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View Full Version : Rendering Millions of Polygons with fR4 GPU


MKabesh
10-16-2012, 11:14 PM
Testing fR4 GPU on a scene with millions of polygons and a lot of materials:

http://www.cebas.org/blog/


Regards,
cebas Team

irwit
10-17-2012, 05:22 PM
Is it not worth showing a scene that looks nice to show these features? There's so many GPU renderers flying about now and your features are not showing anything Vray RT hasn't had for a while which is what most of your target market will be using? The scene you are showing looks worse than a computer game so is not really selling it for me to try it out?

Edwin Braun
10-17-2012, 05:39 PM
Dear irwit,

thanks for taking the time to comment about the video. We're showing a product in development. Our focus is not on being shiny and nice - the artists using our tools are much better at this. As it is under development, we are the only ones using this it is not finished yet and we concentrate on features for now. We just assumed that any good artists is able to understand that you can make a better grass model or assign a nicer green colour or even use a texture! :)

You're right there is lots of good GPU renderers out there! iray is free and comes with every 3ds Max you can use this if you want and try a scene like I showed. Regardless of the colours and shiny material you will choose it is not going to work :) that was my point on the presentation.

I'm sorry if you got the impression that we could only render ugly shiny green grass with floating trees (yes the tree is floating!).

take care
-ed

Decency
10-17-2012, 06:13 PM
Looks great to me, speed-wise. Maybe I missed it, but would you be able to share what hardware you are using?

irwit
10-18-2012, 07:57 AM
Dear irwit,

thanks for taking the time to comment about the video. We're showing a product in development. Our focus is not on being shiny and nice - the artists using our tools are much better at this. As it is under development, we are the only ones using this it is not finished yet and we concentrate on features for now. We just assumed that any good artists is able to understand that you can make a better grass model or assign a nicer green colour or even use a texture! :)

You're right there is lots of good GPU renderers out there! iray is free and comes with every 3ds Max you can use this if you want and try a scene like I showed. Regardless of the colours and shiny material you will choose it is not going to work :) that was my point on the presentation.

I'm sorry if you got the impression that we could only render ugly shiny green grass with floating trees (yes the tree is floating!).

take care
-ed

Hey man

My point wasn't saying it can only do uninteresting scenes, it was more trying to show something it can do that something else cant. Personally I like trying new renderers and I used to use FR a few years ago and liked some of the features. So if these videos were showing me something cool or different or even just a comparison speed test vs other renderers, I may be more inclined to try it out.

Edwin Braun
10-18-2012, 04:34 PM
Looks great to me, speed-wise. Maybe I missed it, but would you be able to share what hardware you are using?

That was done on a 7 year old MAC PRO Intel and a Quadro 5000 nothing too fancy. If you take the latest HW it would fly even more!

Finding the perfect Cards and Hardware is a complete different discussion.

-ed

refract
10-19-2012, 05:58 AM
Edwin.... I gotta say..keep up the great work,.. it looks amazing, but a few questions.

Is the grass instances? Deferred rendering of a poly object on a server? Vray has proxy's, (which saves an object on a server and loads it at rendertime) and I"m curious if I can instance a boatload of trees like Multiscatter. Or is this what your renderer is doing?

Using Maya these days... .. not Max..

And one more question.. Is PyroCluster now all incorporated in ThinkingParticles? PyroCluster was awesome.

mister3d
10-19-2012, 08:27 AM
thanks for taking the time to comment about the video. We're showing a product in development. Our focus is not on being shiny and nice - the artists using our tools are much better at this. As it is under development, we are the only ones using this it is not finished yet and we concentrate on features for now. We just assumed that any good artists is able to understand that you can make a better grass model or assign a nicer green colour or even use a texture! :)
But why not running it on a more complex scene, closer to a real one? Because when it runs with such simple objects, you feel like you've been cheated and it's not fast enough. Anything is fast with untextured simple objects, that's the problem.

Dillster
10-19-2012, 11:15 AM
But why not running it on a more complex scene, closer to a real one? Because when it runs with such simple objects, you feel like you've been cheated and it's not fast enough. Anything is fast with untextured simple objects, that's the problem.

Maybe the computer being 7 years old had a bearing on how complex a scene they could tackle? A newer computer could possibly have shown much better what fr4 is capable of.

CHRiTTeR
10-19-2012, 03:05 PM
Is it not worth showing a scene that looks nice to show these features? There's so many GPU renderers flying about now and your features are not showing anything Vray RT hasn't had for a while which is what most of your target market will be using? The scene you are showing looks worse than a computer game so is not really selling it for me to try it out?

it looks like the hidden reason why it looks like that is because they use a ton of instanced geometry and not 28m unique polys. Thats nothing new or special afaik.

I agree that such a 'simple' scene is no good marketting at all.

Edwin Braun
10-19-2012, 03:57 PM
Hey come on guys.... you know I can not win here. If I use the machine of our developer 24 Thread with a dual Tesla and K5000 you all say HE IS CHEATING no one has such hardware - the results are not normal.
Now I use every day hardware DUAL XEON, Q5000 and you still complain.

About the scenes, it is a bit tricky right now. We are in the middle of adding back the shaders and let me tell you this is hell! 3ds Max is a monster - the amount of options and possibilities are insane! How many of you ever used the "Output rollout" in the texture? SEE!
That's right now the biggest issue, we do not have all of those features working and we are not even in BETA with our product. We (cebas) are the only ones using it. As soon as our official beta starts you will see beautiful stuff from our Beta testers I'm sure about this - they are real artists.

-ed

gkmotu
10-22-2012, 08:51 PM
Do not engage in dialouge on this level with commons IMO
You get nothing but oppinions in return.
After all you are the creator, not anyone else. stick with that, stick with your plan and be transparent on the noise.

CHRiTTeR
10-22-2012, 09:09 PM
Do not engage in dialouge on this level with commons IMO
You get nothing but oppinions in return.
After all you are the creator, not anyone else. stick with that, stick with your plan and be transparent on the noise.

So basicly dont listen to customer feedback... great tip dude. :surprised :curious:

gkmotu
10-22-2012, 09:12 PM
correct, I hope you can see the banality of nitpicking developers videos.
carry on.

CHRiTTeR
10-22-2012, 09:15 PM
correct, I hope you can see the banality of nitpicking developers videos.
carry on.

It would be nitpicking if it was about small, unimportant details.. but its not.

gkmotu
10-22-2012, 09:17 PM
in your oppinion as a consumer, yeah.
backseat driving is always a pain for the man behind the wheele.
thus must be ignored and classified as noise.

CHRiTTeR
10-22-2012, 09:23 PM
in your oppinion as a consumer, yeah.
backseat driving is always a pain for the man behind the wheele.
thus must be ignored and classified as noise.

Or the engineering team ignoring the drivers feedback in a race. ;)

anyway, moving on from this.

AbnRanger
10-23-2012, 10:53 AM
Hey man

My point wasn't saying it can only do uninteresting scenes, it was more trying to show something it can do that something else cant. Personally I like trying new renderers and I used to use FR a few years ago and liked some of the features. So if these videos were showing me something cool or different or even just a comparison speed test vs other renderers, I may be more inclined to try it out.Hey man....that was the purpose of the videos. He puts them right under your nose and instead of watching them, still you complain. :rolleyes:

irwit
10-23-2012, 11:36 AM
Hey man....that was the purpose of the videos. He puts them right under your nose and instead of watching them, still you complain. :rolleyes:

Well as max user that uses 3rd party renderers, the very specific target market this renderer would be aimed at, this video has not enticed me to look any further into FR GPU. I'm dying to try out Arnold and Deep compositing because they have shown me videos that show something I cant currently do or something I can but better. This one hasn't, this is information that the company trying to sell a new renderer would want to know I think?

Surely the whole point of posting something like this is on a forum is for feedback?

AbnRanger
10-23-2012, 02:47 PM
Well as max user that uses 3rd party renderers, the very specific target market this renderer would be aimed at, this video has not enticed me to look any further into FR GPU. I'm dying to try out Arnold and Deep compositing because they have shown me videos that show something I cant currently do or something I can but better. This one hasn't, this is information that the company trying to sell a new renderer would want to know I think?

Surely the whole point of posting something like this is on a forum is for feedback?You didn't listen (or watch the videos), did you? ALL the videos show not only the new renderer, but the DIFFERENCES.

VRay RT is nice, but it has some major limitations (that I always bump into). The main thing is that in order for it to be as stable as possible, it operates outside of 3ds Max. That means no chance for previewing post effects like Afterburn, FumeFX, or Pyrocluster. No SSS and many others. fR's IR (even on the current R3.5) is more internally integrated, and thus you can preview most anything. There is nothing else for Max that does that.

It also is part of the renderer...not a separate module, like RT. So what you see is indeed what you're going to get. Granted, the IR is still a bit buggy, but this R4 GPU looks very promising. Not only is the preview/IR GPU accelerated, but the renderer itself (actually a GPU/CPU hybrid). Much different than what you have in others.

irwit
10-23-2012, 03:20 PM
You didn't listen (or watch the videos), did you? ALL the videos show not only the new renderer, but the DIFFERENCES.

VRay RT is nice, but it has some major limitations (that I always bump into). The main thing is that in order for it to be as stable as possible, it operates outside of 3ds Max. That means no chance for previewing post effects like Afterburn, FumeFX, or Pyrocluster. No SSS and many others. fR's IR (even on the current R3.5) is more internally integrated, and thus you can preview most anything. There is nothing else for Max that does that.

It also is part of the renderer...not a separate module, like RT. So what you see is indeed what you're going to get. Granted, the IR is still a bit buggy, but this R4 GPU looks very promising. Not only is the preview/IR GPU accelerated, but the renderer itself (actually a GPU/CPU hybrid). Much different than what you have in others.

Ok, fair enough :)

AJ
10-23-2012, 03:37 PM
You didn't listen (or watch the videos), did you? ALL the videos show not only the new renderer, but the DIFFERENCES.Firstly, calm down - it's just some software. :)

Secondly, I've watched the video posted and can't see a single thing that distances it from the current competition. I'm not saying there aren't things in fR4 GPU that iray or V-ray RT can't do, but from the video posted (which we are discussing) it's not doing anything to separate itself from the real-time previews currently being used in production by Max users

AbnRanger
10-23-2012, 03:40 PM
Firstly, calm down - it's just some software. :)

Secondly, I've watched the video posted and can't see a single thing that distances it from the current competition. I'm not saying there aren't things in fR4 GPU that iray or V-ray RT can't do, but from the video posted (which we are discussing) it's not doing anything to separate itself from the real-time previews currently being used in production by Max usersThe capitalized words are for emphasis, not shouting.

AbnRanger
10-23-2012, 03:42 PM
double post...sorry.

Edwin Braun
10-23-2012, 04:06 PM
Hey I didn't want to stir up so much fights about believing what is better or not. I showed several things you can not do in iRay IT JUST DOES NOT WORK what we can do right now (even with our prototype software).

I would like to add to this discussion that the single idea a renderer is better than the other and for that I will chose, is highly unrealistic. Many things have to bee seen on a larger scale. Lets take IES lights for example some renderers (you know which one) do not even support 3ds Max IES lights! They have their own IES lights - have you ever wondered why a developer chose to do so ?
The same is true for physical camera. Some developers chose to not make it a standard camera. Ever wondered why they did it ?
There is a reason behind every single bit of software feature out there - no one randomly codes stuff. There is purpose and a plan behind all of the things you see. The 2 simple examples shown above explain that as a developer you can choose not to be compatible with your target platform and introduce your independent and isolated tools in a software package (3ds Max).
Does this mean it is bad ? No - for sure not. It just means you have restrictions in using it (you can not use all materials and atmospheircs). As it seems many users do not care about this which is also totally fine.

-ed

AbnRanger
10-23-2012, 04:09 PM
There is a major difference. With RT, I know from experience, you have at least a few seconds delay while it loads the scene. This one is instant...period. It's much faster overall, from what I can tell. And again, the major distinction is that it is tightly integrated, so that most anything you can render (including volumetric effects, post effects, SSS, etc) with finalRender or even Scanline....you can see near realtime previews. All shaders/materials. That's BIG. Why? Cause no other renderer, native or 3rd party offers that capability in 3ds Max.

What's more is you get a full-featured volumetric shading engine (comparable to Afterburn) included, along with fRScatter (similar to VRay Scatter), and an Ocean object and Material feature.

You currently have this Interactive Rendering in fR3.5, but it's not GPU accelerated, thus not as fast/instantaneous, and it is still a bit buggy (been told it is due to known Max limitations). If you have ever seen Ligthwave's VPR, and how well integrated it is....fR 3.5 is a good comparison. fR 4 looks so much faster. Preview and Rendering. I'm pretty stoked about it.

irwit
10-23-2012, 04:25 PM
You didn't listen (or watch the videos), did you? ALL the videos show not only the new renderer, but the DIFFERENCES.

VRay RT is nice, but it has some major limitations (that I always bump into). The main thing is that in order for it to be as stable as possible, it operates outside of 3ds Max. That means no chance for previewing post effects like Afterburn, FumeFX, or Pyrocluster. No SSS and many others. fR's IR (even on the current R3.5) is more internally integrated, and thus you can preview most anything. There is nothing else for Max that does that.

It also is part of the renderer...not a separate module, like RT. So what you see is indeed what you're going to get. Granted, the IR is still a bit buggy, but this R4 GPU looks very promising. Not only is the preview/IR GPU accelerated, but the renderer itself (actually a GPU/CPU hybrid). Much different than what you have in others.


Right, I've just re-watched the video in question and none of your points about being more integrated, closer to final render, etc are mentioned in that particular video, ie the one that this thread is talking about and the one I watched and made my points on. So a bit unfair to try and make out that I've not watched the video in question.

Cheers anyway for adding some info on why this renderer is different to Iray, RT, will be more inclined to keep an eye on progress :)

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