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View Full Version : CNN:Group warns about 'killographic' games


RobertoOrtiz
12-10-2003, 03:10 PM
Quote:
"A public interest group had a holiday warning and a new word Monday for parents of video game users: Beware of "killographic," defined as the "graphic depiction of brutal violence."

The National Institute on Media and the Family, an independent, nonprofit group, said "killographic" scenes are featured in a number of video games within reach of children.

Issuing its eighth annual MediaWise Video Game Report Card, the institute listed games parents should avoid for their children, led by "Manhunt."

"If pornographic is the 'graphic depiction of sex,' then killographic should enter our vocabulary to describe the 'graphic depiction of brutal violence,"' David Walsh, the institute's president, told a Capitol Hill news conference. "

>>Link<< (http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/fun.games/12/09/warning.videogames.reut/index.html)
-R

Bpanting
12-10-2003, 03:19 PM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3 :buttrock:

Spankspeople
12-10-2003, 03:21 PM
Jeebus pants I hate not being able to read Penny Arcade from work.

RobertoOrtiz
12-10-2003, 03:24 PM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2003/20031210l.gif

(c) 2003 Penny Arcade

-R

t-toe
12-10-2003, 03:29 PM
as far as the article goes, thumbs way way down... let's blame anything we can except the parents. it's no one's fault, it's video games' fault!!!!

LOL! penny arcade once again displays their brilliance!!!

and as far as your new avatar goes, an enthusiastic thumbs up, Roberto!!!

DePingus
12-10-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by RobertoOrtiz
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2003/20031210l.gif

(c) 2003 Penny Arcade

-R

I can't see pics linked to penny-arcade at work either.

halo
12-10-2003, 03:50 PM
"If pornographic is the 'graphic depiction of sex,' then killographic should enter our vocabulary to describe the 'graphic depiction of brutal violence,"' David Walsh, the institute's president, told a Capitol Hill news conference. "

a classic example of someones brain collapsing under the wieght of a long word...what a twatographer...hope someone threw a book of the origins of his language at him...

PhilOsirus
12-10-2003, 04:48 PM
It might already be trademarked as Kill-O-Graphic.

It's Crazy-O-matic!

mattregnier
12-10-2003, 05:56 PM
It doesn't matter how many fancy words you come up with.

It doesn't matter how many different ratings you come up with.

Kids will still get to a game no matter what.

I mean the movies came out with the R ratings a long time ago, but that still doesn't stop underage kids from getting into them.

Alcohol isn't legal in the US til age 21. That doesn't stop underage kids from drinking.

Fact of the matter is is stop wasting our tax dollars on crap ratings systems, and start at the root of the problem and develop something that targets the parents.

projectcoil
12-10-2003, 06:20 PM
Don't misunderestimate the strategery and subliminable messages carried with made up words.

Seriously, is this really headline news? There have been a lot of dung flooding in, and it's not particularly publicly interesting even when they say it is.

Dennik
12-10-2003, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by mattregnier
It doesn't matter how many fancy words you come up with.
It doesn't matter how many different ratings you come up with.
Kids will still get to a game no matter what.
I mean the movies came out with the R ratings a long time ago, but that still doesn't stop underage kids from getting into them.
Alcohol isn't legal in the US til age 21. That doesn't stop underage kids from drinking.
Fact of the matter is is stop wasting our tax dollars on crap ratings systems, and start at the root of the problem and develop something that targets the parents.

Very well said. To be a parent these days, differs very little from being a criminal. Because irresponsible parents are criminals.
Most parents think that all it takes to raise a kid, is to feed it, put it to sleep, play with it, change its diapers, and pay for its school and college. Very few understand the responsibility of shaping a kid's character, untill it reaches a certain age that doesn't listen to you anymore. Ratings can do nothing about it. when a kid exits the house, it enters a sewage. Because our society is a sewage. Bad influences from everywhere. If only, people would start to understand again the importance of making a good family, trying to make it work, and stop running to lawyers.... Now that could make a difference. More than any rating system in the world...
:hmm:

projectcoil
12-10-2003, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Dennik
Very well said. To be a parent these days, differs very little from being a criminal. Because irresponsible parents are criminals.
Most parents think that all it takes to raise a kid, is to feed it, put it to sleep, play with it, change its diapers, and pay for its school and college. Very few understand the responsibility of shaping a kid's character, untill it reaches a certain age that doesn't listen to you anymore. Ratings can do nothing about it. when a kid exits the house, it enters a sewage. Because our society is a sewage. Bad influences from everywhere. If only, people would start to understand again the importance of making a good family, trying to make it work, and stop running to lawyers.... Now that could make a difference. More than any rating system in the world...
:hmm:

Things like this always skips a generation.

MarkCurtis
12-10-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Dennik
... Ratings can do nothing about it. when a kid exits the house, it enters a sewage. Because our society is a sewage.
....

And didn't you intentionally emigrate to this society of sewage for a reason?

Dennik
12-10-2003, 07:09 PM
MarkCurtis: I don't get your point.
projectcoil: I don't get your point either.

projectcoil
12-10-2003, 07:17 PM
Dennik: Morals are an acquirement - like music, like a foreign language, like piety, poker, paralysis - no man is born with them. Mark Twain

Good parents, bad kids. Bad parents, good kids.

Dennik
12-10-2003, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by projectcoil
Dennik: Morals are an acquirement - like music, like a foreign language, like piety, poker, paralysis - no man is born with them. Mark Twain

Good parents, bad kids. Bad parents, good kids.

Sure, i'm not saying anything different, just mentioning the fact that the parent is the only one responsible for his kids future character and social behaviour, and its up to the parent not to just forbid the kid from going to an R rated movie or to drink and smoke, just "because" but to teach it why these things are wrong for a reason, and why morality is the backbone of free will rather than the opposite of it.

lone
12-10-2003, 08:49 PM
parents are not gods. while sorry parents are no doubt going to produce sorry kids, there is no guarantee that good parents will produce good kids - i grew up in a nice, middle-class neighborhood, where eveyone had good parents who tried their best to raise decent, moral kids, and all of us turned into evil little shits. never underestimate the power of PEER PRESSURE, and don't absolve the kids of all of the blame.

JooS-10
12-10-2003, 09:44 PM
Parents are not the whole problem here. Kids will get their hands on these games no matter what, I mean kids can get cigarettes pretty easily by just soliciting outside of a store, Ive seen it many times. Anyway, I am a senior in highschool, and just today I walked into the computer lab and there were around four 7 graders playing the most violent flash game I have ever seen, on the same level as Postal, but sicker. I mean their parents have no idea they are playing this game at school, and if one of those kids "goes stupid" and kills someone you simply cannot blame the parents, for in cases such as this the parents just had no idea. Another example is a child playing these games at a friends house, blame his parents?

erilaz
12-10-2003, 09:55 PM
Sounds like advertising material to me:


"C'mon kids! It's killographic!!":thumbsup:

KingMob
12-10-2003, 11:32 PM
cant beleive im gonna say this..but i see nothing wrong with this.

They are warning parents to not buy these games for kids?

great! finally the parents have to eb responsible.
I didnt read the whole article tho, so I could be talking out my arse.

If they arent suing any games companies, and just warning underage kids parents to not let them play the newst gta thats fine in my book... just stop suing the companies yeesh...thats what pisses me off.

KingMob
12-10-2003, 11:33 PM
and yeah killographic is about the coolest made up word i have ever heard.

im going to describe things that way from now on.

also would enjoy "killoragious, and killtastic"

CIM
12-11-2003, 12:07 AM
Retailers should start treating the sale of mature games like porn or alcohol; maybe then ppl. will start to shut up about them. I doubt it though.

KingMob
12-11-2003, 12:22 AM
heh imagine going to the game store and having to go through the beaded 'door' to get the latest grand theft auto game haha..

that would rock.

projectcoil
12-11-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by lone
parents are not gods. while sorry parents are no doubt going to produce sorry kids, there is no guarantee that good parents will produce good kids - i grew up in a nice, middle-class neighborhood, where eveyone had good parents who tried their best to raise decent, moral kids, and all of us turned into evil little shits. never underestimate the power of PEER PRESSURE, and don't absolve the kids of all of the blame.

Hey, at least you admitted it. In my book, you're a cut above the rest. :beer:

moovieboy
12-11-2003, 01:20 AM
As many of us "Gen-X'ers" are now raising our lil' "Gen-9/11s", it'll be curious to see how a generation raised on videogames (many of whom are still playing) deal with such matters as their kids become teens (which I'm sure is already happening!).

Since damn near all of us did not become video arcade addicts, or start gunning/beating down people in the street because of games like Narc and Street Fighter, do ya think we'll be anymore sane when our kids are playing "Grand Theft Auto IX: Grunge City" on the PS6? :shrug:

-Tom

erilaz
12-11-2003, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by KingMob
and yeah killographic is about the coolest made up word i have ever heard.

im going to describe things that way from now on.

also would enjoy "killoragious, and killtastic"

They are great words. Let's all use them in a sentence today!:D

"Killerific" and "Killeration" would be up there as well.

heavyness
12-11-2003, 05:05 AM
the National Board of Rick "kole" Kolesar had has issued some new words to counter this "killographic" phrase...


Parentalnumbness : when parents buy any product for there children without even looking over the product and taking their children’s' word its ok for them.

Mediahypent : when any member of the media covers game news in a negative way and or slanders/skews the news to their benefit.

Govbein'assen : when local or national government officials try to past laws against video games just because they have want to be on the eleven o’clock news.


sorry, felt like making up words. all i know is that the first time i hear a parent use this word in the store to describe a game, i'm going to laugh my ass off stuponfuciously.

ndat
12-11-2003, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by CIM
Retailers should start treating the sale of mature games like porn or alcohol; maybe then ppl. will start to shut up about them. I doubt it though.

lol... no thanks would hate to have to go out of my way into the porn area to buy my favorite game, or would I :).

Aikisean
12-11-2003, 05:50 PM
There is no question that parents needs to take responsibility for what their children are exposed to. However, the game design companies also need to be more responsible in what they sell to the masses. These companies are showing the same traits that drug dealers show in selling narcotics; if they have the money, they will sell it to anyone.
It's very easy to load blame on the parents. But if both parents must work in order to make an acceptable standard of living for their family, the parenting job becomes more difficult. Most of us remember a time when at least one parent was at home taking care of the children. Discipline was easier to enforce back then because someone was around. Today, we no longer have that luxury.
The game companies need to be responsible too. A rating system would at least let the parents know that that game may not be suitable for their child. This rating system must be enforced by the retailer also. It's not much to ask. I understand that children tend to find a way to get at what they want. But if the pressure is applied by the aware parents, fewer and fewer children will pursue those games.

KingMob
12-11-2003, 05:59 PM
the game companies already have a rating system buddy.

Your comment about the game companies acting like drug dealers is wrong...

its the actual retailers who turn a blind eye to the rating system.

Tho I still say parents should be aware of what the kids are doing, in and out of the home...if the kids want to play a violent game or see a nudie mag at a young age, it IS going to happen, no parent should think they can really control the kids that much.

What they need to do is raise a child who could see these gaems and not think its an appropriate way of life...

Simply tellign a kid not to play a game is only going to make them want it more, but teaching a child actual morals, tho requiring a lot more effort, will make sure that kid wont turn out being afected by that stuff.

a lot of parents dont seem to grasp this tho... but luckily some do.

Aikisean
12-11-2003, 06:36 PM
Well then maybe the rating system should be made into law.

So, if I'm wrong about the behavior of game companies, are you saying that it's ok to create games that are easily assesible by children which portray violence and sex in a graphically realistic manner?
The industry has known that violence and strong sexual overtones increase sales for roughly 20 years. With the improvement of game graphics, so too has violence and sexual protrayals increased in number.
Responsibility needs to be taken by both the industry as well as the parents.
These games create an environment where violence is portrayed as ok. Continued exposure to this simulated environment over many years leaves a mark on children. These children may not become violent themselves but they do become dispassionate to others, seeing violence as nothing serious.
Violence has many forms; murder, rape, abuse... The game industry has shown very clearly that those thing can be easily simulated and sold. Now, it's time that the industry show how easy it is to be responsible. Who knows, maybe some parents will get the message as well.

KingMob
12-11-2003, 06:42 PM
nope nothing wrong with creating it at all.

whats wrong is selling it to kids..I agree. Marketing to kids to. I have noticed some ads in magazines such a maxim for games that are more explecit that you wont find in a , say for example, nintendo power.

I think, like movies, it should be a STRICTLY enforced form of entertianment. Kids WILL still get their hands on it tho, just like they get their hands on anything, at that point the parent must be involved in the childs life. Even comic books have mature lines now, that kids just shouldnt get their hands on, but I am very very happy they make it.

So once again I mostly blame retailers who readily sell games with mature tags to kids (not all do sellt hem tho). But above that I blame parents who are not involved in their kids life.

But like I said before, these groups who are giving info to parents are NOT a bad thing, they ar einforming parents about a subject they dont know much about.

faithrenee
12-11-2003, 06:59 PM
KingMob,

You're wrong about some of the game industry designers. Some of them are a bunch of narcotic drug dealers - just out to make money - no other goal in mind but to exploit sex and violence. I salute the companies that do not exploit sex and violence even though the sales are not as high as the ones that do.

The game industry is the source and that is where you need to end the problem. Yes there are ratings but if no one is enforcing them - then they aren't doing much good.

I know it is this way in the music industry and the television industry as well, but games are young. I really would like to see them take a different turn than like all the rest.

faithrenee
12-11-2003, 07:02 PM
KingMob,

Sorry I misunderstood what you said before. I thought you were agreeing that it is okay to sell it to kids. Sorry so harsh. Your demo reel is good. Good models and texture maps.

PhilOsirus
12-11-2003, 07:19 PM
If the rating systems are not being enforced it isn't the problem of the gamming industry.

But anyway back on topic. I can just see myself being looked at as a complete luncatic psychopath as I enter the "Killographic" section of a movie/videogame store.

Aikisean
12-11-2003, 07:31 PM
Sorry, I am COMPELLED to reply.

Everyone loves a scape-goat, right? NOT ME! It's too easy to place blame on one aspect and ignore the others. If we are to take care of our children, then there are three parties that should share in the responsibility:

Parents
The Industry
The Retailers

The rating system must be enforced by ALL THREE.

The is definitely not a one man job. Even this country cannot be taken care of by just the President of the United States, but by an entire government. So too is the responsibility for taking care of our children. The big picture must be looked at.

Trust me on this: this problem is going to get uglier if it is not taken care of soon.

KingMob
12-11-2003, 07:39 PM
Aikisean

I agree, maybe not with the exact order, but with the context..its what i was trying to say before.


I do NOT thinkt he game industry/designers are "narcotic drug pushers" tho, interested in making money? yes.

BTW i might agree with your comment on the Publishers a bit more then the designers.

As has been said, the industry is young, and a lot of things have to be ironed out quick.

I could go on and on ont he subject, but I have said what i needed to...

faithrenee, btw thanks for the words on my demo...I should have a new version pretty soon with a lot more stuff.

rudipooimf
12-11-2003, 07:58 PM
Violent children and teens have nothing to do with the parents and everything to do with video games they play, yea right! For alot of kids video games are the way parents get out of parenting. Sit the kids down in front of the TV for a few hours while you polish your nails or whatever. Why don't these "non-profit" organizations find something important to do like the war on drugs like when i was a kid...lol

Nimrodicus
12-11-2003, 08:10 PM
Sorry if the following should be it's own thread, but it was this thread that gave me the following idea (good or bad you decide...)

How about setting up future game systems w/ a ratings lock-out system similar to the infamous V-Chip in many TV's these days? The current ratings system would possibly need to be made a bit more detailed - i.e. A game rated M(ature) should also include WHY it's rated that way (Graphic Violence, Sexual Content etc.) The rating tag would need to be included in the program code or medium in some way that the hardware could recognize the games rating. The parent can then set the game console up to SPECIFICALLY limit the types of content they do/don't want their children to play. Places the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the parents and not on the retailers, and no worries about what the kiddies are playing behind closed doors (well, um, with respect to video games anyway...) I still think where there's a will there's a way, but I must say I have certain things locked out on my TV to prevent my 8 year old from viewing them and it's password protected. To the best of my knowledge it hasn't been circumvented as of yet. A little late in the game to use this system for video games perhaps due to the volume of games already in existence but never say never.

That's my good/bad idea. Ok now let'er rip folks...

Nimrodicus

mirror
12-11-2003, 08:14 PM
mmmm.... snuff games! I can only think of one or two games, (OK, just tetris) that don't involve killing things. I have to say it the easiest way to depict victory on a limited medium such as computers. I mean they're dead! end of story! however with all that computational power becoming available we should see some novel new ways to "win" in a game. Hopefully... until then of course lets just blame the parents and bring out multitudes of dead boring clones of quake3.

scene215
12-11-2003, 08:31 PM
I have to agree with Kingmob. It all boils down to the parents instilling in their kids head rights and wrongs of life. Feed them morals. Thats all. I would have no problem with my kids playing GTA or some other "Killographic" game like that just as long they understood that its "NOT REAL", because if it was real your ass would be locked up and/or worse. Of course dont get me wrong, I wouldn't have an 8 yr old playing these games either. I think they would be better of with the gamecube and nintendos list of kid friendly games.

Ratings are there for a reason and retailers should follow them like theaters and liqour stores follow there ratings and age limits. That would weed out alot of these kids buying or renting the games, but then they could also just get someone older to get it for them.

I've had my share of "illegal activities" and I'm sure many others have too, but there is something wrong with someones parenting skills when little Billy picks up daddies loaded 9MM and pops his little buddy Johnny in the head just because he was playing GTA(True Story) People are quick to blame others instead of taking it upon themselves for their f@ck up.

It actually seems like 6 degrees of separation in my opinion.
Joe kills a Haitian and at his house is a copy of GTA:VC. Must be the video game that made him do it.

Sarah decapitates her cat and at her house is a copy of Slayer "God Hates us All". Seems satanic, must be the music.

Etc..

Here is a nice question to ask the staticians and governmentals out there.

"How many people committed acts of murder or violence after watching any of the Faces of Death films?"

faithrenee
12-11-2003, 08:34 PM
p

heavyness
12-11-2003, 09:45 PM
doesn't matter how many laws are passed and how many safeguards you put on games, kids will still get them.

if you pass a law saying mature games can only be bought on odd months, even days, between two and three o'clock in the morning by someone who is over 45 and must be bought at the local police station, kids will still get them.

and the only people that can control and govern kids our their damn parents. get it! why run around the fact? go straight to the highest form of enforcement, the parents.

is it legal for kids under 16 to have semi automatic guns and drugs? it is illegal? then why do they have them? how did they get these illegal things?…

AnimBot
12-11-2003, 11:02 PM
What is wrong with everyone? I just read the article and aside from the name "killographic" sounding stupid I can't find any fault in this. Yet from reading the responses in this thread it almost sounds like someone was putting out a law against violent games. Yes everyone blames games and music and blah, blah, blah for problems. On the other hand everyone else blames the parents. Here is a case where they are trying to make the public, mainly the parents, aware of ratings and violence in games that they may not want there kids to view. So for those of you blaming parents how could you be upset when someone's trying to provide parents tools on wich to judge what they should get for their children? No one's being hurt no one is being prevented from doing anything so why over react?

KingMob
12-12-2003, 01:48 AM
anim bot:

read my first post,

I said it was good thing...its informing parents about violent games.. I agree its funny to watch people get up in arms over it.

But i think people have taken this, and its become more the idea of parents vs developers vs retailers...

I agree, I think its a good thing they sent that letter thing...

And i even like kill-o-graphic..reminds me of futurama...fun names to say :)

PhilOsirus
12-12-2003, 01:50 AM
Well I do find it wrong to use the word "killographic". It is offensive because it implies that I am a consumer of media that focusses on murder. That means all army videogames, all ninja videogames, all games where people get killed are labeled "killographic". If we do this with games we therefore have to do the same with the same kinds of movies.

KingMob
12-12-2003, 02:08 AM
well phil..hate to say it buy you, like me, ARE into games that focus on murder,

(im also into movies that focus on murder...I tend to like comedy tv tho, go figure)

Maybe we can call it "peacfull resolution impaired" video games.

sorry man..dont get to offended by silly words...thats what causes ridiculous situation like parents suing rockstar games

ON a side note, i dont think to many games should fall into that category... just EXPLECIT games. Like streets of la, and GTA etc.

Not just war related...otherwise gi joe will be killographic. ("now with killographic grip" I kind of like that.)

GRMac13
12-12-2003, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by AnimBot
Here is a case where they are trying to make the public, mainly the parents, aware of ratings and violence in games that they may not want there kids to view. So for those of you blaming parents how could you be upset when someone's trying to provide parents tools on wich to judge what they should get for their children? No one's being hurt no one is being prevented from doing anything so why over react?

I think the hostility here stems from the fact that this new "term" isn't designed to simply inform parents that a game contains mature subject matter, but to perpetuate the myth that your kid playing these games is the equivalent him being raised in a terrorist training camp. There already is a very good content-based ratings system in place that is an excellent tool for any parent to determine whether or not a game is appropriate for their child. What's the difference between an "M" rated game and a "killographic" game? Well, when the time comes that this or that group decides they want to have a game completely banned (as in, taken off the shelves), they'll have a much easier time gaining public support when they use a word such as "killographic" rather than "rated mature." The former works to demonize the game, while the latter simply informs that the content is intended for mature individuals. I don't see any positive results coming from the coining of this new phrase. It just seems like a pathetic attempt to sensationalize an already over-hyped issue. Use the ratings system, and convince vendors to enforce them, but don't act as though these games are the bane of human existance.

I think most of us are just sick and tired of this obscene overreaction. There is just as much (and sometimes more) graphic violence in many films. So why can't the term "killographic" be used to describe them? Can you imagine having to go into the equivalent of the "porno section" at your local Blockbuster to rent the latest Aliens, Terminator or LOTR movie? Games are a new medium and have apparently replaced film and music as a scape-goat for youth violence. Hopefully a new form of media will emerge soon to take the heat off the gaming industry. It's just a matter of time.

AnimBot
12-12-2003, 03:48 AM
I think the hostility here stems from the fact that this new "term" isn't designed to simply inform parents that a game contains mature subject matter, but to perpetuate the myth that your kid playing these games is the equivalent him being raised in a terrorist training camp. There already is a very good content-based ratings system in place that is an excellent tool for any parent to determine whether or not a game is appropriate for their child. What's the difference between an "M" rated game and a "killographic" game? Well, when the time comes that this or that group decides they want to have a game completely banned (as in, taken off the shelves), they'll have a much easier time gaining public support when they use a word such as "killographic" rather than "rated mature." The former works to demonize the game, while the latter simply informs that the content is intended for mature individuals. I don't see any positive results coming from the coining of this new phrase. It just seems like a pathetic attempt to sensationalize an already over-hyped issue. Use the ratings system, and convince vendors to enforce them, but don't act as though these games are the bane of human existance.

Well stated GRMac13. My point is however that it doesn't matter what they call it I'm only going to be concerned when they want to prevent me from purchasing these games when they have no right to. Until it reaches that point I really don't care if they label it "Kill Orgy". If parents want to feel the false sense of security behind "killographic" let them live in their ignorant bliss. For parents who do pay attention to what their kids are playing this at least tells them it is most definately not for kids. My understanding is that this label is being used to describe excesively violent games. As for the M rating I have to say there is a world of difference between a game like Maxpayne and a game like Manhunt. I have no problem at all with someone making a distinction between the two. As for the label demonizing the game look at the explicit lyrics label on CDs the labels were all opposed to that now they wear it like a badge of honor. The hook for games that would fall under this category is the violence and gore I could only see this label benefiting them.
Seriosly this is all semantics no need for everyone to get all excited about it.

ambient-whisper
12-12-2003, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by lone
never underestimate the power of PEER PRESSURE,

what about peer pressure? as long as nobody is forcing you to do stuff, you dont have to. there used to be a drug dealer a few houses down from me, and i knew the guy for a while during highschool. did others try to pressure the stuff onto me? sure but i didnt give in. a few people that used to live around here were enough inspiration for me not to give in.

PhilOsirus
12-12-2003, 04:56 PM
No I don't play games that "focuss" on killing. Tenchu is a ninja simulator, and as such you have the possibility to kill enemies (or by pass them when possible). It's just an exemple, but right now the only game I know of that could have the label "killographic" would be Manhunt. Quite pointless. Just stick to the ratings as they are today. It's writen on it "blood and gore" and other such labels. Just enforce that, period.

Keiyentai
12-16-2003, 07:57 AM
*twitches* ok I have had it will the damn crap about "Violent games" and how the "screw" people up....I have been playing Violent games since I was like 4. I remewber being 5 in Utah Playing NARC in the arcade....Then in '92 I was introduced to the fathr of all violent videogames and the reason why the ESRB was created. Mortal Kombat. Ever semnce I have been addicted. THe game I am working on is going to be a blood bath. A MMORPG with BLOOD AND GORE. SO help me if the label the game "Killographic" I'm goign to laugh and be pissed at the same time. I think it's stupid that sopme one say "oh I saw some one do it in the game so I wanted to do it" I mean come on! Thats like me saying "Oh I wana take Karate now so I can learn how to uppercut some ones head off like Johny Cage in MOrtal Kombat!" little stupid ya think?

Personaly I think the ERSB and parents are goingto far. It's a parents responcablity to make sure there kid doesent play a "M" rated game if they dont want. The thing is though one way or another the kid is going to play it. If senitore Liberman becomes president (I am praying he doesent) Games will no longer have violence in them probaly. SInce he was the FOunder of the ESRB. Him and Hillery Clinton...in '92...*shutters* How I loathe them....

I think we as CGartists need to show everyone what we do is ART. When we make games it's a FORM OF OUR ART. I can see some limitations. Like a game on how to rape or something that's not art thats ust messed up. Though a violent game is just a darker form of art. If the ESRB could rate what goes on in my head it would be like "M A/O" Mature Adults Only.....or something to that extent...anywho I am ranting again...I'm sorry I just can't stand videogame censoreship or the bull that parents put out....

AnimBot
12-16-2003, 05:24 PM
Keiyentai I'm curios why would you consider a game that encourages you to kill someone by pulling out their heart, or punching their head off to be art but a game about raping someone not to be considered art?

GRMac13
12-16-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by AnimBot
Keiyentai I'm curios why would you consider a game that encourages you to kill someone by pulling out their heart, or punching their head off to be art but a game about raping someone not to be considered art?

I'm alittle confused as to why people keep bringing up this fictious soon-to-be-made game that centers on rape? Why would anyone want to make a game where the goal is to rape someone!? This game will never get made, so stop using it as a red herring in all these arguments.

Consider this, violence in games, no matter how graphic or brutal it may be, is justifiable in some way. It's justifiable in the game just as it is sometimes justifiable in real-life. Self-defense, war, sports, etc. are all situations where real-life violence is justified. As such, the public is ready to accept violence in a game as a logical solution within the context of the game. On the other hand, acts such as rape, infanticide, etc. are NEVER justifiable in reality. The public at large cannot imagine any real-life situation where such acts would be acceptable. Therefore, they will not accept any fictional situations where such acts are acceptable either.

Please stop using the "rape card." It's just an absurd distraction from the facts.

Keiyentai
12-16-2003, 06:42 PM
Call me stragne but death and violence in a fictious world to me is art. Least I know the defference between fiction and reality. Bah. I'm not trying to use the rape card either I was just trying to point something out I know a game like that would never be released. Besides a little violent game never hurt anyone. Actucaly helps me get my agression out :surprised

Agent D
12-16-2003, 10:35 PM
I got a chuckle out of this, and despite it's stupidity, I'll live with it (and maybe use it as a positive description, like King Mob said ;))

As for my thinking on this: Sure, I have no problem with restricting M-rated games for sale to kids under 16 or 18, but it should not be illegal for them to play the games, just buy them. My only concern with "Killographic" is that their agenda is to put a lot of violent games into a similar catagory as pornography, in which the laws are much stricter regarding age limits, etc, making it illegal to view or purchase for a minor.

While I agree some games should not be accessible to younger or less mature people, I wouldn't want to see a game restricted because a commitee who's never played it decides it's too gory. Deny sales to minors if you want, just let parents make the final decision.

halo
12-16-2003, 10:48 PM
i'm pretty certain that governing bodies have to review a game to rate it...

Agent D
12-16-2003, 11:29 PM
Yes, but it's entirely too subjective, and "review" doesn't always mean play. Let me give you an example:

Hypothetically(and hopefully not too far off topic), imagine if there was a catagory of "killographic" games which were illegal for minors to play, and a commitee was responsible for listening to the content of games and voting to include them into that catagory.

One point presented agaisnt a game is: "The player can torture and mutilates dead bodies in a graphical and realistic manner."

Someone who hadn't really played the game may think that's horrible and no minor should have access to it. However, the truth may be that the game simply has damage affects, and dead bodies react to being shot. (An actual example of complaints I've heard used)

Here's a quote describing GTA: Vice City from that report: "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, in which gratuitous violence toward women and police is rewarded and discrimination against the Haitian community is encouraged." That sounds bad(killographic!!111), but anyone who has actually played it knows it's simply not true.

*Edit* Look how incompetent they are: (http://www.mediafamily.org/research/report_vgrc_2003-2.shtml) They put Max Payne 2 above Postal 2 in the "do not buy" list. Even they're not playing the games they warn against.

Keiyentai
12-17-2003, 02:43 AM
:banghead: :curious: .....those people are stupid.....realy stupid. DOA Extreme Beach Volley Ball should be rated AO?? there is like a 15 second shot of nudity and you cant see all that much....and there clothed for the rest of the game...urgh......Groups like that piss me off. Postal II on the bottom of the list..I have the demo and THATS graphic. Crap you can piss on people let alone knock there head off with a shovel and keep hitting it like a ball :D it's fun hehehe but no DOA EBV is TO ADULT.

AnimBot
12-17-2003, 09:22 AM
GRMac13 I hope when quoting me you realize that this issue was started by Keiyentai and not myself. Really I asked the question to point out the absurdity of the statement. While I'm not going to attempt to define art I would say that many people including people on this board hide behind the wall of art as if to justify the games they play. The problem I have with this argument in most cases is by using art to defend these games it implys these games are of more value or importance than they actually are. While I think the issue of when to use violence is subjective for the most part I agree with you. People can accept violence as being a reasonable way of terminating a problem in most games where as something like rape does not seem plausible. However that doesn't mean it won't be done. Lets consider other forms of media. In movies like Kill Bill, Man Bites Dog and Pulp Fiction there are rape scenes that serve as humor for the films. I'm sure many of you have heard Eminem's music in references to raping family members which seems to serve as some self therepy. I'm sorry for not having other examples these are the ones I can draw from the top of my head but even doing a quick search online on the subject gets frightening results. You get the point however gaming as an industry is still young just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it won't be. This especially if it's embrased as a form of art.
There's one more thing I would like to draw attention to before I go. Brainstorming ideas for games start out with the gameplay or idea of what you will be doing in a game. Unless the story is crucial to gameplay the idea of what you will be doing in game is developed first and story formed around it. This of course is going on the assumption that it's an original IP being developed. Lets say I'm making "Kill Those Guys 2004" the idea is to have a wrestling arena where I have to chop guys legs off to gain points the person left with the most legs at the end wins. He or she then gets to finish everyone else off for bonus points:) Now my goal is to have this game be as gory and bloody as possible but of course the public isn't going to accept a game where I just throw them in the arena and have them dismember and kill each other. So I'll say that all the people in the arena at one point or another wronged you in your childhood or something. Now of course I realize I'm going a little over the top. What I'm trying to say is with this kind of game the justification is being manufactured so you the audience can accept the killing and the developers don't look like psychos.
The fact is I like alot of vioent games but I always question what I'm taking in regardless of media. For some reason many people here almost seem to view that as a bad thing blindly ingesting whatever's thrown at them becuase it's "art",or it's "fun". It's not bad to question things people. How else will we grow?

halo
12-17-2003, 12:17 PM
agent d - im pretty certain they aren't saying they "review" games like mags do...certainly in the uk, for example, the film board who rates films has to sit and watch all of a film that is asking for clearance and rating (which is every film to hit the market)...i would think that its the same with games. They surely must have played all the game to formulate a rating, rather than just a quick glimpse.

PhilOsirus
12-17-2003, 05:59 PM
From what I know they don't sit throught a whole game or else it would take forever to watch someone play FF (or 60 hours long Xenogears!:p). Usually someone makes a video of various parts of the game, including the potential events that could raise the rating. That is because a game that contains violence won't see its rating go down because you can make lolipops at some point in the game;)

Agent D
12-17-2003, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
From what I know they don't sit throught a whole game or else it would take forever to watch someone play FF (or 60 hours long Xenogears!:p). Usually someone makes a video of various parts of the game, including the potential events that could raise the rating.

Which is why it's not very accurate. If people saw a video of the main character of GTA going around hitting women with a baseball bat, stabbing policeman, and the mission objective "Kill the haitians"(the attacking haitian mob in context), they wouldn't exactly get a good picture of the whole game.

PhilOsirus
12-17-2003, 09:34 PM
Well it is accurate for the rating system. They don't review the games. They make up a rating system and it can only go upward. So they have to draw out all the points in the game that contain violence/corse language/etc so a rating can be made. It doesn't matter if it is logical/realistic. If there is violence the rating goes up. You know I could make a movie above Santa Claus but if it contains a graphic sex scene of Santa and Miss Santa in it the rating will go up. It's only logical.

Keiyentai
12-18-2003, 03:27 AM
.......ok to set one thing STRAIGHT I NEVER SAID I PROMOTED RAPE! I promote videogame violence there is a BIG DIFFERENCE. I don't promote Racism either. I just like Blood and GORE I dont see why everyone is so up tight about some one getting killed in a game....watch the news in North West Washington. Almost every night "Some one was found dead in the Tacoma area today, police think it was murder" or "A man was shot today in Seattle" ect ect. We see it on TV. There's movies where people are getting blown to bits by gernades. Saving Private Ryan is probaly one of the most graphic movies I have seen in a long time if ever but nope everyone loved it cuase it was a "World War II" Movie and reflected on what happened....so what.....yes I honor the vets and men and women that served in WWII but just cuase it happened in real life over 40 years ago and they make a movie on how violent it was is no different then making a game with some one getting shot in the head.

It pisses me off that people have to go off on game makers idea's but some jerk makes a film based on "a real life event" and everyone loves it but make a game on "gangs" or "Kill this person in x amount of time" everyone is like OH MY GOD!! ahhh! Some one think of the Children!.....it's stupid.

PhilOsirus
12-18-2003, 04:08 PM
So by that way of thinking, I could hit you on the head with a crowbar for fun, it is as toleratable as a police officer shooting a criminal, right? Just because it is depicted in a videogame you can't expect people to just throw off their moral values.

hp_deluxe
12-18-2003, 05:17 PM
hi to all,


im new here and just want to remind u all that we in germany have a strong rating system as long as i can think and it just have been reworked some months ago to match the requirements of todays media(it's an old law that only includes words like media now especially games and so on) , and for games-playin kids and teens it never was a real problem to get these games...

even if they control everything here in germany (C&C: generals was only available for 18+ like EVERY game that shows violent against humans or humanlike character)


u can blame the parents, the industry, the laws or whatever u want...but that's the same mistake thats every goverment usually makes,......blame 1 thing for all and do everything against it...

i wonder more WHY there's such a big interest of (very)young people in violence and sex, today? is it only because it's easy to get it today? because we have more chances to get and see it wherever we want?
this must have some bigger psychological reasons...i think. ...and we have to search for that and THERE we will find the answer...u allways have to search at the roots of a problem,....rating or blaming only hides a problem, it doesn't really helps.


hannes


ps: don't forget the internet, that u can't control...usually all kids here just download the games they can't get,...there's no need to ask the big brother or older friend today(but this is also very famous here). 1-2 guys with DSL or higher can supply a whole school class with cracked software, KILLOGRAPHIC games, and pornography. and no parent, teacher or... will usually notice it...
some of them would even pay for it, if it was possible...



sorry for my english

Keiyentai
12-18-2003, 10:10 PM
NO....I'm saying it's better to do it in a game so it deosent RESULT IN REAL LIFE senerios. I play violent games to get my anger out. Now for the people that see it and go and do it in real life has ISSUES VER BAD ISSUES and probaly need very heavy meds. All I'm saying is it's nothing new there has been violent games in the past and it's getting STUPID that people are trying to get rid of them cuase IT WONT WORK.

hp_deluxe
12-19-2003, 12:06 AM
...on the other hand i really would like to see the faces of these stupid peoples after forbidding every game and movie or whatever...

...and still having bad statistics for murder, rapes and crime.


then they would blame the tv-stations like the did it before computer gaming became popular. (this fact is interisting, because i think that's why TV and many other types of media is supporting the idea of "a KILLOGRAPHIC game turns your little nice child into a murderer" is that THEY don't want to be blamed...)


think about it

GRMac13
12-19-2003, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by AnimBot
GRMac13 I hope when quoting me you realize that this issue was started by Keiyentai and not myself. Really I asked the question to point out the absurdity of the statement.

I know you didn't bring it up, but it's been flying around a few of these "violence in games" threads, and it's been bothering me. Sorry if it seemed like I was ranting at you, that wasn't my intention.

Originally posted by AnimBot
While I'm not going to attempt to define art I would say that many people including people on this board hide behind the wall of art as if to justify the games they play. The problem I have with this argument in most cases is by using art to defend these games it implys these games are of more value or importance than they actually are.

This argument is pointless to have, because by it's nature it's very subjective. As such, we'll never be able to logically debate it considering that everyone defines "art' in a different way. However, at the very least, you cannot deny the value and importance of games within popular culture. Games are more popular among certain demographics than TV and film combined. I'd hardly call them "unimportant."

I'll conclude my comments on this subject as such: If film is considered art and music is considered art, they why on Earth would you not consider games to be art as well? After all, to create a game one needs to incorporate many ideas and techniques from the "arts" such as writing, film-making, music, fine art, digital art, animation, acting, etc., etc. Games are definitely an art, but the level of value or importance you assign to that art is up to the individual.

Originally posted by AnimBot
People can accept violence as being a reasonable way of terminating a problem in most games where as something like rape does not seem plausible. However that doesn't mean it won't be done. Lets consider other forms of media. In movies like Kill Bill, Man Bites Dog and Pulp Fiction there are rape scenes that serve as humor for the films. I'm sure many of you have heard Eminem's music in references to raping family members which seems to serve as some self therepy. I'm sorry for not having other examples these are the ones I can draw from the top of my head but even doing a quick search online on the subject gets frightening results. You get the point however gaming as an industry is still young just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it won't be. This especially if it's embrased as a form of art.

If someone includes a rape scene in thier game that serves the story, I see no problem with it at all. Many films deal with the issue of rape tastefully and honestly, so what's the difference if it's dealt with in a game like "Mafia" or "Max Payne" or "The Getaway" (which are presented as interactive films in their own right)? On the other hand, as I said earilier, I dont think we'll ever see a game wherein the player's primary objective is to rape as many people as possible. Especially if the rape is being presented as funny or humorous. I'd be the first one to speak out against a game that does that, but as I said, if it's dealt with in a mature and sophisticated manner, then I have no problem with it. It's just another aspect of humanity that, although despicable, can add drama, tension or fear to a story.

Originally posted by AnimBot
There's one more thing I would like to draw attention to before I go. Brainstorming ideas for games start out with the gameplay or idea of what you will be doing in a game. Unless the story is crucial to gameplay the idea of what you will be doing in game is developed first and story formed around it. This of course is going on the assumption that it's an original IP being developed. Lets say I'm making "Kill Those Guys 2004" the idea is to have a wrestling arena where I have to chop guys legs off to gain points the person left with the most legs at the end wins. He or she then gets to finish everyone else off for bonus points:) Now my goal is to have this game be as gory and bloody as possible but of course the public isn't going to accept a game where I just throw them in the arena and have them dismember and kill each other. So I'll say that all the people in the arena at one point or another wronged you in your childhood or something. Now of course I realize I'm going a little over the top. What I'm trying to say is with this kind of game the justification is being manufactured so you the audience can accept the killing and the developers don't look like psychos.

Or you could just base the game in Ancient Rome and have the players be Gladiators. ;)

There are PLENTY of movies out there that do the exact same thing. Violence, and/or blood and gore splashed all over the screen, with a joke of story to tie it together and make it marketable. Just look at any teen slasher movie or Jean-Claude Van Damme action flick. This wont ever change until the tastes of the audience change.

Originally posted by AnimBot
The fact is I like alot of vioent games but I always question what I'm taking in regardless of media. For some reason many people here almost seem to view that as a bad thing blindly ingesting whatever's thrown at them becuase it's "art",or it's "fun". It's not bad to question things people. How else will we grow?

I never said it was bad to question things, I said it was bad to censor things and to condemn people for partaking in them. If you think something is despicable and worthless trash, by all means express your opinion (although I'd also suggest you express your right to stay away from the material that is offending you so that you wont have to be offended anymore.) I never said you have to "blindly ingest" everything either.. In fact I wont play games like Manhuint because I think it's a big waste of time and a mindless excuse for violence. I also think brussels sprouts are repulsive. Do you se me trying to ban them or develop some sort of keyword to spread my message? Maybe "vomitastic" is a good word for brussels sprouts, but how would the brussels sprouts lovers of the world feel when they have to go to the "vomitastic" asile in the supermarket to get their treats? Live and let live, that's my motto. You think the game's too violent, dont play it. But dont try to ruin someone else's good time by making them feels like social deviants either.

PhilOsirus
12-19-2003, 01:34 PM
On the other hand, as I said earilier, I dont think we'll ever see a game wherein the player's primary objective is to rape as many people as possible.

Because you would tolerate one where raping is simply not the main objective? I doubt 5 years ago anyone would have believe a game would have hit the market where you get sexual-ish gratifying comments directly in your hear every time you kill someone by strangling them with a plastic bag at three levels of brutality over and over and over and over again with this as the ONLY part of the gameplay too.

GRMac13
12-19-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Phil "Osirus"
Because you would tolerate one where raping is simply not the main objective? I doubt 5 years ago anyone would have believe a game would have hit the market where you get sexual-ish gratifying comments directly in your hear every time you kill someone by strangling them with a plastic bag at three levels of brutality over and over and over and over again with this as the ONLY part of the gameplay too.

Like I said if the game included a scene depicting rape that was crucial to the story and presented in a tasteful, mature manner I would indeed tolerate it. Just as I tolerate the same sort of content when it's presented in another medium, such as a film or novel. If it's in there simply for shock value, then I wouldn't feel comfortable with it and probably wouldn't play the game.

As for the Manhunt comment, I'm not surprised at all that this game was made. Graphic violence has been part of games for a long time, so it's only natural to see the content become increasingly controversial. Violence sells, so rockstar just figured to include as much of it as possible to try to generate more sales. Rape, on the other hand is unjustifiable in any imaginable circumstance in games (and in reality), and therefore there's little risk that a game will come out which capitalizes on it in the same manner that Manhunt captializes on violence.

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