CGTalk - Where is elegance in new LW 8 interface?

leigh

12-09-2003, 11:38 PM

I personally hated the brushed steel look of LightWave 6 and LightWave 7 - I think it looks tacky. I hate "pretty" interfaces, and have never really understood the necessity for them.

Interfaces should be plain and purely functional, in my opinion.

From what I've seen of LightWave 8's interface, I think it's definitely a step in the right direction.
I think that 5.6's interface was the best ever :drool:

5TEF

12-09-2003, 11:44 PM

idem for me Leigh :)

archiea

12-10-2003, 12:10 AM

well, I say no bevels or extensive outlining. I think the retro 5.6 look is way too cluttered. And it looks ole the way Mirage looks old. There were some great proposals at the NT forum site. You should check it out....

Jonathan

12-10-2003, 01:04 AM

I like my UI with flat colors, usually gray and no bells and whistles. I like the simplicity of lightwave's UI as it doesn't get in the way of design. Screen clutter is what I dislike about a UI. Max and Maya both I think are overly cluttered. XSI has a sweet UI though. I was very comfy with XSI demo.

Freak

12-10-2003, 01:11 AM

I don't really care too much of the athetics of the Interface as much as the function that it provides.....

The problem i have is it takes me days to configure my Interface,
I would really like a drag and drop interface.....

The problem is in 6x and 7x the colours are clipped (you can't use black) can't change all of the colors.... (text etc)
You have to guess colour schemes via RGB numbers in the configs,
It's all rather clumsey really....

Skins or preset interfaces is really the only way you're going to keep everyone happy.... (and even then, you can only please some of the people some of the time.)

I don't believe the level of customization will ever be fantastic in LW, because of the underlying Xpanels setup...
But it's too cluttered as it is now.....

I have way too many plugins and Lscripts, and nowhere to put buttons for them..... Some keyboard shortcuts are not changable.... I could increase my workflow speed dramatically
with better customization.

As it is i have to write Lscripts and plugins to put all my common tools and buttons on the one panel, like AA and renderopts...
Which sucks because not all the options are Lscriptable...
I have to use long workarounds just to group similar tools together....... Arrrrgghhhhh!!!

Any extra effort to tidy it up and make it slicker is most welcome.
I don't know what the final interface will look like, but at least they made an effort and listened to the people.....

Rant mode: Off

takkun

12-10-2003, 01:21 AM

What I would like to know is what was the deal with the 6.0 interface:

http://personal.southern.edu/~dascott/lwhistory/Large/1999-LW60-layout.jpg

Those buttons just look ridiculously shiny to me!

By contrast, I love the new LW 8 UI design.

Ubik, I would love for you to use your great design sense and create a UI mockup for Lightwave. That would be great!

Ubik

12-10-2003, 01:38 AM

takkun, those are screenshots of LW[6] beta, fimal interface was much more "flat", and even this way it looks much better than current LW 8 UI.Sadly I'm too busy (been for 6 months 12 hours workplace) for Photoshop editing, though there was time I was thinking on trying something out.

Leigh, plain and functional doesn't mean ugly at the same time. Take a look on revised VX interface screenshots from Matt, plain and beautiful, or take XSi. 5.x interface looks much better than LW8's

Colours should be User chosen and changeable through main interface not .cfg editing. I don't think that it is impossible to implement such thing right now.
In LW 6,7 colours were very wisely chosen though. Not intrusive yet distinctive. Meni had UI colour variation that worked just as well and was based on the same principe LW original UI was.
I didn't like slide bars don't like them now even more.

Karmacop

12-10-2003, 02:02 AM

I agree, lw 8 looks very flat and boring compared to lw6-7. Maybe remove the brushed metal, but the shading on the buttons looked good.

takkun

12-10-2003, 02:21 AM

and even this way it looks much better than current LW 8 UI :eek: Are you saying that you rather have the ultra shiny, incredibly blinding, covered in tanning oil, LW 6 beta UI then the new LW 8 UI?

ok dude.

CIM

12-10-2003, 02:21 AM

Changing the color and style of buttons isn't going to fix the workflow and useability issues in LightWave (Layout).

takkun

12-10-2003, 02:23 AM

Changing the color and style of buttons isn't going to fix the workflow and useability issues in LightWave (Layout). * takkun says "duh" in a valley girl voice.

Psyhke

12-10-2003, 02:25 AM

Well, hold on here... has anyone actually *tried* it? Hmm?

I'm gonna go try.... YELLOW BUTTONS!!

minus

12-10-2003, 02:25 AM

I like how the new interface has flat colors and no gradients on the buttons. --- However I wish they would decrease the bevels on the buttons.

minimalism in all things... (see my username).

LNT

12-10-2003, 02:28 AM

I dont know they keep telling us for months now that they're using a WIP GUI for lw8 screenshots but I like the current colour scheme better than what I've seen of 8 so far

on the other hand,some users have made some really great photoshop mockups but not likely that they'll be used

takkun

12-10-2003, 02:28 AM

However I wish they would decrease the bevels on the buttons. minus, I think they're currently 1-pixel bevels, I can't be sure without blowing it up in photoshop.I dont know they keep telling us for months now that they're using a WIP GUI for lw8 screenshots but I like the current colour scheme better than what I've seen of 8 so farLNT, Not sure if you've seen them but the most recent screenshots seem to have the same color scheme as lightwave has currently. http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14582&pagenumber=1

wgreenlee1

12-10-2003, 02:33 AM

marking menus,tear off panels,channel box editor
who needs a interface 'inyerface'?

Psyhke

12-10-2003, 02:46 AM

Originally posted by minus
minimalism in all things... (see my username).

Then shouldn't your name be - ? ;)

HowardM

12-10-2003, 03:13 AM

Who cares about the damn colors or bevels! Just give me some g'damn dockable free floating panels! lots of them!
I am SO sick of repeatedly clicking on Light Properties, then Motion Properties, then Camera Props...etc.etc.etc!
PLEASE let me keep open what I want to see!
Ever want to compare the settings of 2 lights? Cant, sorry, gotta switch between the 2, cant have them both open in front of you...
oyyy.
you all know what I mean?!

minus

12-10-2003, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by Psyhke
Then shouldn't your name be - ? ;)
I like the concept.... I've thought about "m-nus" .. though someone else already uses that... (not someone in 3D or on this board... but someone popular in another interest anyway).

kurv

12-10-2003, 03:20 AM

takkun, not exactly... :)

Psyhke

12-10-2003, 03:22 AM

Although, since you're also from Minneapolis, you probably remember how confusing it was when Prince changed his name to a symbol. Everybody would start referring to you as "the 3D artist formerly known as minus", and it would just be confusing... :shrug: :scream:

fastfinger

12-10-2003, 03:24 AM

I want newtek to throw away the old style interface and the army look....
To be beautiful is much better than to be ugly.
To be ugly or beautiful is not a matter of personal preference but public preference when the product is to be sold to many people. And thats the basic rule of the industrial product.

LNT

12-10-2003, 03:54 AM

LNT, Not sure if you've seen them but the most recent screenshots seem to have the same color scheme as lightwave has currently.

well it maybe just me but that looks somewhat duller and the sky blue highlites just dont fit in any of it....it definitely lost some of the seriousness of the current look

I think it need more style....simple but more stylish than that cos style shows thru the tiniest of touches

Krix

12-10-2003, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by CIM
Changing the color and style of buttons isn't going to fix the workflow and useability issues in LightWave (Layout).

Oh yes. But as everybody know here (just because you cannot ignore any opportunity to blame at Lightwave) that you create your models in modeler and do the rest in Maya and rendering with mentalray. This is what you are keep advertising here. So you shouldn't care about the Layout of LW8 because you are not going to use it anyway.

LittleFenris

12-10-2003, 05:00 AM

From the shots in that Newtek forum thread, [8] doesn't look any different in the interface than it does now. Am I missing something?

cgman27

12-10-2003, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by VWTornado
From the shots in that Newtek forum thread, [8] doesn't look any different in the interface than it does now. Am I missing something?

You mean you didn't get the blind faith goggles that come with each copy of Lightwave?

Miyazaki

12-10-2003, 05:40 AM

Originally posted by HowardM

Ever want to compare the settings of 2 lights? Cant, sorry, gotta switch between the 2, cant have them both open in front of you...
oyyy.
you all know what I mean?!
You can compare both with spreadsheet. Anyway it is bothering.

Sil3

12-10-2003, 05:52 AM

Originally posted by VWTornado
From the shots in that Newtek forum thread, [8] doesn't look any different in the interface than it does now. Am I missing something?

I agree to a certain point, in fact to me it seems a backward move instead of a forward move in the UI Design, i dont like the new UI "proposals" presented by Newtek so far, they look clumsy to me, large buttons, dreadfull 90´s style bevels.

I prefer something that guy made with Photoshop, it was slick and it had style, flat is the way to go IMO. An UI should be almost "invisible", it´s there but we simply dont notice it, looking at the new LW 8 wip UI´s i get "lost" looking at those beveled icons.

Just my opinion :wavey:

-JT-

12-10-2003, 05:52 AM

I persnnaly like the new interface, it looks like this CgTalk dark gray with some little touchs of light blue, it seems good for the eyes. :)

LittleFenris

12-10-2003, 05:57 AM

JT - My point is, LW[7] is the same basic neutral grey color, with some colored buttons, just like the [8] screens I've seen. I'm not saying I don't like the way [7.5] is, just saying [8] doesn't look any different.

fez

12-10-2003, 07:16 AM

"Just give me some g'damn dockable free floating panels! lots of them!...
I am SO sick of repeatedly clicking on Light Properties, then Motion Properties, then Camera Props...etc.etc.etc!
PLEASE let me keep open what I want to see!
you all know what I mean?!"

Amen, Howard.

Facial Deluxe

12-10-2003, 07:42 AM

LW 8 will be totaly mental.
You'll work eyes closed, with a pin connected to the back of your neck.
The interface people is discussing about is only for your boss, so that he know's what you're working on.

Meko

12-10-2003, 08:23 AM

i just think if things weres so hidden somtimes..... it would be better.

for egsample, keyboard shortcuts (more of em i mean) would be good i guess...

also, there should be a short cut that works like this

"f4" camera panel pops up (all camera settings switches everything.)
"f5" light properties, same as above
"f6" motion properties.. blah blah

i think that would be nice..... then u dont got to go to the schematic then right click, u just press one button

i knwo im lazy but cmon... if u gotta do it like 100 times in a row it gets a lil tedious.

those r my 2 cents....

Meko

Facial Deluxe

12-10-2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Meko

also, there should be a short cut that works like this

"f4" camera panel pops up (all camera settings switches everything.)
"f5" light properties, same as above
"f6" motion properties.. blah blah
Meko

Press "Shift C" to select camera, then press "p" to pop up Properties

Press "Shift L" to select the light, then press "p" to pop up Properties

Press "M" for Motion options

tsu3000

12-10-2003, 10:44 AM

Not really a mind blowing redesign IMHO. Looks similar to v5.x. Whats the point? Why not leave it alone and spend more time on functionality? Just my opinion.

MorBioS

12-10-2003, 11:32 AM

hehehe
Lw8 interface is ridiculous. Looks like a old lw version or blender interface.
It's not original interface. don't have charm. LW8 interface is very primitive and I didn't think a confortable interface as many lwfanboy said around.
Newtek need a good professional touch on lw8 interface.

cheers

takkun

12-10-2003, 11:56 AM

You guys are right. And since it's too late for them to make a mind blowing, professional super crazy OSX-with-a-bit-of-XP-and-trendwhore ultimate UI (just imagine, I couldn't be seen in public using the LW8 UI, I'd be ridiculed by the cool kids!), I've decided that all is doomed so I'm ditching Lightwave right now, this very minute, for Maya.... ohh, wait.... that has an even worse UI.... umm okay, I'll buy 3DSMAX.... ohh, hmmm, that UI is just plain bad and wrong (badong).... well C4D has a nice interface I've heard..... ohh, they don't have ngons at all, ouch.... hmmmm.....well, I guess I'll have to get XSI... but first I'll have to sell my car.... and my computer.... and some blood.... maybe a kidney... I'll keep you updated. :hmm:

*this post was affected by lack of sleep, psychedelic music, and most of all, boredom. If something doesn't make sense... it's okay, you are not alone...

retinajoy

12-10-2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by CIM
Changing the color and style of buttons isn't going to fix the workflow and useability issues in LightWave (Layout).
Just doing that won't, but Newtek have said that they have improved the workflow too, plus all those lovely new features. The sigraph streams and recent screen shots regarding layout has shown this to be so. I guess you know that anyway, but you like to play devils advocate. The new character setup workflow looks as if it will beat other competitor packages inc your fav one :thumbsup:

But really, until it is released and on our hard drives a lot is just speculation.

CIM

12-10-2003, 10:16 PM

The new character setup workflow looks as if it will beat other competitor packages inc your fav one

That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. :D

Castius

12-10-2003, 10:31 PM

takkun
That was beautiful.
8)

paul k.

12-10-2003, 10:32 PM

In my opinion functionality in Modeler is there. That is not the case as far as the interface in layout is concerned. Also the idea that the interface does not need to look good is purely contradictory to not only the rest of the industry but the idea of the industry. We are paid (Some of us) to have good design sense. To find new visual ways to communicate with people. Now explain to me how New Tek can sell me or anyone else on the fact that they understand this, and develop tools for this, when they can not design an interface that I can stad to look at for five minutes much less all day all the time??????????

For instance when this conversation first came up and Deuce asked us for feedback I pleaded with NT to look at XSI. In all ways not just functionality, and not just style but the marriage of the two. Fast forward a few months and last night I opened up XSI EXP for my boss and fellow animator and he was floored immediately. He saw the functionality but not all of it by any means. What he saw was a company that has a vision and does not neglect part of the program when they upgrade, and understands that the look and feel of an app. is part of their competitive advantage! When you open it up you want to use it because it feels right. You will open up 8 and if things stay the same you will feel like you are watching battlestar gallactica. (THE OLD VERSION.!) THIS IS ANOTHER PLEA TO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ALLOW US TO ENJOY USING THIS PRODUCT, WE ARE VISUAL PEOPLE!!!!

archiea

12-10-2003, 10:43 PM

MorBioS had the right comment....

I haven't seen anything from NT that would indicate that they are on the right track regarding the interface. Funny because otherwise 8 (featurewise) looks pretty good.

UI-wise, though, NT is convinced that it has to change because it is a new version of LW. Right there is your first problem, where they are changing it for the sake of just changing it to indicate a new version of the software. Not because there has been a formal stragedy, or a radical GUI change, like floating tabs ala Photoshop or a redesigned viper/workflow.

Infact, the LW screen for the past few months has been made to look like 5.6 (which had way less buttons so the bevels and outlines weren't as cluttered as in 8), or like DF (as a knee jerk reaction) or as Shake (an attempt to make it look like $5000 software). BTW, I never really liked the interface for shake... the font is too small, the rounded buttons clutter the node to the point where its unreadable, etc.

So even from that you can see that even NT's inspiration is flawed. Whereas Matt's designs, as well as other posters, while more radical, came from an inspired source, Whether it was from their design background or because of some workflow issues, or even as a deliberate attempt to declutter the interface. Meanwhile NT has just rehashed old interface looks or has lifted sytles from 2D software, not even 3D. Making it a bit inbred, and not fresh.

I hipe that NT will look at how Quantel designed their screens. I can look at that for hours. they had just flat colors separating the buttons, no outlines, highlights, bevels or grads. Heck just look at the simple color scheme of the CGtalk screen. Look at how just diferentiating colors help give contrast without becvels and grads to clutter it up.

While NT has been receptive, I haven't seen a new approach from them in the recent postings. Just a slightly more subdued 5.6 rework.

telamon

12-10-2003, 10:50 PM

I suggest LW 8a or 8b comes with two interfaces. One plain, minimalistic and one flashy with icons and popping buttons...

Afterwards, the users will select the one they like.

Then noone should complain but a couple of forever grim people :rolleyes:

Freak

12-10-2003, 11:17 PM

archiea wrote:
Meanwhile NT has just rehashed old interface looks or has lifted sytles from 2D software, not even 3D. Making it a bit inbred, and not fresh.

A) I don't think a complete rewrite was ever on the cards for V8..

B) Matts styles may look great, but do they keep compatibility with older plugins? and Lscripts? Well No, No they couldn't...
Do they take into account the Xpanels services and underlying technology.... No...

So yes lets radically change the interface so that it does not resemble LW anymore, make it foreign to all the people who know it backwards and then break all the old plugins too....
(a sterling idea)

And who cares about the colours? They can be changed!!!!!
I have not used the standard LW colours since day one..

Todays lucky mood colours are:
BackgroundColor 140 140 140
StateButtonColor 140 130 155
ToolButtonColor 125 125 160
ActionButtonColor 143 143 143
DialogButtonColor 175 115 125
DragButtonColor 185 215 215
InfoAreaTextColor 255 255 255
I also use Digital Vibrance on Low....

Now out of 500 people 20 will like that and 480 won't!
So you can't please everyone, anytime..

So why are people complaining about NT's dark grey, and blue.
Sheesh!!

I agree with Howard about multi open windows and dockable windows, maybe some context sensitive menu's and shortcuts..

Darker colours with contrast are proven to be better for working
hence the reason for Shake, Combustion and DF. (All of which the UI's i love)

What is needed, it to be able to customize more of the UI options ourselves..... Preset Interfaces and i'd be happy.......
Actually i'll never be happy, but for totally different reasons... :)

My point being, you're going to please some and not please others....... It's called life! (get used to it)

Rant Mode: Paused

wgreenlee1

12-10-2003, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by takkun
You guys are right. And since it's too late for them to make a mind blowing, professional super crazy OSX-with-a-bit-of-XP-and-trendwhore ultimate UI (just imagine, I couldn't be seen in public using the LW8 UI, I'd be ridiculed by the cool kids!), I've decided that all is doomed so I'm ditching Lightwave right now, this very minute, for Maya.... ohh, wait.... that has an even worse UI.... umm okay, I'll buy 3DSMAX.... ohh, hmmm, that UI is just plain bad and wrong (badong).... well C4D has a nice interface I've heard..... ohh, they don't have ngons at all, ouch.... hmmmm.....well, I guess I'll have to get XSI... but first I'll have to sell my car.... and my computer.... and some blood.... maybe a kidney... I'll keep you updated. :hmm:

*this post was affected by lack of sleep, psychedelic music, and most of all, boredom. If something doesn't make sense... it's okay, you are not alone...

do i smell pepsi on ur breath?........lol