PDA

View Full Version : Apple eying Discreet Desktop Video division?


betelgeuse
12-09-2003, 07:48 PM
From this link (http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=264) :

Specifically, rumors entail a potential Apple purchase of all intellectual property assets and development teams associated with Discreet's Combustion, Cleaner, 3dsmax, and other desktop video products. Simultaneously, sources say Autodesk may decide to 'spin-off' the remainder of its Discreet division rather than mothball development on many of its products.

No official confirmation, of course, but still ..... interesting......

Chris
12-09-2003, 08:05 PM
sounds a bit odd to me, what interest would Apple have in 3Ds Max? Surely it would be a mission to port over to OSX, & with no existing userbase would it be worth it? I certainly hope they dont get a hold of Combustion & Cleaner at any rate... :hmm:

onlooker
12-09-2003, 08:06 PM
Appleinsider rumor. If you have the sense of a dog pay it no mind.

That place never got a rumor correct unless everyone else had it first. Other than worker-bee who used to post in there before Apple filed charges on him, and dismissed him from employment.

I really don't think Apple is at all interested in discreet anyway. They have other fish to fry.

I think they would go for something more along the lines of Macromedia before Discreet. That's just my opinion of course.

betelgeuse
12-09-2003, 08:15 PM
I'm extremely skeptical as well, however, there were/are a ton of Cleaner users on the Mac so I could see Apple wanting to get it's hands on it.

onlooker
12-09-2003, 08:20 PM
And they have Shake they don't need combustion, or cleaner.

Quicktime with Pixlet, and compressor (from DVD SP2) is far better, and faster than cleaner for MPEG2 conversion anyway. They just don't have much use for anything at discreet.

You are right. That there is virtually no Mac user base using Max anyway. Mac users use Lightwave, Maya, Cinema 4D, and so on. Max would probably hurt Apple's rep in a way, and I'm sure they are aware of it.

If anything they may be talking with discreet to see what be involved to get it ported so it is an option for large studios when Apple has more capable 3D machines in the future. Who knows what the future will bring in terms of speed in the next couple years with processors from IBM, and Intel. PPC, and OS X could be a good safe place to have port of your app ready in the coming years.

betelgeuse
12-09-2003, 08:30 PM
I know they have Shake, but I don't think the markets for Shake and Cleaner are the same necessarily.
I do agree that, though, that it seems an unlikely move for Apple. We'll see.

RobertoOrtiz
12-09-2003, 08:49 PM
Sounds fishy.
Apple would be better served to go after a wounded company like Alias.

-R

onlooker
12-09-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by betelgeuse
I know they have Shake, but I don't think the markets for Shake and Cleaner are the same necessarily.
I do agree that, though, that it seems an unlikely move for Apple. We'll see.

My Bad. I didn't mean to group Cleaner in the same category with Shake. Only Combustion. I was referring to Cleaner for it's mpeg conversion/compression capabilities. Apple has applications with those capabilities now that produce higher quality results IMO.

jwmoebius
12-10-2003, 09:43 AM
maybe they want to turn combustion into a consumer type compositing tool to compete against after effects. i don't know if that's a smart move but they seem to have some trouble with adobe so an apple comp app sounds like the next tactical move.

ant-
12-10-2003, 10:00 AM
but there has been the rummor of cleanebeing dropped for mac. this would be a blow as it has a large installed base on the mac. I would be very surpised to see apple actually buy ALL of discreet, but dont see it as far fetched for them to purchase some products, or even just convince them to port 3ds to the mac. (apple based inferno machine anyone? :bounce: :applause: )

fxgogo
12-10-2003, 12:16 PM
I would doubt it just based on the fact that 3DS Max has not been ported to the Mac, mainly because it is so tied into the Intel architecture.

ages
12-10-2003, 02:07 PM
I think getting autocad and its dwg format would be win win..

Autodesk did ask architosh.com if mac ppl wanted autocad this year.

Incidently appe sposors The Digital Architect Tour

dmeyer
12-10-2003, 02:19 PM
I could see Apple being very interested in Cleaner, going after the intellectual property to integrate into Compressor. Compressor is great at what it does, but its a 1 trick pony. Adding Cleaner functionality would be fantastic....especially if it's on the chopping block at Discreet.

Don't see Apple going after 3DS Max. If they really wanted a 3D app in their portfolio, there would be better choices that are either already ported or would be much easier to port.

onlooker
12-10-2003, 02:21 PM
I have to admit some of the reasoning in here is of sound thought, but nothing has me convinced it is enough for Apple to go after any products from discreet.
I think it's possible they are talking about compatibility in future products, but beyond that; weather they drop Mac support or not. I just don't see Apple going after anything there. Unless discreet is trying to dump a few of it's development teams so they can concentrate their efforts, and hire new Dev's for their strongest apps such as Max, and what not.
Apple loves experienced developers. Something like that may actually be attractive to Apple at the moment. Depending on where they believe they may need more programmers. I better stop there, because there is a chance my next speculation will become headlines news on Appleinsiders front page. :)

ages
12-10-2003, 02:29 PM
This happened to macromedia some uhh i think it was 6 years ago, same deal they said they were restructuring and dropping mac support and a few apps, in the end it was like this-

They went pure web

Apple bought off them FCP and their team


Macromedia dropped their 3d app forgot what it was called somthing starting with "R"...


What i see happening with discreet is -

They restructure and sell off stuff apple wants and they cant support anymore like Cleaner and combustion


OR


In talks with Apple to get Autocad over to X... (this i strongly believe so)

Gein
12-10-2003, 06:34 PM
Maybe this doesn't make any sense, maybe it does, you tell me.

When I read the news, I didn't even think about max or combustion at first.
They have a lot of high end software that only runs on Irix and SGI, right? Stuff like inferno, flame, flint, whatever :)

This stuff is probably easier to get on the Mac (due to the Unix background) and run great on new G5's!

Is it so far fetched that Apple may want SGIs place on the high end creative market?

Gein

fr3drik
12-10-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by onlooker
And they have Shake they don't need combustion, or cleaner.
Maybe Apple just want to get rid of Combustion.. forcing one userbase to join another (Shake)... Just a guess from my part. Sounds VERY costly though. And the whole thing seems risky especially with Nuke around the corner...

Oh I don't know really. Combustion isn't really high-end ... so ... speculations, speculations... But clearly, Apple want it's computer base to be computer artists and designers... and at least home-video makers. Of course they need attractive software for these kind of users.

onlooker
12-10-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by fr3drik
Maybe Apple just want to get rid of Combustion.. forcing one userbase to join another (Shake)...

I highly doubt Apple is approaching discreet trying to purchase Combustion just to discontinue it.

This is Apple not Microsoft.

I just don't see that happening for something that is hardy a lucrative venture for them. Unless Discreet is dropping the package from their lineup no matter what, and bargaining with Apple trying to place developers in new jobs. As I said before. Apple likes experienced developers. They would probably take some of the developers, but not keep the App. They don't need to compete with themselves in digital compositing.


Originally posted by Gein
Maybe this doesn't make any sense, maybe it does, you tell me.

When I read the news, I didn't even think about max or combustion at first.
They have a lot of high end software that only runs on Irix and SGI, right? Stuff like inferno, flame, flint, whatever :)

This stuff is probably easier to get on the Mac (due to the Unix background) and run great on new G5's!

Is it so far fetched that Apple may want SGIs place on the high end creative market?

Gein

That I did not think of, and is a good dream, but with the size of the existing consumer Mac user base I cant imagine discreet just up and deciding to hire a Macintosh development team. The Pro Studio base is not that large either. After Renderman for OS X is released there may be more highend Macs in some key positions in the pro field that may help Apple grow but that calls for serious speculation.

As for the IRIX crossover/port theory.

All I can use as reference on that is Maya which has been on my Mac for few years now, but to this day Maya unlimited is still unavailable on the Mac.

It's a hard sell.

RobertoOrtiz
12-10-2003, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by onlooker
I highly doubt Apple is approaching discreet trying to purchase Combustion just to discontinue it.

This is Apple not Microsoft.

I just don't see that happening for something that is hardy a lucrative venture for them. Unless Discreet is dropping the package from their lineup no matter what, and bargaining with Apple trying to place developers in new jobs. As I said before. Apple likes experienced developers. They would probably take some of the developers, but not keep the App. They don't need to compete with themselves in digital compositing.

..just ask the Windows users of Shake if they agree with that.

-R

dmeyer
12-10-2003, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by RobertoOrtiz
..just ask the Windows users of Shake if they agree with that.

-R

Well I'd say this is perhaps a bit different, the installed base of wintel seats was a relatively small portion of Shake's userbase when the Nothing Real acquisition took place (mostly Linux)...while i would venture to guess that Combustion's userbase is overwhelmingly Windows. The Mac version of Combustion has always been treated like a redheaded stepchild by discreet, seeing how their big selling point is integration with Max, which obviously isn't going to mean squat to a Mac user.

But still, the point is valid. I wouldn't paint any of the companies as evil overlords of the CG industry with some sort of vendetta...it's all about whether the numbers make sense.

onlooker
12-10-2003, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by RobertoOrtiz
..just ask the Windows users of Shake if they agree with that.

-R
Apple offered windows users of Shake the equivalent of a free Macintosh to upgrade to latest version of Shake when it was available.

And I don't see this as the same situation at all anyways.

Apple believed they needed a compositing Application. They don't need another one now.

I think your point is dull. Sharpen it.

Gein
12-10-2003, 09:14 PM
That I did not think of, and is a good dream, but with the size of the existing consumer Mac user base I cant imagine discreet just up and deciding to hire a Macintosh development team.

I wasn't thinking that either. It was more like Apple buying Discreets IP and taskforce, and develop those applications under the Apple brand.


Gein

luceric
12-10-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by onlooker
I highly doubt Apple is approaching discreet trying to purchase Combustion just to discontinue it.

This is Apple not Microsoft.




What? Weeks after Apple bought Shake, they bought the RAYZ and Chalice compositors from Silicon Grail precisly only for the purpose of killing it!!
They already discontinued a competitor's compositor, just a year ago.

Tell me the last time microsoft did this.

Also Apple bought EMAGICS the Logic MIDI sequence and annouced immediately that they dropped the Windows version, which was close to 45% of the user base (although apple says 35%) http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2002/07/01/emagic/

Pixelmaestro
12-10-2003, 10:35 PM
For 16 million in cash. Ouch, and now they want to kill the product line. Maybe they can spend more time working on Plasma. (Insert Brainfart sound here).

Media 100 must of burned through the cash as there stock continues to plummet. They just cut the prices of the prices of the Media 100 machines dramatically.

http://www1.discreet.com/site/pressn.nsf/a471aa996206a4e58525654500640891/de23240d7679e51085256ab80046668b?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,Cleaner

I don't think this rumour has anything to do with Max. It has everything to do with the purchase of software for streaming media. Apple has a vested interest in Quicktime.

Discreet is probably trying to unload more than Apple needs. My guess is that the deal would die from dealing with Discreets | ADSK inept management.

onlooker
12-10-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by luceric


Tell me the last time microsoft did this.

Also Apple bought EMAGICS the Logic MIDI sequence and annouced immediately that they dropped the Windows version, which was close to 45% of the user base (although apple says 35%) http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2002/07/01/emagic/

Apple/EMAGIC logic audio still exists for Macintosh, and Music is obviously an area that Apple was interested in. Cutting windows development isn't destroying Music on the windows platform either. You can still use Pro Tools. Logic development for windows would have been a huge loss for apple at the time, and they could not afford to hire a windows development team just to keep up support for it. As I said. They are not Microsoft. They just don't have all the money on earth to blow on a whim.

Originally posted by luceric


Tell me the last time microsoft did this.

When they bought Bungie who was developing game's called Halo, and Oni that were originally intended to be Mac games.

n February 2002, Apple acquired Nothing Real and its flagship product Shake -- a high-speed compositing software optimized for high resolution visual effects.


Last month Apple purchased Silicon Grail and the RAYZ and Chalice product lines. Developed to run on Irix, Linux, Windows and OS X, RAYZ is a compositor based on Chalice, which provides effects and color correction tools for cinema. The software has been used in feature films including Deep Blue Sea, Titanic, Star Trek: Insurrection, Men In Black and others.


Apple also acquired Prismo Graphics last month and its products including India Titler Pro, a video-effects program for creating animated titles and Motion Graphics.

With all the products Apple makes for video, and film editing you truly think Apple purchased these teams just for the sole purpose of EOL-ing them? I Have some serious doubts about your theory.

luceric
12-10-2003, 11:32 PM
When they bought Bungie who was developing game's called Halo, and Oni that were originally intended to be Mac games.

With all the products Apple makes for video, and film editing you truly think Apple purchased these teams just for the sole purpose of EOL-ing them? I Have some serious doubts about your theory. [/B]

Yes microsoft bough Halo and focused them on the XBox console market, the whole point of the aquisision. And Apple killed the windows market for Emagics's current products to remove customer's options to use Windows for MIDI sequencing. Pinnacle snatched Steignberg Cubase from the jaws of apple before it bought it as well. Apple also killed the Windows version of Shake. What you're point again about Halo? Ho yeah, they are now targetting a large client base than before, instead of a smaller one, I get it.

RayZ is definitely dead and not comming back, it's completely redundant with Shake. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that this was an aquisition to kill the competition and buy the development team, there is no technology in Rayz that Shake doesn't have. (morphing was not owned by the company, film tools were owned by Kodak) BTW, this was nearly 2 years ago. (Note that no companies are ever 'stolen' by anyone, they were always looking to be bought)

Killing Halo does not have the effect on the non-existant Mac game market as killing one of the few film compositor (RayZ) has on the small film compositing market.

ages
12-11-2003, 12:33 AM
Apple competes with their packages fairly..
They dont kill off competition cause they cant compete.
i.e ADOBE + Premiere, MS office.

The apple shake thing was a lil niche' i never heard of shake before this happened, now I am getting into it, thus made the community grow by one hehe, it was good for the shake world, not good for the peecee'ers... Ohh well now u know how we feel with the gaming scene "bungie", counterstrike etc and microsoft products like office.

I could understand ones anger but say to yourself Apple is one of the better companies to buy something out, they have a great track record..so far.. It wont be another ms softimage job, but a macromedia to apple FCP job.
Atleast u know Apple will spend heaps to promote shake and make it number one, ask yourself are u a shake guy or a pc shake guy?

Chris
12-11-2003, 01:05 AM
Bob Stockwell just posted this over at the Cow:

"We've been doing some reorganization stuff over here at Discreet as a part of the restructuring plan announced by Autodesk during its Q3 earnings call, so of course there are rumours flying around about the future of everything. But I can tell you flat out that this is NOT the end of combustion.

We continue our work on the Macintosh version of combustion 3 and are still on track to deliver that product in early 2004 as we have stated previously. It looks very good, and we are excited about the product. "

Thank goodness for that! :)

onlooker
12-11-2003, 04:00 AM
Luceric, I don't understand your gripe?
You make it sound like the sole purpose of the purchase was to discontinue windows products.
Apple decided to go full fledged into the video field. There were 2 compositing products with small development teams. Now there is 1 with a full team. Apple new they needed both sets of developers.
A product got discontinued - yes - , but I hardy doubt it was the sole purpose of Apple to destroy competition. It was so they have a new application and development team that had it's feet under it from the get go.

And Logic is still here. The majority of the user base was Mac. I was using it. I didn't even know anyone that had windows that would use it because it performed like crap on windows anyway.

onlooker
12-11-2003, 04:07 AM
All right everybody put your pants back on, and put the rulers away.

Beaker just put an end to this in another thread.

Read:
Originally posted by beaker
Thats a really old rumor that came about because the Combustion and Shake development teams were in the same building in Venice, CA. Discreet closed their LA office, canned *Edit and put combustion in a holding pattern. The shake team swallowed many of the combustion developers since they were just downstairs(most of them didnt want to move to Montreal). They also took over all the old combustion space in the building.

So the rumors spawned from those turn of events 2 years ago.

netviper
12-11-2003, 04:43 PM
i heard discreet was breaking connections with the cleaner mac line.

no need with quicktime pro anyway.

as for combustion, the 3d assets need to be inserted into shake. so apple could benefit there... not to mention particles from illusion.

smoke wsa ported to linux, but a macOSX port would be better.

cheap HD, better OS.

i dont think apple would want max. its a convoluted piece of crap. apple likes intelligent interfaces.

so get max out of your heads right now. it wil NEVER happen. apple doesnt need cleaner either. only flint flame inferno combustion stone and wire + backdraft might be worth looking at.

dmeyer
12-11-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by netviper
i heard discreet was breaking connections with the cleaner mac line.

no need with quicktime pro anyway.
.

Um, while i love quicktime pro, probably the best $30 app out there, it does not even come remotely close to Cleaner.

Yes, there is a need.

3DDave
12-11-2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Gein
Maybe this doesn't make any sense, maybe it does, you tell me.

When I read the news, I didn't even think about max or combustion at first.
They have a lot of high end software that only runs on Irix and SGI, right? Stuff like inferno, flame, flint, whatever :)

This stuff is probably easier to get on the Mac (due to the Unix background) and run great on new G5's!

Is it so far fetched that Apple may want SGIs place on the high end creative market?

Gein

A G5 doesn't have nearly enough bandwidth in it's I/O pipeline to make that a reality. Apple would need to make some series changes to the Mac for that reality.

onlooker
12-11-2003, 10:26 PM
my bad no post

Blur1
12-11-2003, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by 3DDave
A G5 doesn't have nearly enough bandwidth in it's I/O pipeline to make that a reality. Apple would need to make some series changes to the Mac for that reality.

Obviously it doesn't have the same bandwidth as a Tezro but a 2 Ghz G5 with a system bus that runs at 2 GB/sec is definately able to compete with what flames were doing on a fast Octane 2. On the G5 you can do seven streams of uncompressed SD video in real time in Final Cut Pro, which translates to more than enough bandwidth for one stream of 1920 uncompressed Hi Def. Does this have any bearing on the current discussion? Well if Apple were to try and make a "flame killer", or buy discreet and port flame, then the G5 is well on target to being able to have the bandwidth to compete in this maket place.

Chris
12-11-2003, 11:42 PM
Thats wierd, I can only ever get 2 streams of 10 bit SD going in realtime on our G5 in FCP4, it does 9 streams of DV in realtime however (mind you thats only about 36MBs) - 7 streams of SD is probably 7 marketing streams, thats different from real streams... :D

Blur1
12-11-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Thats wierd, I can only ever get 2 streams of 10 bit SD going in realtime on our G5 in FCP4, it does 9 streams of DV in realtime however (mind you thats only about 36MBs) - 7 streams of SD is probably 7 marketing streams, thats different from real streams... :D


Guffaw!!! that was a good call. Obviously you would need a raid capable of sustaining that throughput - which you may already have.
Thanks for the heads up though.

Chris
12-12-2003, 12:17 AM
Ulp, my bad, your right there, I forgot the raid array hasn't arrived yet (we're getting a terrabyte, wahoo, its my first terrabyte, I'm a terrabyte virgin - is that a terragin?) so anyway thats actually pretty good then 2 streams of 10 bit SD on the internal drive(s)! mind you, I dont know how much the blackmagic codec compresses that, so I'm not sure what the actual drive data rate is. Still, as Darth Vader said "Impressive."

CGTalk Moderation
01-16-2006, 08:00 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.