Character - My Head

[alexyork]

I forgot to mention - I am keeping an archive of my old WIP on my website - www.alexyork.co.uk - here you can see what I have done from the beginning to the latest update.

[alexyork]

Here is a wire of the lores mesh.

As you can see the general flow of the topology isn't that bad but still needs work.

I have circled one of the Ngon problem areas.

Any suggestions how to fix this and keep it quads?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alex.york/images/MFGHead-WIP17-WireNgon.jpg

[alexyork]

I have spoken with my friend who is a medical student studying to be a surgeon and he identified some problems with the overall form.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alex.york/images/MFGHead-WIP17-Errors.jpg

It is the blue (ngon/topology error) areas that I would like advice on how to fix.

[J.K.Makowka]

Have a look at the wiredepot over at
www.metagons.com

That will probably help you to sort out that topological errors.

[alexyork]

Thanks a lot J.K.Makowka - I'll check out the site.

[alexyork]

The URL www.metagons.com appears to be down.

[J.K.Makowka]

Works just fine on my PC...

[NetV00D00]

To be more critical of your work, I would have to see a better perspective shot of your model. Possibly even your reference material.

Also, you did not state weather this model was going to be a non life like character, or realistic, as that would greatly help me critique your work.

V00D00

[alexyork]

Ah it's working now. Think my bandwidth was maxed and causing a timeout. Thanks man I'll take a good look through this site.

[Corth]

well, there's a few things missing for good crits, more views and your ref pics. As I look at your head, it seems like your nostrils will end up looking weird and too thin. The side of the mouth looks as if it will have a hard edge and not look natural. Even on your low poly picture, it seems to me your using too many at this point. Use a low number of polys at first, then add more for your detail. Its a bad idea to start with as many polys as you want to end up with.

[alexyork]

Corth : thanks for the feedback.

I will post some more angles of the mesh this afternoon.
The crit about the mouth is fair - it's a little messy around the corners but it looks pretty good when you rotate it.
Again, I will post some more angles to show this.

I think the number of polys is just fine - only 600 so far.
I have been careful to add polys only where they are needed, but keeping the continuity going whilst avoiding tris often means whole rings of polys which ups the complexity.

Considering this is my 1st ever head I think it's going ok, though?

I am working on fixing the form errors outlined by my friend and you guys (mouth, eye, nose, cheek and ngons).

[alexyork]

As requested here are my reference images (me!) with the wires comped on top.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alex.york/images/MFGHead-WIP17-MOP-Front.jpg

In this image you can clearly see some form problems at the chin/neck/jowel/eyelid/cheek areas. But otherwise it's pretty good I hope. I am deliberately modelling the scalp slightly smaller than it should be so I can add hair later.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alex.york/images/MFGHead-WIP17-MOP-Side.jpg

In this one you can see it pretty much lines up perfectly except for the lips. This is because the reference photos were taken at an angle and no amount of distortion Photoshop work could sort it out, so they don't line up perfectly. But this won't be a problem, as I can adjust the UV texture map to compensate later.

I left a generally large gap around the ear to model it later and the same for the back of the neck.

Hope these help!

[alexyork]

Thanks for the few responses so far. Have helped.

I gues this thread is dead then.

All my WIP threads die within 2 posts.

Think I'll just get back to it and submit the finished piece to the gallery when it's done.

[NetV00D00]

Man, you’re an ugly bastard. :) Just kidding Mother. Looks like you are almost there... the basic form seems to be fitting the shape of your reference image.

Now comes the hard part for all first time modelers, tweaking out the poly mesh. Take time, and have patience, as this is what separates the men from the boys (No offense to the ladies).

It may be helpful to project your image on to the basic model now. It will allow you to easily see the areas that just don't seem right.

I do not believe you need any more geometry to tweak this one out. Stay strong and finish it out.

V00D00

[alexyork]

Cheers bro, thanks for the advice and encouragement.

You're right about getting the maps onto the mesh to see it's all working.

I bet as soon as I do that it all goes to hell and then when I mirror it it'll go some place else, but I can't submit half a head!

I have a stack of other projects to be doing, but I WILL post some updated WIP grabs soon, probably in the next couple weeks.

So I don't mind if this thread dies for now... but expect a monumental resurrection shortly!

[foxco]

first off, v nice for first attempt. the overall model is good but i think u have a bit to much geometry and to get a really smooth natural look creat alot of edge loops(search topology in CG talk forums) you will find alot of reference to what im talking about :)

but ya it look s really good

Shad Fox

[alexyork]

Thanks for the comments cleefox.

This edgeloop business is one im looking into. I wont have time to learn it or implement it for this project but im sure I will in the future.

I will be updating new versions of this head within the next 7 days and until January 6th when it will be finished, textured and posed along with the full body, lowres and hires.

[foxco]

hey no problem. if you are looking for topology ref and edge loop ref just ask, i have man many ref images for wireframe and some of my own that i could show you

Shad FoX

[alexyork]

Thanks man that'd be really useful!

Email me or just drop a link or something here.

Cheers

[alexyork]

Hey! I'm officially picking this project up again, now that some of my other modules have been laid to rest finally.

I have already made good progress on the ear and totally cleaned up the mesh itself - very few ngons and tris in there now.

Unfortunately my ISP's FTP is down and no idea how long for... so I can't post any of my WIP images.

As soon as it's up ull post a few shots of where I'm up to.

1) Mesh is pretty clean now
2) Ear done
3) Overall form a lot better

Next step is to weld the two halves together and start texturing (a nightmare in the waiting I bet).

Anyway I'll have some shots up very soon!

[alexyork]

I'm back!

And, as promised - here are the latest versions of my head model!

Roughly two weeks left of this project.

http://www.characteranimation.co.uk/pics/Shot-27.jpg

This one is a screengrab of the head mesh. The topology is a little odd in terms of structure, but it's pretty damn clean (almost no tris or ngons). If anything looks strange, it's because my head is strange ;]

http://www.characteranimation.co.uk/pics/Shot-29.jpg

This one is the latest render of the head, with texturing finished and a basic skin shader/light setup (GI and a little SSS, medium quality sampling/AA).

The beard or hair isn't done yet, hence my looking a little bald! Again, if something looks strange in terms of form and shape it's because my head is an odd shape.

I have kept 100% to my photo reference of myself and shown this WIP to several people who all think it looks just like me.

I'd love some opinions on skin shaders, GI settings and SSS in relation to photorealistic head rendering, if anyone would be so kind.

I would also like some advice on how to create a suitable bump and specular map for this head, since it's only a diffuse map at the moment.

Thanks for looking!

Next steps:

1) Model the body (basic)
2) Texture the body
3) Render the entire thing
4) Make a low-poly version of the whole lot

Remember please - this is my first ever head model/texture/render, so go easy please - but hit me with as much advice as you want.

PS. A big thanks to John Lee for renting me some webspace while my ISP gets its thumb out of its a**.

[Razorwolf]

texturing finished Ehm?

[alexyork]

What's the problem?

I assume you mean to say "that doesn't look finished".

I'm on a very tight deadline, this is the first ever head I have modelled and textured - so at this stage I can say it's as good as I am going to get it considering.

I am very pleased with my progress, considering I started with 0 experience of topology, organic modelling, texture mapping and skin shaders.

Now for some constructive crit and advice please.

[erikN]

the lower lip looks to small to me compared to the upper lip..

or is the angel confusing me?

and congrats on such nice work when it's your first organic project

I wish you good luck :)

[mv]

hello
not bad for a first attempt.

Suggestions :

for your first heads, try working on lower poly models. Here, there's too much density and it becomes hard to control; try to find the overall volumes instead of putting detail first... especially if there's not much detail.

Smoothed wires are not very interresting to behold.. show lowpoly cage instead.

be aware that photos are perspective views. If you use them as background orthographic reference, it will lead to proportion errors . Especially for the front view.

I want to see some persps!

Keep it up!

[alexyork]

Hey guys.

Thanks for the kind comments! I must be on the right track! It's been one HELL of a learning experience.

erikN: about the lower lip... that's my mouth ;] it looks odd but that's the way my mouth is.

m@.: the low poly model is very low poly - around 800polys or something like that. In some areas (the forehead) there are actually way too few polys.. If anything I need more! But you are indeed right. I remodelled the entire thing as a result of this.

I'll get some low-poly perspective views up here tomorrow for you to check out. Although it's the final render that I'm worried about now not the modelling side.

About the ortho/persp reference. Try telling that to my module leader who took these damn shoddy photos!!! My head was at an angle in the side photo lol. Did my best to get it right. And spent a good 5 odd hours talking with my family making sure it looks just like me. Believe me, it DOES look just like me - just bald ;]

Any texturing/rendering ideas guys?

Thanks a lot and keep em coming.

[Razorwolf]

Well, yeah, it wasn't really constructive criticism but that texture is nowhere near finished. I just wanted to hint you to work a bit further on it.

[alexyork]

Yeh, ok so it could be better - but it's up to me to decide if it's finished or not - which it is (the diffuse map anyway). I will work on a spec and bump map if I get time... Like i said in my post earlier.

There comes a point you have to stop. This is the point. I have to model a body and a whole low-poly version of this by the 4th Jan - all textured and rendered!

I really would like some suggestions on how to make a bump and spec map for this head - how is it done? And some suggestions for short shaved hair too would be great.

Cheers

[andyspence]

I've posted this msg on 3DFoundation as well:
Looking good mate!!

Hard to crit stuff whens its not in its final stages, but:
I'd say the eyes look a bit flat which makes them look sunk back into your face. Looking at your side photo on CGt, you can see your eye comes round the side of your head more. The nose needs to be less pointy and I'd definitely say you've given yourself a bit of a turkey neck which your photo doesn't have!!! :-)(althought that could be lack of definition in the form of the neck).

Well on your way tho mate! Topology is looking good. I'd have to see some angle shots and your angle mug shot to say anymore. i suspect with all the hair on it will look very much like you.

-Andy

[Razorwolf]

Well yeah it wouldn't be good for your workflow so just do whatever you like. I'm not pushing you :).

I don't have much experience I just crit on what I see. I'm more skilled in game-art so I don't know much about bumps.

[alexyork]

Cheers anyway ;]

I have done some searching and I'm still having trouble working out how to make a decent bump and spec map.

Any ideas anyone?

Currently modelling the hands and feet for the body. I'm starting to hate MAX again now...

[alexyork]

Btw - Quadro - replied to your message in T3DF mate. Thanks a lot for the suggestions ;]

[alexyork]

Hey everyone.

Here's a quick low-res, low-quality render of the head so far - with hair! Shag Fur and some major photoshop post work....

Looking ok, except now the moustash looks a bit dodgy....

Considering removing the moustash from the texmap and using shag fur for it as well.

Bit overbright this render, but coming along ok I hope.

[alexyork]

Hey everyone.

Here's a quick low-res, low-quality render of the head so far - with hair! Shag Fur and some major photoshop post work....

Looking ok, except now the moustash looks a bit dodgy....

Considering removing the moustash from the texmap and using shag fur for it as well.

Bit overbright this render, but coming along ok I hope.

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Shot-30.jpg

[alexyork]

I've just Shag-Furred the moustash... looking ok. Will post a render tonight.

[alexyork]

Here's a quick test of the head with Shag Fur/Photoshop moustash... looks much much better I think. Not decided on an overall rendering style yet, so the overbright thing isn't a problem.

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Shot-31.jpg

[alexyork]

Any c&c please?

PS. I know the contrast is dodgy in this render (messed it up in Photoshop lol) but it's the moustash I'm testing in this last one.

[andyspence]

Yeah, the tache definitely works better, consistancey wise. :-D
If you not going to do any more modelling on it, then there's no point in my criting it any more than that. Get stuck into the body mate! I've 'finished' the hi-res head (apart from the hair) so I'm now getting bogged down on the hands and feet... ;-)

Happy new year!

-Q.

[andyspence]

oh- just noticed: Increse the glossiness on the eyeballs

-Q

[alexyork]

Hey Quadro m8.

Thanks a lot for the comments. You're right about the eyes... I just can't work out how to get HDRI to work with them to get those glossy spec hlights. I'll work it out eventually... I hope ;]

Yup - the body is coming along nicely - will post some more WIP shots today and onward now xmas is over and done with.

Cheers! And Happy xmas and a happy new year.

[alexyork]

Hey everyone - another quick render before I start posting images of the whole body...

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Shot-32.jpg

This is just a quickie to test the hair and render style. Moustash still needs some work (Shag Fur is being a pain at the moment) and I still havn't worked out how to get the eyes to gloss properly.

[andyspence]

For the gloss - for starters I'd make sure you have the lens shape embossed from the sphere of the eyeball. the light will catch it hopefully.

Seen ur 'work experience' post! Bold move. :-) I think the problem is, they don't want to give you back after a year, so to speak. Thats why I'm not bothering with it. You could of course stay with them and quit uni, but when you lose that job (no job is permanant in this industry), you won't be earning as much as the next job with out a degree. Interesting thing to note, is that our VIS/Course leader advised against the placement/sandwich year, for the same reason.

Just looked at ur site as well. Looks very professional. :-D I think you need some drawing on there tho. Employers will want to see knowledge of anatomy from observation, etc... The site design is wicked.

-Q.

[andyspence]

loverly jubbly!
render a different angle!

-Q.

[alexyork]

This is a very quick, rough-n-ready render of the top half of the body so far (around 30mins work). The texturing isn't finished, nor is the modelling (especially on the torso). But it's a sign of things to come!

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Shot-33.jpg

PS. I have gone for a sort of jester/clown type character here... just messing about with character styles now.

[andyspence]

Heah heah! You look like a Neo Nazi in a clown outfit!!!
Body basics all look fine.

-Q.

[alexyork]

Hey Quad ;]

1st off, thanks a lot for the comments, again. I'm working on the eyes as I write this. The body is coming along ok as well... should finish the whole hi-res by tomorrow evening hopefully.

About the placement: you are right in that studios don't want to be limited in their employability by giving them a deadline/finishing date. This is true. But if there is one thing I have picked up over the last year and a half, it's that you are EMINENTLY more employable with experience. This means that if I can work next year and then finish my degree the year after, I will be a LOT more employable than if I had not.

IF someone will employ me for next year then I will, of course, take it, as I realise that no amount of skills or networkability will land you a job unless you have experience. I have had only ONE offer of work for next year. And guess what.... it was unpaid. The industry is in a mess over here.

So, any takers?!

Oh, and thanks a lot for the kind comments about my site - sketches will be going up as well as all the work I have been doing over the last month and a bit as soon as I get back to uni. (4th jan).

Neo-Nazi clown?! Yer, kinda hehe.

More to come!

[iainbanks]

hey there mothermachine.

Those renders are coming along really well, what kind of character is your model going to be based on?

Are you putting a body underneath the clothes, becasue i've done this and i'm beginning to wonder why....or have you started the skin (.eg. the hands) from where the clothes stop?

At this point i'm really fed up with creating the hair on my model, just looks terrible buts yours looks really good. The only criticsim i would have about your model is the lack of wrinkles etc on the skin but other than than its top notch.

PS. it's weird how i posted some of my work here a while ago and got not one reply, any way enough moaning from me...back to work

[alexyork]

Hey Elementol, m8. Thanks for the comments.

My character will be based on some sort of jester/clown/actor hybrid. I would love to go to town with the clothing, but it would take a lot away from the head, which is the focal point of the project.

Wrinkles... you may be right there. But I don't really have any wrinkles - any kind of subtle skin envelopes are dealt with in the model or the texture.

Clothing: I just modelled a basic body and pulled out a few edges to make an overlap for the sleeves to make it look like clothing over skin, then textured both elements (using sub-obj materials) and some careful shader work to get it to look right. Nothing as complicated as you are making out! In other words... there is only ONE mesh for the body.

Hair: I had to do some post work in Photoshop to blend the hair into the skin. The edge was VERY sharp rendered straight out of MAX, so post was necessary. Don't be afraid to use post.

I'd like to see some of your work. Post it here m8.

Cheers and expect some more WIP today.

[iainbanks]

contents moved to another thread.

[alexyork]

Nice work man. But I didnt mean put your work up on this thread ;] now everyone will think these are my images.

Anyway looking good. The hand is awesome.

[iainbanks]

there we go all fixed. Thanks

[alexyork]

Cheers man ;] Sorry about that, you know how it is. Anyway it's looking very good indeed. Keep it up.

[alexyork]

Hey everyone - update:

I have been working on the body today and here are the results of around 5 hours work (with no reference images). Turning out to be a sort of medival jester/protector type character now.

Render quality is low, but materials are coming along ok.

I'm probably going to add some armour (shield on back, sword etc) and touch up the hands, which look dodgy at the moment.

Cheers!

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Shot-34.jpg

[alexyork]

Hey! This is a BIG update:

1) The Hi-Res figure is complete (as good as I can get it within my timeframe, deadline in 5 days)

2) The Lo-Res figure is complete (all welded, <2000 polygons)

3) Finished a few low-quality renders for WIP purposes (below)


Still left to do:

1) Write the report
2) Render lots more angles at hi-res/high-quality

These are pretty much finished now, but I'm keeping them in this thread for consistency.

Although crit is welcome, I have done all I can with this project now.

Expect lots of renders in the Finished 3D forum soon!

Meanwhile, here are some lo-res medium-quality renders for you to have a look at.

Cheers and keep a lookout in the Finished 3D forum for the final final final renders ;] Next couple of days!


Images follow in the next posts...

[alexyork]

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Head-HiRes-Angle01.jpg

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Head-HiRes-Clay01.jpg

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Head-HiRes-Wire01.jpg

[alexyork]

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Head-HiRes-Clay02.jpg

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Body-HiRes-Angle01.jpg

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Body-HiRes-Clay01.jpg



That's it for now!

Cheers!

[alexyork]

Afternoon all and a happy 2004!

Is my work crap or are you all just too hungover to post ;]

[alexyork]

Here's a quick render of the hi and low-poly meshes side by side. The low-poly model is NOT topologically correct/clean. But it is <2000 polys.

http://mithras.org.uk/WIP/Scene-HiRes-Angle01.jpg

[alexyork]

Hello?! Anyone still awake after last night's antics?

I'm sure someone wouldn't mind dropping some encouragement or comments ;]

[alexyork]

What's going on. I just posted like 10 renders of the finished character and no replies?

Come on, someone must have something to say about my work.

If there is no reply by tonight then I'll just let the thread die and start up a new one in the Finished 3D forum instead.

[andyspence]

Hey MM. Happy New Year!

OK. C&C:
The low poly characters needs a visable joint in the arms.
The hi-poly, needs some testosterone!!! ie- muscles in the arms/legs (especially fore-arms and thighs) and perhaps a more respectable package.

I'm a bit beind myself. Still modelling the hi-poly body. Then I have to do the low poly completely. But that should take more than an evening hopefully.

Later mate!
-Q.

[dominicqwek]

hey there. its a very promising model, u have to work on it some more. and more tones to the topology...more definitions in the head, and much more for the body. play around with the settings for shaghair(are u using that?) anyway, if u are. tweak the length randomness as well as other settings like clumpiness, turns..etc etc... it looks way too static for now.

Keep it up m8!

[alexyork]

That's more like it! Thanks for the comments guys.

You're both dead right about the body... just not toned enough.

I wish I had more time to work on it but I just don't. Too many other projects to be working on in the next few days.

If I had another week I would sort the body out completely.

I think I can say that this project is as good as I can get it for now.

I will probably work on it some more after the deadline.

That's the way the cookie crumbles ;/

Anyway cheers to everyone for their help and support. And good luck Quadro!

Just churning out some hi-res high-quality final renders for print now.

[andyspence]

I'm gonna need it!
Your doing radiosity renders with Brazil aren't you? Wish I had a decent renderer to do my model justice.

:-D

-Q.

[alexyork]

I'm using Global Illumination in Brazil, yes.

But you can get GI to work (slower) using MAX's own Scanline renderer. Just drop a skylight into the scene (from Create > Lights) and then go to Render > Advanced Lighting. Check Lightracer and make sure the multiplier is around 1-1.5. Bingo. GI ;]

MAX's scanline GI is so very very slow and pretty much crap though, compaired to Brazil, FR and VRay.

No worries if quality over speed is your priority, as the results can be great with tweaking. Read the manuals for more info on Lighttracer.

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