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View Full Version : Anyone know of any 21-24" LCD's with <25ms response time?


Emmortal1
11-25-2003, 12:37 PM
Looking to put an LCD on my secondary workstation and haven't been able to find much of anything in the 21-24" range with a sub 25ms reponse time (meaning in the 10-15ms time range). Anyone know of any off the top of their head?

Emmortal

Thalaxis
11-25-2003, 04:34 PM
Here's one:

Samsung 213T (http://shop.monitorsdirect.com/product.asp?sku=2328701)

And another:

ViewSonic VP211B (http://shop.monitorsdirect.com/product.asp?sku=2370974)

I don't have any experience with this vendor, though... I've just
been thinking about an LCD monitor to replace one of my aging
CRT's, and found this site via PriceWatch.

I hope that helps :)

Emmortal1
11-25-2003, 11:18 PM
Ya I did see both of those monitors, I guess I should have made my post a bit clearer. What I meant as far as sub 25ms times were response times of 15-20ms. I appologize for not being more specific, thanks for the reply!

Emmortal

Thalaxis
11-26-2003, 05:13 PM
Ah... sorry, but at the 19" + sizes, 25 ms is the best I've seen so
far, at least in production. :/

Emmortal1
11-26-2003, 09:54 PM
That's what I figured since my two weeks of searching haven't pulled any results heh. I was looking at the Samsung 243t which is supposed to have sub 25ms response time (24") but for some reason it's about 2 months past it's release date, so no vendors have recieved it yet and no ETA.

Oh well, guess I'll figure something out.

Emmortal

Sieb
11-27-2003, 12:16 AM
Why do you need such a low response time? At 25ms on a 21.3" LCD, I have yet to encounter an issue because of it.. And compared to popular reviews, there are only a few extreme cases where you notice..

If your going to die without one....
Dell 2001FP (only avaliable with Dell XPS machines right now)
http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1918&p=1

Emmortal1
11-27-2003, 01:49 AM
I have a tendancy to buy things that are above and beyond what normal people need, that's really the only justifiable answer I could give ya heh. I just think of it as that if I'm going to be making an investment of that magnitude, then why not buy the best? It would be like going to the Porsche dealership and coming home with a Boxter.

Emmortal

sevenfingers
12-01-2003, 10:15 AM
this is 20.1"... but it sports the same res as a 21"

.formac 20.1" (http://www.formac.com/p_bin/?cid=solutions_displays_gallery2010_01)

15 ms

GregHess
12-01-2003, 12:06 PM
Emmortal1,

If your really concerned about having a piece of technology which lasts a significant amount of time...then wait.

Wait as long as you possibly can.

Wait until the want becomes the need.

Remember that lots of industry changing display technologies are on the horizon. Some a decade away, some a few years, some just a few months.

The longer you can wait, the better position you'll be in to make a great buying decision.

Why settle for a 911 turbo...When you could have gotten a GT2 for the same price? :)

dmeyer
12-01-2003, 02:08 PM
There is a saying at work...be on the leading edge, not the bleeding edge.

Check out the 213T. It's quite nice. :)

trex4d
12-01-2003, 02:36 PM
Warning!!
Formac from the spec:

15ms average (10ms rise, 25 ms fall)??=35ms...
http://www.formac.com/p_bin/?cid=solutions_displays_gallery2010_techspecs&PHPSESSID=0901bec1ed135be5606223e677333307

trex4d
12-01-2003, 02:39 PM
Maybe this!:
NEC 2080 UX+
http://www.prad.de/guide/screen870.html

popnGEAR
12-01-2003, 07:02 PM
i find that there is a huge difference between 25ms and <20ms. I test drove a 25ms 19" samsung for a couple days and the blurring was far too much for me too bear. rotating/panning too fast in viewports wouuld caus these black blurs everywhere. i opted for a pair of 17" 16ms lcds instead and haven't looked back.

Novakog
12-03-2003, 10:48 PM
Were you using DVI inputs/output on the Samsung, cause they're known to blur and ghost a lot on Analog.

raz-0
12-04-2003, 05:36 PM
yes, the dell 2001FP is 21" genuine 24-bit, not 18-bit and dithered, and has a 16ms response time. You should be able to order it soon for $1099. If you are government or an educational user you can order it already for $999.

That should cover the demands. Anandtech has a review if you are itnerested.

Emmortal1
12-05-2003, 02:14 AM
Greg: I fully agree with that, but as you know with Technology, the latest and greatest in a blink of an eye turns into yesterdays old news. I'm not trying to keep up with technology, that would be a very foolish thing to do obviously, I just want a nice set of monitors for my secondary system. There's always newer technology right around the corner, especially the past several years have shown that. Anyway, thanks for the information guys, I appreciate it.

Emmortal

GregHess
12-05-2003, 12:09 PM
http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1924

This is why I'm talking "wait".

Bunch of upcoming displays with much lower response times.

Not to mention OLED's will start appearing soon :).

Thalaxis
12-05-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1924

This is why I'm talking "wait".

Bunch of upcoming displays with much lower response times.


Sweet... I've been thinking about a panel monitor myself for some
time now, especially since one of my CRTs is starting to show its
age (it's starting to lose image stability, but fortunately it is at
present a transient problem).


Not to mention OLED's will start appearing soon.

Not soon enough ;)

Thanks for the link!

Sieb
12-05-2003, 05:14 PM
Mmm.. Good.. I am still happy with my 213T.. Next up? Dual 21.3".. moohahaha..:D

dmeyer
12-05-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Sieb
Mmm.. Good.. I am still happy with my 213T.. Next up? Dual 21.3".. moohahaha..:D

dual 213T would be nice. I have yet to test the 213T to see if it's suitable for my relatively paltry (but present) gaming needs. If so the CRT is getting replaced for maximum 213T madness

Sieb
12-06-2003, 04:22 PM
You wont get a better deal than this for a while...

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=320-1578&c=us&l=en&cs=04&category_id=4009&page=external

Hellbring
12-06-2003, 04:59 PM
I bought a 213t few weeks ago, other then some ghosting when moving things aroudn while modeling it works great. I bought this to replace dual 19" Phillips CRT's

raz-0
12-07-2003, 08:10 AM
All I have to say is holy crap!!!!

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=320-1578&c=us&l=en&cs=04&category_id=4009&page=external

YEs, the new 2001FP, 16ms 20 inch LCD that is really 24 bit. $749.

I'm debating buing this myself. The only thing not 100% great about this monitor is the chipset that does the resolution autoadjust. Having seen my friend's sony that I believe has the same one, it makes some very questionable and down right stupid judgements about the auto adjusting.

CgFX
12-07-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by raz-0
The only thing not 100% great about this monitor is the chipset that does the resolution autoadjust. Having seen my friend's sony that I believe has the same one, it makes some very questionable and down right stupid judgements about the auto adjusting.

Uh... Why on earth would you buy a great, $800 DFP and not run it digitally???

raz-0
12-07-2003, 10:23 PM
Thing is, I don't think it has anything to do with digitally or not. the auot-calibration thing runs when you switch resolutions, and just has a tendency to make some really messed up adjustments.

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1918

we'll see though, I ordered one and will gladly offer my impressions on it when I get it.

Sieb
12-08-2003, 12:10 AM
Sweet.. Personally I would rather get a second 213T, but.. One is enough, I bought an AIW9800 for a reason (no secondary DVI). A friend of mine bought two of the Dells so I'm waiting to check his out for personal impressions.. Kind of odd though, $800 for a 20" when my 21.3 was $1200 a month ago... makes one think... Especially with the statement about the chipset. My Envision 1700e's had issues with auto adjusting (as in not doing it right..)..

raz-0
12-08-2003, 01:19 AM
well, this is the first of the next generation of LCD panels greg was talking about. One of the features is decreased price. Heck, I'm sure within 6 months, this won't even look like a deal anymore unless the increased populatrity of LCD TVs cuts into the supply a bit.

Emmortal1
12-08-2003, 01:33 AM
Hmm, well it looks like it's down to a decision for me at least. Buy two of the Dells or go with two of the NEC LCD2080UX+'s. I could get two of the Dells for the price of 1 of the NEC's, but I'm really wondering why it dropped in price so dramatically just over the past 2 weeks. Anandtech gave it a good review, but it still leaves me wondering what the deal is.

Emmortal

GregHess
12-08-2003, 01:03 PM
The best time to buy LCD's will be when OLED's hit the market in storm.

OLED's are not only significantly thinner then LCD's, but promise to remove alot of the disadvantages inherent in a Active Matrix.

Of course they currently have a few problems, but thats as with all new technologies.

http://www.digitalware.ru/staticfiles/%7B20C05FCD-1C9C-4411-B3BE-84830EDF685B%7D/sanyo-oled.jpg

Here's some looks at displays.

http://www.theclockmag.com/june/ :thumbsup:

Either way, LCD's will continue to plummet in price...heck their cheaper then CRT's were just a few years ago.

Btw anyone see the annoucement that Sony is going to stop producing new trinitron CRT's next year?

Sieb
12-08-2003, 06:28 PM
Sweeeet.. Good to see ya still around Greg! :wavey:

GregHess
12-08-2003, 06:37 PM
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/xspeed.jpg

Ya, I'm lurkin. Hard to answer questions when your flying around on a track :).

Emmortal1
12-08-2003, 11:20 PM
That pic makes me reminiscent of running around on Sebring with my 93 RX7 R1 :( Damn I loved that car.

Emmortal

Sieb
12-09-2003, 01:30 AM
Ill stick to my '01 Sebring Coupe.. :drool:

CgFX
12-09-2003, 03:01 AM
Greg,

Autocrossing is cool when you can't get to a real track on a given weekend but why use the wife's car???

dmeyer
12-09-2003, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by CgFX
Greg,

Autocrossing is cool when you can't get to a real track on a given weekend but why use the wife's car???

lol.

I'm guessing you took part in this, Greg?

http://www.mazdarevitup.com/

GregHess
12-09-2003, 03:57 AM
That "wifes" car won 1st place in F stock last weekend :).

Never underestimate a mazda :). Poor v8 mustangs and camaro's...bested by a 4 door family sedan.

Actually i missed rev it up...which is why I got into autocrossing.

Car's not fast enough for the track yet...though I do plan on going to sumitt point next year sometime...but maybe in someone elses car :).

Track racing puts a "bit" more wear on a car then a mere parking lot racing :).

Sieb
12-09-2003, 04:00 AM
Dude, now you need some ground effects, lowering kit, cool air intake, a bit of NOS, intercooler, Fart can, and of course, neons and decals.. Cause a thousand lbs of junk makes you go fasta!

Oh, and dont forget the truck sized wing on the trunk!

Kion
12-09-2003, 08:26 AM
The best time to buy LCD's will be when OLED's hit the market in storm.


Thats true. I think OLED will be here sooner than we think I was reading this rumor that apple was going to use it in the next ipod early 2004, and possibly in moniters following later. And Kodak was making to deals to use it in cell phones and on their digital cameras

Kion
12-09-2003, 08:54 AM
heres some stuff about OLED

http://www.zdnet.com.au/reviews/coolgear/av/story/0,2000023510,20273393,00.htm

GregHess
12-09-2003, 02:08 PM
Sieb,

Nah :).

I will be doing intake/headers/catback. Which puts the WHP around 220, which is respectable for a FWD sedan.

Any more then that and I'll get wheel spin, LSD or not.

Ya OLED's rule...and don't forget about the HDRI displays :).

CgFX
12-09-2003, 06:07 PM
e-gads. Your wife's car is FWD? Ugh. No thanks. :-)
Please, tell me it isn't an automatic.

GregHess
12-09-2003, 09:22 PM
Its my car not a wify's.

Ya its WWD...oh well :(.

I'm looking to get a nice 2nd gen rx7 just to futz around in...working with a guy right now to get one for free.

CgFX
12-09-2003, 10:03 PM
Greg,

Just joking with you. I'll race anything and more power to you for doing the same.

GregHess
12-09-2003, 11:18 PM
The nice thing about FWD, is it immediately shows you how farking nice it is to have RWD...or even AWD with a RWD bias.

Its also fun to see all the similarities between the mechanical/computer crossbreeds that have become today's automobiles :).

Novakog
12-10-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
Ya OLED's rule...and don't forget about the HDRI displays :).

Wouldn't that be kind, umm, bright? I mean, what would happen if you accidentally opened a picture of the sun?

GregHess
12-11-2003, 02:05 PM
Well they had them at siggraph 2003. :)

Remember HDRI isn't necessarily bright, its just displaying more level of brightness/contrast/color then anything else on the market.

Aka it closely approximates actual human vision.

Novakog
12-12-2003, 12:35 AM
Ya, that's what I meant. I mean, if you look at the sun in real life (obviously not recommended!), it's way too bright. So if you looked at it on an HDRI display, it would be way too bright.

I didn't mean that everything would be too bright, I meant the brightest it could display would be. Sorry for the bad wording.

raz-0
12-16-2003, 01:30 AM
weel, my dell 2001FP arrived. all I have to say is DAMN! They really are shooting straight with their numbers on response time brightness and contrast ratio. Via DVI this thing rocks. I had a nice 21" sun (sony) crt, this thing blows it away. I can actually see all sorts of details I couldn't before (which is almost bad as I can now see the jpeg artifacts in my wallpaper :P ). And best of all ZERO dead pixels.

For $750 it most definitely is the one to beat at the moment.

mmm cleartype finally is useful... mmmm.

gigantor
12-16-2003, 06:32 PM
Raz , I'm also about to purchase the Dell, due to a CRT finaly dieing on me.

Couple questions tho...

1) Have you experienced any problems with the resolution autoadjust, going from one program to another?

2) have you experienced any ghosting in 3D modeling apps like maya?

3) anything you do not like about the LCD?

thanks in advance

dmeyer
12-16-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by GregHess
The nice thing about FWD, is it immediately shows you how farking nice it is to have RWD...or even AWD with a RWD bias.

Its also fun to see all the similarities between the mechanical/computer crossbreeds that have become today's automobiles :).

The new G35X has finally gotten AWD right....RWD under normal circumstances with a sort of FWD-assist when necessary.

:buttrock:

raz-0
12-17-2003, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by gigantor
Raz , I'm also about to purchase the Dell, due to a CRT finaly dieing on me.

Couple questions tho...

1) Have you experienced any problems with the resolution autoadjust, going from one program to another?

2) have you experienced any ghosting in 3D modeling apps like maya?

3) anything you do not like about the LCD?

thanks in advance

1) well I'm running in DVI mode, in which case there is no autoadjusting, it jsut does things right. I played with analog some to get an opinion about it, and that opinion is use DVI if you can. In resolution switches under analog, it get's the wrong every time. However, if you manually activate autoadjust after it has done it wrong, it seems to do a pretty good job at getting it right the second time. Besides DVI just looks better.

2) Well, I use 3d studio max. So I have no idea if you are asking something special about maya that wouldn't translate. I also use medium gray backgrounds most of the time. In the modeling app, I really can't say I notice much difference from a CRT other than the improved sharpness does wonders for wireframes. If I scrub through a 100 frame animation in the viewports as fast as I can, I probably get 6 afterimages rather than 5, but anything realistic actually seems better on the LCD than the CRT. as far as ghosting, it's REAL close to the response time of a CRT, and has the added benefit that you don't get bloom/trail when you pass something light over a black background. (i.e. set your desktop background to black, and move your mouse ina circle REAL fast, you probably get one or two more cursor images than with teh crt, but you get no visible ghost trail like you would get from the phosphors on a crt. Hope that explains it.

3) biggest down side is the analog performance, it's pushing the analog to digital converter to its limit and you can tell and the crack addled auto-adjust is improved, but still takes human intervention to deal with. If you don't like the tweaks autoadjust comes up with, you are not going to be the happiest camper with resultion switching. The lcd mesh is so fine on it that tweaking phase and whatnot is much more tedious than with a 17 or 18 inch 1280x1024 screen. Biggest non-analog issue is that the nice small pizels almost vanish on a solid background, but you can still pick them out against certain images. Most notably so far painted/drawn sunset-like clouds. Which gives you this bizarre feeling that an image that isn't suffering pixelization sort of is. This seems to be getting less noticable the more I use it.

If you read the anandtech review, I'd have to say the production unit is better than the review makes out the sample unit to be.

Seriously, my biggest gripe about it is that the increased detail it shows over my 21" sony CRT has made me dislike some formerly beloved desktop wallpapers because I can pick out more compression artifacts and they detract from the artwork now, which bugs me.

Emmortal1
12-17-2003, 12:54 AM
Where did you pick this up for 750$? Thanks,

Emmortal

raz-0
12-17-2003, 03:06 AM
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?sku=320-1578&c=us&l=en&cs=04&category_id=4009&page=external

dell small business. They accept sole proprietorships as small business. When ordering, just put your last name in for the business name on the form.

Oh yeah the other main downside.. with about 75lbs less monitor, it is now blatantly apparant how wobbly my computer table is when I type. ;)

gigantor
12-17-2003, 03:35 AM
Haha, thanks raz. I'm sold on this

Great review.

Novakog
12-17-2003, 03:42 AM
Ya man, I'm sold on this

trex4d
12-17-2003, 09:44 AM
Thank You raz-0!
My 2001FP coming too!;):thumbsup:

raz-0
12-17-2003, 11:32 PM
Ok, since I got a number of questions, and after readong some flame wars and honest complaints around the web, I decided to whip up a more in depth review and post it here.

it's kind of long, but covers pretty much everything I have been asked in more detail and covers some extra things that you might want to be warned about such as feature tradeoffs that you might not be aware of.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110425

catnip
12-18-2003, 02:24 AM
I just received my Dell 2001FP today, and the picture quality is great! (I'm running it on DVI). I haven't noticed the anomaly that was mentioned in the Anandtech review (heavy black outlines around gray pixels). No ghosting at all. None. Zero. Nada.

I also tried it out in Lightwave, and I was able to rotate the viewports with no ghosting. The wireframes were a little broken up, but that was true on my CRT, too.

The documentation isn't that great, though. You just get a CD with the user guide on it and a quick start poster. The poster doesn't tell how to install the INF file for the monitor. I finally figured out how to do that by using the Win XP monitor troubleshooter.

You have to go to the Device Manager, choose "Plug and Play Monitor, which is what it showed up as, and then click Properties > Drivers > Update Driver and point it to the CD. If I weren't a geek, I would have had a lot more trouble!

Also, the 2001FP is heavier than I expected. That's a good thing for stability, but not so great for a weak girly-girl like me!

That aside, I'd definitely recommend this monitor. Now, I'm just wating for my 5-year-old Dell CRT to die so I can get another LCD. Die, CRT, Die!!!!

catnip
12-20-2003, 03:57 AM
Well, after looking at posts at Dell's forums, apparently my monitor does have some of the problems mentioned by Anandtech - in particular, the backlight is brighter near the top right of center, and also in the corners.

However, this is only noticeable on a totally black screen.

There was also one pixel stuck on red near the center of the screen. Again, this was only noticeable on a blue or black screen, and I can't really see it in regular use.

I also noticed a shimmery quality when looking at white areas on the screen. This may be caused by the gridlines between pixels. OTOH, other LCDs I've seen seem to be a bit shimmery as well.

I didn't really notice these things at first until I read the Dell forums. Still, I think I'm going to keep this monitor.

I just thought I should add this so as not to mislead anyone.

Emmortal1
12-23-2003, 06:29 PM
Well I created a small business account and no discount shows up, but they did knock off 19$ for shipping...bleh.

Emmortal

Emmortal1
12-24-2003, 01:31 AM
Apparently the 750$ price was a limited offer, Dell was offering a cupon for small business on the monitor, which is back to it's original price of 999$. Crappy because I was about to buy 2 of them for my other workstation.

Emmortal

raz-0
12-24-2003, 04:38 AM
check back like every 2 weeks. Dell runs small business sales and LCD sales often.

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