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mirkoj
11-30-2003, 01:03 PM
Does anyone have infos about these two cards?
I need one of them for maya, so diferences, advantages etc..
Page with charts would be great.
And please don't say:"just get quadro fx1000 or 3000, or maybe wildcat xxxxxxx" :)))))
Thank you

stephen2002
11-30-2003, 01:07 PM
9800Pro - A LOT faster. Certain features, espeically in Maya, will not be usable.
FX5600 - Slower. All features in Maya will be usable.

Please search for more details.

OrochiBH
11-30-2003, 02:46 PM
If any of you read reviews on Motherboards.org, I read in the latest review for the ASUS GeForce FX5900 Ultra 256MB DDR videocard (which is considered to be the best out there right now) that the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB DDR actually succeeded in more areas of testing and benchmarking than the FX5900 Ultra did. But that was in the area of gaming, not using 3D apps.

So if you're more of a gamer than a 3D modeler, or you're making models for games, then in my own opinion, I'd go for the 9800 Pro, but if you're more of a modeler for movie animations or still life 3D art, then go with the FX5600, or if you feel like dishing out $200 more ;) , you can get the FX5900 Ultra, which should allow you to use all the features available in Maya, just like the FX5600.


Oh, btw, I'm new here, and pretty much new to the 3D community. I will be posting some of my works (which were just successful tests I was experimenting with to get used to 3DS Max :P ) some time soon. I hope to have fun here as much as I have fun modeling!

Sieb
11-30-2003, 04:31 PM
I use an AIW9800Pro, a way better value compared to FXs. I haven't run into any issues in Maya yet.

elvis
11-30-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by stephen2002
Please search for more details.

yeah, it would be nice if people searched first and asked questions second. although i've been criticised for suggesting that in the past a few times now...

Sieb
12-01-2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by elvis
yeah, it would be nice if people searched first and asked questions second. although i've been criticised for suggesting that in the past a few times now...

I've given up reminding everyone.. :hmm:

3Dfx_Sage
12-01-2003, 02:53 AM
one advantage of the Radeon is that you can use a RivaTuner (a tweaking program) to change the PCI ID of the card to a FireGL X2 which will allow you to install the FireGL drivers. This gives you full functionality of the FireGL card as the Radeon 9800 and FireGL X2 chips are the exact same thing, the boards just identify themselves differently. The difference is you won't get any technical support from ATi (apart from driver updates and such) unless you switch it back to a Radeon.

mirkoj
12-01-2003, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Sieb
I've given up reminding everyone.. :hmm:

I did looked around :) But I need a few field testing infos and experiences with cards and not just numbers :)))
Thanks guys. I think I'll go for radeon :)

OrochiBH
12-01-2003, 08:40 PM
I was just reading in another thread from a student that has current problems with his Radeon 9600 not working with Maya too well at all, so maybe you should go for the Geforce instead after rethinking it, or if you could invest in a Quadro FX, that would work great for what you're working with. It's still up to you in the long run though.

mirkoj
12-02-2003, 12:56 AM
Ok guys, just one last thing.
Do you think is it worth to invest in the quadro fx 1000, or to go with the best (fastest) gaming card version? Is it worth diference in the price? Honestly, |I never had chance to work on the system with quadro or any other pro class card so I really can't compare them but....
So, quadro fx 1000, really couldn't afford better :) or to go with the fastest game class card?
I need it for maya. Thank you all

CgFX
12-02-2003, 02:50 AM
Even the sub-$300 Quadro FX 500 would be faster, more stable, and better for maya than the fastest gaming card. The Quadro FX 1000 would be the best price/perf.

3Dfx_Sage
12-02-2003, 03:46 AM
for maya, but no gaming, the fx500 is a great buy.

Novakog
12-02-2003, 04:18 AM
Again, after searching, you would find that Radeons (and even FireGLs so I've heard) are awful for Maya, so go with the FX.

3dfx_sage mentioned rivatuner, which allows you to softmod a Radeon to a FireGL, but FX cards can also be softmodded (using softquadro or whatever) to Quadro FX cards and it's basically the same as getting a Quadro FX card (GF FX 5900 goes to QFX 3000, don't know what 5600 goes to). If you're primarily using Maya, go with the nVidia, but if you're doing a lot of gaming, go with the Radeon.

Personally, I think the best route of choice would be to wait until the NV40 comes out, which SHOULD (no guarantees) be at the time the best for games and great for Maya. That's what I'm gonna do...

3Dfx_Sage
12-02-2003, 04:21 AM
yes, you can convert nVidia GeForces to Quadro's as well. but, it's a bit more complicated and nVidia keeps making it even more so. Also, you won't get antialiased lines.

CgFX
12-02-2003, 05:04 AM
Softquadro can only affect the driver/software side of things. It can not change on-chip differences between Quadro and GeForce. This is why Softquadro does not fully work (or work at all) since GeForce4, including GeForce FX.

A GeForce FX 5900 can not be fully turned into a Quadro FX 3000, period.

There were reports of a handful of eval/review GeForce FX 5800 cards being fully turned into Quadro FX 2000 cards which was likely because of samples being built with NV30GL chips instead of NV30 chips. nVidia may have even shipped production boards like this with GeForce PCI ID's before the GeForce FX 5800 was almost immediately EOL'ed.

Novakog
12-02-2003, 06:31 AM
Yes, there are some disadvantages with the softquadroing, but for the most part they work pretty well (there are few hardware differences between the Quadro FX and GeForce FX as far as I know, if any) and are so very cheap (and work a lot better than a soft FireGL).

CgFX
12-02-2003, 09:17 AM
There are a lot of differences between GeForce FX and Quadro FX. Some of them are simply performance related and some of them are feature related. Some of it is on the software/driver side and some of it is on-chip or board level.

I guess it all depends on if you are using pirated Maya or not.

If you have the dough for Maya, the priice of a Quadro4 980 XGL or Quadro FX 1000 and the perf/stability/support that comes with them is nothing.

loop29
12-02-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by CgFX
There are a lot of differences between GeForce FX and Quadro FX. Some of them are simply performance related and some of them are feature related. Some of it is on the software/driver side and some of it is on-chip or board level.

I guess it all depends on if you are using pirated Maya or not.

If you have the dough for Maya, the priice of a Quadro4 980 XGL or Quadro FX 1000 and the perf/stability/support that comes with them is nothing.

I agree 100% to your opinion. But there are cases where people can spend money for the software package and donīt have additional cash spending it on the recommended hardware, especially when you consider complete new 3d computer.

Geforce FX 5800/Ultra is completely identical to Quadro FX 2000. The only thing you have to change is the resistor under the heat spreader of the GPU which would be resistor from position A to B regarding to the picture I posted in a thread sometime ago.

Search the next eletronic service store and let them do the shift or let them put in a new 10k ohm resistor on the position B and youīre done. Enjoy your new shiny Quadro FX and be pleased by the performance it will put out in all applications. I recommend the FX 5800 without the FlowFX solution which I guess would be easier to remove. But CgFX these were not early samples of NV30 with NV30GL chips, there was no NV30 chip, they only produced NV30GL chips because nv was pretty aware of the flaws in the pipeline architecture and stopped all nv 30 production in favour of NV35 pretty early (thatīs the reason while NV30 boards were not much present on the market after introduction, thatīs just speculation but makes sense to me). All reports on NV30 with 44.xx and 45.xx were successful in applying softmodification because of screwed nvstrap protection. That has changed in forceware drivers because of new detection system, I think the driver looks up hardwired PCIdeviceID from resistor I mentioned earlier.

On NV35 the situation has changed back to additional registers on the GPU which are used for identification of Quadro chips.

have fun

3Dfx_Sage
12-03-2003, 12:21 AM
the extra features can be enabled, but it's much more difficult. I used to have lineAA running on my SoftQuadro. As for assuming everyone who can afford Maya can afford $1300 video card makes sense... until you consider that they might not have enough money left after buying the apps. So, I could say the opposite and assume that everyone who is able to buy expensive gfx cards is only able to do so because they saved money by stealing the software... oh yeah, should I mention educational discounts and the learning version?

Novakog
12-03-2003, 02:58 AM
Ya, what they said.

loop29
12-03-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
the extra features can be enabled, but it's much more difficult. I used to have lineAA running on my SoftQuadro.

LineAA is available on FX 5800, scores on UGS from the Specviewperformance 7.1 are identical with original Quadro FX. UGS test makes heavy use of LineAA and is prove for correctly working hardware feature on NV30.

Run All Summary

---------- SUM_RESULTS\3DSMAX\SUMMARY.TXT
3dsmax-02 Weighted Geometric Mean = 21.59

---------- SUM_RESULTS\DRV\SUMMARY.TXT
drv-09 Weighted Geometric Mean = 123.2

---------- SUM_RESULTS\DX\SUMMARY.TXT
dx-08 Weighted Geometric Mean = 107.5

---------- SUM_RESULTS\LIGHT\SUMMARY.TXT
light-06 Weighted Geometric Mean = 23.66

---------- SUM_RESULTS\PROE\SUMMARY.TXT
proe-02 Weighted Geometric Mean = 35.93

---------- SUM_RESULTS\UGS\SUMMARY.TXT
ugs-03 Weighted Geometric Mean = 44.45


AMD XP 2000+

greets

CgFX
12-03-2003, 02:13 PM
Loop,

I thought we had covered FX 5800? Many or all of those boards when out with NV30GL chips it would seem. Get one if you can find one I guess (and change the thermal solution).

None of that applies to any other GeForce FX product.

GregHess
12-03-2003, 02:33 PM
Before you guys get into too much of the...

"Its the same gpu" Bullsh%t, try out maya 5's hardware renderer.

Don't look at the fact it may or may not work with the Geforce FX's...but look at the percision of the render over multiple frames.

Compare each frame in Photoshop with the "difference" layer effect.

Compare to a Quadro FX.

Realize they're not the same gpu.

Or just just stay blissfully unaware.

stephen2002
12-03-2003, 03:06 PM
Greg: An interesting point. Care to post an example image? How does it change if you use a SoftQuadroed GeForce card?

GregHess
12-03-2003, 03:14 PM
No unfortuantly I don't have a sample image.

I am currently without a copy of Maya5 so can't provide direct evidence.

I will see if I can get permission to post the images done by the tester.

I don't know what effect softquadro has offhand, but I don't believe drivers had any effect on percision.

It would be interesting to find out if the Geforce FX's or Softquadro'd FX's work in Maya 5's hardware gpu renderer at all.

Its an excellent test to finally bury the whole Geforce/Quadro issues.

loop29
12-03-2003, 04:16 PM
Good point, Greg. Letīs see if we can find somebody who can supply us with sample images. I will see if I can find some users of Maya 5 who can supply images from hardware renderer. If somebody reads that thread with a FX 5800 (ultra) and has Maya 5 installed, it would be great if this person could support us. I would give instructions for doing the software mod on 44.xx and 45.xx drivers, even a 5900 would work I guess because of the partially working mod.

Letīs get it on...

P.S.: I only have softquadroed Geforce 4 Ti 4400 but could supply images from the hardware renderer if we could agree on a scene thatīs available for everyone. There must be some scenes on the benchmark sites for maya.

stephen2002
12-03-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
Its an excellent test to finally bury the whole Geforce/Quadro issues.

Give it more fact, yes, bury it, I don't think so. There is still and issue where if you are on a buget (or are just doing this for fun) you might be able to eek some more preformance out of your much cheaper gaming card by using SoftQuadro. Will it be the same as a real Quadro, no! Will it be faster, probably.

I think this test would be great though if we can post up compairson images. Really this is what a lot of review sites are starting to do to compair the rendered image of the card to the images provided by the DX9 SDK software render. The software and hardware renders are never identical but almost all of the time the difference is so little you have to sit there with Photoshop difference layer effects to be able to tell.

GregHess
12-03-2003, 06:23 PM
you have to sit there with Photoshop difference layer effects to be able to tell.

Aye, but not when your doing animations.

Differences in each frame will cause artifacts, shearing, odd pixels, etc etc.

Be akin to using a really shotty setting on your GI renders.

Not an argument so much as why not to use a geforce card, but additional evidence that its not just a resistor that differentiates the two lines.

Novakog
12-03-2003, 09:52 PM
Wait, you can do GI renders with Maya's hardware renderer? Why have I not heard this before?

3Dfx_Sage
12-04-2003, 12:36 AM
actually, i think it will clearly demonstrate how much impact the drivers have. nvidia has cut way down on the image quality with their GFFX drivers- did you know that they dont even do real trilinear filtering anymore!? gamers are, in general, not knowlegabe enough to realize whats being done, as well as many dont care about IQ. Professionals, on the other hand, would not put up with that crap even if it makes it a little slower.

stephen2002
12-04-2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Novakog
Wait, you can do GI renders with Maya's hardware renderer? Why have I not heard this before?

Not that I know of. I think Greg was just using GI renders with low evaluation toleracnes as an example of the artifacting that can be seen when doing an animation with a low amount of presision.

CgFX
12-05-2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
did you know that they dont even do real trilinear filtering anymore!?

Can you back that up a bit please with some data and (respectable) references? Thanks.

The last I read from nVidia was that with their 5x.00 drivers that was no longer an issue.

rakoon
12-05-2003, 12:17 PM
Don't want to make a stupin question: all what u all said it's valid for 3DSMAX also?
In the end...what's the best platform for whos want to model primarly than gaming? Nvidia Geforce FX or Ati Radeon 9800 Pro ?

artmann
12-05-2003, 01:05 PM
i dunno about later geforce fx cards/softquadro. but my sofquadro quadro dcc (geforce 3) works flawlessly with the maya hardware render buffer.

loop29
12-05-2003, 02:06 PM
artmann, is it possible that you can post some of the frames you have done with hardware render buffer? Iīm not to familiar with the functionality of hardware rendering cause Maya is not my primary development platform. Could you give some insights of what is possible with HRB and what not, especially differences between software rendering and hardware rendering?
I wonder why I can view realtime cgshaders in the viewport but they donīt render in the software and hardware renderer, thatīs somehow odd I think. Shouldnīt be at least the GPU be able to render out the shaders it can produce in viewport?

CgFX, I think 3Dfx is talking about the "brilinear filter", I only know a german source:

http://www.3dcenter.de/artikel/2003/10-26_a.php

Maybe you can understand with babelfish.

regards

ironbooker
12-05-2003, 02:15 PM
Anyone here had already installed the patch to make his Radeon 9800 to FireGL? It works well?

CgFX
12-05-2003, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by artmann
i dunno about later geforce fx cards/softquadro. but my sofquadro quadro dcc (geforce 3) works flawlessly with the maya hardware render buffer.
Yes, that is to be expected since GeForce 3 and Quadro DCC use the same NV20 chip. The Quadro features are enabled via the PCI ID of the card (resistors on the board that the BIOS reads) which the driver sees. Softquadro changes that to turn GeForce 3 and ealier GeForce cards in to Quadro cards which enables the extra Quadro-specific features on the GPU.

For Quadro4 and later the GPU is actually different which is why Softquadro is no longer effective for on-GPU features and only partially effective for driver level features.

motoxpress
12-05-2003, 04:25 PM
Just to clarify....

Are we saying that an FX5800, with softquadro, is equivilent to an FX2000 If the a/b resistor is set properly?

I just wanted to make sure I understand what is being said.

-mx

loop29
12-05-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by motoxpress
Just to clarify....

Are we saying that an FX5800, with softquadro, is equivilent to an FX2000 If the a/b resistor is set properly?

I just wanted to make sure I understand what is being said.

-mx

Yes, thatīs what I posted on the second page. You can try out with 44.xx and 45.xx drivers, cause nvstrap antiprotection is broken in these drivers. However, that only proofs that NV30 is capable of NV30GL features, that what Iīm curious about is how a modified 5800 will behave in hardware rendering in Maya compared to a Quadro FX 1000/2000.

regards

motoxpress
12-05-2003, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by loop29
Yes, thatīs what I posted on the second page. You can try out with 44.xx and 45.xx drivers, cause nvstrap antiprotection is broken in these drivers. However, that only proofs that NV30 is capable of NV30GL features, that what Iīm curious about is how a modified 5800 will behave in hardware rendering in Maya compared to a Quadro FX 1000/2000.

regards

Well, since I am a 3DS user i don't mind taking the chance on it since I am pretty confident that most of the features max supports will be there - no HW rendering. (Although I am considering Maya as I have yet to purchase 3DS6)

Maya PLE would be sufficient correct? If someone wants to provide a sample maya file that we could use as a means of testing I can render it on my system and someone with an offical FX2000 can do it on there's for comparison.

-mx

loop29
12-05-2003, 09:41 PM
That would be great if you could post some results, PLE should be enough if hw rendering is available. But itīs good that you have max there, you can check if the modification was successful if you can install maxtreme, thatīs possible too if it works like it should. You only need to use nvstrap, softquadro 4 is not needed on the 44.03 drivers. So it goes like this: install Rivatuner 2.0 RC 14.1 and install nvstrap, donīt reboot yet, uninstall your current driver first. In the nvstrap tab on the hardware configuration menu you have to force quadro or custom and quadro FX 2000 or quadro FX 1000, doesnīt matter cause it wonīt change clockspeeds. After reboot it will find new hardware and you can choose manually installation (note that you have to unpack the driver for this) or use setup and after next reboot you should have Quadro FX installed, verify with maxtreme or check advanced openGL preference tab if the application list is available.

regards

motoxpress
12-05-2003, 09:51 PM
Ok. I will have to get back to you on this as I am in the process of building the workstation currently. Once it's ready to go, I will report back the results.

-mx

motoxpress
12-06-2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by loop29
I agree 100% to your opinion. But there are cases where people can spend money for the software package and donīt have additional cash spending it on the recommended hardware, especially when you consider complete new 3d computer.

Geforce FX 5800/Ultra is completely identical to Quadro FX 2000. The only thing you have to change is the resistor under the heat spreader of the GPU which would be resistor from position A to B regarding to the picture I posted in a thread sometime ago.

Search the next eletronic service store and let them do the shift or let them put in a new 10k ohm resistor on the position B and youīre done. Enjoy your new shiny Quadro FX and be pleased by the performance it will put out in all applications. I recommend the FX 5800 without the FlowFX solution which I guess would be easier to remove. But CgFX these were not early samples of NV30 with NV30GL chips, there was no NV30 chip, they only produced NV30GL chips because nv was pretty aware of the flaws in the pipeline architecture and stopped all nv 30 production in favour of NV35 pretty early (thatīs the reason while NV30 boards were not much present on the market after introduction, thatīs just speculation but makes sense to me). All reports on NV30 with 44.xx and 45.xx were successful in applying softmodification because of screwed nvstrap protection. That has changed in forceware drivers because of new detection system, I think the driver looks up hardwired PCIdeviceID from resistor I mentioned earlier.

On NV35 the situation has changed back to additional registers on the GPU which are used for identification of Quadro chips.

have fun

Couple of more questions:

1) With the change to the resistor, do you still have to use the softquadro mod?

2) When you say "FlowFX" do you mean that huge fan system on the card? Who manufactured them without? wouldn't the card overheat without it?

thanks. I am justtrying to gather more data before I commit to a paticular card.

-mx

loop29
12-06-2003, 08:40 AM
1) Nope, if the GPUīs are identical and I suppose they are, the driver has no chance to make a difference even if it looks up hardwired ID, cause if you changed to B it should be 0308, thatīs what the PCI Device ID of a Quadro FX is.

2) The FX 5800 (non ultra) has a standard cooling system, when I say standard, I mean a cooler and a metal body attached to the GPU and memory, no channels leading to the PCI breakouts in the case.

So before you start thinking of doing this modification you should be able to rely on another card, this is just playing around with hardware and some kind of research that you would do, so if you plan to use the card in the near future for serious work I suggest you should count in that especially when you do the resistor shift it can go wrong if it isnīt done correctly.

regards

motoxpress
12-06-2003, 02:20 PM
Got it. thanks :thumbsup:

-mx

Klark
12-12-2003, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by motoxpress
Ok. I will have to get back to you on this as I am in the process of building the workstation currently. Once it's ready to go, I will report back the results.

-mx

How has it gone?

Iīm in the process of upgrading my Geo3@QuadroDCC to something newer and better but have been waiting to find the perfect solution for me. This would be a "cheap" card that can be modified to perform well in Maya and still be able to play a little bit of games during the weekend.

As far as I have understood things: I should go with a FX5800. But which one? Is there a difference between the Ultras and non-Ultras?

Cheers/Klark

stephen2002
12-12-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Klark
Is there a difference between the Ultras and non-Ultras?

The Ultras are clocked faster and typically have a larger cooling solution than the non-ultra. Other than that they are technically identical.

I'm pretty sure the 5800 Ultra was the one with the "FlowFX" cooling solution. Avoid it if you can as those things are rather loud.

3Dfx_Sage
12-12-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Klark
How has it gone?

Iīm in the process of upgrading my Geo3@QuadroDCC to something newer and better but have been waiting to find the perfect solution for me. This would be a "cheap" card that can be modified to perform well in Maya and still be able to play a little bit of games during the weekend.

As far as I have understood things: I should go with a FX5800. But which one? Is there a difference between the Ultras and non-Ultras?

Cheers/Klark

from what I understand. all 5800's actually use the NV30GL chip which means if you move the GF/Quadro resistor you will get full quadro functionality without having to use any SOftQuadro scripts or anything like that. I'm considering buying one to do that to and just build a seperate comp for gaming...

motoxpress
12-13-2003, 12:09 AM
Here (http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=FX5800-TD) is a 5800 that compgeeks is selling. From the picture it appears to have the flowfx on it. Is that correct?

-mx

3Dfx_Sage
12-13-2003, 12:25 AM
negative. however, that is MSI... i will never touch anything MSI again...

motoxpress
12-13-2003, 12:30 AM
So from this picture, where is the resistor?

http://www.msi.com.tw/images/product_img/vga_img/8904.jpg

-mx

3Dfx_Sage
12-13-2003, 04:31 AM
Originally posted by motoxpress
So from this picture, where is the resistor? under the heatsink, on the chip packaging (if I remember correctly...)

Klark
12-13-2003, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by 3Dfx_Sage
from what I understand. all 5800's actually use the NV30GL chip which means if you move the GF/Quadro resistor you will get full quadro functionality without having to use any SOftQuadro scripts or anything like that. I'm considering buying one to do that to and just build a seperate comp for gaming...

So it doesnīt matter at all which FX5800 I buy? They are all the same thing apart from the Ultras being a little faster and louder? Do you have a link to a step-by-step-tutorial to doing the hardmod?

stephen2002
12-13-2003, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by motoxpress
Here (http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=FX5800-TD) is a 5800 that compgeeks is selling. From the picture it appears to have the flowfx on it. Is that correct?-mx

No, that is the "standard" NVIDIA cooling solution for their higher end cards. The FlowFX solution can be seen (and heard)here (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1779&p=3).

motoxpress
12-13-2003, 02:40 PM
Ahhh. Ok, thanks for the clarification.

-mx

3Dfx_Sage
12-13-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Klark
Do you have a link to a step-by-step-tutorial to doing the hardmod? nope, I've been looking for one though. I'm pretty sure someone on this board had said that they had done it... I wonder if we might get them to share their experiences :thumbsup:

Levitateme
12-14-2003, 09:25 AM
I have a geforce fx 5900 ultra. and im really dissapointed with Nvidia and there newest drivers. i like the card, but i would really search around with what your going to buy. i searched for about a week before i got my card.

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