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Julez4001
11-27-2003, 04:01 PM
Will hypervoxel benefit from the upgrade?
Any speed boost or doubler or any modifications.
Maybe a 3rd party upgrade to it like Max's really nice looking Afterburner.

Hv's rendertime for really nice looking effects are
really astronomical.

HowardM
11-27-2003, 04:13 PM
yeah i agree!
especially when rendering at HD res, volumetrics arent 4 or 5 times longer but 12-20!
we need a doubler BAD!

LittleFenris
11-27-2003, 04:37 PM
Yeah, optimizing and speeding up hypervoxels and particles would be a great help to render times and workflow and production in general.

ThreeDBFX
11-27-2003, 05:50 PM
I asked at the LW user meeting if there were any updates to HV's and I was told NO.

Hopefully in a future release, this will be addressed.

CIM
11-27-2003, 09:23 PM
The guy who created and maintained HyperVoxels is with Luxology now, and I'm guessing that Newtek doesn't have a extra expert on volume shading and rendering handy to work on it.

You ppl. should be asking for hardware rendering, not fast volume or voxel rendering (not going to happen anytime soon).

E_Moelzer
11-28-2003, 06:31 AM
and I'm guessing that Newtek doesn't have a extra expert on volume shading and rendering handy to work on it.
<---

Never say never ;)
CU
Elmar

SplineGod
11-28-2003, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by E_Moelzer
<---

Never say never ;)
CU
Elmar
He meant besides you Elmar :thumbsup:

E_Moelzer
11-28-2003, 12:45 PM
Hehe, well it is not only me actually...
The arrow was pointing towards my avatar which is related to volumetrics in LW, not meant to point to my name as that...
Still, I think that Cims information is a tad outdated maybe?
CU
Elmar

HowardM
11-28-2003, 03:40 PM
WHAT?! that skull with muscles is 3D volumertics!?
:)

E_Moelzer
11-28-2003, 03:58 PM
yes, this is a volume- rendering.

Here is a very, very small preview of the plugin (only temporary site until we find some time to update the page, hopefully soon):

http://www.mediastudio-graz.com/html/volumedic_eng.htm

It is still not entirely finished. We could ship it now, if we wanted to. But we want to add a few final touches first.
We even have a realtime- OpenGL- preview, but it is a bit slow because of the limits of the current SDK...
Actually we have tested 3 different methods for realtime- OpenGL- previews...
Custom- objects the way they are now in LW, do not allow for very sophisticated things though (like trilinear filtering shear warps etc)...
The solution we are using at the moment is a bit different from the usual approach to this, but gives pretty good results.
You will definitely hear and see more about it in the near future...
CU
Elmar

HowardM
11-28-2003, 04:08 PM
ooh is it like Visable Human? (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/research/visible/visible_human.html) , so we can slice it?

so how long does it take to render?
and can it do smoke and fire?
:)

E_Moelzer
11-28-2003, 04:22 PM
Hey!
Well unlike the visible human project you can use CT/MRI/PET/SPECT/3DUS data of any human, or of any living creature (there are even specialy CTs for horses).
You can view the slices too but it is meant to render real 3d- renderings with shading etc.
It is not meant for fire and smoke, but you could do that as well, if you really wanted to.
More solid objects work best though.
Rendertimes depend on the desired quality and a few other factors, but a 640x480- rendering of the head (at this quality- level) to the left takes no more than 30 seconds.
With lower quality we got as low as two seconds for a 320x240 rendering.
The visible human project makes a pretty good base- dataset for this though. I wished I had it for our tests. AFAIK the VHP has 2k res for each slice and a very low slice- distance. For comparison the head to the left had only 256x256 slice- res and a not that optimal slice- distance. However we were still able to achieve pretty good results from this data.
CU
Elmar

HowardM
11-28-2003, 04:41 PM
any chance we could somehow take a 3D model and turn it into slices and texture them, etc for cool effects or will this only use high tech data?

E_Moelzer
11-28-2003, 04:45 PM
We have been thinking about a feature like this actually.
The other way round is already possible ;)
I would like to mention though, that this particular plugin is primarily meant for scientiffic viz and medical viz.
It is NOT meant as a replacement for HyperVoxels.
CU
Elmar

KillMe
11-28-2003, 05:07 PM
oh sweet - newtek employ these guys thats some very very sweet volumetric tech there

Julez4001
11-28-2003, 06:01 PM
I just want faster fire and smoke render..new tech is kool but lets optimized the old stuff first. How about hire the guys who made AfterBurner for Max.

CIM
11-28-2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Julez4001
I just want faster fire and smoke render..new tech is kool but lets optimized the old stuff first. How about hire the guys who made AfterBurner for Max.

That's why there is hardware rendering (in other packages). 99% of the time, volume rendering is a waste of time. Unless you're doing a cloud fly through or some complex 3D motion, you'll get perfectly fine results with hardware rendering.

wgreenlee1
11-28-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by CIM
That's why there is hardware rendering (in other packages). 99% of the time, volume rendering is a waste of time. Unless you're doing a cloud fly through or some complex 3D motion, you'll get perfectly fine results with hardware rendering.

can u give us an example of maybe a software package that might be capable of that plz?thx.....

KillMe
11-28-2003, 10:06 PM
knowing cim he'll tell you maya can do hardware rendering but there was a lightwave plug that could do this - hm cant rmemeber where though

sure someone around ehre knows though

SplineGod
11-28-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by wgreenlee1
can u give us an example of maybe a software package that might be capable of that plz?thx.....
Maya has hardware particle rendering and jetstreamfx for lightwave does it.

Julez4001
11-29-2003, 02:28 AM
Unfortunately Jetstream needs to integrated.
Seems like somebody side project, Newtek need to hirre them and polish this app up.

SplineGod
11-29-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by Julez4001
Unfortunately Jetstream needs to integrated.
Seems like somebody side project, Newtek need to hirre them and polish this app up.
Too late, they already did. :)

Miyazaki
11-29-2003, 01:20 PM
Do you need a certified card for using jetstream or is it sufficient to use a low budget consumer card ?
Im not familiar with Maya HR but GF2,3, and 4 are not qualified for HR in Maya.

illustrativ
11-29-2003, 05:17 PM
i want liquid to render faster, the other day i did some tests and it took me more than 1 hour to render out 100 frames of HV's. I need faster HV's and i doubt hardware render would be of any help to most users.

Links to My tests.

Test 1

http://www.geocities.com/utica_2k/pouring_water_01.avi


Test 2

http://www.geocities.com/utica_2k/pouring_water_03.avi

KillMe
11-29-2003, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Too late, they already did. :)

you saying that jetstream will be intergrated in lw8 or you saying that the hired the guys who wrote it?

or even better both? =)

Julez4001
11-29-2003, 07:43 PM
Kool beans! indeed.
Are they polishing it up, integrated in the render panel or is it just the plugin.

Are they expanding the render panel?

Are they doing anything with Hypervoxels (speeding them up) or bringing back THE DOUBLER.

SplineGod
11-29-2003, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by KillMe
you saying that jetstream will be intergrated in lw8 or you saying that the hired the guys who wrote it?

or even better both? =)
Hired the guy(s) who wrote it. :)

ThreeDBFX
11-30-2003, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
Hired the guy(s) who wrote it. :)


Larry,

Then how come when I asked at the meeting if there were any inprovements to HV's I was told NO?

Does that mean that they didn't make this version, but will be in a future release, i.e. v.8.5?

SplineGod
11-30-2003, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by ThreeDBFX
Larry,

Then how come when I asked at the meeting if there were any inprovements to HV's I was told NO?

Does that mean that they didn't make this version, but will be in a future release, i.e. v.8.5?
No doesnt mean no forever. My take on when they said no was that it meant on the initial 8.0 release. I know that some of the developers they have now DO know, understand and have written volumetric based code. Im very sure there are improvements/updates to HVs/volumetrics coming. Not sure which release it will show up though. :)

Mwai Kasamale
11-30-2003, 06:00 AM
Great thread BTW

Anyway, I believe Jetsrtream is a Hardware particle render and is not an improvement of HV but a whole particle renderer in itself.

The only problemm I remember it having was scaling renders beyond D1 Widescreen. Anything above this would crash LW. Hope they fixed this.

Also, the object emission(instancing) was nice but only displayed geometry that did not recognize bitmap textures or procedurals, that would have been nice.

I also wished that it supported sprites. If it did, screw HV. Its old anyway and totally impractical in production these days. Custom coded volume renders blow HV out the sky. Houdini's Volume render rocks and I would have liked to see the kinds of speeds you see in mantra. NT PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS. I believe in the next release of XSI the babysteps of what looks like a killer volume particle renderer for Mental Ray will be introduced. Maya seems content with FluidFX and the volume renderer already in Maya, which inspite of the quality is faster than HV.

Also One thing I found particularly annoying about Jetstream(FX) was that you had to control the scaling of the particles with expressions. I thing this parametre needs to have access to LW's Gradients and PFX age. believe it did have access to PFX scaling functions but even they were hoaky at best.

Another thing. They need to make the sampling, AA and motionblur functions clearer. Not saying there was anything wrong with them but the workflow and user feedback was alittle jumbled.

Another thing. Particle clipping was a problem when the particles came too close the camera or when the particles reached their death. Like I stated above if the dissolve and density parametres had access to LW's gradients this problem would be pretty much solved.

Jetfx is/was LW's answer Maya's Hardware render, and IMHO is many times more powerful. With alittle care and alot of innovative implementation and integration, I think JetFX can even replace HV in all particle rendering, except Volume and Metaball renders. Speed is the Key, it was faster than anything I had ever seen and reeltime no matter the type of render.VERY IMPRESSIVE!!.

If its true that the smart guys who developed it have been hired by the good folks at NT then this is a good thing, but just becuase they are there and they intend to integrate it into LW does not mean these issues will get fixed in 8. I hope so though. NT needs a bunch "partechies" to tackle particle implimentation in LW. adding more access and control over the PFX systems "PER PARTICLE ATTRIBUTES:p " and such things

Anyway I've gon on too long
My 2 cents

Julez4001
01-16-2004, 08:34 PM
This is where i heard about jetstreamfx but Splinegod said they hired the guys ..not that it would be in
DRAT!

E_Moelzer
01-16-2004, 09:01 PM
Well there are pretty good ways for hardware- accellerated Volumerendering.
However in my personal experience you will only want to use it for (realtime- )previews and smaller effects., or things like smoke fire and rain, where you dont need to high texture- resolutions.
You still cant beat a software- renderer for things like our volumedic does (quality- wise that is), if you have a dataset (for laymen it is something like a 3d- texture) that has some 300MB.
CU
Elmar

RobertoOrtiz
01-16-2004, 09:34 PM
Personally I would have replaced the current hypervoxel engine with something like OGO_Taiki.

The results blow out of the water the current engine.
Check it out:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/%7Epq1a-ogs/taiki3.jpg
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/%7Epq1a-ogs/air1.jpg

>>Link<< (http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/%7Epq1a-ogs/taiki.html)

-R

Mwai Kasamale
01-16-2004, 09:42 PM
The results blow out of the water he current engine.

Maybe but the render hit is pretty big. If OGO had the ability to cache volumetric textures It would REALLY ROCK, but it doesn't. It would be cool if they replaced it though.

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