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takkun
12-10-2003, 10:42 PM
After reading this thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108615) I'd like to put it to a vote to see where everyone stands on their personal UI design preference for 8.0. I've left out Matt's very cool LWx design since that was never meant for, and not feasible, for 8.0. Here's some links to help you review the different styles:

Lightwave Interface history from 1.0 to 7.5 (http://personal.southern.edu/~dascott/lwhistory/)

Early Lightwave 8 preview screenshots (digital fusion style) (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8241)

Lightwave 8.0 preview screenshots (http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/misc/lw8-002.php)

New December Lightwave 8.0 screenshots, same as above but with different colored buttons (http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14582)

EDIT: I'm a realist. This is about what you would like to see from what has been previously developed. "None of the above" and "Magical super futuristic redesign" is not an option. If you don't like the choices then please feel free to voice your opinion below, or if you want, I'll spare you. :shrug:

Remi
12-10-2003, 10:55 PM
Spare me:rolleyes:

takkun
12-10-2003, 11:02 PM
You are spared, my good man, now go! Go, I say! You are free!


(I like your new avatar!)

chrisWhite
12-10-2003, 11:18 PM
I love the fusion style interface, yes it's somewhat flashy, but I really like it, in fact I think it's better then even XSI or Houdini. My second choose would be the newest LW screen shots.

takkun
12-10-2003, 11:38 PM
Hmm, interesting. I didn't expect that so many people liked the fusion style. It's a bit too flashy for me.

wgreenlee1
12-10-2003, 11:47 PM
what?
no choice to make it look like maya?
no marking menus,attribute editor,hypergarph,outliner,component editor,attribute spead sheet,connection editor,visor,channel box,blind data editor,channel control,script editor,command shell,paint affects editor,hardware render buffer,shading group attribute editor,multilister,trax editor,dope sheet,blend shape editor,expression editor,device editor,set editor,deformer set editor,character sets,partitions,display layers,render layers,render flag editor,dynamic relationship editors,light centric editor,object centric editor,texture centric editor,uv-centric editor,fur-uv centic editor,custom shelves,custom panels,tear-off panels,custom colors for everything except the marking menus,camera book marking,render view/ipr with a custom sizable render area for both that you draw with your mouse,right click on everything so in fact you dont even need an interface to get to just about anything or any options with and without useing hotkeys?

well i guess i cant vote then.....

takkun
12-10-2003, 11:56 PM
greenlee, I left out anything that wouldn't be feasible for the soon to be released LW 8 (actually, now that I think about it, I should have left out the old school and the 5.x UI since those aren't feasible either)

cgman27
12-11-2003, 12:19 AM
Granted you didn't include other varieties, but how about a NONE OF THE ABOVE vote.

takkun
12-11-2003, 12:31 AM
cgman, a none of the above isn't very specific. I just assumed that people who didn't like the choices above would just post their ideas as greenlee has, like a write-in box on a ballot. Made sense to me, sorry, I don't make many polls. :shrug:

KillMe
12-11-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
what?
no choice to make it look like maya?
no marking menus,attribute editor,hypergarph,outliner,component editor,attribute spead sheet,connection editor,visor,channel box,blind data editor,channel control,script editor,command shell,paint affects editor,hardware render buffer,shading group attribute editor,multilister,trax editor,dope sheet,blend shape editor,expression editor,device editor,set editor,deformer set editor,character sets,partitions,display layers,render layers,render flag editor,dynamic relationship editors,light centric editor,object centric editor,texture centric editor,uv-centric editor,fur-uv centic editor,custom shelves,custom panels,tear-off panels,custom colors for everything except the marking menus,camera book marking,render view/ipr with a custom sizable render area for both that you draw with your mouse,right click on everything so in fact you dont even need an interface to get to just about anything or any options with and without useing hotkeys?

well i guess i cant vote then.....

all i can say is thank god - the maya UI is absoluly horrendous

jsut from that list it has far to many bloody ediotrs - spend 90% time moving from one to the next

and lightwave 7.5 has many of those thigns on your list jsut better intergrated so you dont need to open up and editor to use the functionalty in other cases it jsut plain has them and afew lightwave 8 is going to have

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by KillMe
all i can say is thank god - the maya UI is absoluly horrendous

jsut from that list it has far to many bloody ediotrs - spend 90% time moving from one to the next

and lightwave 7.5 has many of those thigns on your list jsut better intergrated so you dont need to open up and editor to use the functionalty in other cases it jsut plain has them and afew lightwave 8 is going to have


yeah really...all those editors.....whatta pain
just like the render engine...whatta pain all those options and panels...man what a pain it is...just too many things to do....whatta pain it is....to have to go through all that stuff....im worn out from all the options and editors....

CIM
12-11-2003, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by KillMe
all i can say is thank god - the maya UI is absoluly horrendous

jsut from that list it has far to many bloody ediotrs - spend 90% time moving from one to the next

and lightwave 7.5 has many of those thigns on your list jsut better intergrated so you dont need to open up and editor to use the functionalty in other cases it jsut plain has them and afew lightwave 8 is going to have

Not another person talking about a program they don't have a clue about. :rolleyes: It doesn't sound like you know much about LightWave either -- it's nothing but a bunch of panels, plugins, or scripts scattered around.

All programs use many panels, so what's your point? Maya just has alot because it has alot (more) of features.

KillMe
12-11-2003, 01:03 AM
might not wear you out but it sure as hell slows you down

and the options are there in lightwave you jsut dont have to spend 3 hours searching for them

KillMe
12-11-2003, 01:05 AM
i'm talking about simple stuff like wanting to bevel a face - tell em tahts is not done far mroe elegantly in lightwave than it is in maya

using that as an example but the prinple holds for alot of things - and frankly you must think so too since you yourself model in lightwave

while its maybe abit better for animation technically its not an artists program its a programers program

takkun
12-11-2003, 01:06 AM
please guys, no maya vs. lightwave mudslinging. :cry: I want everyone to get a chance to vote without a mod locking it.

KillMe
12-11-2003, 01:08 AM
i apoligise - but ;) wgreenlee1 started it :wise:

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by KillMe
might not wear you out but it sure as hell slows you down

and the options are there in lightwave you jsut dont have to spend 3 hours searching for them


no,it slows you down
how can it slow you down when everything is right there,the whole application is a spacebar click away?get whatcha need let go of the space bar and yer off and running again...i dont see how menus that come from nowhere can slow you down
the whole marking menu is set just like the interface except it hides when you dont need it
you hit it,bring out your editor,do your business,minimize it go and then when you need it again get it off the task bar or spacebar it and its up there so you can use it and then its gone again....
no,it slows you down

plus you make your own toolsets with out messing with the defaults
so you can have your modeling tools there in one bunch right where you need them,without messing with the defaults

takkun
12-11-2003, 01:20 AM
It would be nice if Newtek improved the ctrl-shift menu and made it more customizable, at least so that you could assign a different keyboard shortcut.

KillMe
12-11-2003, 01:27 AM
ok i could quit now but i feel obliged to continue
1. yeah you can do teh space bar doohickey, but thats not all teh functionality a key press away thats a keypress to bring up editors to bring up yet more ediots which in turn open more editors

maya requires an ediotr for everything and damn it jsut feels liek your doing too much work for small simple things

and if you like it so much you can do teh same thing basically in lightwave i dont use them casue the default arrangement makes no sence and unlike someone whos set up i saw online i dont knwo hwo to alter them


2. i have my own tool sets simple create a tab and put all the tools you want there leaving the defaults alone

3. take your modeling tools want to do a load of multiple bevels etc etc etc - in lightwave bevel draginng the mouse out and up or what ever you want right click more of the same - maya the same thing was clumbsy and jsut took about 3 times aslong

KillMe
12-11-2003, 01:30 AM
i dont think you can change the keys but i saw one guy who had it arrangeed like the the main interface - create modify etc etc etc was cool would love to know how he did it

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 01:40 AM
and if you like it so much you can do teh same thing basically in lightwave i dont use them casue the default arrangement makes no sence and unlike someone whos set up i saw online i dont knwo hwo to alter them


the whole thing doesnt make sense after you run maya for a while

you can make a marking menu with yer whole modeling workflow in it,have yer whole monitor just for workspace,and never leave that menuset to render even
now yer sayin that you can do all that in LW?
you can set ur workflow up buit its only for modeling,then you have to go to layout and as many people have said its a pain in the pixel....lol,cause ya got the hub to deal with and then you have to have eveything set in layout like you want it and ready to go then you cant just right click on everything to get to menu and otions,you have to sort thru text lists to find what ur looking for then dump those panels to see your workspace again
even the render panel doesnt need a interface because you can rightclick on it to bring all options to you instead of this digging through panels just to render a differant res or whatever....

tell me all about it....lol
been there

i wouldnt even had said nothing about it but takken in that other thread was making a big deal that lightwave should be like this or that app and making a fuss and then he starts this thread about what it should look like,the looks has less to do with anything when it comes to perfomance....this is pointless to wonder what its goin to "look like" because unless they get the thing right as far as workflow goes and playing nice with the other apps that everyone so despises here in this forum then the issue is a blackviod and holds no weight

when you have guys that cant even keep their pivot points from modeler(like in the thread from ThreeDBFX
and i know cause ive done that)then issues like 'looks' will always be secondary

KillMe
12-11-2003, 02:00 AM
yesyou can kill the entire interface and use the pop up menu doohickys if you so desire

and all pop etc every bloody tool in maya need a editor

as for text lists i dont knwo what the hell you've been doing perhaps taking those notepad threads to seriously

basically you hide all your UI then use your spacebar menu thing to bring them all back when ever you want to bevel something

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 02:17 AM
and all pop etc every bloody tool in maya need a editor

no you dont,you can leave the channel box open on the right hand side of ur screen and edit everything including "HISTORIES" of that or any other object in ur scene and AND key those attributes

pelos
12-11-2003, 02:20 AM
can we have diferents ui?
like in max that you can change the color and move thing all around

KillMe
12-11-2003, 02:21 AM
just fired up maya killed all the menus etc etc and left me with the space barmenu used it opedned up created a shere and pop one arranved btu well i got no choice i got a sphere

want opions of cource i do ah i need ot bring up this ugly box cant jsut draw out my sphere and use the arrow keys to increse its detail level noooooooo that would be to quick and easy

all those thigns jstu bring up your boxes again so why evr get rid of them? jsut an exercise in futility

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 02:25 AM
just fired up maya killed all the menus etc etc and left me with the space barmenu used it opedned up created a shere and pop one arranved btu well i got no choice i got a sphere


i have no idea wtf you are on about....i really dont,i thought you had something to say but ta...you lost me now....so im outta this pointless thread

MadMax
12-11-2003, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by KillMe
all i can say is thank god - the maya UI is absoluly horrendous

jsut from that list it has far to many bloody ediotrs - spend 90% time moving from one to the next

and lightwave 7.5 has many of those thigns on your list jsut better intergrated so you dont need to open up and editor to use the functionalty in other cases it jsut plain has them and afew lightwave 8 is going to have

LOL! you wish.

I would be thrilled if Lightwave's interface had some of Maya's elements. It beat the hell out of opening things like the surface editor and then spending all your time moving it all over the place so it isn't in the way.

I use both programs daily. Each has pros and cons. You shouldn't be so dismissive of something you clearly are not familiar with.

ngrava
12-11-2003, 04:32 AM
Man, I really loved those early LW8 preview shots that Duce posted way back when. I thought the design was very contuses of current design trends but was still very under stated. I remember how the debate went. There where so many people screaming for non rounded buttons. I couldn't believe it. As this was happening I kept thinking, 'I'm sure they can tell the difference between whining and really giving relevant opinions. Well, a few weeks latter, there's the Siggraph preview and guess what... Square buttons! I really don't care that much... well, maybe a little but the thing that irks me is how much power the users have over the software. It's like a pissing match and the one that yells the loudest... Actually wins! I think they should have stuck with there original idea because of just that: it was there idea.

-=GB=-

KillMe
12-11-2003, 11:36 AM
i'm not saying maya doesn't have some nice ideas and features , yes dockable panels- the space bar thing all quite cool and to give its its due i think under the hood maya is an awesome program but from maya playing with it msot of the great ideas are just badly implemented

now as for moving thigns out of the way yes its a pain but i would be happy if lightwave would jsut remember where i left them then they can all be ncie and dicretly hidden away on my second monitor by default

basically my point is lightwave is far more intuative program to useand in maya that you need to many numeric entry fields - cant forexample simple draw out a sphere and pulling at the corners to sphish and scale it to your hearts content - cant interactively bevel out muliple faces got to use those widget gizmo things

Locutus
12-11-2003, 01:41 PM
I too, liked the LW8 early concepts.
Oh, well, one can always dream.

Tudor
12-11-2003, 03:05 PM
wgreenlee..
Cut it out please. You might be a tech nerd all you want. You might switch 3d package aswell, but please, don't rant about it in here. I've been using LW for 8 years and Maya for 3 years. Every day when I get home I start LW and start to enjoy 3d again. LW is fun. Maya is not. It is all about what you create with it, and I have a much easier time creating stuff in LW as the technical aspects are so much more transparent. It is artist friendly and my tool of choice.

pnevai
12-11-2003, 04:54 PM
Since I can not make a judgement before actually using it, I'll stick to the Current 6.0-7.5 interface.

As for the maya controversy. I have used both, and my problem with Maya and it's interface is that because it is a integrated application (Modeler and layout in one app) it has too many controls and options hanging out there. Layer upon Layer upon Layer. Ever try to use Maya on anything less than a 21 or better monitor? You just do not have the real Estate to get a reasonable sized Modeling, or Scene window! All those tool bars, and editors and options take up an enormous amount of screen space! There is no way around it. Maya does not support hotkeys as extensively like LW does so you can only free up so much space for your Layout or modeling views. Working in layered windows one laying on top of the other while modeling is a royal pain in the rear.

The LW user interface and because of the hot keys and because when in modeler it does not present you tools that are only available and useful in layout, allows you to kill just about all of the menu items and toolbars, leaving yo a nice big area on the screen to fill with your actual work space. You may say that maya has those nifty 3 button mouse menus, well so does LW.

Personally I do not work well with Hiroglyphs. (Icon) based UI's, typically because most UI designers do not know how to create a icon that can be readily identified by a wide range of people. I really do not wish to have to sit and learn another foreign language (That is trying to dicepher what a Icon with a big circle with a bunch of little dots around it's circumference is supposed to mean) UI creators on the whole know what the ICON means because the designed it and 99% of the time with disregard to easy comprehensibility. 3D application software has a big enough learning curve without having to go and learn a hiroglyphic language to boot.

MadMax
12-11-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by pnevai
As for the maya controversy. I have used both, and my problem with Maya and it's interface is that because it is a integrated application (Modeler and layout in one app) it has too many controls and options hanging out there. Layer upon Layer upon Layer. Ever try to use Maya on anything less than a 21 or better monitor? You just do not have the real Estate to get a reasonable sized Modeling, or Scene window! All those tool bars, and editors and options take up an enormous amount of screen space! There is no way around it.


Completely wrong.

I use a 19" just fine. And screen real estate is quite easy to toggle on and off what you want. It sounds like you are not very familiar with using Maya if at all.


Maya does not support hotkeys as extensively like LW does so you can only free up so much space for your Layout or modeling views. Working in layered windows one laying on top of the other while modeling is a royal pain in the rear.


Layer upon layer as you put it makes it incredibly simple to work with what you want, when you want to work with it. Much better an implemenatation than anything Lightwave has.

As for hotkeys, that's nonsense. Maya has every bit the hotkey capability that Lightwave does, in fact even more so.


The LW user interface and because of the hot keys and because when in modeler it does not present you tools that are only available and useful in layout, allows you to kill just about all of the menu items and toolbars, leaving yo a nice big area on the screen to fill with your actual work space. You may say that maya has those nifty 3 button mouse menus, well so does LW.



So does Maya, quite easily I might add. I've found that working with organic models it is just much faster to work in Maya than Lightwave. The tools do not get in your way as much as they do in Lightwave at times.

However to make a fair comparison, and fair is the last thing some people would want, is to know both programs well enough to comment. Which apparently no one posting here does otherwise there wouldn't be so much misinformation being posted.

Like it or not, in the professional world you'll have to use more than one program, get over it or be stuck in the past.

LNT
12-11-2003, 05:55 PM
whoa what a thread! http://www.aoikenso.net/ap/cg/biggrin.gif

guys maya may be powerful but wishing for its worst aspect (ie interface clickabout) to be implemented in lightwave is plain silly

and all that coming from a couple of former lightwavers of a questionable skill (to say the least)

I myself am in the process of adapting my workflow and thinking to Softimage XSI and after absolving the basics of maya can say that xsi is in many ways afr ahead and yet I am not rushing back to lw forum screaming "stuff all the cool stuff from XSI in LW cos I am so fired up on it!"

that kind of attitude reeks of immaturity

takkun
12-11-2003, 05:59 PM
gwah, this thread is just going to get worse.



Waiter..... check please.

MadMax
12-11-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by LNT
whoa what a thread! http://www.aoikenso.net/ap/cg/biggrin.gif

guys maya may be powerful but wishing for its worst aspect (ie interface clickabout) to be implemented in lightwave is plain silly

and all that coming from a couple of former lightwavers of a questionable skill (to say the least)


Well now that wasn't very polite. And frankly I find your comments about questionable skills offensive and uncalled for in the extreme.

Pointing out workflow enhancements in a program that we wish lightwave had similar too isn't silly by any means.

Especially when some of the people here are making comments about programs they have apparently no experience with.



Originally posted by LNT
I myself am in the process of adapting my workflow and thinking to Softimage XSI and after absolving the basics of maya can say that xsi is in many ways afr ahead and yet I am not rushing back to lw forum screaming "stuff all the cool stuff from XSI in LW cos I am so fired up on it!"

that kind of attitude reeks of immaturity

That makes no sense at all. How is it immature to express an interest in certain types of features that a program doesn't have?

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 06:46 PM
and all that coming from a couple of former lightwavers of a questionable skill (to say the least)


well if we see any "former lightwave users with questionable skill" we will send ur way so you can explain to them...lol



I myself am in the process of adapting my workflow and thinking to Softimage XSI and after absolving the basics of maya can say that xsi is in many ways afr ahead and yet I am not rushing back to lw forum screaming "stuff all the cool stuff from XSI in LW cos I am so fired up on it!"


well if its(xsi) all so good then why not....or maybe ur not concerned with the subject at hand that being the progression of the lightwave interface like others are(even the ones you say are former users)then why not if you see something in xsi that might help lightwaves sloppy workflow,why not come here and suggest it?hmmm?hmmmm?
let me guess,newtek posted ur renders and now you cant even suggest anything for fear/guilt of insulting them perhaps ...i dunno
yeah,climb down out of ur 'render tree' lnt and get some fresh low altitude air and breathe some life into the conversation.....lol


ok..thats all im saying im back into lurking mode.....again...lol

takkun
12-11-2003, 06:52 PM
ok..thats all im saying im back into lurking mode.....again...lol You're lurking? But you're the one who made this discussion into a maya vs. lightwave flame war. Lurking... my ass.:hmm:

pnevai
12-11-2003, 06:57 PM
Actually I still have Maya 2.5 loaded on one of my servers here. About all I use it for is for some file translations.

I can pull it up at will and plod through the interface as we speak. Boxes of subdevided boxes with little pictograms that one is supposed to decipher. Heck give me a moment and I'll grab a screen shot and post it up for you!.

This copy of Maya came to me as a left over from the last guy who bought software for my department. I sat down with it and fought with it for the better part of 2 weeks. First I noticed that it was a resource pig. Man this package just sucked up memory. Next it did not play very well with windows NT. Finally the NON-Intuitive icon based UI left me with headaches. I said there must be a better way.

From a useability standpoint (I have quite a bit of experience developing MMI'S (Man Machine Interfaces) I must say that Maya has one of the poorest user interfaces I have seen. The majority of the icons are so vague that determining their proper function is almost nil, upon face value. Of the ones I've seen none are very good. Maya's useability index falls right down there with the truespace GUI. Heck Corel Bryce (Formerly Meta-Creations) has a GUI that is a order of magnitude easier to understand.

With Lightwave there is no question. Soft Image also has a excellent intuitive GUI. Tabs with drop down menu's that are written in clear language. No way to mistake the word "Extrude" with anything else.

Remember I am talking only about the human interface and usibility! LW is far easier to navigate than just about any package out there. It makes for a clean uncluttered workspace. Application seperation means that the application loads in half of the time than other packes because it does not have to load as many DLL's and aplications to run. It makes more efficient use of memory resources.

I can run LW 7.5 on a 166mhz P1 machine with 64mbyte ram and Windows 98 and still be productive. Say that about any other High End 3D application. Some times it is nice to grab the old notebook and sit out at the beach and work on a project as easily as I can back in the office. Or have a master instance of LW loaded on one server and have multiple instances of the SW running on a few networked machines.

Try that with Maya without going through some major hoops and hurdles. Every SW out there has excellent features and drawbacks. LW is no different. It can and has produced end results that are every bit as good as Maya. If that were not the case it would have ceased being a industry product and gone the way of the DoDo.

Heck just think about this one. It puts things in perspective.

3D animation has gone back to the roots of art. First it was about creating everything from scratch in CGI. Do you know it takes far less time to draw and color a 3D representation of a cube using pen and paper than it does using the latest and greatest technology? DUH.

Studio's ar going away from modeling everything on the machines. It just takes too much time. standard 2D animation takes far less time to produce. Becoming more and more common is the use of laser scanning technology that takes low tek but high quality clay sculptures to let the software create the primary 3D mesh. It is cheaper and far faster way of production. Animators will have less and less to do as Motion Capture technology replaces the hand animation.


WHOA. Think about that, you do not have to know how to model only do mesh touchup. You do not really have to know how to animate only tune up motions and velocities. But you still need the people who know color, lighting, textures, can actually use their hands to sculpt or build something. Think it is not happening? Well Surprise! And as laser scanning and motion capture technologies improve the requirements of the modeler and the animator will be less and less. Heck you only have to pay for a machine or software once. But knowing how to light, compose, and set and finish a scene will always be required. And I drift off on a tangent.

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by takkun
You're lurking? But you're the one who made this discussion into a maya vs. lightwave flame war. Lurking... my ass.:hmm:


the question was and i quote....
User Interface Vote!

Which UI design would you like to see for Lightwave 8?



all i said was it needs to have a few things like maya,mainly the workflow issues resolved,then i get attacked,suddenly i dont use lightwave,then all these other unfounded idealics say i cant have a say about nothing (because the fanboy base feels threatened)
because a maya/lightwave user says something that needs to be changed in the interface/workflow design of said software
if you want to make what i say into flames theres a few others that could use a little cooling also ....takken... lol


and thats all i said

ok...im backing outta here with both pistols drawed,nobody make any sudden moves....lol
im quiet ok?.......lmao
'i give up'...'uncle' and all that other good stuff...........hehe

LNT
12-11-2003, 07:14 PM
That makes no sense at all. How is it immature to express an interest in certain types of features that a program doesn't have?

well if you look at the title of this topic,it asks for votes on LW user interface

I find it immature that some people would see it as a call for themselves to jump in and incessantly list all the maya features they so proudly managed to learn ...who cares?

simple truth is LW works the LW way and we all know that none of the maya interface elements listed would make it in LW8,not that anyone asked for maya comparison at all

as for my "questionable skill" remark - it was not aimed at you MadMax but on wgree and CIM,hell I dont even know if you can be classified as a lightwave user...I said a couple which means 2 - 2 people who bitch about LW and boast about maya and have nothing to show for it

I know there are plenty of other maya users who can show good stuff they did with the software (but then they're not posting silly lists in LW forum) just as well as there is plenty of LW users that make cools stuff withit and just as well as there are MAX and XSI people too

and no,I am not sworn to loyalty to NewTek of any kind, I'm a lightwave license owner just like anyone else and might well switch to other software if/when it's necessary

I can only say for myself that I know LW well enough not to expect it to be like other softwares when LW clearly does everything its own clear and simplified way at the expense of complex possibilities other apps offer

takkun
12-11-2003, 07:15 PM
Okay greenlee, you're right. The blame falls on Kill Me too. And on me for starting a stupid poll... last time I do that.... pfft! :rolleyes:

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 07:26 PM
2 people who bitch about LW and boast about maya and have nothing to show for it


so if you say anything that you would like changed or if another program has something you like then you cant say anything?
and you cant say anything here if someone doesnt 'show you' anything?thats a crock and a half because 80%of the registered particpents here at cgtalk dont have anything to show so that means they are not allowed to post on discussions?
get real lnt

Krix
12-11-2003, 07:35 PM
Thank you for the Lesson....again!

If someone starts a thread about being excited about anykind of Lightwave related stuff here at the Lightwave forum it hurts some professionals ear and always feel that they have to come and tell us the big truth. They cannot simply accept that there are people who are happy about something what is not good for them.
This happened tons of times recently. This thread was a good idea. It was good to see what kind of interface people like and why. Vote was a good idea too, actually can help newtek to see if we like how the interface is shaping up.

But some has to come in and blame and advertise other applications here. Why is it necessary? Why always? That makes people not to like to come here.

I guess somebody is going to close this thread too.

Odrakir
12-11-2003, 07:47 PM
There's something in those pics I haven't realised until now: Are those MSwindows' windows? Does that mean they are using the windows API to program Lightwave 8? :eek:

Odrakir.

CIM
12-11-2003, 07:55 PM
as for my "questionable skill" remark - it was not aimed at you MadMax but on wgree and CIM,hell I dont even know if you can be classified as a lightwave user...I said a couple which means 2 - 2 people who bitch about LW and boast about maya and have nothing to show for it

Maybe you should try reading the posts a little closer. Nowhere in this thread did I say LW should be like Maya. I simply was pointing out that KillMe is clearly someone who doesn't know and understand Maya's workflow (like most who blindly diss programs they don't know or even use).

Stone
12-11-2003, 08:11 PM
@wgreenlee and @cim, so i dont like maya either. it has the worst modeler of the bunch and the worst and most illogical interface. sure there are some nice ideas and stuff in it, but it just doesnt work well.

now im sure that you in your power of being a better person than me, will tell me that's because i dont know maya. you however have no knowledge about what i know and what i doesnt know - yet i still dont like the maya interface.

thank you for ruining what could have been an otherwise nice thread, again.

/stone

KillMe
12-11-2003, 09:04 PM
the onyl thing i said that seemed ot start this whole thign was that i was glad that lightwave wasn't maya - also that alot of those thigns he listed are in 8

while i might not know maya that well what i do know is that it is not as intuative as lightwave

before you tell em i dont know maya thats the point i picked up lightwave basics in about oh 5 mins - the maya basics are so unintative i've get to get a full grasp of them

i have no objectection to someoneing oh it would be nice if it had sucha and such from maya but to present a list of things from the maya manul index is jsut immature and destined to cause trouble in a non maya forum

now likewise i'm not blindly loyal to newtek - the recent price drop for xsi had me sorely tempted but then i thought nah it might be better have more options enough to make maya users green with envy and have a workflow that acaully flows something maya severly lacks but i figured that for my current skill level lightwave can do more than i can and 8 looked like it would be pretty damned cool and i didn't want to spend Ģ3000 on software when itcan be far better spent on a dune buggy kit

so back to the point if you want to make consctrutive ideas sure but dont just use a topic like this as an excuse for lightwave bashing especially with reguard to the interface when your comparing it to maya

shirudo
12-11-2003, 09:09 PM
personally I use LW 7 and I don't care which interface the new version has just as long as what I've learned from seven will be aplicable I can't stand 180 shifts from version to version
but on a side note all I'm very disapointed in all who come just to slam one program or another without the slightest cause .how you access a feature is only a matter learning the software whether the software has that feature or not is what you should be talking about even when comparing apples and oranges fight with POV-RAY for a while then complain about mayas' numeric entry fields all of the $1,000+ acm programs are easier to use and alot more powerful than their generic equivelent so if one program or anothers clumsy interface or lack features disgusts you than just don't use it but for gods sake quit feeling sorry for people that do

LNT
12-11-2003, 09:49 PM
so if you say anything that you would like changed or if another program has something you like then you cant say anything?

wgreen I'm optimistic and still believe my point is simple enough for you to grasp...

it'd be a lot better if you were first capable of producing decent stuff in either LW or maya (preferably both) before you should pass judgements on the interfaces and workflow - why am I saying this?

because that way you'd be forced to deal with the real workflow issues and would quickly realise that 3D apps interface/featurelist is not all of it

I can tell you a simple fact - for example lw modeler's build is totally dated in comparison to XSI's modeling module (which arguably has a simpler&faster SubD workflow with more nifty options than maya's btw) yet lw modeler has some features so seamlessly embedded into OpenGL that its still easier to work with than in other 2 apps - do you really need rightclicks,menus etc when sitting right in front of you you have phantom points,dragtool,spinquads and the most complete symmetry modeling mode in these 3 apps?
XSI has SubD ngon support,relatively adequate Symmetry,Immediate (history free) mode,flexible,versatile and robust selection and polygon cutting tools but in all honesty I still cannot say it beats lw in terms of modeling speed....just in order to have comparable symmetry mode in both xsi or maya you need to have history on which makes working in subD mode a lot slower than in LW .In turn LW can never have construction history....to each its own - until lw's rewrite that is

SheepFactory
12-11-2003, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by KillMe
while i might not know maya that well what i do know is that it is not as intuative as lightwave




Maybe its because you dont know maya well enough. Why do you out making assumptions on a software you dont know how to use?

have you tried customizing the interface to fit your needs ? I guess noone told you that the maya interface is 100% customizable and none of the experienced users uses it straight out of the box uncostomized.

Remi
12-11-2003, 10:03 PM
I called it when I said.....Spare me:rolleyes:

CIM
12-11-2003, 10:07 PM
while i might not know maya that well what i do know is that it is not as intuative as lightwave

Your clear inexperience voids any opinion of yours on Maya and it's workflow. And that's all it it -- YOUR opinion. It's not fact, like you might think it is. :rolleyes:

If you love LW, then use it. Nobody is making you use Maya, XSI, Poser, or whatever.

KillMe
12-11-2003, 10:09 PM
you seem to not be getting the meaning of the word intuiative

means you should be able to understand it without trying it comes naturally - maya does not come naturally

as for being 100% thats bull s**t and you know it - if its was 100% customisable tehre would be nothing i couldn't change in which case i could make it run exactly lightwave which to my knowledge you cant do - you can hide parts of it thats all

jsut tell me one simple lightwave operation

how in maya do you draw out of a squished sphere / box anything?

as far as i can tell you need to use the number entry fiels to make it anything otehr than a perfect cube otherwise you need to use a scale tool makes darwing toa background image a pain doesn't it?

cant just draw oper the object have first get your sphere center it on the background image scale it etc etc

in lightwave it is 2 drags of the mouse with the box tool want devisions hitt the up and sideways arrows want another one? right click - nothign is that simple in maya

well maya it is i guess but then i want to hear about it cause i sure as hell not seen anythign taht well designed

Shade01
12-11-2003, 10:12 PM
I really don't understand why people bitch so much about the look of the interface anyway. When you're trying to complete a job how the interface looks will be the least of your problems.

shirudo
12-11-2003, 10:13 PM
though they all do everything my impression is that softimage is the preffered movie making software 3dsmax is the preffered game creation software and maya/LW are the preffered concept art software who cares which one is easiest and how does this pointless debate help to improve the LW interface I've yet to read one relivant suggestion

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 10:13 PM
so back to the point if you want to make consctrutive ideas sure but dont just use a topic like this as an excuse for lightwave bashing especially with reguard to the interface when your comparing it to maya


nobodys bashing lightwave,
when someone says if it could just do this one thing like this other program(be that whatever program you may wish) you guys act like the endtime is upon us and run and grab the box LW was shipped in and hold it close and say "maya=bad,LW=good"........and to me its funny ok?lol( i used to be that way also ok?)
there is a lot of things maya should be able to do like LW but ta....im having probs thinkin of one right now but ta...oh yeah,maya doesnt have a default bevel as good as lightwaves...hehe but the issue is the interface

in maya you can have no interface and still be able to get to all the tools and all the editors without a fuss and to me...thats cool
i could never run LW in this manner...but thats me...im not saying sell ur copy on ebay,ok?lol...im saying it could have some of this stuff like maya....and ah...im not saying the maya monster is coming to eat your lw disk either...lol

ok,im gonna start a thread in the maya forum on maya6's interface....and ah...i'll bet you 10 polygons to a vertice that 9/10 users say..."what interface?" because they already did that over there and its a joke ok and most said they use little or no interface...to me its funny starting a thread on what the next version is going to look like...but ta....thats me....lol

KillMe
12-11-2003, 10:15 PM
well i dont intend to use maya - i jsut dont like people simply using threads like this as an excuse to bash lightwave in favour of maya

an yes my lack of knowlege of maya might make some of my comments and opinions not valid but not the ones about how intuative it is

as my lack of knowledge of maya isn't from lack of trying - when the ple first came out i was like wow maya for free cant wait to get my hands of some real 3d power ( at that stage i was using truespace - ack) but i jsut couldn't get into it - its interface was frankly off putting from when i first opened it up and no amount of exploring helped itsimple didn't work that well

lightwave wow when i first got my ahnds on it i was up and running in no time

hence my assertation that lightwave has a more intuative and user friendly interface

wgreenlee1
12-11-2003, 10:20 PM
it is,lightwave is a great program
it has its issues like any other but its just funny to watch everyone run for the knife tool(Shift+k)...lol....when ever this happens
not once have i seen this happen and someone say "yeah,that'd be cool if lightwave did that like maya" never...and its just funny to me...

KillMe
12-11-2003, 10:23 PM
i disagreeyour post jsut smacked of lw bashing - wasn't anythign contructive about it was oh i have maya look at me its wornderful lightwave jstu cant compare type post

should ahve been oh well i would lie to see oh i dont know a new uv editor in lightwave more like maya's - that i would except and whole heartly agree with

likewise would lvoe to get my hands on paint fx and maya fluids

and maya's skinning tools too which probally would like a blend between maya's and lightwaves - tehcnically mays was far superior but in other areas lightwave was more user friendly and faster

for example setting the weight values manually - just grab the points of polys in lightwave bring up the set vertex value tool and type in the value seemed from what i saw had to use a spred sheet type thing in maya and it just took longer

that said mayas you could lock the values to 100% and they ouldn't go over that - other bone influences would reduce when you increased another etc that would be awesome if made part of lightwave

hope you see my point that your initial post seemed more an attack on lightwave than it did a conscrutive crit

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 02:35 AM
***bump***:buttrock:

Anoma1y
12-12-2003, 03:49 AM
Why not just include them all, and let the user decide?

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 04:14 AM
Originally posted by Anoma1y
Why not just include them all, and let the user decide?

cause that costs money and newteks philosophy is to keep it cheap

DaveW
12-12-2003, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by KillMe

that said mayas you could lock the values to 100% and they ouldn't go over that - other bone influences would reduce when you increased another etc that would be awesome if made part of lightwave


Unless I'm misunderstanding you, LW already does that for bones, if you check the "weight normalization" option in the bone panel.

KillMe
12-12-2003, 05:08 AM
its better in maya - its all on the fly all automatic- fa better than weightnormalisation atleast i thought ti looked it anyay - cim or wgreenlee1 could probally tell you more about it - but i do remember thinking wow thats cool they also had guassian blur tools for blending 2 weights

maya skinning defeintly looked better - but but lightwave is faster for setting specific values as i said i would lvoe to see a merger of both systems - mayas capabilities combined with lightwaves ease of use

Goon
12-12-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
***bump***:buttrock:

Why did you do this wgreenlee1 (CIM too)? What do you have to prove?

I use maya. I like it. I tried LW. I don't like it. That said there are people who have tried Maya, and don't like it. Some of them like LW. Who am I (and you), to say that they should like Maya and not LW?
Why do you care so much, that you have deliberately turned this thread into a maya v. lw thread? While you have excused your statements as pointing out the beneficial aspects of another package, you did not do so in a way that actually assists the conversation. You could have simply said that you would have liked more customization, maybe that Maya's marking menus where cool, or that by altering such and such, LW's workflow could be improved.
Please do not waste peoples time like this.

(sorry everyone, but this thread pissed me off)

CIM
12-12-2003, 06:23 AM
Why did you do this wgreenlee1 (CIM too)? What do you have to prove?

Where did I ever bump this thread or any other threads? Nowhere!

Last time I checked, I'm not wgreenlee1, nor have I ever been. Maybe some of you should take note of that little fact.

Tudor
12-12-2003, 11:31 AM
Ehh.. no.. Not so at all.
LW is king amongst the programs I tried for skinning.
What about this totally great feature in LW where weights are included in the object file. That is just beautiful. Oh! Several bones can use the same weightmap. That is a killer feature.
Easy to add holder bones aswell as the bones are dynamic.
I work with rigging stuff in Maya aswell as LW, and by far I prefer LW.

Originally posted by KillMe
maya skinning defeintly looked better - but but lightwave is faster for setting specific values as i said i would lvoe to see a merger of both systems - mayas capabilities combined with lightwaves ease of use

Sil3
12-12-2003, 12:41 PM
Maya Skinning weights PLAIN SUCKS period, in fact itīs a shame to see such a retarded system on one of the best animation packages there is.

In LW at least i have the option to use or not use weights at all, Maya forces me to use them all the time, rigid or smooth, but we still need to spend precious amount of hours to get something decente. I prefer to place hold bones for certain areas, but in MAYA i cant even do that in a simplistic away because i cannot tell it to use one weight map for more than one bone.

Maya bones need each own weight, i joke about them by saying:

"It seems the guys that wrote that crappy weighting system were only thinking in making our lifes harder instead of easier"

Imagine a rig with 50 bones os a 4-5K poly mesh, Maya seems to distribuite the soft weights all over the place for those bones, like if it was really "joking" with us. The pinky finger bones can have influence on the toe bone by no apparent reason, even if they are "miles" apart form each other. Working in a Outside2Inside weighting manner and locking weights, after everything is done, there is always some points that get affected by who knows why, forcing us to enter the component editor and "kill" those values, that will be added to "who knows" what other bone. In this area LW wins hands down without a doubt IMO, but LW rigging features (present ones) plain sucks compared to Maya, so ...

Maya has some really nice features indeed, Rigging, Animation, Dynamics, Particles, UVīs and MEL are top notch, but on the other hand, Modeling, Weighting and Render tools are the worst there is on the market, i really dont care that Maya brings MR, itīs badly implemented and it costīs a fortune for additional rendering nodes, unless we are only rendering with one machine, MR in Maya is really useless without spending lotīs of money for more 4-5 CPUS.

Maya UI is fully customizable, and itīs a very powerfull one to, at first glance things might not seem logic, but the UI is pretty well layed out, and itīs easy to customize it as we want it. I doubt we will have acess to this customization power in LW 8, but itīs something Newtek should really consider for the next revision. More and more software is getting cheaper, more and more we use more than one application to get the job done, instead of forcing us to learn each other way, i prefer something that letīs me make it similar in everyone of them and use the strenghtīs each one of this Applications has to offer

After all, modeling is pushing and pulling points/polys or edges in everyone of them, animating is making keyframes and rendering and lighting is placing lights and apply textures, the methodology is the same on every Application, if i can have them all behave somewhat similiar, i can concentrate more in producing art rather than learning UIīs.

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by CIM
Where did I ever bump this thread or any other threads? Nowhere!

Last time I checked, I'm not wgreenlee1, nor have I ever been. Maybe some of you should take note of that little fact.

i'll take note of that cim...lol
i mean im grumpy and everything but ta....in no way do i match your....well i mean.....lol,i think you know what i mean....lol

MarkCurtis
12-12-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by CIM
Where did I ever bump this thread or any other threads? Nowhere!

Last time I checked, I'm not wgreenlee1, nor have I ever been. Maybe some of you should take note of that little fact.

the identity confusion is because your styles of artwork are so similar

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by MarkCurtis
the identity confusion is because your styles of artwork are so similar


well are you prepared to send some cash to see it?
im not a cheap fluzzie...ya know?lol

Anoma1y
12-12-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
cause that costs money and newteks philosophy is to keep it cheap

I think the cost of including two or three interface skins in a ~$1500 piece of software would be negligible...

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Anoma1y
I think the cost of including two or three interface skins in a ~$1500 piece of software would be negligible...


how much would it cost then?
they know and have known as does many software programmers know and really in any business that you dont spend on anything even the smallest of expendatures unless the the revenue is going to support it
in this case (unlike modo which is really going to be the ultimate in predefined user interfaces) having that option is not savy in the intrest that even if it took one programmer one day to set it up it wouldnt be worth it
there is more important stuff to contend with and having someone making that kind of money to waste it on what little real intrest abounds from this issue is not feasible

(now watch ,fter i said this then they will come out with something like it,they already have the option to roll the interface back to 5.6 i think so they might try it...depends on sales i guess but most have sent them the money for this upgrade months ago anyways....lol)

MarkCurtis
12-12-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
well are you prepared to send some cash to see it?
im not a cheap fluzzie...ya know?lol

oh yeah?

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by MarkCurtis
oh yeah?

wow my first model in maya huh,i think that took 30 minutes to crank out (and it shows) but i guess the effort of you finding it is payment enough...lol

MarkCurtis
12-12-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
wow my first model in maya huh,i think that took 30 minutes to crank out (and it shows) but i guess the effort of you finding it is payment enough...lol

1st model? 30 minutes? sure, right.

I dont think we need any more
examples.

:eek:

MadMax
12-12-2003, 04:29 PM
Anyone got more butter for the popcorn?

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by MarkCurtis
1st model? 30 minutes? sure, right.

I dont think we need any more
examples.

:eek:

yeah really...the first day i got maya i sat down and fumbled my way thru that
im not saying i could do any better with more time but thats one of the many things ive done when i first got maya
if you dont want to belive it dont
if you know so much then more power to ya

KillMe
12-12-2003, 04:40 PM
arguments of 3d ability asside

while it seems in fact lightwaves weighting has some serious advantages over maya's ( i didn nto knwo the limitations of maya skinning tools - i just saw a 3d buzz video think from a 3d world mag) but iremember ebing impressed with at very elast they way you could blur the edges ouf your weight maps and how it would compensate to keep values at 100% increase or descresing othersas you changed other and it did it inteligently on the fly

would like to see those thigns implemented in lightwave
would also apprioate it if the spray paint thing was more reliable and the whole thign was faster

jsut my point anyway

MadMax
12-12-2003, 05:18 PM
guys, guys, come on.

Do we really need to go here?

To everyone engaged in fighting over whose dick is bigger............

Most of you are wrong, period. Both sides.

I use both daily. It's an occupational hazard. Know what? BOTH Programs are good.

@KillMe, Maya is not as hard as you are implying. I was making models the first day. More often than not, peole who are used to doing something one way reject learning something new. It's a fact of human nature.

My very first Maya model was for a film, and it was a character. To prepare, I read the intro manual, and watched a Gnomon Video.

Both programs are fairly easy to work in. Deny it all any of you want, but both are fairly easy to use.

On the subject of requestors/editors etc. both programs have numeric inputs for just about everything, quit trying to imply otherwise.

To whoever said that Maya wasn't easily configurable, you are wrong. Maya is 100% configurable including the interface elements. The entire interface is a collection of modifiable scripts. Anyone who has read the manuals knows this.

I'll only speak for myself when I state that Maya has a lot of very usable elements that would be a very welcom addition to the Lightwave toolset.

Maya handles layers much better than lightwave. I would welcome Maya's method of layering. Also, I like the fact that Maya makes one "editors" panel down the side which changes based on what tool I am working in without having to drag it to another monitor or move it around on the screen so that stuff I need isn't covered up.

And lastly I like the fact that in Maya I can turn off every element of the interface giving me a full unfettered screen to work in, leaving all the really necessary tools in the space bar where they are very easy to get to.

Lightwave could certainly benefit from some of those qualities. That is why people like Chuck Baker and William the Proton ask things like what would you like to see in a future release.

It's not bashing to point out the tools you get the most use out of even if it is another program.

Lightwave has just as many plusses in it's favor. I don't like Polys in Maya. I don't like the Maya renderer. I don't like the lack of network rendering in Maya. I don't like a lot of things in Maya.

But unlike some, I don't bash either one. I use the elements best suited for what I am doing. I save in obj so I can pass models back and forth as I NEED to.

While I admit watching you guys go at it like cavemen is pretty funny, it gets old. Neither side is behaving very maturely.

takkun
12-12-2003, 06:05 PM
Geez guys, I know I'm not one to talk, as I've been a giant dickhead towards greenlee and cim in the past, but all of these personal insults just have to stop. As Madmax said, it gets old. If you don't like what someone said, just ignore it and move on, don't get caught in the internet forum cliché flamewar.

MarkCurtis
12-12-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by takkun
Geez guys, I know I'm not one to talk, as I've been a giant dickhead towards greenlee and cim in the past,


So why did you behave that way towards them?
Are you saying that you were wrong to do so?

takkun
12-12-2003, 06:14 PM
Are you saying that you were wrong to do so? Absolutely.

MarkCurtis
12-12-2003, 06:30 PM
And why did you behave that way towards them in the first place?

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 06:38 PM
why heck...i like it
you can even feel free to pm me with any insults you can muster....i love any attention....lol

im desperate.........lmao

takkun
12-12-2003, 06:42 PM
And why did you behave that way towards them in the first place? Well, I didn't like some of their comments, and so I would pick a fight. Because of the anonymity of the internet, people feel that it gives them freedom to be assholes when they aren't like that at all in real life. There should be a term for it, like internetassholitis. I'm talking about myself, of course.

Remi
12-12-2003, 06:45 PM
Why is this thread still around? I'm quite curious...it's doing nothing for the board:rolleyes:

takkun
12-12-2003, 06:52 PM
Why is this thread still around? I'm quite curious... Maybe because someone bumped it, check back a couple pages.

Remi
12-12-2003, 06:54 PM
I've seen more worth-while threads get closed by the mods.....I was just curious as to why this one wasn't

wgreenlee1
12-12-2003, 06:55 PM
the question was:
User Interface Vote!

Which UI design would you like to see for Lightwave 8?




i said it didnt have a choice to vote for maya and all reindeer poop broke loose.........lol

MarkCurtis
12-12-2003, 06:57 PM
remi, what previously closed threads are you referring to?

Mad props to greenie for his new avatar!

Remi
12-12-2003, 07:15 PM
Not getting sucked into this one...just made a comment take it for what it is......end of transmission

leigh
12-12-2003, 07:25 PM
Thread closed.