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lwwiz
12-07-2003, 12:57 AM
Hi there everyone I am working on a photo realistic head for a male that is around 35 to 45 years old. I am not that good at textureing as was wondering iff there was a way to model wrinkles into a model so I dont have to paint them with bump maps. please any tools, tutorials, or ps brushes that you might have that will allow me to paint wrinkles easily would be a great help. I dont really have the money to buy any thing so Please leave your links here.

telamon
12-07-2003, 01:10 AM
you can use FI-wrinkle have a look at flay.com. It works fine

vingolliang
12-07-2003, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by telamon
you can use FI-wrinkle have a look at flay.com. It works fine
u can no longger find it in faly, coz the link is broken
if u want to get it i can offer one
this is a work link
http://61.187.55.84/ut/attach/2003/12/05/2022326-FIsWrinkle-i-0_1_0.zip

SplineGod
12-07-2003, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by lwwiz
Hi there everyone I am working on a photo realistic head for a male that is around 35 to 45 years old. I am not that good at textureing as was wondering iff there was a way to model wrinkles into a model so I dont have to paint them with bump maps. please any tools, tutorials, or ps brushes that you might have that will allow me to paint wrinkles easily would be a great help. I dont really have the money to buy any thing so Please leave your links here.

As telemon mentioned FI wrinkle is a good tool. Theres a few others around that are useful for splitting not just edges but polys as well. The important thing when creating wrinkles is to make sure the flow on your model is correct. I also like FIs Jigsaw, theres bandsaw, quickcut, edge tools and others. Theres a couple of tools that allow you to pick points in a band for use with something like RT smooth scale or similar (David Ikedas) plugins. You need to create SOME wrinkles with geometry regardless if you use textures or not. Heres an example of what I mean by having proper flow makes the creation of wrinkles much easier.
http://www.splinegod.com/examples/gollum_wireframe.jpg

Keddy
12-07-2003, 07:04 AM
If you haven't got FI-wrinkle. You can use smoothshift, drag, merge, move which similar to FI-wrinkle. I used this old technique (see below) for ages. They are not fast as FI wrinkle but it still are useful. Thats how i learned this technique from brilliant Mike B.
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/thekhofx/images/wrinkle_small.gif

rickycox
12-08-2003, 02:39 AM
I guess veins are a bit like wrinkles, but how can you create extra veins braching off, without a Point intersected by 6 vertices.

SplineGod
12-08-2003, 02:57 AM
Usually Ill use spin quads or spin polygon pair. Sometimes smooth shifting a few polys as a group will help create new edges and then you can again redirect the flow using spin quads etc.

gruvsyco
12-08-2003, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by lwwiz
Hi there everyone I am working on a photo realistic head for a male that is around 35 to 45 years old.

wtf man... I'm 35 and there is no way you would need a wrinkle plugin. Now, on the other hand, when you get to the body, you may need an expanding mid section plugin.

CIM
12-08-2003, 04:34 AM
Everyone has wrinkles, however, most appear during extreme (or not) facial expressions.

rickycox
12-08-2003, 04:51 AM
One word for ya all 'Botox' :D

Thanks Larry, it sounds good.

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the replys guys but I have fls wrinkle but I cant ever get it to work here is a pic of my models head.
http://www.3d-wiz.com/pics/head.jpg

Niklas Collin
12-08-2003, 05:30 PM
FI_Wrinkle works fine, but you'll have to select at least three points which share same edges (i.e. you can't select two points and then go along edge which would exist in a triangle and select that point). I was confused because it didn't work, but I had selected only two points. After that it has worked like a dream. :)

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 05:32 PM
Soory it still doesnt work for me.

telamon
12-08-2003, 05:48 PM
just a small tut

http://www.ifrance.com/telamon01/Wrinkle.gif

Hope this helps ;)

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 05:57 PM
Nope I did that and it still doesnt work. how about I post the model up here and let you guys see iff you can get it to work.

Niklas Collin
12-08-2003, 06:08 PM
Sure thing, post it and we'll try to find out what's wrong.

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 06:12 PM
Here you go.
Head model. (http://www.3d-wiz.com/pics/head.rar)

Niklas Collin
12-08-2003, 06:19 PM
Works fine for me (see the attached pic). I'd suggest that you'll download the plug-in again, or keep on trying. ;)

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 06:20 PM
Yeah but that doesnt look like a wrinkle at all.

Niklas Collin
12-08-2003, 06:27 PM
No, it doesn't. But that is just a matter of modelling. FI_Wrinkle gives the necessary geometry easily you'll need for modelling the wrinkle. After that you'll just pull the points and presto!

I made a really quick example into your model. After applying the FI_Wrinkle I just used drag tool to make some quick modifications.

Hope that helps. :)

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 06:37 PM
Hmm I tryed that but it didnt quiet come out as good as yours. cant some one just model the wrinkles for me I cant figure it out.

Niklas Collin
12-08-2003, 06:52 PM
I made some quick wrinkles into your head model. See for yourself how I moved the points from the attached model.

ps. To make your life easier, you'll need more geometry to create good looking wrinkles. See the SplineGod's awesome model to get some kind of understanding how complex your model has to be for you to be able to control your wrinkles well enough. (Larry, hope you don't mind that I'm posting a link to your picture)

http://www.splinegod.com/examples/gollum_wireframe.jpg

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 06:58 PM
I dont know I am trying my best but I just cant figure it out Cant some one just do all the wrinkles for me so I dont have to go through this agervation.

Niklas Collin
12-08-2003, 07:14 PM
You won't learn anything if someone does all the hard work for you. Believe me, some times it looks so frustrating when someone makes something look so easy, I know. By trying and trying, you'll get better at it and you'll find out that it wasn't all that hard.

BTW, are you editing your model with SDS turned on or off? I'd suggest that you'll keep it on while creating your wrinkles, you'll see the result more easily.

And the way your modeler is laid out can also affect your workflow dramatically. Here is an example of my modeler while modelling organic models:

http://www.students.tut.fi/~collinn/modeler_layout.png

The model there is heavily under construction and it isn't the point here. The point is that both of the viewports are synchronised so that if I rotate the other, the other rotates too. Or if I move the other, the other follows. That way I can see where the points and polygons are and the same time can easily see my mesh without all those edges messing my view up. I used the same layout to model those wrinkles. Just used some drag tool...

Keep on trying, I know that you'll get to it!

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 07:19 PM
Okay How can I step up my modeler so it looks and does that.

Niklas Collin
12-08-2003, 07:26 PM
Go to Display -> View Options. Under Layout select Double vertical. Then under Viewports make sure that independent rotation, center and zoom are all unchecked. Make both viewports as perspective and left one as Wireframe Shade and right one as Texture. You may wan't to disable Guides, Normals, Cages and Grid (just a matter of taste) on both viewports. I also find it easier to see the mesh on right viewport if I also disable Show Point Selection and Show Polygon Selection in it. That should do it...

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 07:38 PM
Thanks

Steve Warner
12-08-2003, 07:42 PM
LWWiz,

You've got a decent head model, but it's going to be difficult to add wrinkles to it for two reasons: You've got a fair number of triangles and (more importantly), the flow of the polys doesn't mimic the natural muscle flow in the human face. This is most noticable in the area that runs from the bottom of the nose to the corner of the mouth. I spent about 15 minutes using Fi's Wrinkle to add in some extra geometry, Spin Quads to readjust the flow, and the drag tool to move the points around:

http://www.trinitymediainc.com/Help/wrinkles.jpg

I added wrinkles to the left side of the face but kept the right side intact so you can see the difference.

Once you've got the flow worked out and have eliminated the triangles, adding the wrinkles becomes a lot easier as they will fall in the proper places.

Hope this helps!

Steve

Niklas Collin
12-08-2003, 07:43 PM
No problem.

And I just noticed that Larry had already posted that pic of his Gollum onto this thread. I just had forgotten about that... :blush:

My my, what age does to your mind...

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 07:56 PM
Wow those wrinkles look good. since you already have those wrinkles done for the time being could I have the model that you edited but not with the wrinkles on the face just his for head.

Steve Warner
12-08-2003, 08:16 PM
I'll be real honest, LWwiz, and I'm not intending to sound harsh here. But your own signature says:

"Remeber nothing is impossible when you have lightwave."

I agree wholeheartedly with Niklas that doing the work yourself is the only way to truely grow as a LW artist. But, with that said, I also understand what it's like to be in a crunch and simply need it done. So I'm attaching the model. I don't have a version with just the forehead (this was all done at once and not saved incrementally). But you should be able to cut and paste the polys from the wrinkeled version into your original one.

Steve

lwwiz
12-08-2003, 08:19 PM
Thanks And my signature means that lightwave is a powerfull tool but it doesnt mean I can do everything I want with it.

st45
12-08-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Usually Ill use spin quads or spin polygon pair. Sometimes smooth shifting a few polys as a group will help create new edges and then you can again redirect the flow using spin quads etc.

What is "spin polygon pair?" I'm not finding it in the interface. Is this a plug-in that is not part of the LW7.5 package? If it does what the name sounds like, it would be essential.

SplineGod
12-08-2003, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Niklas Collin
No problem.

And I just noticed that Larry had already posted that pic of his Gollum onto this thread. I just had forgotten about that... :blush:

My my, what age does to your mind...
D'OH! I hate when that happens! Quite alright Nick. :)

SplineGod
12-08-2003, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by st45
What is "spin polygon pair?" I'm not finding it in the interface. Is this a plug-in that is not part of the LW7.5 package? If it does what the name sounds like, it would be essential.
Its not part of LW but is free. Check on flay.com
Theres also another one called spin tris. :)

Kroax
12-09-2003, 12:03 AM
btw LWWIZ : you might want to try the following:
once you are 100% satisfied with your model, freeze it (ctrl+D) so you have more edges to work with and than use the wrinkle plugin. you can freeze it at subpatch level : 2, add wrinkles and than hit TAB again...but i would rather freeze it at 3 or 4 or more levels and add wrinkles without smoothing it any more.

i am currently working on some heads and thats what works best for me .

private
12-09-2003, 04:37 AM
Originally posted by Steve Warner
http://www.trinitymediainc.com/Help/wrinkles.jpg


Steve, I noticed that on either side near the top, it's a nasty looking 7 polygons sharing a point. Are you worried about this? I've always tried to avoid even 6 polys sharing a point forming a star. I've noticed that Larry has used on in his Gollum model.

What do you think about it? Wouldn't your recommend reworking the mesh?

SplineGod
12-09-2003, 04:48 AM
Private,
I wouldnt worry about it unless you see rendering errors. :)
If you have problems with geometry in that configuration it would most likely occur where the geometry is being deformed. In that case you might want to rework the mesh to push stuff like that into non critical areas or where they can be easily hid. :)

Steve Warner
12-09-2003, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by private
Steve, I've always tried to avoid even 6 polys sharing a point forming a star. What do you think about it? Wouldn't your recommend reworking the mesh?
Hi Private,

You bring up an excellent point. :) The primary reason to avoid multiple polys attached to the same point is that it tweaks with the flow of your mesh and can quickly cause pinching if it's not dealt with properly. In the case of this model, the pinching would fall in the area of the wrinkles, and would appear quite natural. Consider the "crow's feet" at the corner of the eye. There are 12 polys sharing a single point! :eek: But in this case, it's not a problem. Still, you would want to keep a close watch on it. The best way to do this is to freeze your object occasionally. If you see unsightly pinching, it's time to spin quads and merge polys.

With this model in particular, I spent the majority of my time putting the wrinkles in and correcting the flow of LWWiz's model so that it more naturally mimiced the musculature of the human face. If I were to continue working on this, I would definitely go through and try to optimize it.

Thanks again for bringing that up. Hope this helps!

Steve

rickycox
12-09-2003, 05:02 AM
If your having a problem, try and work it out on paper or on a simple mesh, like a grid.
This will give you a better understanding of what your doing and you can take it back to the mesh.

private
12-09-2003, 05:24 AM
Thanks for the information.

lwwiz
12-09-2003, 03:13 PM
Hi Kroax how can I freeze it so it doesnt make so many polys though it makes it to like 2000 poly I think.

Niklas Collin
12-09-2003, 03:31 PM
Press "O" and turn Patch Divisions down (like 2 or 3).

lwwiz
12-09-2003, 03:32 PM
Okay Heres what I did I freezed my model when I had subdivision down at 1 and then I tried the wrinkle plugin. Am I headed in the right dirrection.
http://www.3d-wiz.com/pics/wrinkle.gif
Its kind of big but I just want to know iff I am headed the right way.

Steve Warner
12-09-2003, 04:02 PM
You're headed in the right direction for sure. A couple of things, though:

You should really try to spin the quads from the nose down to the mounth, preferably before you freeze and re-subpatch. If you don't work out the flow on this now, you'll run into troubles getting the face to deform properly when you animate.

Fi's wrinkle works by draggint the mouse up and down, and left and right. This will let you adjust how hard the wrinkle is.

Select more points than you think you're going to need. Wrinkle needs these extra points to create a decent fold in the skin.

Keep up the good work!

Steve

lwwiz
12-09-2003, 04:06 PM
Okay Il give it a try.

lwwiz
12-09-2003, 04:15 PM
Okay here it is another try at it. I selected more points than I thaught I needed.
http://www.3d-wiz.com/pics/wrinkle2 copy.gif

Steve Warner
12-09-2003, 06:30 PM
Here's a 600k animated gif showing the basic technique:

http://www.trinitymediainc.com/Help/wrinkles.gif


Hope this helps!

Steve

SplineGod
12-09-2003, 06:41 PM
Hey wiz,
Not too bad though you have a few more polys then needed.
You need to make the wrinkles look like they belong and wrinkles arent that deep. They should follow the flow of the face.
You do need to spin quads to get teh flow correct so you have it flowing around the "muzzle" of the face. You also want that fleshy part of the cheek that flow up into the bridge of the nose. Its bordered by the eyesocket on the top and the crease that runs from the corner fo the mouth to the wing of the nostril.
I have a video tutorial on my site showing how to use spin quads to fix flow. :)

Jonathan
12-10-2003, 12:14 AM
Yeah I agree, ya don't need alot of polys to get good wrinkles. I like to play the game of subtlety with my models however relying on bump maps for the finer wrinkles such as veins, and crows feet. I've even done forehead wrinkles in bump but most of the time I'll just model them.

Hey this is a good thread. :)

http://www.btinternet.com/~jonathan.west3/images/head_m.jpg

rickycox
12-10-2003, 01:48 AM
The wrinkles on this model look pretty good

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64575&highlight=old+dwarf

SplineGod
12-10-2003, 05:38 AM
Great example! Thanks Riki!

lwwiz
12-10-2003, 03:18 PM
Yeah thanks.

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