiana may not be considered such in San Fransisco. That's how legalized pornography got it's start.

Might I suggest doing some research Mcronin, instead of spouting off your opinions as fact?

Keiyentai
12-18-2003, 03:16 AM
I dont like racism. I dont promote it. All I am saying is people are going over board cuase of "violent videogames" it's stupid. Plain and simple STUPID.

MCronin
12-18-2003, 04:48 AM
Elam, you really need to calm down. I never in this thread tried to pass my opinion as fact. I said "I think", as "in my opinion" that Manhunt easily qualifies as obscene material based on federal and state standards. The federal and state standards I was refering to are the three prong test you dug up. In all states, obscenity laws are virtually identical. The only place they differ is in the specifics of what "acts" are conisdered obscene. Sodomy depictions are illegal in one state, beatiality depictions in another. There are certain lines pornographers will not cross in the U.S. regardless of the local obscenity laws, and sexual gratification through murder is one of them. Virutally every local obscenity law has a clause about torture, mutilation and/or murder as it appeals to prurient intersets. This is a line that Rockstar has crossed.

As for regulation, there are already Federal (it is a RICO statute) and State laws the restrict the distribution of obscene materials, on the internet, in print, through the mail, on the airwaves (including cable and satellite) which is why every law abiding adult website has a disclaimer or some sort of age verification in place to cover themselves legally, is also why minors cannot walk into an adult bookstore and pick up whatever magazines or videos they want, and is also why in certain states it is illegal for cable and satellite providers to provide pay per view porn. The law you are refering to was struck down because it treated creaters of virtual child porn as if they had actually committed a crime where no real crime had been committed. It has nothing to do with what I am talking about here.

elric.whitewolf
12-18-2003, 05:25 PM
Here's how I see it, I am 27 and have been playing video games since the Atari 2600, I have had almost all the major consoles to come out between the 2600 and the PS2 and on every single platform there are games that are violent. Everyone who is saying that violence centered around a plot is ok but a plot centered around violence is wrong is full of poo. Look at it this way in Manhunt you run around killing other violent killers,(which most posts here have said is wrong and should have never been made) whereas in GTA III and GTA VC you can walk up to any grandma you see strolling down the street and beat her to death with a baseball bat to steal her money.(which the most of the same posters have said is ok and they enjoy playing.) Not to mention there have been plenty of times that I have said screw the missions and just ran around killing everyone I could find(at least until I was violently mowed down by the Army National Guard anyway). Plus of the 7 other people I hang with that own the game only three have actually tried to beat it, all the others use it as a stress reliever, in essence making it a killing simulator.

If in Canada there is a regional or federal law that imposes punishments to movie theatres that allow underage persons to watch R rated movies, then yes Canada should make the same law for video games sold in Canada. In the US there is no such law for movies so there should be no law for the games. Either way many of these underage kids get these games as presents anyway so even if there was a law it wouldn't matter. The only true way for these game rating to be enforced is for the parents to actually take part in the raising of their children, learn the rating system, and understand the reason a certain game recieved its rating. It comes down to the parents being responsible for the way that the children are being raised. Yes I do have a child, and as her parent I know that in the end I am responsible for what my child is exposed to, not the game makers, nor the 17 year old high school drop out behind the target counter, only me.

Just as other people have stated, the minute that we start allowing goverment regulations on personal entertainment is the minute we lose our ability to decide for ourselves what we enjoy and what we don't. And I personally enjoy violent video games.

Whew, sorry for the rant, just wanted to get my feelings out there, and now I am going to go rent Manhunter to see someone get suffocated in a bag:beer:

PhilOsirus
12-18-2003, 11:20 PM
Just as other people have stated, the minute that we start allowing goverment regulations on personal entertainment is the minute we lose our ability to decide for ourselves what we enjoy and what we don't. And I personally enjoy violent video games.

There really is a lot of gamers living in a dream world it seems. If you want to protect videogames you will want a system that prevent the avarage lawsuit from being directed at the gaming companies, hence something like the law we have in Canada. If you think all you have to do is convince all the parents to be "responsible" be my guest, but don't bother participating in a thread like this one the next time a game gets bad press and lawsuits. Might as well remove the -law- that prevents kids from buy porn, cigarettes and alcohol, because according to your logic parent's responsibility is enough.

Again I must ask some of you to put yourself in the shoes of famillies or single-parents/mothers that don't live in the best of conditions/neiborghoods and that need governmental help on many levels in order to help them with providing to their kids a proper environment to grow in.

KayosIII
12-19-2003, 11:39 AM
Hmmm I got to see that game about a week ago -- I will never look at a plastic bag the same.

After watching the first few levels of the game I can say - that yes the game is incredibly violent, I liked a lot of things that went into making the atmosphere of the game - There was fake video noise everywhere.

Quite frankly the game should have an R (restricted to 18 years and over) if video game ratings have any comparison to movie ratings. In Australia R rated games are banned so I am guessing It only just missed out. I think it would be the fair thing to allow sale of the game in Adult shops only...

Anyway I have better things to do with my time -- like stay up all night and chat on online forums :P

elric.whitewolf
12-19-2003, 01:40 PM
If you think all you have to do is convince all the parents to be "responsible" be my guest, but don't bother participating in a thread like this one the next time a game gets bad press and lawsuits.

So what you're saying here is that if someone doesn't agree with your veiws they should just keep thier mouth shut. Yeah that's kinda what I would expect from someone who wants to be told by his goverment as to what is acceptable and what isn't.

As far as the lawsuit agruement goes:

http://www.rcfp.org/news/2002/0815jamesv.html

http://www.iowastatedaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2003/11/14/3fb46554761fd

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=15820

If you look it up there are many other cases just like these that were thrown out the same way. The second URL states there has never been a case that the jury found the an entertainment producer responsible for actions of people who viewed the entertainment. So that line of reasoning holds no water.


Again I must ask some of you to put yourself in the shoes of famillies or single-parents/mothers that don't live in the best of conditions/neiborghoods and that need governmental help on many levels in order to help them with providing to their kids a proper environment to grow in.

So because some kid got knocked up in high school, dropped out and became a waitress she should be relieved of the responsiblity of raising her child properly? What I am saying is this, there ARE laws against underage purchasing of cigarettes, porn and booze, yet I know when I was growing up I had a stack of playboys, most of my friends chainsmoked, there were parties with alcohol almost every weekend, and today on any given day you can go to any mall and see kids smoking right out on the sidewalk. In the end it comes down to the parents raising their children in such a way that the kids can make thier own choices about what is right and what is wrong. And if some 16 year old punk goes out and wastes 10 of his classmates because he is bored, that burden of responsiblity resides only with the kid and his parents, not the violent games, not the violent movies and not the violent music. Had the kid been raised correctly he would have never thought that taking a human life is a game. That is my point. There will always be irresposible "bad" parents out there, and if a law that makes the sell of "M" games to minors illegal is put into effect, the kid just will go to his mom and whine about how Jimmy down the block has the new Kill Everyone game and she will go and buy it probably not even noticing the rating and even if she did she has been too busy with that work project to even know what it means. "Hmmm, rated M that must mean More Fun". For the rating system to work parents MUST learn the system and not give in when little Bobby cries about not being able to play a certain game.

powerwave3d
12-19-2003, 04:27 PM
"Again I must ask some of you to put yourself in the shoes of famillies or single-parents/mothers that don't live in the best of conditions/neiborghoods and that need governmental help on many levels in order to help them with providing to their kids a proper environment to grow in."

Well, if someone needs government assistance I want to know how they can justify spending $50 on a game and another $150-200 on the game system in the first place. But they do.
Basically what your saying is the majority should face censorship because of a minority of the people have made bad choices and now they are facing the consequences of those choices. Now, I'm aware that there are some people that just have been dealt a bad hand and need help, but they are not the majority.
I'm sorry, we can't change our ideals and principles to please the minority of the people. That's one of the biggest problems going on today. Governments are changing this and that to please a very small percentage of the population. To make it a "fair" world. That's the problem, this world needs Justice not "fairness."

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