Andy741
11-20-2003, 06:27 AM
Are there any plans for muscle simulation in m:a? I think I've asked something like this before. Like skin and fat realistically sliding over muscle, with different thicknesses of the skin.
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fwtep
11-20-2003, 06:41 AM
I sort of understand what you mean, even though fat and muscle don't slide over each other, they're locked together, though when there's a lot of fat it jiggles, and that can already be done in messiah. Can you give an example of when you'd use sliding?
Or maybe a better question would be what would you want, that's not already there, to do something like that? In other words, how would the setup be different?
Fred
Or maybe a better question would be what would you want, that's not already there, to do something like that? In other words, how would the setup be different?
Fred
chikega
11-20-2003, 12:36 PM
I think he may be referring to something like the "Absolute Character Tools" - a highly specialized plug-in for Max.
http://www.cgcharacter.com/act_product_description.html
Just as an aside, from having taken Anatomy courses (dissecting cadavers) twice - the human skin does slide a bit over the muscles - but it's fixed in general here and there - almost like with little rivets or wires (small tiny tendons that go from the fascia of the muscle to the base of the skin). Depends on what area. Dogs on the other hand, their skin is not attached in general - it's very loose and affords them some protection during scuffles - I guess.
I believe someone mentioned that they could actually do a better job that "ACT" with the existing tools in messiah. I couldn't find the exact thread - but this one may be a start.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97680
Nice to see pmG added the "Glass Cage" video to the Gallery section on their site. Now, that's some nice deformation in the shoulder area. Awesome, awesome.
http://www.cgcharacter.com/act_product_description.html
Just as an aside, from having taken Anatomy courses (dissecting cadavers) twice - the human skin does slide a bit over the muscles - but it's fixed in general here and there - almost like with little rivets or wires (small tiny tendons that go from the fascia of the muscle to the base of the skin). Depends on what area. Dogs on the other hand, their skin is not attached in general - it's very loose and affords them some protection during scuffles - I guess.
I believe someone mentioned that they could actually do a better job that "ACT" with the existing tools in messiah. I couldn't find the exact thread - but this one may be a start.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97680
Nice to see pmG added the "Glass Cage" video to the Gallery section on their site. Now, that's some nice deformation in the shoulder area. Awesome, awesome.
Andy741
11-20-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by chikega
I think he may be referring to something like the "Absolute Character Tools" - a highly specialized plug-in for Max.
http://www.cgcharacter.com/act_product_description.html
Yes chikega, that's exactly what I was thinking of. This video illustrates what I'm going after: www.cgcharacter.com/downloads/cgSkinLeg.avi
I think he may be referring to something like the "Absolute Character Tools" - a highly specialized plug-in for Max.
http://www.cgcharacter.com/act_product_description.html
Yes chikega, that's exactly what I was thinking of. This video illustrates what I'm going after: www.cgcharacter.com/downloads/cgSkinLeg.avi
chikega
11-21-2003, 01:00 AM
Very cool example Andy - but man they got the contraction of the quads all wrong. They have it bulging (esp. around the knee) during it's relaxed phase - it should be bulging (contracting) when the leg is extended.
Oh well - very cool example nonetheless.
Oh well - very cool example nonetheless.
grzesiekj
11-21-2003, 01:13 AM
you can achieve the skin sliding, using Metaeffectors, and for example Bloat (with dynamic weights)
attach your Metaeffetors to the bones, and you will have a nice combination of muscle/skin movements.
cheers
G.Jonkajtys
attach your Metaeffetors to the bones, and you will have a nice combination of muscle/skin movements.
cheers
G.Jonkajtys
chikega
11-21-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by grzesiekj
you can achieve the skin sliding, using Metaeffectors, and for example Bloat (with dynamic weights)
attach your Metaeffetors to the bones, and you will have a nice combination of muscle/skin movements.
cheers
G.Jonkajtys
This would be an awesome tutorial .... grzesiekj, joe cosman, john riggs .... anyone, anyone ... :)
you can achieve the skin sliding, using Metaeffectors, and for example Bloat (with dynamic weights)
attach your Metaeffetors to the bones, and you will have a nice combination of muscle/skin movements.
cheers
G.Jonkajtys
This would be an awesome tutorial .... grzesiekj, joe cosman, john riggs .... anyone, anyone ... :)
Andy741
11-21-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by chikega
This would be an awesome tutorial .... grzesiekj, joe cosman, john riggs .... anyone, anyone ... :)
Totally. If I could see an example like the cgcharacter video done in messiah, my mouth would hang open in astonishment. Although, I would understand if it can't be done in messiah, I mean there's really only a few specialized tools that can accomplish this sort of thing in the entire industry and they don't come cheap. I'm almost like, messiah can do that? yeah right. I'm way skeptical about that. But hey, if you can prove me wrong, more power to ya. I'll be understanding when you say, "messiah:animate just can't do what those ACT cgcharacter tools can do. We concede defeat." I mean I don't blame you. They've set the bar quite high and they have like tons of programmers working day and night just for that one purpose. You see, I'm an understanding person and if messiah doesn't have what it takes, then that's okay. No biggie.
Plus, if messiah:animate could do the same thing as those ACT tools, I think it might offend them since they've put all that manpower into just one idea. It would be kind of insulting to them.
This would be an awesome tutorial .... grzesiekj, joe cosman, john riggs .... anyone, anyone ... :)
Totally. If I could see an example like the cgcharacter video done in messiah, my mouth would hang open in astonishment. Although, I would understand if it can't be done in messiah, I mean there's really only a few specialized tools that can accomplish this sort of thing in the entire industry and they don't come cheap. I'm almost like, messiah can do that? yeah right. I'm way skeptical about that. But hey, if you can prove me wrong, more power to ya. I'll be understanding when you say, "messiah:animate just can't do what those ACT cgcharacter tools can do. We concede defeat." I mean I don't blame you. They've set the bar quite high and they have like tons of programmers working day and night just for that one purpose. You see, I'm an understanding person and if messiah doesn't have what it takes, then that's okay. No biggie.
Plus, if messiah:animate could do the same thing as those ACT tools, I think it might offend them since they've put all that manpower into just one idea. It would be kind of insulting to them.
Adam-Han
11-21-2003, 06:14 PM
I've mentioned this briefly on the list (not in reference to muscle simulation), but I think expanding sphereize would be perfect for muscle simulation. If simple objects could be loaded in place of the default sphere, then deformed, then used to deform other geometry - in this case, skin... This would allow you to use all messiah's tools to build a muscle rig. If the different objects could be assigned a different slip value, you could have varying levels of skin sliding and so on.
-Adam
-Adam
chikega
11-21-2003, 09:45 PM
Maybe atleast having the ability to scale the spherize along one axis to have more of a football or cigar shape ... and being able to tie the scaling to the bone rotation ... I can see the possiblities:)
Maybe something like this:
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/hellhound_wire.jpg
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/hellhound.JPG
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/hellhound_dino.JPG
Maybe something like this:
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/hellhound_wire.jpg
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/hellhound.JPG
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/hellhound_dino.JPG
Adam-Han
11-21-2003, 10:17 PM
That would be a huge jump in the right direction. Now imagine if soft bodies could be applied to the shpereize effect - jiggling muscles!
lmilton
11-22-2003, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by chikega
Maybe atleast having the ability to scale the spherize along one axis to have more of a football or cigar shape ... and being able to tie the scaling to the bone rotation ... I can see the possiblities:)
Have you tried scaling the Null tool of Spherize?
-lyle
Maybe atleast having the ability to scale the spherize along one axis to have more of a football or cigar shape ... and being able to tie the scaling to the bone rotation ... I can see the possiblities:)
Have you tried scaling the Null tool of Spherize?
-lyle
grzesiekj
11-22-2003, 01:15 AM
Hello:)
here is the example of my rig using bloat and metaefectors connected to bones.
Bones ar pushing the mesh, bloat - with dynamic weights - is sliding beneath the skin...
(as for now, "Spherize" doesn't work with weights, but "bloat" does:)
http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/facial_muscles.mov
cheers
G.Jonkajtys
here is the example of my rig using bloat and metaefectors connected to bones.
Bones ar pushing the mesh, bloat - with dynamic weights - is sliding beneath the skin...
(as for now, "Spherize" doesn't work with weights, but "bloat" does:)
http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/facial_muscles.mov
cheers
G.Jonkajtys
fwtep
11-22-2003, 01:57 AM
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I still haven't seen anything here or elsewhere that shows a need for any muscle tool that doesn't already exist in messiah. There already are muscle bones and Flex and Flexmotion.
This thing, which is also on the web site, doesn't use MetaEffectors or anything super fancy. It's just bones and muscle bones, with all settings at their defaults.
http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/images/LucyFace_With_Bones_04.gif
I remember when "Antz" came out and one of the "making of's" showed them doing all sorts of muscles over bones stuff, but the final effect looked no different than just using bones/muscle bones (as above) or morphs.
I'll jump right on board and beg for these tools too, just as soon as I see something that can't easily be done with the existing tools. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, I'm just saying to get a better understanding of the extreme power of what's already there. It might not look like what you're expecting (the OpenGL representations of the muscles), and it might not have the fancy name you're expecting, but it does what's needed.
Fred
This thing, which is also on the web site, doesn't use MetaEffectors or anything super fancy. It's just bones and muscle bones, with all settings at their defaults.
http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/images/LucyFace_With_Bones_04.gif
I remember when "Antz" came out and one of the "making of's" showed them doing all sorts of muscles over bones stuff, but the final effect looked no different than just using bones/muscle bones (as above) or morphs.
I'll jump right on board and beg for these tools too, just as soon as I see something that can't easily be done with the existing tools. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, I'm just saying to get a better understanding of the extreme power of what's already there. It might not look like what you're expecting (the OpenGL representations of the muscles), and it might not have the fancy name you're expecting, but it does what's needed.
Fred
chikega
11-22-2003, 02:02 AM
Originally posted by grzesiekj
Hello:)
here is the example of my rig using bloat and metaefectors connected to bones.
Bones ar pushing the mesh, bloat - with dynamic weights - is sliding beneath the skin...
(as for now, "Spherize" doesn't work with weights, but "bloat" does:)
http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/facial_muscles.mov
cheers
G.Jonkajtys
Can't seem to load your file with either Internet Explorer or Opera browser ... nothing shows up ... just a blank page ... :hmm:
Hello:)
here is the example of my rig using bloat and metaefectors connected to bones.
Bones ar pushing the mesh, bloat - with dynamic weights - is sliding beneath the skin...
(as for now, "Spherize" doesn't work with weights, but "bloat" does:)
http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/facial_muscles.mov
cheers
G.Jonkajtys
Can't seem to load your file with either Internet Explorer or Opera browser ... nothing shows up ... just a blank page ... :hmm:
grzesiekj
11-22-2003, 02:06 AM
You may want to enable your cookies...
grzesiek
grzesiek
chikega
11-22-2003, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by lmilton
Have you tried scaling the Null tool of Spherize?
-lyle
Wow, Lyle, that did the trick. I guess I was stumped b/c there wasn't anything indicating the ability to scale on the graphical Edit Sphere - it's labeled HPB with S in the middle - so, it led me to believe it scaled only on all axes uniformly.
I continued playing around and happened upon the Mini-slider in SZ Scale field and wouldn't you know it, I could scale along one axis interactively and give it a cigar shape. messiah is full of surprises :).
It could be even more user friendly if there were some type of graphical representation for Spherize - I know Joe Cosman suggested parenting a procedural sphere but I'm not sure if it will scale along with the Spherize sphere.
Have you tried scaling the Null tool of Spherize?
-lyle
Wow, Lyle, that did the trick. I guess I was stumped b/c there wasn't anything indicating the ability to scale on the graphical Edit Sphere - it's labeled HPB with S in the middle - so, it led me to believe it scaled only on all axes uniformly.
I continued playing around and happened upon the Mini-slider in SZ Scale field and wouldn't you know it, I could scale along one axis interactively and give it a cigar shape. messiah is full of surprises :).
It could be even more user friendly if there were some type of graphical representation for Spherize - I know Joe Cosman suggested parenting a procedural sphere but I'm not sure if it will scale along with the Spherize sphere.
chikega
11-22-2003, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by fwtep
I'll jump right on board and beg for these tools too, just as soon as I see something that can't easily be done with the existing tools. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, I'm just saying to get a better understanding of the extreme power of what's already there. It might not look like what you're expecting (the OpenGL representations of the muscles), and it might not have the fancy name you're expecting, but it does what's needed.
Fred
I remember seeing the same muscle layers on the "making of" Shrek as well and I thought - "wow, that sure is a lot of R&D for those characters". I'd have to agree - seems a bit much for the final result.
I believe the thread started out by someone asking if messiah could do the skin-sliding-over-muscle effect. I'm kinda new to the whole animation thing and I've just started to learn messiah - (only had it for a few weeks). So, I'm not quite familiar with it's powerful toolset. I'm just figuring things out as I go along - like scaling only one axis of a Spherize Null. Other more experienced users (grzesiekj) do have familiarity with the toolset and have, indeed, confirmed what you're saying - that it is possible to achieve this effect with the existing toolset (save for a few minor things). So, in essence, I believe the original thread starter was just asking if this was possible and it seems it is. Now if someone can do a little tutorial on this effect ... I'd be pleased as punch.
Fred, that is an awesome rig for the Sasquatch ape creature - did you model and rig the creature? Have you thought about doing a "making of" type tutorial on the CG effects for you indie movie. Maybe how you rigged and animated in messiah, baked the motion?, used LW for rendering, Sasquatch for fur, etc... I'd pay good money for that.:)
P.S. I'm still trying to convince my fiancee for us to see "Master and Commander" instead of that Julia Robert's movie this weekend :scream:
I'll jump right on board and beg for these tools too, just as soon as I see something that can't easily be done with the existing tools. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, I'm just saying to get a better understanding of the extreme power of what's already there. It might not look like what you're expecting (the OpenGL representations of the muscles), and it might not have the fancy name you're expecting, but it does what's needed.
Fred
I remember seeing the same muscle layers on the "making of" Shrek as well and I thought - "wow, that sure is a lot of R&D for those characters". I'd have to agree - seems a bit much for the final result.
I believe the thread started out by someone asking if messiah could do the skin-sliding-over-muscle effect. I'm kinda new to the whole animation thing and I've just started to learn messiah - (only had it for a few weeks). So, I'm not quite familiar with it's powerful toolset. I'm just figuring things out as I go along - like scaling only one axis of a Spherize Null. Other more experienced users (grzesiekj) do have familiarity with the toolset and have, indeed, confirmed what you're saying - that it is possible to achieve this effect with the existing toolset (save for a few minor things). So, in essence, I believe the original thread starter was just asking if this was possible and it seems it is. Now if someone can do a little tutorial on this effect ... I'd be pleased as punch.
Fred, that is an awesome rig for the Sasquatch ape creature - did you model and rig the creature? Have you thought about doing a "making of" type tutorial on the CG effects for you indie movie. Maybe how you rigged and animated in messiah, baked the motion?, used LW for rendering, Sasquatch for fur, etc... I'd pay good money for that.:)
P.S. I'm still trying to convince my fiancee for us to see "Master and Commander" instead of that Julia Robert's movie this weekend :scream:
fwtep
11-22-2003, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by chikega
Fred, that is an awesome rig for the Sasquatch ape creature - did you model and rig the creature? Have you thought about doing a "making of" type tutorial on the CG effects for you indie movie. Maybe how you rigged and animated in messiah, baked the motion?, used LW for rendering, Sasquatch for fur, etc... I'd pay good money for that.:)
P.S. I'm still trying to convince my fiancee for us to see "Master and Commander" instead of that Julia Robert's movie this weekend :scream:
You mean "Mona Lisa Smile"? I thought that opens in December. So go see M&C first. :)
As for the Bigfoot model and rig, my work on that particular animation consisted of moving the sliders. :) Taron modeled it and Ron did the rig. And the motion isn't baked, it's a live connection (embedded scene) between messiah and LW.
Depending on the distribution deal, I'm hoping to do a "making of" for the DVD and possibly a magazine article. I've still got a handful of FX to do, plus the composer is now back on board, having just finished "Starship Troopers 2". So it'll be ready to shop around some time after the new year. Hollywood pretty much shuts down for December, so I'm not going to kill myself to get it done at some ridiculous pace.
Fred
Fred, that is an awesome rig for the Sasquatch ape creature - did you model and rig the creature? Have you thought about doing a "making of" type tutorial on the CG effects for you indie movie. Maybe how you rigged and animated in messiah, baked the motion?, used LW for rendering, Sasquatch for fur, etc... I'd pay good money for that.:)
P.S. I'm still trying to convince my fiancee for us to see "Master and Commander" instead of that Julia Robert's movie this weekend :scream:
You mean "Mona Lisa Smile"? I thought that opens in December. So go see M&C first. :)
As for the Bigfoot model and rig, my work on that particular animation consisted of moving the sliders. :) Taron modeled it and Ron did the rig. And the motion isn't baked, it's a live connection (embedded scene) between messiah and LW.
Depending on the distribution deal, I'm hoping to do a "making of" for the DVD and possibly a magazine article. I've still got a handful of FX to do, plus the composer is now back on board, having just finished "Starship Troopers 2". So it'll be ready to shop around some time after the new year. Hollywood pretty much shuts down for December, so I'm not going to kill myself to get it done at some ridiculous pace.
Fred
grzesiekj
11-22-2003, 07:10 AM
http://www.3dluvr.com/2UdF1069484742p/jonkajtys/facial_muscles.mov
here is the direct link.
:)
grzesiek
here is the direct link.
:)
grzesiek
lmilton
11-22-2003, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by chikega
Wow, Lyle, that did the trick. I guess I was stumped b/c there wasn't anything indicating the ability to scale on the graphical Edit Sphere - it's labeled HPB with S in the middle - so, it led me to believe it scaled only on all axes uniformly.
I continued playing around and happened upon the Mini-slider in SZ Scale field and wouldn't you know it, I could scale along one axis interactively and give it a cigar shape. messiah is full of surprises :).
If that's new to you, then you're missing out on one of messiah's basic channel editing features.
Do you see the round controls between the channel selectors & channel values on the Motion block? That control not only allows you to include/exclude channels for keys, it also allows you to hide/show channels.
You can hide/show channels by right clicking on the channel modifier . This will not only hide/show the channel on the editsphere or slider, it will also affect the channels' visibility in the item list.
This feature is useful in that it allows the TD to show only those channels that an artist should animate. And since it's least common that you'll be animating the scale channels, they are hidden by default.
BTW, middle-clicking on that control allows you to determine if the channel will have a static value or be animatable.
I believe the manual covers channel modification very thoroughly, so you might want to take a second look.
-lyle
ps: yes, you can add a sphere as a child of the Null (not the effect) for a visual respresentation of the field.
Wow, Lyle, that did the trick. I guess I was stumped b/c there wasn't anything indicating the ability to scale on the graphical Edit Sphere - it's labeled HPB with S in the middle - so, it led me to believe it scaled only on all axes uniformly.
I continued playing around and happened upon the Mini-slider in SZ Scale field and wouldn't you know it, I could scale along one axis interactively and give it a cigar shape. messiah is full of surprises :).
If that's new to you, then you're missing out on one of messiah's basic channel editing features.
Do you see the round controls between the channel selectors & channel values on the Motion block? That control not only allows you to include/exclude channels for keys, it also allows you to hide/show channels.
You can hide/show channels by right clicking on the channel modifier . This will not only hide/show the channel on the editsphere or slider, it will also affect the channels' visibility in the item list.
This feature is useful in that it allows the TD to show only those channels that an artist should animate. And since it's least common that you'll be animating the scale channels, they are hidden by default.
BTW, middle-clicking on that control allows you to determine if the channel will have a static value or be animatable.
I believe the manual covers channel modification very thoroughly, so you might want to take a second look.
-lyle
ps: yes, you can add a sphere as a child of the Null (not the effect) for a visual respresentation of the field.
Carm3D
11-22-2003, 07:18 AM
grzesiekj,
I am still learning to use MetaEffector-style weighting.. I have a question about the expressions animation you just posted.
It looks like you have more than one area defined by a meta-effector group. Do you have all these different bones using the same meta effector weight group? Does bone influence from one area bleed into another area?
Thanks.
I am still learning to use MetaEffector-style weighting.. I have a question about the expressions animation you just posted.
It looks like you have more than one area defined by a meta-effector group. Do you have all these different bones using the same meta effector weight group? Does bone influence from one area bleed into another area?
Thanks.
grzesiekj
11-22-2003, 07:32 AM
Hi:)
My effectors dont influence bones....
they are weights of TWO bloat effects.
one positive and one negative.
The effectors are parented to the bones, but they are used by "bloat" effect.
and there are NO expressions in this example...
the command list is empty....
it is really pretty easy setup.
all straight forward:
here is the bone rig:
http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/kobitka_kosci.jpg
Best
g.jonkajtys
My effectors dont influence bones....
they are weights of TWO bloat effects.
one positive and one negative.
The effectors are parented to the bones, but they are used by "bloat" effect.
and there are NO expressions in this example...
the command list is empty....
it is really pretty easy setup.
all straight forward:
here is the bone rig:
http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/kobitka_kosci.jpg
Best
g.jonkajtys
dobermunk
11-22-2003, 10:39 AM
Okay, not the best graphic, but :
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/pmG_boneSlippage.gif
testing the difference between bloat and spherize on the shoulder of a cat, where slippage seems particularly desired.
Both effects are parented (mega-fast test scene) to the shoulder bone. It seems to me that bloat deformation looks more like the skin slipping over a bone beneath it, which kind of surprised me.
Anyway, I'm sure with some tweaking (and some real td abilities) this would work really well.
http://www.stickman.de/content/temp/pmG_boneSlippage.gif
testing the difference between bloat and spherize on the shoulder of a cat, where slippage seems particularly desired.
Both effects are parented (mega-fast test scene) to the shoulder bone. It seems to me that bloat deformation looks more like the skin slipping over a bone beneath it, which kind of surprised me.
Anyway, I'm sure with some tweaking (and some real td abilities) this would work really well.
chikega
11-22-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by lmilton
If that's new to you, then you're missing out on one of messiah's basic channel editing features.
Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers!:eek: This is good stuff Lyle.
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Spherize.jpg
Still plodding through the manual....
If that's new to you, then you're missing out on one of messiah's basic channel editing features.
Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers!:eek: This is good stuff Lyle.
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Spherize.jpg
Still plodding through the manual....
chikega
11-22-2003, 05:08 PM
grzesiekj: I have the image of the alien female as my desktop - I like it that much! The direct link did the trick, thanks. It looks like the forehead rigging is coming along nicely - very very nice deformations. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with great visuals. I'm axiously looking forward to the rest of the rigging tutorial.
dobermunk: Thanks for posting the GIF showing your testing between bloat and spherize. That is so cool ... you could even maybe flatten the sphere to get a disk-like shape to more closely replicate the shape of the scapula. Ahhh ... the possiblities.
Well, this has turned out to be one of the most exciting threads in a while. messiah has so much power "under the hood" and I think that may be part of problem when new users or casual observers come by this forum or cruise the main pmG website and ask whether this or that can be done in messiah. When I show my fellow XSI medical animator these effects he says repeatedly "Well, you'd never know that from their website". I believe the older website had more visual examples, animated GIF's, that got potential users excited about the possibilities. The videos are nice (thanks, Fred, for all the hard work) - but some people can't download a lot of large files. messiah is "one of Hollywood's best kept secrets" - but it seems only the hard core users know how powerful it is, but the casual observer may not. I think showing examples (flash and/or animated GIF's) like the spherize, metaeffector, bloat effects or a combination thereof would knock peoples socks off. As the old advertising adage goes "You sell the sizzle, not the steak." I only say this because I want messiah to succeed even more than it has.
:)
dobermunk: Thanks for posting the GIF showing your testing between bloat and spherize. That is so cool ... you could even maybe flatten the sphere to get a disk-like shape to more closely replicate the shape of the scapula. Ahhh ... the possiblities.
Well, this has turned out to be one of the most exciting threads in a while. messiah has so much power "under the hood" and I think that may be part of problem when new users or casual observers come by this forum or cruise the main pmG website and ask whether this or that can be done in messiah. When I show my fellow XSI medical animator these effects he says repeatedly "Well, you'd never know that from their website". I believe the older website had more visual examples, animated GIF's, that got potential users excited about the possibilities. The videos are nice (thanks, Fred, for all the hard work) - but some people can't download a lot of large files. messiah is "one of Hollywood's best kept secrets" - but it seems only the hard core users know how powerful it is, but the casual observer may not. I think showing examples (flash and/or animated GIF's) like the spherize, metaeffector, bloat effects or a combination thereof would knock peoples socks off. As the old advertising adage goes "You sell the sizzle, not the steak." I only say this because I want messiah to succeed even more than it has.
:)
Zithen
11-22-2003, 06:13 PM
I agree you don't need a muscle system to make the animation work. But subtle secondary action, like skin/flesh dynamics does make it seem more special or less cartoon like to me. But I think if soft body dynamics in messiah were more complete, say self-collision for example, then you would be able to get those dynamic effects if you wanted to. My wish if for the soft bodies to be all set.
lmilton
11-22-2003, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by chikega
Well, this has turned out to be one of the most exciting threads in a while. messiah has so much power "under the hood" and I think that may be part of problem when new users or casual observers come by this forum or cruise the main pmG website and ask whether this or that can be done in messiah. When I show my fellow XSI medical animator these effects he says repeatedly "Well, you'd never know that from their website". I believe the older website had more visual examples, animated GIF's, that got potential users excited about the possibilities. The videos are nice (thanks, Fred, for all the hard work) - but some people can't download a lot of large files. messiah is "one of Hollywood's best kept secrets" - but it seems only the hard core users know how powerful it is, but the casual observer may not. I think showing examples (flash and/or animated GIF's) like the spherize, metaeffector, bloat effects or a combination thereof would knock peoples socks off. As the old advertising adage goes "You sell the sizzle, not the steak." I only say this because I want messiah to succeed even more than it has.
:)
Hi, chikega:
We don't take offense to your comments, we realize you're only trying to help:)
We're well aware of the fact that we don't have enough info on our site regarding messiah's more advanced functionality. Much of the problem stems from the very design of messiah, itself. There isn't much you can learn about the power of the program just by looking at it.
The interface is intentionally unobtrusive, modest, and artist-centric. But almost paradoxically, with its discipline-based structure (i.e. Animate, Setup, etc.), messiah is perfectly designed for studios. But if you're used to programs that tend to keep most the features "in-your-face", there's no way for you to really appreciate messiah unless you work with it for a little while.
If you're used to most other apps, I can see why you would think that messiah's features are "hidden". Another intentional aspect of the interface/architecture is that you won't find, say, a "Make Sliding Skin" button anywhere in the program. messiah isn't designed to provide a button for every effect. It's designed as a free-flowing, highly generalized effect design system and as such, it is literally impossible for us to provide info on every possible combination of features. The exploration alone would limit the time & focus on writing docs, updating the site, and programming.
The other side of this problem is the fact that we haven't had solid relationships with studios in the past, simply because we didn't have the resources. Our focus has always been on helping artists/TDs solve problems and improving their workflow. While normally this would be considered a good thing, the downside is that we rely on the artists to decide when to share the result of their messiah work with us. Because of this, even though there is a lot of messiah work going on, we don't often get much data. I suppose our tools & support tend to get taken for granted... but then again, we believe that's the way it's *supposed* to be:)
Are you wrong to expect the same level of site info/docs from us that you get from, say, Avid or Alias? Of course not! However, it's not entirely realistic, given the circumstances. Maybe if we had the resources of those companies we would be in a position to have a more expansive site, more extensive docs, ubiquitous ads, and maybe then studios would be more eager to share images/content.
However, as it stands right now, we are still a *very little company* that makes *very big products*; and, you can imagine that it already takes a monumental effort on our part. But since artists and studios have been delving deaper into messiah and discovering the power of the tools, we've definately been gaining ground. So, it's quite possible that this situation will change for the better in the coming months.
I hope that at least sheds a little light. Thanx for your support, chikega:thumbsup:
-lyle
ps: yeah we really *are* one of Hollywood's best kept secrets... but the cat is starting to scratch his way out of the bag;})
Well, this has turned out to be one of the most exciting threads in a while. messiah has so much power "under the hood" and I think that may be part of problem when new users or casual observers come by this forum or cruise the main pmG website and ask whether this or that can be done in messiah. When I show my fellow XSI medical animator these effects he says repeatedly "Well, you'd never know that from their website". I believe the older website had more visual examples, animated GIF's, that got potential users excited about the possibilities. The videos are nice (thanks, Fred, for all the hard work) - but some people can't download a lot of large files. messiah is "one of Hollywood's best kept secrets" - but it seems only the hard core users know how powerful it is, but the casual observer may not. I think showing examples (flash and/or animated GIF's) like the spherize, metaeffector, bloat effects or a combination thereof would knock peoples socks off. As the old advertising adage goes "You sell the sizzle, not the steak." I only say this because I want messiah to succeed even more than it has.
:)
Hi, chikega:
We don't take offense to your comments, we realize you're only trying to help:)
We're well aware of the fact that we don't have enough info on our site regarding messiah's more advanced functionality. Much of the problem stems from the very design of messiah, itself. There isn't much you can learn about the power of the program just by looking at it.
The interface is intentionally unobtrusive, modest, and artist-centric. But almost paradoxically, with its discipline-based structure (i.e. Animate, Setup, etc.), messiah is perfectly designed for studios. But if you're used to programs that tend to keep most the features "in-your-face", there's no way for you to really appreciate messiah unless you work with it for a little while.
If you're used to most other apps, I can see why you would think that messiah's features are "hidden". Another intentional aspect of the interface/architecture is that you won't find, say, a "Make Sliding Skin" button anywhere in the program. messiah isn't designed to provide a button for every effect. It's designed as a free-flowing, highly generalized effect design system and as such, it is literally impossible for us to provide info on every possible combination of features. The exploration alone would limit the time & focus on writing docs, updating the site, and programming.
The other side of this problem is the fact that we haven't had solid relationships with studios in the past, simply because we didn't have the resources. Our focus has always been on helping artists/TDs solve problems and improving their workflow. While normally this would be considered a good thing, the downside is that we rely on the artists to decide when to share the result of their messiah work with us. Because of this, even though there is a lot of messiah work going on, we don't often get much data. I suppose our tools & support tend to get taken for granted... but then again, we believe that's the way it's *supposed* to be:)
Are you wrong to expect the same level of site info/docs from us that you get from, say, Avid or Alias? Of course not! However, it's not entirely realistic, given the circumstances. Maybe if we had the resources of those companies we would be in a position to have a more expansive site, more extensive docs, ubiquitous ads, and maybe then studios would be more eager to share images/content.
However, as it stands right now, we are still a *very little company* that makes *very big products*; and, you can imagine that it already takes a monumental effort on our part. But since artists and studios have been delving deaper into messiah and discovering the power of the tools, we've definately been gaining ground. So, it's quite possible that this situation will change for the better in the coming months.
I hope that at least sheds a little light. Thanx for your support, chikega:thumbsup:
-lyle
ps: yeah we really *are* one of Hollywood's best kept secrets... but the cat is starting to scratch his way out of the bag;})
lmilton
11-22-2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Zithen
I agree you don't need a muscle system to make the animation work. But subtle secondary action, like skin/flesh dynamics does make it seem more special or less cartoon like to me. But I think if soft body dynamics in messiah were more complete, say self-collision for example, then you would be able to get those dynamic effects if you wanted to. My wish if for the soft bodies to be all set.
I'm curious as to why you think you would need self collision for this sort of thing.:shrug: Also, what about softbody makes you think it's not "all set"? Are you talking about self-collision only, or are there some other specifics?
-lyle
I agree you don't need a muscle system to make the animation work. But subtle secondary action, like skin/flesh dynamics does make it seem more special or less cartoon like to me. But I think if soft body dynamics in messiah were more complete, say self-collision for example, then you would be able to get those dynamic effects if you wanted to. My wish if for the soft bodies to be all set.
I'm curious as to why you think you would need self collision for this sort of thing.:shrug: Also, what about softbody makes you think it's not "all set"? Are you talking about self-collision only, or are there some other specifics?
-lyle
Sil3
11-22-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by lmilton
I'm curious as to why you think you would need self collision for this sort of thing.:shrug: Also, what about softbody makes you think it's not "all set"? Are you talking about self-collision only, or are there some other specifics?
-lyle
I think he was refering to having colision objects inside the mesh, the mesh would then be affected with SB, so they would colide with those colision objects giving that skin slide appearance.
This is what ILM and others do/did, but itīs not a simple process, dont think itīs just applying some sort of SB to the mesh and expecting nice results everytime.
I'm curious as to why you think you would need self collision for this sort of thing.:shrug: Also, what about softbody makes you think it's not "all set"? Are you talking about self-collision only, or are there some other specifics?
-lyle
I think he was refering to having colision objects inside the mesh, the mesh would then be affected with SB, so they would colide with those colision objects giving that skin slide appearance.
This is what ILM and others do/did, but itīs not a simple process, dont think itīs just applying some sort of SB to the mesh and expecting nice results everytime.
lmilton
11-22-2003, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Sil3
I think he was refering to having colision objects inside the mesh, the mesh would then be affected with SB, so they would colide with those colision objects giving that skin slide appearance.
This is what ILM and others do/did, but itīs not a simple process, dont think itīs just applying some sort of SB to the mesh and expecting nice results everytime.
Considering that this doesn't require *self collision* I still don't see how it applies :shrug: Further, our softbody feature already supports collision objects. I believe there are examples in the content that demonstrate this. Am I missing something...
-lyle
I think he was refering to having colision objects inside the mesh, the mesh would then be affected with SB, so they would colide with those colision objects giving that skin slide appearance.
This is what ILM and others do/did, but itīs not a simple process, dont think itīs just applying some sort of SB to the mesh and expecting nice results everytime.
Considering that this doesn't require *self collision* I still don't see how it applies :shrug: Further, our softbody feature already supports collision objects. I believe there are examples in the content that demonstrate this. Am I missing something...
-lyle
Zithen
11-22-2003, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by lmilton
I'm curious as to why you think you would need self collision for this sort of thing.:shrug: Also, what about softbody makes you think it's not "all set"? Are you talking about self-collision only, or are there some other specifics?
-lyle
Self-collision specifically. The last time I remember using it, the time-step parameter did not enhance the simulation as you increased the value, which is what should be the case. Also, it would be nice if you could have a dampen parameter for "only" the Hold springs. But that's more a wish.
About how self-collision would be useful in this case, say you have a leg or arm that bends, the mesh would not pass through itself at the joints, thus creating a very convincing skin that would collide, push and/or fold on itself. Or if you have a character with a fatty belly and the thigh lifts up to it, it would push the belly realistically. Though you can use bloat and meteffectors to do something like it, the effect is not as convincing as dynamics, of course. I can think of many other uses, but certainly at the joints or other body parts that are very loose, like ears, appendages and other fatty parts, that would benifit from self-collsion.
But beside that, w/out self-collision I can't do cloth sim like I really want to. I'm forced to go to LW for that, which isn't cool.
I'm curious as to why you think you would need self collision for this sort of thing.:shrug: Also, what about softbody makes you think it's not "all set"? Are you talking about self-collision only, or are there some other specifics?
-lyle
Self-collision specifically. The last time I remember using it, the time-step parameter did not enhance the simulation as you increased the value, which is what should be the case. Also, it would be nice if you could have a dampen parameter for "only" the Hold springs. But that's more a wish.
About how self-collision would be useful in this case, say you have a leg or arm that bends, the mesh would not pass through itself at the joints, thus creating a very convincing skin that would collide, push and/or fold on itself. Or if you have a character with a fatty belly and the thigh lifts up to it, it would push the belly realistically. Though you can use bloat and meteffectors to do something like it, the effect is not as convincing as dynamics, of course. I can think of many other uses, but certainly at the joints or other body parts that are very loose, like ears, appendages and other fatty parts, that would benifit from self-collsion.
But beside that, w/out self-collision I can't do cloth sim like I really want to. I'm forced to go to LW for that, which isn't cool.
Andy741
11-23-2003, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by fwtep
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I still haven't seen anything here or elsewhere that shows a need for any muscle tool that doesn't already exist in messiah. There already are muscle bones and Flex and Flexmotion.
This thing, which is also on the web site, doesn't use MetaEffectors or anything super fancy. It's just bones and muscle bones, with all settings at their defaults.
http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/images/LucyFace_With_Bones_04.gif
I remember when "Antz" came out and one of the "making of's" showed them doing all sorts of muscles over bones stuff, but the final effect looked no different than just using bones/muscle bones (as above) or morphs.
I'll jump right on board and beg for these tools too, just as soon as I see something that can't easily be done with the existing tools. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, I'm just saying to get a better understanding of the extreme power of what's already there. It might not look like what you're expecting (the OpenGL representations of the muscles), and it might not have the fancy name you're expecting, but it does what's needed.
Fred
Okay, maybe it's hard to appreciate what's happening from that particular animation.
I think this one may illustrate more simply what's going on that I want:
www.cgcharacter.com/downloads/ACT_Eye_sample_C.avi
The eyeball underneath the skin is like collision detecting with the skin and that's what is driving the outer movement that makes one's jaw drop. See how the eyeball isn't a perfect sphere and the skin is reacting to that?
Now back to regular muscle simulation: For messiah to do this I think you would need to model muscles that squash and stretch for the concentric and eccentric movement as the bones are moved. Then you would have like a single mesh skin somehow wrapped around all the muscles and the mesh skin collision detects with the muscles. Does that make sense? Can messiah do that? I am rooting for messiah.
Maybe to get the skin to not fall off the body, you could have like some kind of gravity for the skin affected by the normals of the muscle's polygons.
It's kind of a subtle thing, but it makes such a huge difference to me. Am I the only one seeing that?
It's almost like a cloth simulation of like thick spandex with a lubricant inside.
Now with the ACT cgcharacter muscles, they don't collision detect with muscles reacting to the other muscles, but only the muscles reacting with the skin so the muscles intersect eachother.
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I still haven't seen anything here or elsewhere that shows a need for any muscle tool that doesn't already exist in messiah. There already are muscle bones and Flex and Flexmotion.
This thing, which is also on the web site, doesn't use MetaEffectors or anything super fancy. It's just bones and muscle bones, with all settings at their defaults.
http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/images/LucyFace_With_Bones_04.gif
I remember when "Antz" came out and one of the "making of's" showed them doing all sorts of muscles over bones stuff, but the final effect looked no different than just using bones/muscle bones (as above) or morphs.
I'll jump right on board and beg for these tools too, just as soon as I see something that can't easily be done with the existing tools. I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, I'm just saying to get a better understanding of the extreme power of what's already there. It might not look like what you're expecting (the OpenGL representations of the muscles), and it might not have the fancy name you're expecting, but it does what's needed.
Fred
Okay, maybe it's hard to appreciate what's happening from that particular animation.
I think this one may illustrate more simply what's going on that I want:
www.cgcharacter.com/downloads/ACT_Eye_sample_C.avi
The eyeball underneath the skin is like collision detecting with the skin and that's what is driving the outer movement that makes one's jaw drop. See how the eyeball isn't a perfect sphere and the skin is reacting to that?
Now back to regular muscle simulation: For messiah to do this I think you would need to model muscles that squash and stretch for the concentric and eccentric movement as the bones are moved. Then you would have like a single mesh skin somehow wrapped around all the muscles and the mesh skin collision detects with the muscles. Does that make sense? Can messiah do that? I am rooting for messiah.
Maybe to get the skin to not fall off the body, you could have like some kind of gravity for the skin affected by the normals of the muscle's polygons.
It's kind of a subtle thing, but it makes such a huge difference to me. Am I the only one seeing that?
It's almost like a cloth simulation of like thick spandex with a lubricant inside.
Now with the ACT cgcharacter muscles, they don't collision detect with muscles reacting to the other muscles, but only the muscles reacting with the skin so the muscles intersect eachother.
dobermunk
11-23-2003, 10:16 AM
Andy, you have to check out Taron's facial rigs. He's got much better 'under-eyelid-eyeball' stuff going than that. He did it in 1.5 using bones and stretching the model geometry, but now does it with spherize.
Really, looks much smoother than that sample.
Fred - where is that mouthy guy on the site? Haven't seen that.
Is that from you? If so, I'd love to pick your brains about the lower jaw/lower lip configuration.
Really, looks much smoother than that sample.
Fred - where is that mouthy guy on the site? Haven't seen that.
Is that from you? If so, I'd love to pick your brains about the lower jaw/lower lip configuration.
IanBlackford
11-23-2003, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by dobermunk
Andy, you have to check out Taron's facial rigs. He's got much better 'under-eyelid-eyeball' stuff going than that. He did it in 1.5 using bones and stretching the model geometry, but now does it with spherize.
Really, looks much smoother than that sample.
Fred - where is that mouthy guy on the site? Haven't seen that.
Is that from you? If so, I'd love to pick your brains about the lower jaw/lower lip configuration.
hiya dobermunk :)
the pic fred included is off of the pmG site here (http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/messiahanimate.htm) the fourth pic down or so...
looks great eh? i like the lil bones for the nostrels too :D fantastic stuff
hope that helped
monsieurblack
Andy, you have to check out Taron's facial rigs. He's got much better 'under-eyelid-eyeball' stuff going than that. He did it in 1.5 using bones and stretching the model geometry, but now does it with spherize.
Really, looks much smoother than that sample.
Fred - where is that mouthy guy on the site? Haven't seen that.
Is that from you? If so, I'd love to pick your brains about the lower jaw/lower lip configuration.
hiya dobermunk :)
the pic fred included is off of the pmG site here (http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/messiahanimate.htm) the fourth pic down or so...
looks great eh? i like the lil bones for the nostrels too :D fantastic stuff
hope that helped
monsieurblack
dobermunk
11-23-2003, 10:49 AM
Thank you, monieurblack! (spoken in faux French, of course ;-)
So that's Ron's rig. I'll shoot him a question or two.
So that's Ron's rig. I'll shoot him a question or two.
IanBlackford
11-23-2003, 11:07 AM
lol :D
no probs matey
i'll hopefully be posting here more often soon as i'll be buying :studio soon :deal:...and i'll be picking all your brains with really simple stuff! he he
threads like these are so interesting for peeps like me who are just getting into messiah [and animation in general! :eek::blush:]
thanks everyone!
monsieurblack
no probs matey
i'll hopefully be posting here more often soon as i'll be buying :studio soon :deal:...and i'll be picking all your brains with really simple stuff! he he
threads like these are so interesting for peeps like me who are just getting into messiah [and animation in general! :eek::blush:]
thanks everyone!
monsieurblack
dobermunk
11-23-2003, 11:14 AM
Well, I will humbly depart with what I know. Unfortunately - I'm no clever rig-master. And I haven't done anything with the renderer, yet :cry:
But I'm working on it. And of course: There are lots o' talented folk here!
But I'm working on it. And of course: There are lots o' talented folk here!
IanBlackford
11-23-2003, 11:39 AM
yup :)
there certainly are many talented folk here :thumbsup:
the renderer does interest me. i'll be using wings3d for modeling and then messiah for the rest [i hope! lol] obviously getting to grips with the rendering stuff at a later date...so i have a lot of learning ahead of me but its what i want so i'll keep at it. i've ordered joes cd's and got a card through my door yesterday from the post office saying that basically they're not gonna deliver it until i've paid the import customs charges [doh] they're holding my training/educational cd's to ransom!!! he he. so i'll collect those as soon as and get cracking.
the messiah community seems a great one to be part of. and like many others, one of the main reasons that has swung it in messiahs favour is the fact that lyle and the rest of the team are so 'available' and willing to help. its definately a breath of fresh air and the yahoo group is superb too.
[oh, and lyle et al...feel free to email me any new messiah announcements, like new version releases etc and i'll make sure i post it front page of www.3DBuZZ.com for you...]
onward and upward
monsieurblack
there certainly are many talented folk here :thumbsup:
the renderer does interest me. i'll be using wings3d for modeling and then messiah for the rest [i hope! lol] obviously getting to grips with the rendering stuff at a later date...so i have a lot of learning ahead of me but its what i want so i'll keep at it. i've ordered joes cd's and got a card through my door yesterday from the post office saying that basically they're not gonna deliver it until i've paid the import customs charges [doh] they're holding my training/educational cd's to ransom!!! he he. so i'll collect those as soon as and get cracking.
the messiah community seems a great one to be part of. and like many others, one of the main reasons that has swung it in messiahs favour is the fact that lyle and the rest of the team are so 'available' and willing to help. its definately a breath of fresh air and the yahoo group is superb too.
[oh, and lyle et al...feel free to email me any new messiah announcements, like new version releases etc and i'll make sure i post it front page of www.3DBuZZ.com for you...]
onward and upward
monsieurblack
chikega
11-24-2003, 02:23 AM
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Spherize.jpg
Ok ... I thought this was pretty cool. As Joe and Lyle suggested, you can add a procedural sphere to the spherize effect to get some real-time visual feedback on just what area it's affecting. The procedural sphere is a child of the Null in this case - see image below:
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Sperize_Proc_sphere.jpg
To do this with the Bloat effect ... it's a tad different. The Bloat effect just kinda sits in the background while it's effect is being carried over to the Metaeffector it's been assigned to ... so to have a visual reference of the Bloat effect ... add a procedural sphere as a child to the MetaEffector_Effector. That's right - not the MetaEffector group, but rather the Effector. You can scale the Effector and the procedural sphere will scale down with it.
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Bloat_Proc_sphere.jpg
I've posted this in the Tips 'n Tricks column.:)
Ok ... I thought this was pretty cool. As Joe and Lyle suggested, you can add a procedural sphere to the spherize effect to get some real-time visual feedback on just what area it's affecting. The procedural sphere is a child of the Null in this case - see image below:
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Sperize_Proc_sphere.jpg
To do this with the Bloat effect ... it's a tad different. The Bloat effect just kinda sits in the background while it's effect is being carried over to the Metaeffector it's been assigned to ... so to have a visual reference of the Bloat effect ... add a procedural sphere as a child to the MetaEffector_Effector. That's right - not the MetaEffector group, but rather the Effector. You can scale the Effector and the procedural sphere will scale down with it.
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Bloat_Proc_sphere.jpg
I've posted this in the Tips 'n Tricks column.:)
Andy741
11-24-2003, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by dobermunk
Andy, you have to check out Taron's facial rigs. He's got much better 'under-eyelid-eyeball' stuff going than that. He did it in 1.5 using bones and stretching the model geometry, but now does it with spherize.
Really, looks much smoother than that sample.
Fred - where is that mouthy guy on the site? Haven't seen that.
Is that from you? If so, I'd love to pick your brains about the lower jaw/lower lip configuration.
I should say I was using the eye example to try and convey what I'm looking for in creating a look of muscle sliding under the skin that the ACT tools do.
I've seen Taron's face animation on the projectmessiah website (the guy that likes to scare dogs), but it sounds like you're talking about something more recent. It looks like his personal website is under construction at the moment.
The gorilla face animation that Fred showed is really cool, but it doesn't show what I'm looking for.
I know Lyle said that there's no button for a muscle-sliding-under-skin simulation, but can messiah do it by combining some of its tools? Sorry if I'm not explaining things clearly as to what I'm looking for. I think it's hard to explain cause it's like a subtle thing maybe?
Andy, you have to check out Taron's facial rigs. He's got much better 'under-eyelid-eyeball' stuff going than that. He did it in 1.5 using bones and stretching the model geometry, but now does it with spherize.
Really, looks much smoother than that sample.
Fred - where is that mouthy guy on the site? Haven't seen that.
Is that from you? If so, I'd love to pick your brains about the lower jaw/lower lip configuration.
I should say I was using the eye example to try and convey what I'm looking for in creating a look of muscle sliding under the skin that the ACT tools do.
I've seen Taron's face animation on the projectmessiah website (the guy that likes to scare dogs), but it sounds like you're talking about something more recent. It looks like his personal website is under construction at the moment.
The gorilla face animation that Fred showed is really cool, but it doesn't show what I'm looking for.
I know Lyle said that there's no button for a muscle-sliding-under-skin simulation, but can messiah do it by combining some of its tools? Sorry if I'm not explaining things clearly as to what I'm looking for. I think it's hard to explain cause it's like a subtle thing maybe?
grzesiekj
11-24-2003, 05:05 AM
"I know Lyle said that there's no button for a muscle-sliding-under-skin simulation, but can messiah do it by combining some of its tools?"
YES IT CAN!!!!
by combining spherize/bloat/metaeffectors - dynamic weights.
:)
YES IT CAN!!!!
by combining spherize/bloat/metaeffectors - dynamic weights.
:)
dobermunk
11-24-2003, 08:05 AM
Unfortunately, I'm strapped for time right now, but there may be a video of Taron's work on the messiah site - the devlish guy with two jester-like flaps on his head. The eye movement has always impressed me - for exactly the same reason you mention.
I'm a poor TD and more into cartoonish stuff anyway, but I feel confident that the available tools - muscle bones, spherize, and morph targets are capable of this.
I'm a poor TD and more into cartoonish stuff anyway, but I feel confident that the available tools - muscle bones, spherize, and morph targets are capable of this.
maks
11-24-2003, 12:23 PM
The file with the eye sliding under the eyelid, as well as with an example of motiondynamics in conjunction with bones and muscle bones is called mask.mpj, and it's located in the messiah_content\Projects folder. Take a look, it's a nice example of what you're after.
M.
M.
Andy741
11-24-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by grzesiekj
"I know Lyle said that there's no button for a muscle-sliding-under-skin simulation, but can messiah do it by combining some of its tools?"
YES IT CAN!!!!
by combining spherize/bloat/metaeffectors - dynamic weights.
:)
Cool! any vids that would show it? maybe something like this? www.cgcharacter.com/downloads/cgskin_dinodisp.avi See how the skin slides over his throat when the throat wobbles back and forth?
"I know Lyle said that there's no button for a muscle-sliding-under-skin simulation, but can messiah do it by combining some of its tools?"
YES IT CAN!!!!
by combining spherize/bloat/metaeffectors - dynamic weights.
:)
Cool! any vids that would show it? maybe something like this? www.cgcharacter.com/downloads/cgskin_dinodisp.avi See how the skin slides over his throat when the throat wobbles back and forth?
maks
11-24-2003, 07:06 PM
I think that this could be pretty easily done with a chain of (muscle)bones, or a curve, controlled by motiondynamics, and some spherize effects parented to these bones, that make the skin slide over the wobbling bones...
M.
M.
grzesiekj
11-24-2003, 07:28 PM
the skin on this lizard creature looks like it had the jiggle or softbody on it. Its not exactly the skin sliding on the muscles..
anyway, once again, here are the links to the face rig Im working on, I'm using bloat metaeffectors with bones.:
http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/alienwoman_facerig.gif
http://www.3dluvr.com/2UdF1069484742p/jonkajtys/facial_muscles.mov
Bones are "pulling" the mesh, and bloat is sliding beneath. (thanks to effector weights set to dynamic)
You can add softbody on the top of it, constrain it to weight, and get nice jiggling - exactly the same like in your lizard example.
cheers
anyway, once again, here are the links to the face rig Im working on, I'm using bloat metaeffectors with bones.:
http://www.3dluvr.com/jonkajtys/alienwoman_facerig.gif
http://www.3dluvr.com/2UdF1069484742p/jonkajtys/facial_muscles.mov
Bones are "pulling" the mesh, and bloat is sliding beneath. (thanks to effector weights set to dynamic)
You can add softbody on the top of it, constrain it to weight, and get nice jiggling - exactly the same like in your lizard example.
cheers
fwtep
11-24-2003, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Andy741
Cool! any vids that would show it? maybe something like this? www.cgcharacter.com/downloads/cgskin_dinodisp.avi See how the skin slides over his throat when the throat wobbles back and forth? That's all just basic simple stuff. Any software can do that. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to figure out a way to *not* get that effect. (Though it seems that the scaling of the throat is doing the opposite of what it should-- it's getting fatter as the neck is stretched.)
By the way, the area where the neck meets the arms is really out of whack. The skin isn't stretching at all-- it looks like the neck is compositied in over the rest of the body.
Fred
Cool! any vids that would show it? maybe something like this? www.cgcharacter.com/downloads/cgskin_dinodisp.avi See how the skin slides over his throat when the throat wobbles back and forth? That's all just basic simple stuff. Any software can do that. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to figure out a way to *not* get that effect. (Though it seems that the scaling of the throat is doing the opposite of what it should-- it's getting fatter as the neck is stretched.)
By the way, the area where the neck meets the arms is really out of whack. The skin isn't stretching at all-- it looks like the neck is compositied in over the rest of the body.
Fred
Zithen
11-24-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by fwtep
That's all just basic simple stuff. Any software can do that. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to figure out a way to *not* get that effect. (Though it seems that the scaling of the throat is doing the opposite of what it should-- it's getting fatter as the neck is stretched.)
By the way, the area where the neck meets the arms is really out of whack. The skin isn't stretching at all-- it looks like the neck is compositied in over the rest of the body.
Fred
I would agree. Though the animation with the leg, where the skin is shown moving over the bones and muscles--that's quite realistic looking to me. But I also see how that could be achieved with metaeffectors as well. Would take some time to model them and have them move right, though.
But messiah needs self-collision, in my opinion. Why have the self-collision button and not have it work? :shrug:
That's all just basic simple stuff. Any software can do that. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to figure out a way to *not* get that effect. (Though it seems that the scaling of the throat is doing the opposite of what it should-- it's getting fatter as the neck is stretched.)
By the way, the area where the neck meets the arms is really out of whack. The skin isn't stretching at all-- it looks like the neck is compositied in over the rest of the body.
Fred
I would agree. Though the animation with the leg, where the skin is shown moving over the bones and muscles--that's quite realistic looking to me. But I also see how that could be achieved with metaeffectors as well. Would take some time to model them and have them move right, though.
But messiah needs self-collision, in my opinion. Why have the self-collision button and not have it work? :shrug:
chikega
11-27-2003, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by grzesiekj
the skin on this lizard creature looks like it had the jiggle or softbody on it. Its not exactly the skin sliding on the muscles..
Here's a similar effect done in messiah using Soft body and Metaeffector. I've only had messiah a few weeks and I learned how to do this in a day. I love the Soft body effects - it's soooo much faster than LW's motion designer. No precalculations - it's real time. :)
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Demon_soft.gif
the skin on this lizard creature looks like it had the jiggle or softbody on it. Its not exactly the skin sliding on the muscles..
Here's a similar effect done in messiah using Soft body and Metaeffector. I've only had messiah a few weeks and I learned how to do this in a day. I love the Soft body effects - it's soooo much faster than LW's motion designer. No precalculations - it's real time. :)
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Demon_soft.gif
SheepFactory
11-27-2003, 05:08 AM
hey thats pretty nice man , I am rigging a chicken right now I can try the softbodies too.
Can you switch em on and off at anytime?
I would like to be able to switch between softbody and bone animation , would that be possible?
Can you switch em on and off at anytime?
I would like to be able to switch between softbody and bone animation , would that be possible?
chikega
11-27-2003, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
hey thats pretty nice man , I am rigging a chicken right now I can try the softbodies too.
Can you switch em on and off at anytime?
I would like to be able to switch between softbody and bone animation , would that be possible?
Thanks! Yep ... just click the little bypass switch and you can toggle the effect off and on at anytime even while the animation is playing:
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Soft_on.jpg
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Soft_off.jpg
:)
hey thats pretty nice man , I am rigging a chicken right now I can try the softbodies too.
Can you switch em on and off at anytime?
I would like to be able to switch between softbody and bone animation , would that be possible?
Thanks! Yep ... just click the little bypass switch and you can toggle the effect off and on at anytime even while the animation is playing:
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Soft_on.jpg
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Soft_off.jpg
:)
SheepFactory
11-27-2003, 05:45 AM
now that is cool! , is that bypass thing keyframeable?
Sil3
11-27-2003, 09:42 AM
I might be wrong but dont think so, Lyle told me that Motion Dynamics on the other hand can be controled via expressions, so maybe he can clarify this a litle bit, since MD can be used to achieve almost the same result of SB in certain situations:buttrock:
chikega
11-27-2003, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Sheep Factory
now that is cool! , is that bypass thing keyframeable?
There's a Start Time and Release Time fields where you enter when you want the softbody to activate and deactivate. I'm not sure if this would lead to any popping though. :)
now that is cool! , is that bypass thing keyframeable?
There's a Start Time and Release Time fields where you enter when you want the softbody to activate and deactivate. I'm not sure if this would lead to any popping though. :)
Julez4001
11-27-2003, 01:55 PM
You would have to make a master SLIDER that controlled Fluid density, Damping and Global weight. Theya re all set 1.000 so a master slider (just click on available slide on the SBD slider set) and create a expression that control those channels that should diminshed your SBD effects.
chikega
11-30-2003, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Julez4001
You would have to make a master SLIDER that controlled Fluid density, Damping and Global weight. Theya re all set 1.000 so a master slider (just click on available slide on the SBD slider set) and create a expression that control those channels that should diminshed your SBD effects.
Thanks, Julian - sounds like that'll allow a gradual transition in and out of soft bodies. :)
You would have to make a master SLIDER that controlled Fluid density, Damping and Global weight. Theya re all set 1.000 so a master slider (just click on available slide on the SBD slider set) and create a expression that control those channels that should diminshed your SBD effects.
Thanks, Julian - sounds like that'll allow a gradual transition in and out of soft bodies. :)
Andy741
11-30-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by chikega
Here's a similar effect done in messiah using Soft body and Metaeffector. I've only had messiah a few weeks and I learned how to do this in a day. I love the Soft body effects - it's soooo much faster than LW's motion designer. No precalculations - it's real time. :)
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Demon_soft.gif
Although this is very cool, it's not what I'm talking about. It is the texture on the skin that slides over the surface of the deformation that makes the ACT tools unique. It is hard to explain. This is the first time I've mentioned the texture so that may help explain. It's like the texture stays in place, but muscles move underneath it.
Here's a similar effect done in messiah using Soft body and Metaeffector. I've only had messiah a few weeks and I learned how to do this in a day. I love the Soft body effects - it's soooo much faster than LW's motion designer. No precalculations - it's real time. :)
http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Messiah/Demon_soft.gif
Although this is very cool, it's not what I'm talking about. It is the texture on the skin that slides over the surface of the deformation that makes the ACT tools unique. It is hard to explain. This is the first time I've mentioned the texture so that may help explain. It's like the texture stays in place, but muscles move underneath it.
chikega
11-30-2003, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Andy741
Although this is very cool, it's not what I'm talking about. It is the texture on the skin that slides over the surface of the deformation that makes the ACT tools unique. It is hard to explain. This is the first time I've mentioned the texture so that may help explain. It's like the texture stays in place, but muscles
Andy, have you downloaded the demo and looked at some of the scenes that have been referred to by others on this thread? Such as Spherize_muscles and the Mask project file by taron. I don't remember you making any comments about those. If you did, what do you think? The spheres are sliding underneath the skin in the Spherize_muscle example. The eyes are sliding and pushing the skin in the Mask example. What do you think of the examples and tests by Dobermunk and grzesiekj? The bloat effector is pushing the skin around on the shoulder of the cat. If textures were placed on any of the above examples they would obviously be displaced by the underlying muscle. Have you looked at some of the examples in the gallery - namely:
The Glass Cage
The Boxer
Andy, I believe the consensus is, and I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, that it is possible to create a similar effect. Can you use the Bloat or Spherize effect to emulate skin sliding over muscle? Yes, as it has been mentioned several times. Would it be exactly like the ACT tools - probably not. Would it be close enough in the day-in-and-day-out world of animation? Probably so. Would it take some work to rig a dinosaur with bloat/spherize effectors to emulate muscles sliding underneath skin everywhere? Definitely. Here's something to think about. Do you think that when Jurassic park was created back in '93 they had tools like ACT? I worked with Softimage3d back in '95 and I got to play with the T-rex rig/model used in the movie. The answer to that question would be a definite "nope". You have to ask yourself - what do you need the effect for? Does it have to be that accurate? Are you good at rigging? What is your budget? Is there a deadline or is this a personal project? Do you need the automation and convenience of a specialized tool like ACT to save time and money?
My suggestion, if nothing else, is to look at some of the scene files and look at the possiblities of combining some of the effects that messiah is capable of. Maybe do some experiments and tests of your own. It may click for you or it may not. I, myself, can see the potential after performing some of my own tests. But some leg work on your part may be in order so you can come to some of your own conclusions about messiah's tools and whether it will suit your needs. Most of all, have fun with it.:)
Although this is very cool, it's not what I'm talking about. It is the texture on the skin that slides over the surface of the deformation that makes the ACT tools unique. It is hard to explain. This is the first time I've mentioned the texture so that may help explain. It's like the texture stays in place, but muscles
Andy, have you downloaded the demo and looked at some of the scenes that have been referred to by others on this thread? Such as Spherize_muscles and the Mask project file by taron. I don't remember you making any comments about those. If you did, what do you think? The spheres are sliding underneath the skin in the Spherize_muscle example. The eyes are sliding and pushing the skin in the Mask example. What do you think of the examples and tests by Dobermunk and grzesiekj? The bloat effector is pushing the skin around on the shoulder of the cat. If textures were placed on any of the above examples they would obviously be displaced by the underlying muscle. Have you looked at some of the examples in the gallery - namely:
The Glass Cage
The Boxer
Andy, I believe the consensus is, and I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, that it is possible to create a similar effect. Can you use the Bloat or Spherize effect to emulate skin sliding over muscle? Yes, as it has been mentioned several times. Would it be exactly like the ACT tools - probably not. Would it be close enough in the day-in-and-day-out world of animation? Probably so. Would it take some work to rig a dinosaur with bloat/spherize effectors to emulate muscles sliding underneath skin everywhere? Definitely. Here's something to think about. Do you think that when Jurassic park was created back in '93 they had tools like ACT? I worked with Softimage3d back in '95 and I got to play with the T-rex rig/model used in the movie. The answer to that question would be a definite "nope". You have to ask yourself - what do you need the effect for? Does it have to be that accurate? Are you good at rigging? What is your budget? Is there a deadline or is this a personal project? Do you need the automation and convenience of a specialized tool like ACT to save time and money?
My suggestion, if nothing else, is to look at some of the scene files and look at the possiblities of combining some of the effects that messiah is capable of. Maybe do some experiments and tests of your own. It may click for you or it may not. I, myself, can see the potential after performing some of my own tests. But some leg work on your part may be in order so you can come to some of your own conclusions about messiah's tools and whether it will suit your needs. Most of all, have fun with it.:)
Julez4001
11-30-2003, 04:24 PM
Andy, chikega is right.
Sometime ppl get into the habit of asking for new this and that and not asking themselves how much development time goes into the application.
ACT is a plugin in itself with its own core team. Its not to taken lightly. Same with Sasquatch and other highend plugins that in themsleves took quite a while to development wothout creating the core app.
You should try the spherize_arm.fxs and reverse engineer it and see what happens. Maybe a UV distort plugin may solve the texture sliding issue which isa less of a headache than a full blown app like ACT.
Sometime ppl get into the habit of asking for new this and that and not asking themselves how much development time goes into the application.
ACT is a plugin in itself with its own core team. Its not to taken lightly. Same with Sasquatch and other highend plugins that in themsleves took quite a while to development wothout creating the core app.
You should try the spherize_arm.fxs and reverse engineer it and see what happens. Maybe a UV distort plugin may solve the texture sliding issue which isa less of a headache than a full blown app like ACT.
Andy741
11-30-2003, 10:40 PM
well, i couldn't tell anything, because a lot of the examples don't have textures.
Julez4001
12-01-2003, 12:09 AM
Do u have messiah or the demo?
What host app are u using?
What host app are u using?
Andy741
12-01-2003, 02:14 AM
sorry, I meant I couldn't tell from some of the videos that people have shown. Right now, I can't really run messiah on my computer. That's why I wanted to see a video. I'm a little ashamed of my computer.
gsuttor
12-01-2003, 06:39 AM
Seems to me all you want to see is probably one of the simplest effects in messiah. Spherize.
Here is a 78k wmv of what your looking for..
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gsuttor/muscle_under_texture.wmv
something (muscle) moving under a texture. You could also just move the texture over the spereize, either way its the same effect.
So tell me now, are you after something different still?
It seems to me you dont really know what you want enough to explain it, plenty of people here have given you advice enough for you to take the next step and actaully try it out for yourself.
Hell if you havn't got a computer that can run the messiah demo you certainly can't run any other application and dont need CAT or anything like it anyway.
Here's another where then texture is moving across the spherize effect as the effect is animating...
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gsuttor/muscle2.wmv
Now applying this to a rig is up to you. Attach the spherize to some bones, add an expression to scale/move it as the bone rotates and you have your skin over muscle effects.
Here is a 78k wmv of what your looking for..
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gsuttor/muscle_under_texture.wmv
something (muscle) moving under a texture. You could also just move the texture over the spereize, either way its the same effect.
So tell me now, are you after something different still?
It seems to me you dont really know what you want enough to explain it, plenty of people here have given you advice enough for you to take the next step and actaully try it out for yourself.
Hell if you havn't got a computer that can run the messiah demo you certainly can't run any other application and dont need CAT or anything like it anyway.
Here's another where then texture is moving across the spherize effect as the effect is animating...
http://members.optusnet.com.au/gsuttor/muscle2.wmv
Now applying this to a rig is up to you. Attach the spherize to some bones, add an expression to scale/move it as the bone rotates and you have your skin over muscle effects.
Andy741
12-02-2003, 05:38 AM
Thanks gsuttor!!! :applause:
So I could make a spherize thing into the shape of a muscle, attach it to a bone, and animate it flexing while the skin moves over it? very cool... I can see the possibilities. Can you do multiple spherize effects and bunch them together like the different muscles of a leg? and then maybe add jiggle physics to the spherize 'muscles'?
What are the possiblities for the shape of the spherize? anything u want?
So I could make a spherize thing into the shape of a muscle, attach it to a bone, and animate it flexing while the skin moves over it? very cool... I can see the possibilities. Can you do multiple spherize effects and bunch them together like the different muscles of a leg? and then maybe add jiggle physics to the spherize 'muscles'?
What are the possiblities for the shape of the spherize? anything u want?
Chewey
12-02-2003, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Andy741
snip...
What are the possiblities for the shape of the spherize? anything u want?
Sure anything you want as long as it's a sphere.
snip...
What are the possiblities for the shape of the spherize? anything u want?
Sure anything you want as long as it's a sphere.
chikega
12-02-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Chewey
Sure anything you want as long as it's a sphere.
You can also have an elongated shpere - Egg shape, cigar-like shape (see beginning of this thread)
Sure anything you want as long as it's a sphere.
You can also have an elongated shpere - Egg shape, cigar-like shape (see beginning of this thread)
Julez4001
12-02-2003, 01:59 PM
http://www.flarenova.com/spherize.jpg
Same model
Notice he curves in the muscles
Multiple spherize effects all shaped to give you nice muscle shape.
Same model
Notice he curves in the muscles
Multiple spherize effects all shaped to give you nice muscle shape.
Andy741
12-03-2003, 05:13 AM
very cool.. I'm guessing you can link the animation of the spherize effect to the angle of the bone for a sort of automatic muscle flexing.
Julez4001
12-03-2003, 01:48 PM
Yep. Power of fast expression. Just tie to a expression for the forearm.. they can thin out or bulge up!
Andy741
12-03-2003, 08:31 PM
Okay, I've concluded that m:a can do what the ACT tools can do.
Thanks to all you guys for your patience in answering my questions. =)
Thanks to all you guys for your patience in answering my questions. =)
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