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CgFX
12-09-2003, 02:54 AM
With a recent thread getting slamned closed due to a question about piracy coming up on a message board that strickly forbids such discussion (rightly so)...

Shouldn't every thread and every member that suggests using SoftQuadro be treated in the same manner?

You didn't pay for the driver work, you didn't pay for the on-chip work, and you are using a tool (which probably violates the DMCA) to enable things you haven't paid for.

...just a thought.

dmeyer
12-09-2003, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by CgFX
With a recent thread getting slamned closed due to a question about piracy coming up on a message board that strickly forbids such discussion (rightly so)...

Shouldn't every thread and every member that suggests using SoftQuadro be treated in the same manner?

You didn't pay for the driver work, you didn't pay for the on-chip work, and you are using a tool (which probably violates the DMCA) to enable things you haven't paid for.

...just a thought.

Interesting...I've had that thought myself. It does seem to be a sort of hardware piracy...

dvornik
12-09-2003, 03:53 AM
Softquadro programmer's name and nickname are well known. His residence is no secret either. He and his associates maintain several well-respected 3D graphics-related websites in English and other languages (guru3d.com, nvworld.ru etc). If their actions are illegal let the giant multinational companies protect their own interests using established legal channels.

Softquadro is just a small part of another tweaking tool - Rivatuner. It does not achieve full Quadro functionality. It does not reliably work with newer cards.

Artists who are on a tight budget (students and residents of poor countries) must know of tools that could increase their performance without breaking their budget.


I believe that the group of people associated with Softquadro has greatly contributed to the mass interest in 3d graphics in general and to popularity of certain vendors in particular.

So, as you may have guessed, I disagree with your idea.

MCronin
12-09-2003, 05:34 AM
I'm almost certain Nvidia took Guru 3D and Unwinder to task on this a long time ago. They came to an agreement and the drivers and tweaking tools are now being provided legally, so long as the people using them read and agree to the license agreement/disclaimer.

So, no, I don't agree with you either.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by dmeyer
Interesting...I've had that thought myself. It does seem to be a sort of hardware piracy...

With Quadro4 and beyond it is really software piracy. You can no longer enable hardware but you are enabling a ton of software work that cost millions of dollars.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by dvornik
Softquadro programmer's name and nickname are well known. His
Softquadro is just a small part of another tweaking tool - Rivatuner. It does not achieve full Quadro functionality. It does not reliably work with newer cards.

Artists who are on a tight budget (students and residents of poor countries) must know of tools that could increase their performance without breaking their budget.


I believe that the group of people associated with Softquadro has greatly contributed to the mass interest in 3d graphics in general and to popularity of certain vendors in particular.

So, as you may have guessed, I disagree with your idea.

How does any of what you said not apply to Microsoft? How does any of what you said not apply to Alias, Discreet, Avid, etc.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by MCronin
I'm almost certain Nvidia took Guru 3D and Unwinder to task on this a long time ago. They came to an agreement and the drivers and tweaking tools are now being provided legally, so long as the people using them read and agree to the license agreement/disclaimer.

I doubt that very strongly. Do have any information or pointers?

dvornik
12-09-2003, 06:22 AM
Dude, there's no mainstream "Get-Windows-For-Free.com" or "Soft-3ds-max6.org" websites.

I assure you if Softquadro would cause ANY REAL financial damage then several thousand dollars paid to the Ukranian police would shut down those websites forever. It's just not such a major issue and it actually helps selling tons of lowend cards. I don't understand why you are so up in arms against it. Yes, it may be considered illegal in some municipalities if challanged in court. Could be legal in some others. And it's kind of getting obsolete cause the manufacturers have learned their lessons and are making their highend cards actually worth the money... (BTW... where's Maxtreme for max6?)...

MCronin
12-09-2003, 06:33 AM
Is the fact that ATI, Nvidia and various IHVs are actually sponsoring sites that offer these tools and drivers for download not enough proof for you? Sparkle Technology actually includes Riva Tuner with all it's Nvidia based cards on utility CDs. Is that proof enough? If not I'll email Alexey and ask him directly.

Sieb
12-09-2003, 06:36 AM
I figured DMCA only covered the creation of programs and such that violated or reverse-engineered copy protection or in some way violated copyrighted digital works. No wrongdoing is being done or else Nvidia would have put the smack down. All it does is change some registry settings to recoggnize the card for what it is (or can be). I dont know of it actually changing the driver itself.

Now, Nvidia did crack down on the Omega driver project due to its implications and reverse-engineered like drivers which would fall under your argument.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by dvornik
Yes, it may be considered illegal in some municipalities if challanged in court.
So that goes back to the point of this thread, shouldn't it therefore be considered a way to pirate ATI and nVidia's work and product and therefore should not be allowed on CG Talk?

And all the arguments about the lack of legal recourse by ATI or nVidia has nothing to do with if it is piracy and if they approve of its creation or use. It simply speaks to the costs and difficulty in its pursuit. Especially with someone based in Russia. By those arguements all software, movies, and music should be free since it is or nearly is in major AsiaPac cities.

froggyplat
12-09-2003, 06:45 AM
well, i dont need lawyers or corporations to tell me whether or not i can modify my toaster...same with the hardware i buy for my computer with my money!:hmm:

unless you can convince me that i don't own the things i buy...which is probably where all this is heading.

ggg
12-09-2003, 06:51 AM
lots of admins have been recommened by companies to use the cr@ck of their 3d sw for stabilty eg. for network rendering issues, and although most NV reps I've spoken with say its a bad idea to use the softquadro others have recommended it eg as a solution when switching out test cards was a pita, and its also well known that piracy can help establish market share, BUT our industry has been dumbed down enough by lowered prices, by less featured new releases, and by piracy. I agree lock the softquadro threads, they can turn into juvenille card wars and other sites provide full info about about them anyway.

dvornik
12-09-2003, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by CgFX
Especially with someone based in Russia.
It's not "someone". It's someone who has a name and is well-known in the 3D community.

ATI and Nvidia have much more legal recourse than you and I and most other CG-Talk members combined. I wouln't worry about them.

Novakog
12-09-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by froggyplat
well, i dont need lawyers or corporations to tell me whether or not i can modify my toaster...same with the hardware i buy for my computer with my money!:hmm:

unless you can convince me that i don't own the things i buy...which is probably where all this is heading.

Exactly my thoughts. If you own the card, you can do whatever you please with it. It's not like "By those arguements all software, movies, and music should be free" but more like "If I buy a movie, I should be able to rip it and edit it and reburn it FOR MYSELF" which is absolutely true. If I want to mod up my graphics card, ATI or NV can't stop me because it's MY graphics card. And it's not like they're illegally pirating the drivers for a Quadro card, they're available on the Nvidia site.

Dvornik - He didn't mean "someone" as to remain unnamed, he just meant "a person", as in, it's harder to argue with someone in Russia than in the same country, of which I agree with.

dvornik
12-09-2003, 08:42 AM
It's not like I care about "Aleksey Nikolaychuk aka Unwinder". That wasn't the point. The point was that the guy is well-known and if he's breaking the law he would be targeted by nvidia and ati lawyers long time ago. Yet you don't exactly read about it on TheInquirer.org.

I totally agree with your "fair use" argument though... Unfortunately it may be far less legal than a Softquadro these days.

froggyplat
12-09-2003, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Novakog
Exactly my thoughts. If you own the card, you can do whatever you please with it.

right...nvidia and ati aren't exactly struggling to make a name for themselves. if they choose to forego a couple extra million dollars in research and development and simply "flip off the secret switch" on their lower-end cards how can you possibly lay the blame on the consumer for taking advantage of that? by punishing them for your laziness and desire to maximize profits?

i support nvidia because they developed a great product and i wil continue to do so. but i think anyone who argues that companies should have the right (of law) to tell you (as a consumer, not a competitor) "you can only use this product in this way and if you don't we will punish you" is just being a tool.

on the topic of the thread, i don't see the need to make even more work for the mods over this.

loop29
12-09-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by CgFX
With a recent thread getting slamned closed due to a question about piracy coming up on a message board that strickly forbids such discussion (rightly so)...

Shouldn't every thread and every member that suggests using SoftQuadro be treated in the same manner?

You didn't pay for the driver work, you didn't pay for the on-chip work, and you are using a tool (which probably violates the DMCA) to enable things you haven't paid for.

...just a thought.

My thought is censorship in the first !! If nvidia thinks we have to pay for the driver work, so then let it happen.
Rivatuner is a free tool you can use for your private PC and up to this point in time no court has judged developers of softquadro or Rivatuner being illegal and I would leave this board in no time if someone would forbid me to speak about something that is in no case to be treated as illegal. Just my thoughts...

Joel Hooks
12-09-2003, 03:42 PM
This is an old troll by Mr. FX...

He hates the SoftQuadro.

Is it even usable with the new cards? It's certainly no replacement for a real Quadro.

Sieb
12-09-2003, 06:08 PM
Nvidas fallback is that they don't support it, so if you hose your card, your SOL. As I stated before, its not circumventing any sort of protection, just unlocking a feature that's already there but disabled as part of the fab of the board. This being hardware based thoguh where as software falls directly under the DMCA (AFAIK). And Rivatuner from what I remember doesn't change driver files, just makes it so the computer will recognize the card as something else and accept the drivers. I could be wrong though, its been a while and Ive since moved to ATI.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by froggyplat
well, i dont need lawyers or corporations to tell me whether or not i can modify my toaster...same with the hardware i buy for my computer with my money!:hmm:

This isn't about hardware. People are using Softquadro to unlock software that is intentionally locked unless you buy a Quadro board.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by ggg
although most NV reps I've spoken with say its a bad idea to use the softquadro others have recommended it eg as a solution when switching out test cards was a pita

Horsepuckie. Who?
and its also well known that piracy can help establish market share
So, just to be clear this isn't about if piracy is good or not. This is about the fact that Softquadro is piracy and should be subject to the same harsh "no piracy" rule for this discussion forum.

kex
12-09-2003, 07:55 PM
its a tool

if i buy a brush with a tipped end and i use the back of the brush to paint i dont need the company who made the brush trying to sue me and buy a longer tipped stick.

froggyplat
12-09-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by CgFX
This isn't about hardware. People are using Softquadro to unlock software that is intentionally locked unless you buy a Quadro board.

i understand that. but i don't see that as fundamentally different, which is where we disagree.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 09:35 PM
If you have possesion of an Alias CD that has all levels of Maya stored on it, do you have the right to use a 3rd party tool to unlock the $25,000 version when you only paid for the $4,000 version?

It is the same thing. I am not trolling I just don't understand how you and this forum can respect Microsoft's, Alias', and Discreet's software with respect to piracy but not nVidia's or ATI's.

The reason that nVidia does this is so they don't have to have separate drivers, board designs, and core architectures from the mass produced consumer parts. Otherwise they would be going out of business like 3Dlabs.

This is to all of our benefit as it has us buying $1,500 Quadro FX 3000 boards that are 10x faster than a $500,000 Onyx.

But again, that is not my question. My question is why the forum allows discussion of one cracking piracy tool but not discussions of OS or primary application piracy.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 10:00 PM
I guess the answer is that it is not considered piracy because of nvidia's lack of prosicution to date.

GregHess
12-09-2003, 11:36 PM
Here's an interesting prospect...

What if nvidia created a hardware detection for softquadro? Some sort of internal trigger, that upon detecting quadro drivers on a non quadro card, causes the hardware to shut off the cooling fan?

(Remember alot of the new fans are not only temp/software controlled, but can actually be related to gpu core frequency).

So lets say suddenly the performance drops like a rock...so you uninstall the "patch" and try the original drivers...

Only...the performance is still crap...suddenly your Geforce FX 5950 is running at 5200 speeds.

A kick in the pants by nvidia? Or something that could be just around the corner?

Car manufacturers have started using black boxes and pcm/ecu monitoring systems to deny warranty claims on individuals taking their car to the track.

The computer doesn't lie, it just points out the last thing the user was doing when the failure occured...or in this case, when the card was hacked.


I'm not completely "anti-softquadro" but I'm not exactly for it either.

The biggest reason? Tech support. Its a big pain to help troubleshoot a problem when it turns out to be a back cracked driver, or the wrong rivatuner version.

The second reason? The damage it does to a card manufacturer. Not in sales, not in profits...but in QA.

Imagine your trying to fix a bug...a bug thats been submitted by a few thousand quadro users...only it then turns out your not actually fixing the bug in the nvidia drivers, its a bug sitting with softquadro.

All that time, all that manpower, all that money wasted.

And that my friends results in higher prices, more driver bugs, and loss of performance across the board.

Whose to say a slow quadro driver here, or a bug there, wasn't caused by a bunch of softquadro folks submitting problems?

The final reason? Were cg artists.

Our programs are not cheap. Our systems aren't cheap. A single rig with just a few licenses of cg software can easily scale into the 15,000 USD range...and people moan and complain about 500 USD video cards.

Of course I can definitely see an issue with a smaller studio, running some lighter licenses, or a perhaps a studio...but usually if you don't have the money for something, you probably don't need it either.

Anyway just a blurb. We used to argue about this all the farking time on the 3dsmax webboard. I even got my hand slapped for recommending it back in the Geforce2 days. :)

ggg
12-10-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by CgFX
Horsepuckie. Who?
lots of people have been recommended to use, or specifically told not to use, depending on the rep, the crk of an app to get around rendering issues, its not a dirty little industry secret, and obviously one wouldn't post specifics. that's my point
Originally posted by CgFX
So, just to be clear this isn't about if piracy is good or not. This is about the fact that Softquadro is piracy and should be subject to the same harsh "no piracy" rule for this discussion forum.

Yes.
And although its not about that, but does touch on it, then this thread should be locked too.

matty429
12-10-2003, 12:19 AM
I'm using softQuadro Right now.....

So what.......

I have to buy NVIDIA hardware to run it on...

And I've probably bought 10 cards in the past 2 or so years...How many guys like me do you think there are...ALOT...

Comparing Maya to SoftQuadro makes no sense to me...

Next thinkg you'll say is I can't overclock my hardware.....Whats the difference..It's all software comands to the compatible hardware....

Novakog
12-10-2003, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by CgFX
This isn't about hardware. People are using Softquadro to unlock software that is intentionally locked unless you buy a Quadro board.

Wait, what software is this? If you're referring to the drivers, they're free for download. It doesn't matter that they're locked, nvidia doesn't even say anything about unlocking them, and even if they did you could still do it.

If you have possesion of an Alias CD that has all levels of Maya stored on it, do you have the right to use a 3rd party tool to unlock the $25,000 version when you only paid for the $4,000 version?

Alright, first off, Maya has a $2000 version and a $7000, but that's irrelevant (just a basic mistake). To answer your rhetorical question, absolutely, you have that right. If Alias physically gives the data which contains the $7000 version of Maya (Unlimited), then you own that data and it is yours, you can do whatever you please with it for yourself (so, obviously, you can't distribute it).

It is Alias' fault for including the data, similar to nVidia's fault for allowing the drivers downloadable for anyone. If NV made the drivers downloadable only for real quadro users, than yes, I think softquadroing is wrong, but they're not.

Furthermore, as softquadro is doing, you could tell other users how to unlock Maya Unlimited, because you're only telling them how to modify what they already have, there is nothing illegal in that.

But it's obvious to me that arguing with you, CgFX, will get us nowhere (even if one side wins the argument, which won't happen, because we're all too stubborn to admit when we're wrong sometimes). The only way that CGTalk would ban talking about softquadro is if 1) they believed it was bad AND 2) they polled people about it and found that the majority also believed it bad. Or if nVidia threatened them.

Unlike warez, as far as any of us really knows, softquadroing is legal (if nVidia could make a case against it, they might not directly attack the people who do it, but they would certainly make some sort of press release about it).

dmeyer
12-10-2003, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Novakog

you could tell other users how to unlock Maya Unlimited, because you're only telling them how to modify what they already have, there is nothing illegal in that.


Yeah actually there is. Per the software EULA that you agree to when you purchase and/or install.

"Alias Software License Agreement

Purchasing Alias software is different than most other purchases. An end-user purchases only the right to use the software; an end user does not purchase the software.

Software use is governed by the software license agreement. Transactions to license or transfer the software are restricted to Alias' sales force and our authorized resellers. Licensees (end-users) may not copy, exchange, distribute, sell or transfer the software."

3Dfx_Sage
12-10-2003, 03:31 AM
Originally posted by dmeyer
Yeah actually there is. Per the software EULA that you agree to when you purchase and/or install.

"Alias Software License Agreement

Purchasing Alias software is different than most other purchases. An end-user purchases only the right to use the software; an end user does not purchase the software.

Software use is governed by the software license agreement. Transactions to license or transfer the software are restricted to Alias' sales force and our authorized resellers. Licensees (end-users) may not copy, exchange, distribute, sell or transfer the software."
good point, but can you find something similar to this in the nVidia EULA? Also, SoftQuadro does not modify or reverse engineer the drivers, the drivers still perform as they were designed- they install Quadro drivers when they detect a Quadro.

dmeyer
12-10-2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
good point, but can you find something similar to this in the nVidia EULA? Also, SoftQuadro does not modify or reverse engineer the drivers, the drivers still perform as they were designed- they install Quadro drivers when they detect a Quadro.

Don't know and honestly don't care all that much...the stability of the Quadro more than justifies the price to me. :shrug:

The point of the quoting of the Alias EULA was to shoot down the notion that purchasing Complete and hacking it to Unlimited was legit since you "own the data," which in fact, you do not. Clearly the Softquadro instance is much less cut and dried. I think the issue is that people tend to not think twice about stealing $500 worth of intellectual property versus $500 of physical property.

Jb5k1
12-10-2003, 03:45 AM
On the topic of piracy, I'm not to keen on the specifics, but isn't it considered "ok" if you don't distribute and/or sell it. It's not exactly right, but the whole thing about piracy is to "share". That's what I thought it was all about anyway. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm always getting told off about it. (hahaha Leigh)

I've used RivaTuner, and overclocked my GeForce2, because it has, before being overclocked, slowed down drastically. I'm also purchasing a used card (Quadro 2 pro). I bought the card, I think I have the right to do what I want with it. Not being able to use RivaTuner (which comes from the respected guru3d.com) is like not letting someone update drivers. They're free, and if you can get a card to work like another, higher level card, go for it. I can't do that cause my geforce 2 will die, and I haven't recieved my new card yet.

3Dfx_Sage
12-10-2003, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by dmeyer
Don't know and honestly don't really care...the stability of the Quadro more than justifies the price to me. :shrug:

The point of the quoting of the Alias EULA was to shoot down the notion that purchasing Complete and hacking it to Unlimited was legit since you "own the data," which in fact, you do not. Clearly the Softquadro instance is much less cut and dried.
Again, very good point. I think you're totally correct about the right to crack a Maya CD and use Unlimited when you didn't pay for it. Also, I agree that the stability issues definitely make SoftQuadro only an option for people who simply cannot afford another $800-$1500+ for a real Quadro. I use SoftQuadro, and I hate it, but it's my only option right now.

3Dfx_Sage
12-10-2003, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Jb5k1
On the topic of piracy, I'm not to keen on the specifics, but isn't it considered "ok" if you don't distribute and/or sell it. It's not exactly right, but the whole thing about piracy is to "share". That's what I thought it was all about anyway. Please, correct me if I'm wrong, cause I'm always getting told off about it. (hahaha Leigh)
sorry to bust your bubble, but it is illegal even if you don't distribute it. You might want to take at the Digital Mellinium Copywright Act that the devil...err... Curious George...err...George Bush Jr signed into effect in 2000.

Novakog
12-10-2003, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by dmeyer
Yeah actually there is. Per the software EULA that you agree to when you purchase and/or install.

"Alias Software License Agreement

Purchasing Alias software is different than most other purchases. An end-user purchases only the right to use the software; an end user does not purchase the software.

Software use is governed by the software license agreement. Transactions to license or transfer the software are restricted to Alias' sales force and our authorized resellers. Licensees (end-users) may not copy, exchange, distribute, sell or transfer the software."

Right right, my bad. Still though, you can legally "mod" your version of Maya (not writing a plug-in, more if you were really good and actually changed the program a little), can't you?

Well, anyway, you don't sign anything that says you can't mod an NV GPU, do you (it's been so long since I purchased an nVidia card...)? What about the drivers/software part of it? Anyway, does softquadro actually modify the drivers or say, runs the Quadro drivers on a GF card? If it modifies the drivers and you agree not to do that with nVidia, then ya, ban softquadro. If you're not allowed to mod the GPU, then ya ban "hardquadro" (as in, changing the physical hardware). If softquadro just runs the Quadro drivers on a GF card, is there anything nVidia can do against it? I mean, you're not actually modding anything. Back to the Maya analogy, you're allowed to write a plug-in that exports Maya stuff to say, Max (or XSI or anything). So why not be able to write software that uses Quadro drivers on a GF card?

Anyway, my thought is that we can't really do anything unless the admins create a vote. It's like anti-war protestors, they might be right or wrong, or whatever, but in the end it's all up to Bush and Congress (ok, I'm not into politics, but you get what I mean). The protestors are just there to convince them one way or another. If the admins are as strongly set on the matter as some of us are, then we can't change what this site in particular allows. Would any admins like to chime in, say whether it's possible by our arguing that we might convince them other than what they already believe (which is probably not to ban softquadro, given that they don't already)?

Jb5k1
12-10-2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
sorry to bust your bubble, but it is illegal even if you don't distribute it. You might want to take at the Digital Mellinium Copywright Act that the devil...err... Curious George...err...George Bush Jr signed into effect in 2000.

OOO, ummmm... That doesn't includ music does it!?!? (pulls at colar of shirt because of intensive sweating...)

Jb5k1
12-10-2003, 04:16 AM
whoops, double postage

3Dfx_Sage
12-10-2003, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by Jb5k1
OOO, ummmm... That doesn't includ music does it!?!? (pulls at colar of shirt because of intensive sweating...) technically, yes. but its not really the people who download music that are being targeted- it's the people who are sharing large ammounts of it. also, the methods that the RIAA is using to investigate music downloaders is actually illegal itself and the hammer is about to fall on them.

Jb5k1
12-10-2003, 04:22 AM
wow, I gotta read up on this stuff...

I'm like a music freak with kazaa and whatnot

Novakog
12-10-2003, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
sorry to bust your bubble, but it is illegal even if you don't distribute it. You might want to take at the Digital Mellinium Copywright Act that the devil...err... Curious George...err...George Bush Jr signed into effect in 2000.

Wait, I'm confused. How is it piracy if you don't distribute or sell it? I mean, isn't the definition of piracy illegal distribution or sale of intellectual or physical property of others?

EDIT: Oh wait, did you mean it's not ok to mod software even if you don't distribute or sell it? Damn, that's stupid. I support Bush for the most part, but this makes me so angry. :banghead:

Sieb
12-10-2003, 04:49 AM
Wait, I'm confused. How is it piracy if you don't distribute or sell it? I mean, isn't the definition of piracy illegal distribution or sale of intellectual or physical property of others?

Well how did you get it? Just downloading it is piracy. As stated above, if you read ULAs, you never actually own software, just the right to use it, which can be taken away from you if found to be using it in an illegal way. They own the rights to that software, you dont, thats why its "licensing." Same with music.

MCronin
12-10-2003, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
sorry to bust your bubble, but it is illegal even if you don't distribute it. You might want to take at the Digital Mellinium Copywright Act that the devil...err... Curious George...err...George Bush Jr signed into effect in 2000.

http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Bush is not the root of all evil. We actually have Clinton to thank for this one. If you are going to try to turn this into a political debate you'd do better to at least get the facts straight.

Again, since everyone who is referring to this as piracy seems to have ignored this when I posted it earlier, I'm going to ask..

How can you insist these drivers hacks are piracy, given that Nvidia, ATI and their Vendors are sponsoring websites that make these hacks available, and some vendors actually include the hacks on their driver CDs with their products? Also, www.guru3d.com, which is the biggest source of these hacks, actually uses Nvidia's logo in their disclaimers when you try to download the drivers. The only way they could do this is with Nvidia's expressed permission according to Nvidia's own copyright notice.

This is not a matter of Nvidia not persuing piracy, Nvidia is actually supporting these driver hacks. If you go to nvnews.net, which Nvidia, on their own site, offers as their official support forum, you'll see that the site admins are offering news, tutorials, links and downloads to all sorts of driver hacks including Riva Tuner and Softquadro. If Nvidia had a problem with these driver hacks you'd think at the very least they wouldn't allow it on a site they were offering to their clients as an official support forum.

LordPhobos
12-10-2003, 05:16 AM
How is SoftQuadro any different than overclocking ones cpu? Or overclocking the video card in general? It's not, and there's surely nothing illegal about either of those. In fact, Nvidia has made products before that allow you to overclock the speeds of your video card. How is that any different than what SoftQuadro does?

If I buy a Radeon 9700 and overclock it to a Radeon 9800, that's my choice. Nvidia and ATI are well aware that this goes on, and they've even shown that they endorse it (Coolbits, anyone?). If someone chooses to overclock their video card and ends up frying it, that's their fault. Using SoftQuadro is no different. You're altering your legally-owned video card using legal drivers that are available to anyone. If Nvidia was so anal about their Quadro drivers being ONLY for Quadro owners, then they should set up some sort of login to download them where you have to give your Quadro's serial number or something. The fact is that they don't, and I think it's because they just don't care that much about it.

Look, if I was to download some sort of Windows-based software and get it to somehow run on Linux, is that illegal? The Quadro drivers are legal for anyone to download. There is no reverse engineering or breaking of the Nvidia/ATI code in order to get Softquadro to work. You're basically tricking Windows into thinking that you have a card you don't, so it installs different drivers. If the makers of Softquadro were to reverse engineer the manufacturers drivers, then yes, it would be illegal. But forcing Windows to use Quadro drivers is no different than me overclocking my cpu. I'm taking freely available tools to force my hardware to do something it was not designed to do. If it breaks, I'm on my own. But I am using legal tools to push my hardware into performing above and beyond what it is supposed to do.... from what it was designed to do.

If the Quadro drivers were stolen from the Nvidia website, then yes, illegal. Using Quadro drivers on a non-Quadro card is the same as using Catalyst drivers on an Nvidia card. It wasn't designed for that, but they're freely available, so if you get them working that way, then more power to you.

Novakog
12-10-2003, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Sieb
Well how did you get it? Just downloading it is piracy. As stated above, if you read ULAs, you never actually own software, just the right to use it, which can be taken away from you if found to be using it in an illegal way. They own the rights to that software, you dont, thats why its "licensing." Same with music.

Oh ya, I know downloading is piracy. I meant of course something is piracy if someone is illegally distributing it or selling it. If you download it, someone is, so it's piracy. Downloading it I would think though is more a sort of "aiding and abetting (sp?)" type thing (I don't mean legally, although it might be, I mean in actuality), distributing is really really bad.

Bush is not the root of all evil. We actually have Clinton to thank for this one.

And now I'm back to liking Bush :thumbsup:!

Novakog
12-10-2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by LordPhobos
If Nvidia was so anal about their Quadro drivers being ONLY for Quadro owners, then they should set up some sort of login to download them where you have to give your Quadro's serial number or something. The fact is that they don't, and I think it's because they just don't care that much about it.


That's what I said. Goes along with what MCronin is saying. Why in the world would we ban softquadroing over here at CGTalk if nVidia themself supports it?

CgFX
12-10-2003, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Novakog
If Alias physically gives the data which contains the $7000 version of Maya (Unlimited), then you own that data and it is yours, you can do whatever you please with it for yourself (so, obviously, you can't distribute it).
That is where I and the courts disagree with you.

3Dfx_Sage
12-10-2003, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by LordPhobos
How is SoftQuadro any different than overclocking ones cpu? Or overclocking the video card in general? It's not, and there's surely nothing illegal about either of those. In fact, Nvidia has made products before that allow you to overclock the speeds of your video card. How is that any different than what SoftQuadro does?
what's different is that it causes the drivers to behave in a way other than they were intended. however, because it does not actually modify or reverse engineer the software then it is not illegal. I can see how Cg-FX would like to see it as illegal, but if you break it down and look at the specifics of how it works and what the law says, you'll find that it is perfectly legal.

Jb5k1
12-10-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Novakog
Wait, I'm confused. How is it piracy if you don't distribute or sell it? I mean, isn't the definition of piracy illegal distribution or sale of intellectual or physical property of others?

EDIT: Oh wait, did you mean it's not ok to mod software even if you don't distribute or sell it? Damn, that's stupid. I support Bush for the most part, but this makes me so angry. :banghead:

I'm totally with that:thumbsup:

Jb5k1
12-10-2003, 12:19 PM
What about someone who has just bought the $4000 app. Maybe they can't afford a highend card to suit their needs right away. What are they gonna do, just have this junk card to live with until they can get a Quadro or Firegl. I didn't, but I have the demos...
Same difference

milkyman
12-10-2003, 01:37 PM
congradulations! u win! this most stupid thread the board has had ever. am i right or wrong in saying an agreement has been reached that makes this legal?

:applause:

froggyplat
12-10-2003, 02:26 PM
i've gotten a lot of useful tweaking info from the technical forum. to ban discussions of softquadro would invariably lead to other arguments for banning other kinds of tweaks. and i think that would have a negative impact on the forum's usefulness and keep the mods unecessarily occupied.

3Dfx_Sage
12-10-2003, 02:29 PM
this thread is quite obviously another attempt at Cg-FX to make a general pest of him/her self. The boards I frequent most wouldn't tolerate this type of behavior very long...

Jb5k1
12-10-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by milkyman
congradulations! u win! this most stupid thread the board has had ever. am i right or wrong in saying an agreement has been reached that makes this legal?

:applause:

that is the most sensible thing anyone has said about this:thumbsup: :bounce: :bowdown:

stephen2002
12-10-2003, 03:30 PM
I just read through the arguments and I think that we have shown that SoftQuadro is legal and, of course, modifiying/distributing/cracking licened software such as Maya is not legal.

loop29
12-10-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by lowdown
This is an old troll by Mr. FX...

He hates the SoftQuadro.

Is it even usable with the new cards? It's certainly no replacement for a real Quadro.

As long as he represents its own oppinion I don´t have any problem with it, it doesn´t matter to me if he likes SQ, Rivatuner or not. But if he starts acting as a mental fire starter I do care !!
Because of the reason that using SQ is not comparable with actions to remove software protections from expensive CAD/DCC applications. Since no court in the world has judged any hardware enthusiast by overclocking or tweaking his hardware devices or using Rivatuner beeing an act of piracy I suggest it doesn´t apply to the antipiracy rule of this board. For example Epox and other hardware manufacturers dissabled multiplier locking on nforce 2 mainboards, is this hacking or piracy because they modified BIOS from other software vendors?

It is usable with 44.03 to 44.65 I think because of screwed nvstrap antiprotection. FX 5800 will turn into a full fledged QFX 2000 and FX 5900 behaves like GF 4 Ti, 2 sided lightning and AA lines is ripped from NV35 GPU. In case of FX 5800 it is full replcament, hardware modification is possible too. But as stated many times before, if one is doing serious work and needs support from hardware and software vendors it is not advisable. But if you´re on tight budget as students or other people it is a niche solution.

regards

Sieb
12-10-2003, 06:04 PM
hardware is not covered under the DMCA or any licensing issues other than licensing for chip use and all that such manner not related to the licensing were talking about. You can reverse engineer your video card all you want, you paid for it as a phsyical item that was constructed. But if you do reverse engineer it in the hopes of gaining a profit using what you learned (as in the exact same sample), or distrobution of what you learned without authorization, then you have a problem.

Software falls under the DMCA (including drivers) and is not something you never physically ever own (no, the media its on doesn't count). You paid for the license to be able to use it, which can be taken away from you. Technically reverse engineering a program goes agains the DMCA, you didn't pay for the right to redevelope the program. Thats why there are development channels and builds you can get if you are in such an environment. Now if they gave you the ability to build plugins and the tools to do so, thats different, thats specifically there for that reason, no to reprogram the actual software itself, just add to its functionality.

The Omega drivers for nvidia cards was in direct violation of DMCA because they were built off of reverse engineered Nvida drivers, which, if you download, present you with a big License Agreement that you agree to before downloading... yes, that screen you never read, same when installing Windows..

This really isn't as complicated as you people are making it out to be. Linux is different though, if its covered under GPL, you can edit all you want as long as you share (which, unlike what SCO is saying, is not against the constiutional copyright).


Wait, I'm confused. How is it piracy if you don't distribute or sell it? I mean, isn't the definition of piracy illegal distribution or sale of intellectual or physical property of others? EDIT: Oh wait, did you mean it's not ok to mod software even if you don't distribute or sell it? Damn, that's stupid. I support Bush for the most part, but this makes me so angry.

Read your EULA next time.. Distribution and reproduction is in violation. You downloading is distributing an unauthorized reproduction. You didn't pay for it. The EULA also talks about unauthorized modifications of the software. Read above, you don't own it...

Sieb
12-10-2003, 06:36 PM
The Nvidia EULA:
---------------
Use of NVIDIA's products requires three elements: the SOFTWARE, the hardware on a graphics controller board, and a personal computer. The SOFTWARE is protected by copyright laws and international copyright treaties, as well as other intellectual property laws and treaties. The SOFTWARE is not sold, and instead is only licensed for use, strictly in accordance with this document. The hardware is protected by various patents, and is sold, but this agreement does not cover that sale, since it may not necessarily be sold as a package with the SOFTWARE. This agreement sets forth the terms and conditions of the SOFTWARE LICENSE only.

2.1.1 Rights. Customer may install and use one copy of the SOFTWARE on a single computer, and except for making one back-up copy of the Software, may not otherwise copy the SOFTWARE. This LICENSE of SOFTWARE may not be shared or used concurrently on different computers.

2.1.3 Limitations.

No Reverse Engineering. Customer may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the SOFTWARE, nor attempt in any other manner to obtain the source code.

No Separation of Components. The SOFTWARE is licensed as a single product. Its component parts may not be separated for use on more than one computer, nor otherwise used separately from the other parts.

No Rental. Customer may not rent or lease the SOFTWARE to someone else.

3. TERMINATION

This LICENSE will automatically terminate if Customer fails to comply with any of the terms and conditions hereof. In such event, Customer must destroy all copies of the SOFTWARE and all of its component parts.
--------
The rest is the copyright which I wont include.

Novakog
12-10-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Sieb
Read your EULA next time.. Distribution and reproduction is in violation. You downloading is distributing an unauthorized reproduction. You didn't pay for it. The EULA also talks about unauthorized modifications of the software. Read above, you don't own it...

Before you make a post contradicting me (you too CgFX, with your last post), read my posts following what you're contradicting. Yes, I realize I was wrong about Maya, that was my bad. And one of my posts I said exactly what you said about piracy. I said "I meant of course something is piracy if someone is illegally distributing it or selling it. If you download it, someone is, so it's piracy". Read all the posts before posting something.

leigh
12-10-2003, 11:48 PM
The debate about the softquadro issue is an interesting one, and I'll allow that continue.

But if ANYONE condones warez again (or attempts to debate that it should be legal to download cracked programs), this thread will be CLOSED and those members dealt with.

Why is it that people insist on constantly ignoring the forum rules?

Please guys, just stick to the rules.

Jb5k1
12-11-2003, 01:03 AM
Ok

JA-forreal
12-16-2003, 08:40 PM
Wow, what a thread. It's strange in an "outer limits" kind of way, but interesting to boot. Carry on.

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