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UniqueCharacter
03-25-2012, 11:31 PM
Hello, I posted a thread in matte painting and got some good feedback from it (link) (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=196&t=1041479),

I am a struggling college graduate. I have spent the past seven years learning various 3D techniques. I've gotten some freelance work, but no long term career yet. I currently make close-to minimum wage doing manufacturing full time. I am thinking of going in a different direction with my art by going back to illustration. I got a decent amount back from my tax returns and just wanted to give my background so you can understand how much $2600 is to someone like me. I am pretty good at illustration and computer graphics. I have a Wacom Intuos 3 tablet and it's been well worth the money. The only issue I have with it is that it isn't very easy to just draw something the first time, because I have to constantly redo the stroke because I am drawing while looking up at the screen. I used the Wacom Cintiq in college and liked it fine for drawing stuff. It was pretty useless for anything else though. With the advance of tablets and the Ipad, as well as tablet-laptops, I was wondering if anyone had some suggestions and if the Wacom Cintiq 24hd is worth the sacrifice of $2600 if I am a decent illustrator?

Also, I was looking at the HP EliteBook 2760p as an alternative. The screen is pretty small, and I'm not sure how many pressure levels the touch screen gives.

Thanks everyone!

LuminusTytus
03-25-2012, 11:52 PM
Hello, I posted a thread in matte painting and got some good feedback from it (link) (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=196&t=1041479),

I am a struggling college graduate. I have spent the past seven years learning various 3D techniques. I've gotten some freelance work, but no long term career yet. I currently make close-to minimum wage doing manufacturing full time. I am thinking of going in a different direction with my art by going back to illustration. I got a decent amount back from my tax returns and just wanted to give my background so you can understand how much $2600 is to someone like me. I am pretty good at illustration and computer graphics. I have a Wacom Intuos 3 tablet and it's been well worth the money. The only issue I have with it is that it isn't very easy to just draw something the first time, because I have to constantly redo the stroke because I am drawing while looking up at the screen. I used the Wacom Cintiq in college and liked it fine for drawing stuff. It was pretty useless for anything else though. With the advance of tablets and the Ipad, as well as tablet-laptops, I was wondering if anyone had some suggestions and if the Wacom Cintiq 24hd is worth the sacrifice of $2600 if I am a decent illustrator?

Also, I was looking at the HP EliteBook 2760p as an alternative. The screen is pretty small, and I'm not sure how many pressure levels the touch screen gives.

Thanks everyone!

I'm no expert. Actually I'm not even an artist but I've been watching FZDSchoolofDesign on youtube and this guy teaches concept art digitally. He's worked on Star Wars the movie and a lot of other films. He's an excellent artist and he actually uses the Intuos 3. I found that surprising.

Ajenyon
03-26-2012, 12:19 AM
I always assumed that Cintiq was THE tool to have. If you had the money, you bought one - and if you didn't you were missing out.

Then I actually tried one.

Obviously, YMMV - but my response was 'Yuck'. I couldn't stand it. I was genuinely expecting it to be the most natural, fluid tool to use, but it just didn't do it for me. There was just enough lag, just enough offset between the stylus tip and the stoke for it to be something I was going to have to acclaimatize to. Plus hunching over a painting isn't something I miss.

I've already got used to my tablet, so the fact that my hand was now covering up the part of the image I was trying to work on actually felt slightly wierd (despite years of traditional painting/drawing).

The Cintiq certainly has it's fans, but if you are hurting for money I'd say there are hundreds of better, more useful and more productive things to spend your money on. It won't magically make you paint like a master, and if you go and work in a big studio you aren't going to have one at your workstation anyway. My vote is 'No'.

gjpetch
03-26-2012, 12:55 AM
Stick with the intuos 3, having a cintiq is awesome, but it's only worth it if you earn a good living.

RoundRobbin
03-26-2012, 01:20 AM
look for better deals. i got a 21ux refurbished a while back for $1300-1400. The HD version may be better but the UX accomplishes everything i throw at it..

Dharroun
03-26-2012, 01:38 AM
I dont have an answer to whether or not The Cintiq is worth the cost. However I have had it explained to me this way...

Those who drew growing up extensively and NOT using a mouse MIGHT have a harder time getting used to the offset factor which Intuos has...

And with that- those who have used a mouse prior to learning to draw might be better with this hand eye coordination offset.

So for me personally after a hours of use I never got used to the Intuos...I wish it had been easier but eventually I spent the money on a Cintiq...Thinking of it as a rather crucial element of my transition to organic sculpting and painting...Though I bought the original Cintiq which cost 600 less than the 24HD...One can wish and hope and pray that Wacom decides to make this technology cheaper and more available but until they figure out how to make them without rare and expensive Fairy urine I dont know what to say...

Look up ROSSOMOR or Morgan Egging and check out what he is doing! They boost some incredible things and are half the price. Im very curious about them and hope that eventually this technology is unleashed...made larger, cheaper and more available. I know Im not the only one...The internet is full of people and stories of Cintiq alternatives but none have ever worked out it seems...

Then there was this little thing called "Perceptive Pixel"...But so far it hasnt seemed to make its way into the artistic community.

It might be noted that Apple has tried tirelessly to obtain Wacoms Patent but my guess is the price isnt right.

Quadart
03-26-2012, 03:15 AM
The only thing I can see using a Cintiq for, that I can’t do with an Intuos tablet, is to be able to use drafting implements on the image surface (ellipse and circle templates, curves, straightedges, etc.--with custom brushes) the way I can when working traditionally. Drafting tools can come in handy for doing clean detailed architectural/technical illustration and industrial design/concept work that does not rely on 3d rendered support elements.

Locutus
03-26-2012, 03:33 AM
Based on what you have said, I would say YES!

At my last job I had the 21UX and the 12WX (the 12WX came home with me) and they were great. Since leaving that job and, therefore, the Cintiqs, I've had to start using my Intuos again and I've notice that drawing is a harder for me for some of the same reasons you listed.

When i can afford it, I'm buying my own Cintiq.

leif3d
03-26-2012, 03:46 AM
I've had both an Intuos and Cintiq for years.
I've become really fast with both, but there are things I like about each one.

Cintiq:
For drawing, there is nothing more natural. It's as close as you'll get to paper and there is no lag whatsoever.
I don't know what some people here are talking about when they mean lag, but it's certainly not response time. I work with 17+ inch 300 dpi docs with more than a dozen layers and photoshop is completely real time. For sketching and painting it's incredible.
Maybe people have hardware problems or issues with their preferences, swap, etc...
Intuos:
It's great to work on non-drawing jobs, like compositing, matte painting, etc. Where gestural accuracy with your elbow and shoulder are not as important. You can take advantage of two monitors and really speed up your workflow when compared to a mouse.
Sketching is also great, but I grew up on paper, so for me the cintiq is way faster and more intuitive. People will differ on this depending on their experiences, but being able to move around it and rotating it really helps while gesturing.

conbom
03-26-2012, 04:58 AM
Personal opinion is its priced too high, I used them a fair bit at work (not the 24 however) and actually I really don't think its at all necessary to drop that kind of cash on one, I only used it occasionally and prefer to use the standard tablets and see the whole screen.

Pencil or pen on paper does the same job for those tasks where you need flowing line work or a freehand construction, actually its superior because you can spin the paper round really fast.

You can still totally do that stuff on an intuos its not going to make your drawing bad because its something you control, its slightly easier on a cintiq to freehand draw but still easier on a sheet of paper, Photoshop can process a scanned line work very easily and quickly.

Artbot
03-26-2012, 05:15 AM
If you are not making a living with it, but really feel you want or need one, get the 21". If I had the cash for either (and I have worked on both), I'd still get the 21". Personally, I hated the massive size and weight of the HD.

I think Wacom really dropped the ball on this one. They needed to stay the same size or maybe a little larger, but reduce the weight and footprint of the unit, not increase it massively. Seriously, when a decent pressure-sensitive tablet comes along, Cintiqs (and the worship that goes along with them) will very quickly go the way of the dinosaur.

fablefox
03-26-2012, 02:23 PM
my 2 cent is that cintic is okay for what it can do, but way way way overpriced. Maybe due to lack of competition. Maybe that's why they keep apple at bay. They rather make a profit by selling it at high prices than licensing it to competitors.

They are well built (I used to have small wacom that I bought in 2002 I think, and it still working now. although my brother might be using it). There are other users here mentioning it, they are well built and last long - just search for the post.

I give it a try but - strangely - didn't like it. There are several problems though, and I don't think it's the fault of cintic :

a) the demo computer was very slow. VERY slow. (was it a laptop? i can't remember...)
b) the screen setup. I felt like drawing on a wall. I'm sure it can be put flat, but it was make it almost standing (?) or less diagonal.
c) the software. it was Painter. And I never used it. And the default was pencil. I really wish it was Art Rage.

I didn't bothered to test more because it really way out of my budget, and I'm planning to buy the new ipad anyway. i want to test 12 inch version, but it was not connected. since i never plan to buy anyway, i didn't bother.

but i really don't know. what they forced to sell at that price? or they mark it up really high because they hold certain patent? oh well.

PerryDS
03-26-2012, 02:36 PM
I have the say that using the 24HD is definitely a unique experience from previous models. I was using a 21UX previous, and the flow - sensibility is different. The 24hd feels more like a drawing table ... rather than a drawing tablet. The quality of the build is solid as well ... extremely sturdy.

evolucian
03-26-2012, 02:43 PM
I had a 12 inch cintiq. It pissed me off that i couldnt use my dual 24 inch monitors. That was the end of it. The most i did was texture work, but im a compositor so for that it was worthless. I get much more mileage out of an intuos for obvious reasons.

Malanjo
03-26-2012, 03:07 PM
I have a Intuos 3 A5 and a Cintiq 21UX, and honestly I just use Cintiq as display...; Is not a bad product, is great to draw on it, but personally I prefer to see the model\drawing that I'm working on a little bit far with no hands on top. :)

Fahrija
03-26-2012, 10:04 PM
I'm no expert. Actually I'm not even an artist but I've been watching FZDSchoolofDesign on youtube and this guy teaches concept art digitally. He's worked on Star Wars the movie and a lot of other films. He's an excellent artist and he actually uses the Intuos 3. I found that surprising.

Feng answered this question in one of his tutorial videos. While using a cintiq you tend to bend the upper part of the body over to the screen and that can cause headaches pretty fast. Additonally if you try to sit straight in front of a Cintiq you have to stretch your arm more forward which is also not quite convinient. With the Intous you can sit straight and work ergonomicaly better for long hours because it is possible to arrange the desktop to keep the arms in a 90 degree position with elbow close to the body the head and torso straight infront of a monitor.

If you think about buying an cintiq it might be good to try it out for a complete day to see if you have trouble with that issue or not.


.

ThE_JacO
03-27-2012, 12:06 AM
Feng answered this question in one of his tutorial videos. While using a cintiq you tend to bend the upper part of the body over to the screen and that can cause headaches pretty fast. Additonally if you try to sit straight in front of a Cintiq you have to stretch your arm more forward which is also not quite convinient. With the Intous you can sit straight and work ergonomicaly better for long hours because it is possible to arrange the desktop to keep the arms in a 90 degree position with elbow close to the body the head and torso straight infront of a monitor.

If you think about buying an cintiq it might be good to try it out for a complete day to see if you have trouble with that issue or not.


.
Possibly the best advice given yet.
I've tried Cintiqs several times, and there's a lot to it I like, but I really can't get over the impossible posture they require and how clunky they can be to move around.
It does indeed feel like drawing in some regards, but more so on a light table than it does on a sketchpad.

I see practically every artist in story, many of them coming from Disney, doing really well with it. They are used to the awkward position, the fact you can't re-angle easily your "pad", and the fixed support.
A lot of other people who had one though gave it up after a while even if they liked it because they couldn't do long sessions on it.

I'd say before you fork out the money for it, it's one of those things you really, really, really want to try as it's not for everybody. You also don't want to make the mistake of treating it like a monitor and going bigger = better.
I haven't tried the 24HD, but the 21 already felt unwieldy and over thick through all its incarnations, the 24 must be a workout. I agree with Artbot's opinion here.

DaddyMack
03-27-2012, 01:03 AM
I use a tablet pc for all my basic drawing/ sculpting and only go to my Cintiq for high detail. I enjoy the portability of my tablet pc a great deal.

bobtronic
03-27-2012, 07:31 AM
We had the 24HD in the office for testing for some weeks and it was gathering dust because nobody really could get used to it. Personally I found it way too big and got pain in my shoulders rather quickly. Also the issue that you cover the area you are working on with your hand was annoying me greatly. I think draftsmen who are used to working on a drawing table may be better off.

cheers,
Matthias

ThE_JacO
03-27-2012, 07:54 AM
We had the 24HD in the office for testing for some weeks and it was gathering dust because nobody really could get used to it. Personally I found it way too big and got pain in my shoulders rather quickly. Also the issue that you cover the area you are working on with your hand was annoying me greatly. I think draftsmen who are used to working on a drawing table may be better off.

cheers,
Matthias
For drawing that isn't a big issue, the arm getting in the way I mean. What you gain in response to gestures and visual coordination more then makes up for it. For digital sculpting it was annoying the hell out of me, to the point where it was downright counterproductive.

mykyl
03-27-2012, 07:55 AM
I own the 12wx and most of the time I use it as a standard tablet rather than for the screen. I could have saved a load and bought a standard tablet in the first place but I listened to too much "wow, you have to get one" etc etc etc.

Don't listen to the hype. Try it. Don't just try it once for a couple of minutes either. It does not suit everybody.

If you like it then purchase it.

Mike

Fahrija
03-27-2012, 10:19 AM
[...] I see practically every artist in story, many of them coming from Disney, doing really well with it. [...]


Maybe it has something to do with individual compensation and fitness. Generally a fit body allways helps very much being a deskworker. But ergonomically also the disney workers carry the same anatomy as everybody else and will get in same trouble later if not sooner using the cintiq with a unhealty body posture. I peronally see a cintiq only in combination with a heightadjustable table (like the guys at pixar e.g.) Then the cintiq can be used parttime as an easle by changing the height of the table.


sidenote: The intuos has it´s own obstacles. If you don´t see your hand anymore you do not recognize how weird your using your wrist if you have to work a lot (especially while painting). It is very important to use the whole forearm doing big/ middle strokes with a rather fixed wrist. The wrist only comes in play when you´re drawing details. If found myself with a cramped hand from time to time because I were starring at the screen working like hypnotized without noticing that issue.


.

bobtronic
03-27-2012, 10:25 AM
Btw. I was quite disapointed by the display quality of the 24HD (colors etc.).

As mentioned it's really something you should try for a longer period if possible.

cheers,
Matthias

Quadart
03-27-2012, 10:43 AM
As a traditional to digital 2d artist covert in 2001, I find it strange that people complain about the crippling bad-ergonomic effects of basically looking downward while they work (headaches?), when that’s what artists and writers/scribes have been doing for millennia, marking on horizontal and inclined substrates, until the recent practice of peering straight out at a vertical screen.

A lot people just can’t deal with the remote drawing aspect of using a non-screen tablet (drawing on one plane and watching the mark appear on another at a 90° angle and at a different scale), as it is unnatural. It does take a little getting used to. At this point I can draw/mark as confidently using an Intuos device as I can on paper. The digital nib to surface feel was more of an issue to get around than the eye-hand proprioceptual thing.

My biggest issue with tablets, whether screen or not, is with pen nib-to-surface drag. I have yet to find the right combination of nib and surface material that hits the sweet spot. Since I haven’t played with a Cintiq, I wonder how the surface feel compares to the intuos3 (specifically). Currently I’m back to using the flex nibs on the bare Intuos3 surface. I was using a piece of 2 mil drafting Mylar taped smooth side up on the tablet for quite a while. It created the right amount of drag but it becomes inconsistent over time from skin oil and dry spots. The oil is actually a plus.

As some have mentioned, you have to try it before you buy it. There are a lot of variables involved (color gamut, screen res, ergonomics, surface feel, etc.) in the decision and most of them will be personal (not based on others testimonials) that will either steer you toward or away from buying a Cintiq, outside of the all important price issue. As far as personal variables go, case in point, I would have to get another pair of glasses to focus closer (equaling less depth of field than my current working specs) to use a Cintiq. I’m at the age where prebyopia has kicked in hard (not to be confused with priapism :D). I can’t stand progressive lenses so I prefer working on large monitors (currently using a 30” and 23” side) at a 30” distance to get better depth of field out of the specs I need to see clearly.

MAN0
03-27-2012, 11:10 AM
ive got the 2009 cintiq and 2011 wacom intuos. colors and display colors are poor @ cintiq. also on the outer display space your cursor gets shaky...which i first thought is a broken unit but many people have this problem. its great for illustrations and stuff like coloring for me but i work 95 % with my intuos a5wide for daily work. specially i need my keyboard for my shortcuts in each program and keyboard + cintiq just doesnt work for me right. :banghead:

edit @ Quadart: drawing on an intuos feels mutch! more natural than on a cintiq. i love the surface of the new wacom intuos in combination with a soft tip :beer:

Fahrija
03-27-2012, 12:41 PM
As a traditional to digital 2d artist covert in 2001, I find it strange that people complain about the crippling bad-ergonomic effects of basically looking downward while they work (headaches?), when that’s what artists and writers/scribes have been doing for millennia, marking on horizontal and inclined substrates, until the recent practice of peering straight out at a vertical screen.


I think those people had to tackle this problem, too. Today this topic went much more into the foreground because the output-repetition-time is much higher. There is a constant repetition of the same few reduced movements. You never leave the "canvas" because everything is at the same place (color picker, mixer, eraser, ...) The old painters mixed their colors not at the canvas itself - if you watch one of donatos video tutorials you see that there is a bigger variation of movements during a development of an analog illustration. You never depend on the daylight because your monitor is shiny itself. That means 8-12 hours rather than 4-6 hours. It all comes to speed these days when working in the industry and therefore this is a topic to be aware of - especially if you tend to buy a tool for more than 2000 euro.

In a documentary it sais michelangelo had heavy headaches issues during the work in the Cistine Chapel to a point where merly wasn´t able to continue his work. And look and the piano pros in the orchestra (nearly same posture position as computer users) you see without cause none of them hanging forward on their stools like drinkers in the bar.


.

Quadart
03-27-2012, 02:16 PM
I think those people had to tackle this problem, too. Today this topic went much more into the foreground because the output-repetition-time is much higher. There is a constant repetition of the same few reduced movements. You never leave the "canvas" because everything is at the same place (color picker, mixer, eraser, ...) The old painters mixed their colors not at the canvas itself - if you watch one of donatos video tutorials you see that there is a bigger variation of movements during a development of an analog illustration. You never depend on the daylight because your monitor is shiny itself. That means 8-12 hours rather than 4-6 hours. It all comes to speed these days when working in the industry and therefore this is a topic to be aware of - especially if you tend to buy a tool for more than 2000 euro.

In a documentary it sais michelangelo had heavy headaches issues during the work in the Cistine Chapel to a point where merly wasn´t able to continue his work. And look and the piano pros in the orchestra (nearly same posture position as computer users) you see without cause none of them hanging forward on their stools like drinkers in the bar

I’m one of those people, and there was no problem to tackle for me or the other illustrators I knew, as in ergonomic nuisance pains. As a professional (then traditional) illustrator working long hours and pulling many an all-nighter I can attest to you that adding more repetitive activities (twisting constantly to reach palettes or brushes) does nothing to alleviate potential repetitive motion problems, they exacerbate potential issues. I kept my pigment palettes and brush selection as close to my work as possible. The cherry picked Michelangelo painting the ceiling example was stretching it a bit. I get aches and pains just thinking about taking on that mural job. :argh:

Personally, I did a lot of work using gouache, standing while oil painting on easel mounted hardboard (using a mahl stick to steady the hand while adding details), and airbrushing (professionally since the age of 16). Nothing is as repetitively crippling (as far as sitting on your ass at a table) as doing a complex technical illustration using the airbrush, where 90% of the work entails meticulously, surgically, cutting (avoiding cutting too deep or not deep enough) adhesive masking with an x-acto knife for hours upon hours, hunched over with your nose to the board making dead sure your cut lines are dead on as planned by the tight under drawing you made so precisely using drafting implements.

I’m sure drawing on a Cintiq wont be sending me to see the doc. :)
----

drawing on an intuos feels mutch! more natural than on a cintiq. i love the surface of the new wacom intuos in combination with a soft tip :beer:
Thanks!

sentry66
03-27-2012, 04:35 PM
I've heard of lots of cintiq users having lots of back pain.

I know a new model came out. Not sure it'll solve that though

RoundRobbin
03-27-2012, 06:53 PM
an ergonomic arm is necessary when working with a cintiq, I'm guessing these arm companies make a killing cuz of the cintiqs alone. A nice 3 jointed arm for a 21ux that could handle heavy loads while twisting and turning maintaining rigidity and stiffness for the lazy artist. Although, I don't know at the moment if the one I have could handle the weight of an HD.
Possibly the best advice given yet.
I've tried Cintiqs several times, and there's a lot to it I like, but I really can't get over the impossible posture they require and how clunky they can be to move around.
It does indeed feel like drawing in some regards, but more so on a light table than it does on a sketchpad.

I see practically every artist in story, many of them coming from Disney, doing really well with it. They are used to the awkward position, the fact you can't re-angle easily your "pad", and the fixed support.
A lot of other people who had one though gave it up after a while even if they liked it because they couldn't do long sessions on it.

I'd say before you fork out the money for it, it's one of those things you really, really, really want to try as it's not for everybody. You also don't want to make the mistake of treating it like a monitor and going bigger = better.
I haven't tried the 24HD, but the 21 already felt unwieldy and over thick through all its incarnations, the 24 must be a workout. I agree with Artbot's opinion here.

ThE_JacO
03-27-2012, 11:50 PM
As a traditional to digital 2d artist covert in 2001, I find it strange that people complain about the crippling bad-ergonomic effects of basically looking downward while they work (headaches?), when that’s what artists and writers/scribes have been doing for millennia, marking on horizontal and inclined substrates, until the recent practice of peering straight out at a vertical screen.
Yeah, and posture related issues in all those professions are recorded from millennia ago to now :)
Animators at light tables are the first equivalent of knowledge professional with similar working hours to ours and with such a posture requirement, and they have a long tradition of notredame hunches, tension headaches, neck problems and so on.

Most of what you mention, through history, also worked standing, including traditional animators, who had standing stations or high perches for the majority, we compound the problem with having to do that AND sitting down.

Good posture and a standing desk did wonders for me, and I went from not being able to get out of bed back issues at some point to a perfectly healthy back in the last 4 years.

CofTsucks
03-28-2012, 04:22 AM
What about the Yiyonova?

mybutterflyiris
03-28-2012, 06:00 AM
Hey Jeremy! What's up?!
I totally understand your pains of struggling to find your long term career, but I hope you don't think that things will get any easier if you switch to illustration. I'm not trying to discourage you from doing so, if you feel that is the direction your heart is in, but I don't want you to invest large amounts of money into it with the illusion that it will solve all your problems. Since I graduated (officially nov 2010) I've been in the same boat as you and I've been doing some freelance illustration and had one illustration even published in Expose 9, but still no long term career (that is to say a full time job in the entertainment industry) quite yet.
So, in summary, if you do invest in a cintiq then just know you will still most likely have a long journey in front of you. And with that said, I must say that I do miss using a cintiq and think they are awesome. I don't know anything about the alternatives, so I'm not much help there. haha...

mustique
03-28-2012, 10:17 AM
Tried to use a cintiq on a couple of occasions. My eyes and arm hurt after a while and didn't feel like I was more productive than with an intuos. So for me it is not worth the money.

As soon as it ships in the form of a 17" tablet slate PC - with retina resolution - hand gesture support and 8-10 hours battery life I will look into it again. Maybe. :arteest:

Quadart
03-28-2012, 12:18 PM
Yeah, and posture related issues in all those professions are recorded from millennia ago to now :)
Animators at light tables are the first equivalent of knowledge professional with similar working hours to ours and with such a posture requirement, and they have a long tradition of notredame hunches, tension headaches, neck problems and so on.
Yes you're right, but I’d be willing to bet that a lot of the individuals working in those professions would still have posture related problems, to some degree, if they worked in any other occupation. A lot of people exhibit bad posture in general, especially the elderly where slow age related spinal deterioration and gravity show their lifetime cumulative effect. Sure, sitting at a desk for long hours all week doesn’t help.

Idunno, I still don’t see why slouching over a Cintiq is a requirement, when it appears that it can be adjusted to an angle that would alleviate having to do so.

I think a big problem with many artists is having posture debilitating bad drawing habits carried forward from childhood. Just looking at the way some folks hold a pen/pencil (let alone how forced and contorted some look when working) is cringe worthy, especially with some of my lefty compadres.

A herniated lumbar disk from a late 70s head-on car crash makes me no stranger to back pain/sciatica. Funny thing with me, sitting at an inclined drawing table painting on illustration board for hours on end never aggravated the condition (although most slouching postures seem to effect the upper back, shoulders and neck for people).

Ultimately, allowing the spine to bend into a Shepard’s hook so one looks like Quasimoto at the light table is mainly the fault of the ‘slouch’—IMO.

**I’m not defending the Cintiq as I’ve never used one nor feel it necessary to own, personally, and I am one that believes in using the best tool for the job. I also don’t think that, as a product, it is worth it’s price.

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Dharroun
03-28-2012, 09:33 PM
Im glad to see this thread evolve into more info on the Cintiq. There seems to be more contempt towards them due to their high price and subsequent exclusivity.

Isnt it just a little odd that by now we havent seen more tablets with serious art capabilities?
Dont think for one second we are that unique...Everyone wants to draw? And whats so hard about a tablet that can achieve both hand and pen recognition?
There are tablets like the Asus EP121 and although they work with all the same technology as a cintiq none have yet to achieve any higher than 512 levels of pressure. As for Cintiq's Im glad we are up to 2048 but I want and would benefit from even more! I think they made the right moves by making the new models color more accurate as this is directly noticeable when you compare your work with a well calibrated screen...The old cintiqs colors are not much to talk about.

The new version does have a fan...This is nice as both older models of the Cintiq get hot especially at the top...So much so I have put a fan behind it to cool mine in summer months...

I see no real reasons why there hasnt been an Intuous sized tablet complete with a high resolution LCD screen though. I go so far as to wonder if the crayon, marker and arts and crafts market is worried kids might just start going all digital?

Maybe Wacoms listening and will SHARE this patent a bit more easily...? Maybe noone really would want an Ipad capable of drawing and sculpting? They both like their logos in your face and rightfully so! These 2 are sleek...giants in their own right. It'd be a beautiful relationship is all...

conbom
03-29-2012, 12:59 AM
I see no real reasons why there hasnt been an Intuous sized tablet complete with a high resolution LCD screen though.

Exactly its 2012 and they are still charging thousands for a drawing tablet with a screen. Ludicrous. The intuos is pretty much the exact same product from 10 years + ago, pressure levels don't mean much past 1024.

Wacom should just put a screen in the intuos, and call it the intuos 6 hell it should have been done years ago. They could so easily do it with some good design, bump the price by the cost of the panel + a little extra why not? Id pay for that, I would imagine many in this thread would too. That 24HD beast must have such a niche market its not even worth keeping the tech locked away for that one model while the core audience are stuck with 90s technology..

ThE_JacO
03-29-2012, 01:38 AM
Exactly its 2012 and they are still charging thousands for a drawing tablet with a screen. Ludicrous. The intuos is pretty much the exact same product from 10 years + ago, pressure levels don't mean much past 1024.
I'll have to disagree with that.
While there have been no paradigm shifts in the intuous line, the intuous2 was a big upgrade from the first gen, the 3 was an irrelevant upgrade, but the intuous4 was a considerable step up.

The resolution, response, number of parameters considered, and how they are interpolated in the device and what it offers to the drivers to manipulate have all been a major step up. The feeling of it, which is the most important part in a tablet, has improved immensely frmo the intuous 2 or 3, and the additional buttons, lag-less bluetooth and so on are all very, very nice workflow improvements and not just a gimmick.
I was skeptic, but after getting one at work the sculpting experience was so drastically improved that I ordered one point blank for myself at home the same day.

The construction quality is also excellent, as is its ergonomy, just the construction quality of the buttons themselves is probably below expections compared to the rest. The price point, given its market and all, is also not unreasonable.

Also not everybody wants a display with a tablet on top, there are uses and advantages to either over the other in different contexts.

Not a wacom fan, quite the opposite in fact, but you really can't put down the intuous4 as an insiginificant upgrade, because it's not.

conbom
03-29-2012, 07:26 PM
'll have to disagree with that.
While there have been no paradigm shifts in the intuous line, the intuous2 was a big upgrade from the first gen, the 3 was an irrelevant upgrade, but the intuous4 was a considerable step up.

Correct me if I'm mistaken but the Intuos 2 is over a decade old! It came out in 2001.

I used most of the Wacom tablets extensively, and honestly the difference between 2,3 and 4 is negligible, the painting would look no different depending on what version you used the workflow and time taken to achieve it would be near identical, that's what really counts. Only a display could improve its function and go some way to close the disconnect. Some people, myself included like the disconnect for certain work but for other stuff I like to be immersed in the image and have 1:1 precision, a well designed product could easily cater for both!

The buttons on the 4 were way too stiff and better on the 3 so that was a massive ergonomic fail on one of the most important aspects, to the point I never bothered to use them, does anyone use the rotate pads? I never did. For every additional feature they put on the product the keyboard is still faster.

I do agree with you the product feels much nicer than it did a decade ago but nothing in the way of real workflow advances such as a display. Unless of course one has 2+ grand to burn. That's too expensive, and for no good reason.

CB_3D
03-29-2012, 08:22 PM
Well, I got one (the 21UX) when I had money to burn.

I had been using tablets for years for everything including modeling, browsing and and..well...everything. And I always loved it, so much control and way faster and more comfortable than a mouse.

So I thought a Cintiq would give me the same jump in productivity and comfort I got when I dumped the mouse for tablets.

Big mistake!

For once I am totally tuned to a tablet now. So just seeing on a clean screen what I do with my hands on the table has become totally automated.

"But ok, that´s normal" I thought. "Just have to insist a bit to get used to this new way! It cost me a leg and a hand so once I get used to it will be better! It has to, right?"

Right...

The position it forces you to work in is terrible. Having your hand and pen covering your menus and the work itself is irritating.

And then there´s always that feeling that you can almost touch your work in 3d (modeling and sculpting) and the damn surface is just there to block your hand from reaching out. Gives you an "Almost but not quite" frustration that I don´t get with a tablet.


I could imagine it to be interesting for some purely graphical or illustrative work, but even for that the slight discrepancy between pentip and cursor doesn´t help.


After trying for 3 months to get used to it I gave up and sold it.

gauranga108
03-31-2012, 09:50 PM
I think everyone sees a 24" monitor with pressure sensitivity for a crazy $2600! I can get a full hd nice 24" monitor from costco for $150 and a wacom tablet for $300 or so . . . where the hell does the extra $2150 come from!

Is the technology really so earth shattering to cost that much?

Are artist stupid or something?

iPad is kicking the cintq in the face, but still wacom holds to it's price, stubborn company.

Sorry for the rant but man . . . :banghead:

Wacom makes amazing product. My tablet is the oldest piece of hard ware I have ever used and still use daily by far. Wacom can make a great product but not that great.

toonafish
04-01-2012, 10:42 AM
I've had the 21UX for quite some time now, and I'm still very happy with it. But I only use it for sketching and drawing, for all other stuff, even Zbrush, I prefer an Intuos.
I only have the Cintiq at the office and sometimes I have to continue working at home on my tablet, and it just feels like I don't have as much control.

malcolmvexxed
04-01-2012, 07:28 PM
I plan to get the 24hd one for my painting, and it will be worth it just for that. I've played around with them and they bring me closer to my normal drawing experience.

ThE_JacO
04-01-2012, 11:35 PM
I plan to get the 24hd one for my painting, and it will be worth it just for that. I've played around with them and they bring me closer to my normal drawing experience.
Consider trying the 21 too if you haven't. Bigger isn't necessarily better.
I know a few people (me included) that find the reach and movements needed for the 21 already a bit of a stretch. Finding yourself wishing it was a 19 kind of thing you know.

If you tried both and like the draftsman feeling of the 24, then ignore this.

Definitely try before buying though if you haven't. The cintiq is very much a love or hate thing.

BigPixolin
04-01-2012, 11:51 PM
Consider trying the 21 too if you haven't. Bigger isn't necessarily better.
I know a few people (me included) that find the reach and movements needed for the 21 already a bit of a stretch. Finding yourself wishing it was a 19 kind of thing you know.

I agree with that. My first tablet was huge, A4 I think. I prefer a much smaller tablet with less arm movements. My arm started to hurt using that gigantic tablet.

ThE_JacO
04-02-2012, 01:41 AM
Yeah, that too.
For CAD, when I was still in school, the A2 were great, but for sculpting or colouring I'd probably rather use a B5 over an A4, and the sweet spot for me is A5.
How much you control strokes between shoulder, elbow and wrist makes it hugely personal.

nisachar
04-03-2012, 03:31 PM
A cintiq with its 2600$ makes less and less sense, with HD+ pads and neat all in one tablets in the market.

conbom
04-04-2012, 01:12 AM
I use and Intuos 2 A3 and for one screen it is too big really, I have it mapped across two monitors currently, You can set exactly how large you want the active surface area to be so size is not really an issue functionally. A4 is the sweet spot for painting imo but its fairly easy to adapt to any size really

I actually got it fairly cheaply on Ebay the reason for A3 is that its a very good size for hacking into a Cintiq :). I do need to get hold of a backup tablet in-case it all goes wrong.

rimce44
04-04-2012, 08:35 AM
I think you can find something better to choose from.
---
Painter and Decorator in Putney (http://www.lgcdecorators.co.uk/putneypainter.html) Painters and Decorators London (http://homepainter.co.uk/)

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